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There are really three different downsides to this. First, the foreign students cross-subsidize the locals' education. There are large fixed costs to running a

There are really three different downsides to this. First, the foreign students cross-subsidize the locals' education. There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. So now the universities have fewer resources; hence cutting the newspaper funding etc. Second, the foreign students increase the schools' reputations and can collaborate with the faculty. Research is a public good. We do not have a research system so that we can think of things for nerds to do; we have it to produce valuable knowledge. In my own PhD program, the productivity of the Americans was much lower than the foreigners. That productivity led to discoveries that benefit everyone. Third, immigration: some of the foreign students would have wound up staying. We should want these people to stay here and have families. Educated people who work hard and are ambitious enough to go overseas and stay are good for the country.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago
> In my own PhD program, the productivity of the Americans was much lower than the foreigners. I think the bias has swung way too far the other way. Racism against Americans is still racism. Also, this applies mainly to undergrads (full paying students), not PhD students who are generally fully funded.
- lewis500 9y ago
  Regarding PhDs, grad international enrollment is declining. Regarding the full-paying foreign undergrads, their tuition contributes towards the costs of the university that are shared. American students, especially at middle-ranking public schools, are hurt when schools lose their funding. Regarding the "racism against Americans," there is no such race, and if there were one it would not explain research productivity. What would is the self-selection of who will go across the world to study something technical, the much better high schools in other countries, and in the mere fact that the rest of the world is a larger talent pool than the US. It is easy to think of reasons.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    > Regarding PhDs, grad international enrollment is declining. Your source on that? All the schools I’m in contact with are still as international as ever in their CS PhD departments. I’m not sure what the trends are outside of CS, but I can’t imagine they would be very different. I think you are just pulling this number out of thin air. Research is funded quite differently from undergrad programs. Sure, fewer TAships are available, but your research funding is much more detached. DARPA and NSF aren’t going to become stingy all of a sudden. > Regarding the "racism against Americans," there is no such race, and if there were one it would not explain research productivity. If I claimed (without any evidence in fact) that “Indians or Chinese are less productive than Americans” I would totally be accused of racism even though both India and China are multi-ethnic. It is especially a stupid thing to say as foreign and domestic students are pretty diverse, with slackers (or dreamers) and very focused students on both sides.
    - anxrn 9y ago
      Recent surveys do appear to support a slowdown in international graduate school enrollments ([1] summary, [2] original study). Furthermore, this trend predates the immigration policies of the current administration, and I suspect this trend has further strengthened. [1] https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/09/28/graduate-school-enrollment-grows-again-slower-rate https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/09/28/graduate-scho... [2] http://cgsnet.org/ckfinder/userfiles/files/CGS_GED16_Report_Final.pdf http://cgsnet.org/ckfinder/userfiles/files/CGS_GED16_Report_...
      - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
        Both of those state there is a slowdown in enrollment percentage (and only .9% at that), not absolute numbers. There are still more international graduate students in 2017 than in any previous year.
        anxrn 9y ago
        This might be semantics, but a slowdown means exactly that: a drop in growth rate.
- xkcd-sucks 9y ago
  You have to be crazy (e.g. addicted to the process of a research career) or clueless to start a PhD unless it figures your path to citizenship, so yeah most american PhD students are probably not the best and brightest assuming the talented crazies are a minority.
  - hyperbovine 9y ago
    Ah, the old HN trash-PhDs-and-academia meme. It’s been... minutes since I last encountered this.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    Eh. Also, Chinese are in it for the green card and Americans are in it because they just love the subject. What other gross generalizations can we come up with?
    - grad_ml 9y ago
      Welcome to Ycombinator! The land of free. PS: If you guys keep downvoting me, I guess I'll be next president of the land of free! Ha ha.
  - dang 9y ago
    Would you please not post snarky and/or unsubstantive comments here? Especially on divisive topics, where it reliably sparks flamewars. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- eastWestMath 9y ago
  I don’t know a why you’re getting downvoted. I find, at least in my department, international students don’t get the same opportunities Canadians do. There’s definitely an archetype of a CS professor who does “interdisciplinary research” with a stable of international students doing software development projects for the bio and medicine departments.
- sandworm101 9y ago
  >> Racism against Americans is still racism. "Americans" is now a race? How about Texans or Australians? If I say that I hate Australians because of their silly accents, am I now a racist? Race and national citizenship are very different concepts.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - threeseed 9y ago
    Not sure why people are downvoting this. It’s illogical to claim you can be racist against diverse countries like the USA or Australia. Pretty sure the OP is more referring to xenophobia than racism.
    - pandaman 9y ago
      race noun Definition of race for Students 1 : any one of the groups that human beings can be divided into based on shared distinctive physical traits >>> 2 : a group of individuals who share a common culture or history the English race <<< 3 : a major group of living things the human race https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/race https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/race
      - pdkl95 9y ago
        > share a common culture or history Americans do not share a common culture or history. We share a political system that is at least in theoretically based on guaranteeing the freedom to participate in whatever culture you want, that isn't limited to people of a specific historical association (either by genetics or citizenship). > the English race While England does have a history and culture that traditionally was officially established by the king, Merriam-Webster's use in this example can apply when referring to historic England, the term isn't really appropriate for modern England. However, in Merriam-Webster's defense, this mildly misleading definition might be an attrempt to keep explanations simple with references young people would know. The definition that you copied was from the "RACE Defined for Kids" section of the page. Their recommended definition at the top of the page doesn't have the same issues: 1 : a breeding stock of animals 2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b : a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics 3 a : an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species; also : a taxonomic category (such as a subspecies) representing such a group b : breed c : a category of humankind that shares certain distinctive physical traits Most of these variations refer to what we now know is genetics. Isolated groujps of a species experience genetic drift (and other effects) that create genetic features unique to each group. Eventually the differences are large enough and we call them separate species (see: Darwin and the entire field of study that followed we call modern biology). None of that applies to "Americans" as a group of people. We are famously a "melting pot" where people from very different races (again in theory) are supposed to have the freedom to "melt" together however they desire. edit: For a fun, snarky, and informative (with very impressive directing), see ContraPoints video "What is Race?" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY3lBKje46E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY3lBKje46E )
- fellellor 9y ago
  >Racism against Americans is still racism. It's unproductive to dismiss a factual claim as racist. You can simply show data that disproves the parent's claim and implicitly confirm their racist tendencies towards Americans rather than screeching "racism".
  - acover 9y ago
    > In my own PhD program, the productivity of the Americans was much lower than the foreigners. That productivity led to discoveries that benefit everyone. The original claim was an anecdote generalized to everyone. They are stereotyping millions of people based off a handful they have met. It could be true. The reverse could be true. We don't have good data. Why assume that there are differences based on background?
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    The claim wasn’t factual, it was blatantly racist. How do you fight an unfactual claim with data? How would you prove that Americans were less or more productive than foreigners? These kinds of claims are not designed to be argued with data, they are simply designed to be decisive and hurtful.
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      > The claim wasn’t factual Yes, it was. That is, it was a claim about a matter of fact. > How would you prove that Americans were less or more productive than foreigners? There's a number of possible operationalizations of productivity applicable to a Ph.D. program that are measurable and by which the issue could be addressed. Usually, the first thing to do would be to challenge the party making the dubious claim to both provide their operationalization and show data supporting the characterization. It's quite possible that after that, the result would be that it would be fair to dismiss the claim as inadequately supported (although the mere fact that a single claim asserting a difference in performance based on nationality is inadequately supported does not, in and of itself, provide more than extremely weak evidence that the claim comes from racism.)
      - 9y ago
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- kazagistar 9y ago
  I read it more like selectivity is higher for foreign students then for Americans, which would inevitably lead to such a skweed outcome. That said, I will agree with [citation needed].
pkaye 9y ago
I wonder how many of these students come primarily for the subsequent job opportunities. If they were able to come for the education but not the subsequent OPT, would they still be willing to come? I've seen the tuition some of them paying like $50k/year and not sure how they can afford it unless they are hoping for big returns afterwards.
- malloryerik 9y ago
  Very often, yes, they expect to return. For example Samsung was built to a large degree by Korean students returning to Korea from overseas programs, along with students from top local schools.
- maruhan2 9y ago
  Most students studying abroad plan to work in that country
  - netsharc 9y ago
    Source? I have a different viewpoint, a lot of people have national pride, still have a better network back home, or their parents' business, so that they actually go back to work in their home countries.
    - Bilal_io 9y ago
      I'd say it depends on the quality of life in the student's country. Those from western Europe, Japan, South Korea and Australia and any other country with similar quality of life would not mind going back, but almost everyone else would rather stay.
      - true_religion 9y ago
        South korean students were returning home even decades before when the country was more poor.
      - _0ffh 9y ago
xkcd-sucks 9y ago
So besides the loss in basic research, is it bad that universities should get squeezed? ...in a universe where superfluous administration is cut first, it is not.
- uoaei 9y ago
  Yeah, the problem is that they don't cut admin first. They cut newspapers, and sports, and bring in adjuncts who cost a lot less and are desperate for work.
  - jimmywanger 9y ago
    >> So besides the loss in basic research > Yeah, the problem is that they don't cut admin first. Your basic value proposition is that admin is less important than basic research and that's getting cut. In the article, it mainly that music, swimming, newspapers, and languages get cut. It says that they had to make cutbacks in CS but don't specify what the college did exactly. As far as I know, there is no basic research going on in music, swimming, newspapers, and languages. CS definitely basic research, but that was glossed over. Any sort of professor who could be somewhat replaced with an adjunct is not able to perform basic research.
  - Broken_Hippo 9y ago
    .... sports? Only if they aren't something that attract a crowd. I see very few colleges cutting basketball or football programs so they don't have to maintain stadiums any more.
    - IronKettle 9y ago
      Because those two sports are largely profitable and often subsidize other sports.
      - eastWestMath 9y ago
        Yeah the entire NCAA system is basically funded by young men playing basketball and football, a few who are objectively being cheated out of millions of dollars (because the ncaa lobbies the nfl and nba to have minimum age requirements).
melling 9y ago
This is all negative for the US but our loss is the world’s gain. China’s economy will pass the US’s in the 2030’s, for example. India will rise to #3. We should expect more R&D from the rest of the world. China may lead the world in AI and space exploration. India in drug research. Billions of people will come out of poverty. American students may flock to India to get a better education at a fraction of the cost.
- puppetmaster40 9y ago
  Math? USA is projected to grow over 3%. China is projected to grow less than 2%. At what point does China 'catch' USA? 3020?
  - melling 9y ago
    Source? https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-economy-gdp/chinas-economy-seen-growing-6-8-percent-in-2017-and-6-4-percent-in-2018-reuters-poll-idUSKBN1CT0FO https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-economy-gdp/chinas-...
    - puppetmaster40 9y ago
      Oops. You are right. I read something but... now can't find it. I hope they don't pass US.
- rdtsc 9y ago
  > This is all negative for the US but our loss is the world’s gain That's fine, why shouldn't other countries do well and achieve success. There was a story about China offering a house and a huge research budget to a Chinese national who just graduated from a US school. And people were upset and kind of negative about it, but I think it is great that China can do it. > American students may flock to India to get a better education at a fraction of the cost. Yeah, it would be good to see more international cooperation. And it can and should come from other countries becoming centers of research and learning.
  - 9y ago
rdtsc 9y ago
> First, the foreign students cross-subsidize the locals' education. There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. So now the universities have fewer resources; hence cutting the newspaper funding etc. Well any out-of-state student would do that not just international ones. There is a deeper problem there in that these universities perhaps simply can't afford to have 10 foreign languages or gyms or sports clubs. Using international students to keep those going seems a bit of a round-about way. Since many of those are state schools, maybe seeing why the states have cut funding to the schools is more useful. > Second, the foreign students increase the schools' reputations and can collaborate with the faculty. Not really. Undergraduate students are minimally involved in research. (You did read the article to sew that it talks primarily about undergraduate students, right?). > In my own PhD program, the productivity of the Americans was much lower than the foreigners. That productivity led to discoveries that benefit everyone. As I mentioned, the article doesn't talk much about PhDs and is mostly focused on international students. In my own undergraduate program, international students were about average or worse than American ones. The few that I knew were struggling with English and others were "struggling" with academic honesty. I won't mention which country they are from but I think people here might figure it out. Many were in school because their wealthy parents had money to send them more than say being chosen for their academic performance. > Third, immigration: some of the foreign students would have wound up staying. Some would have and some do. But it's not a program geared for permanent residence. There was an option to do a short internship / co-op with that visa after graduation but that was about it. > Educated people who work hard and are ambitious enough to go overseas and stay are good for the country. As I said, from what I have seen in this case it is mostly students who come from wealthy families. Do we need more students from wealthy international families in US? I don't know, maybe. I would rather it be based on merit, so perhaps refocus that effort towards graduate students in certain fields or who manage to do exceptionally well in their studies. In general it seems to me you have conflated and mixed undergraduate and graduate international student groups. For the purpose of discussion there are quite distinct in how admission, tuition, research funding and self-selection works. It seems your arguments apply more to graduate students even though the article is mostly about undergraduates. You made good points in general, but for clarity, you might want to update your comment mentioning the difference.
cm2187 9y ago
Fourth downside: there are exceptions but most of the US educated foreign students who go back home tend to have a good opinion of the US and also tend to make a good career at home. This is a very powerful form of soft power.
- ForRealsies 9y ago
  Switzerland did wonders for Kim Jong Un.
  - NTDF9 9y ago
    >> Switzerland did wonders for Kim Jong Un. It did. You don't see Kim Jong Un threatening Switzerland.
    - bilkoo 9y ago
      And look at how many Swiss watches he's buying!
  - cm2187 9y ago
    There are other notable exceptions. Pol Pot was educated in Paris. But I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese elites being educated in the US did have a big role in the conversion of China to capitalism for example.
    - MR4D 9y ago
      I’m not quite sure how you can call China “capitalist”. And even if you did, Nixon opened China up before people had any real ability to study in the US (at least compared to the last few decades).
  - desireco42 9y ago
    This is a flaw in HN, he made legitimate and witty comment and has been punished for that. Now, I can't prevent people from downvoting, but it really prevents lively discussion. Maybe limit number of downvotes people can cast. I feel that this behavior is restricting normal discussion.
prostoalex 9y ago
> There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. There’s a slight silver lining to this - up until now there’s been very little motivation to reduce those large fixed costs.
- pm90 9y ago
  If you read the article, you will see a that a lot of professors in more artistic fields (and many such programs) are being shut down. I don't think that is what you want from a University.
  - crankylinuxuser 9y ago
    Well, the Arts sure doesn't bring in any great and amazing new works, nor does it really make money. So yeah, trash it and most "liberal arts". They're not STEM, and they're a sinkhole for money.... (Karl Marx warned of this, as capitalism only sees value in what produces more value. Artistic and liberal arts value is harder to calculate, thus pointless)
    - Helmet 9y ago
      Liberal arts education is essential if our goal is to have a well-rounded, educated, ethical, and cultured citizenry. But, of course, this would mean that the liberal arts would have to actually go back to teaching the Western canon, and not simply using their positions as educators to repudiate Western and European art and culture at any turn, to radicalize students and spew their ideological fantasies, to engage in censorship and stoke racial tensions, and, this should go without saying, stop committing acts of physical assault, such as smashing people in the head with metal bike-locks, when they disagree with you (Eric Clanton, Tariq Khan, Eric Canin..etc). These are just suggestions of course, I'm sure the enlightened intelligentsia will find its way.
      - crankylinuxuser 9y ago
        The sciences show us how to do something. Liberal arts shows us the ramifications of doing said actions. I know plenty a scientists who'd love to create the next game-changing thing. But philosophy, governance, debate, argument, and understanding are not aspects taught in any good regard in STEM. Or should that thing even be created? If anything, when I think of liberal arts, I think of the Greats of Rome and Greece. I remember the ancients in India, or the rulers in China. I think of the discussions reported about the Roman Senate. Or how civilizations rise and fall and why. Or of social sciences, why people do certain things as a collective? This all is indeed logic and science, but with many more degrees of freedom and lack of understanding. Liberal Arts is essential to understanding the core of a problem, and not just the numbers and symbolics that it represents.
trentmb 9y ago
1 and 3 seem like a weird form of colonialism.
- pm90 9y ago
  Its "brain drain" and no way is it colonialism. None of these students are being "made" to emigrate; in fact a sizable amount actually return to their home countries.
dominotw 9y ago
This is also a way for a country to young, healthy and educated immmigrants, the most vaunted kind.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago

> In my own PhD program, the productivity of the Americans was much lower than the foreigners. I think the bias has swung way too far the other way. Racism against Americans is still racism. Also, this applies mainly to undergrads (full paying students), not PhD students who are generally fully funded.

lewis500 9y ago
Regarding PhDs, grad international enrollment is declining. Regarding the full-paying foreign undergrads, their tuition contributes towards the costs of the university that are shared. American students, especially at middle-ranking public schools, are hurt when schools lose their funding. Regarding the "racism against Americans," there is no such race, and if there were one it would not explain research productivity. What would is the self-selection of who will go across the world to study something technical, the much better high schools in other countries, and in the mere fact that the rest of the world is a larger talent pool than the US. It is easy to think of reasons.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  > Regarding PhDs, grad international enrollment is declining. Your source on that? All the schools I’m in contact with are still as international as ever in their CS PhD departments. I’m not sure what the trends are outside of CS, but I can’t imagine they would be very different. I think you are just pulling this number out of thin air. Research is funded quite differently from undergrad programs. Sure, fewer TAships are available, but your research funding is much more detached. DARPA and NSF aren’t going to become stingy all of a sudden. > Regarding the "racism against Americans," there is no such race, and if there were one it would not explain research productivity. If I claimed (without any evidence in fact) that “Indians or Chinese are less productive than Americans” I would totally be accused of racism even though both India and China are multi-ethnic. It is especially a stupid thing to say as foreign and domestic students are pretty diverse, with slackers (or dreamers) and very focused students on both sides.
  - anxrn 9y ago
    Recent surveys do appear to support a slowdown in international graduate school enrollments ([1] summary, [2] original study). Furthermore, this trend predates the immigration policies of the current administration, and I suspect this trend has further strengthened. [1] https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/09/28/graduate-school-enrollment-grows-again-slower-rate https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/09/28/graduate-scho... [2] http://cgsnet.org/ckfinder/userfiles/files/CGS_GED16_Report_Final.pdf http://cgsnet.org/ckfinder/userfiles/files/CGS_GED16_Report_...
    - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
      Both of those state there is a slowdown in enrollment percentage (and only .9% at that), not absolute numbers. There are still more international graduate students in 2017 than in any previous year.
      - anxrn 9y ago
        This might be semantics, but a slowdown means exactly that: a drop in growth rate.
xkcd-sucks 9y ago
You have to be crazy (e.g. addicted to the process of a research career) or clueless to start a PhD unless it figures your path to citizenship, so yeah most american PhD students are probably not the best and brightest assuming the talented crazies are a minority.
- hyperbovine 9y ago
  Ah, the old HN trash-PhDs-and-academia meme. It’s been... minutes since I last encountered this.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  Eh. Also, Chinese are in it for the green card and Americans are in it because they just love the subject. What other gross generalizations can we come up with?
  - grad_ml 9y ago
    Welcome to Ycombinator! The land of free. PS: If you guys keep downvoting me, I guess I'll be next president of the land of free! Ha ha.
- dang 9y ago
  Would you please not post snarky and/or unsubstantive comments here? Especially on divisive topics, where it reliably sparks flamewars. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
eastWestMath 9y ago
I don’t know a why you’re getting downvoted. I find, at least in my department, international students don’t get the same opportunities Canadians do. There’s definitely an archetype of a CS professor who does “interdisciplinary research” with a stable of international students doing software development projects for the bio and medicine departments.
sandworm101 9y ago
>> Racism against Americans is still racism. "Americans" is now a race? How about Texans or Australians? If I say that I hate Australians because of their silly accents, am I now a racist? Race and national citizenship are very different concepts.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- threeseed 9y ago
  Not sure why people are downvoting this. It’s illogical to claim you can be racist against diverse countries like the USA or Australia. Pretty sure the OP is more referring to xenophobia than racism.
  - pandaman 9y ago
    race noun Definition of race for Students 1 : any one of the groups that human beings can be divided into based on shared distinctive physical traits >>> 2 : a group of individuals who share a common culture or history the English race <<< 3 : a major group of living things the human race https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/race https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/race
    - pdkl95 9y ago
      > share a common culture or history Americans do not share a common culture or history. We share a political system that is at least in theoretically based on guaranteeing the freedom to participate in whatever culture you want, that isn't limited to people of a specific historical association (either by genetics or citizenship). > the English race While England does have a history and culture that traditionally was officially established by the king, Merriam-Webster's use in this example can apply when referring to historic England, the term isn't really appropriate for modern England. However, in Merriam-Webster's defense, this mildly misleading definition might be an attrempt to keep explanations simple with references young people would know. The definition that you copied was from the "RACE Defined for Kids" section of the page. Their recommended definition at the top of the page doesn't have the same issues: 1 : a breeding stock of animals 2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b : a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics 3 a : an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species; also : a taxonomic category (such as a subspecies) representing such a group b : breed c : a category of humankind that shares certain distinctive physical traits Most of these variations refer to what we now know is genetics. Isolated groujps of a species experience genetic drift (and other effects) that create genetic features unique to each group. Eventually the differences are large enough and we call them separate species (see: Darwin and the entire field of study that followed we call modern biology). None of that applies to "Americans" as a group of people. We are famously a "melting pot" where people from very different races (again in theory) are supposed to have the freedom to "melt" together however they desire. edit: For a fun, snarky, and informative (with very impressive directing), see ContraPoints video "What is Race?" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY3lBKje46E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY3lBKje46E )
fellellor 9y ago
>Racism against Americans is still racism. It's unproductive to dismiss a factual claim as racist. You can simply show data that disproves the parent's claim and implicitly confirm their racist tendencies towards Americans rather than screeching "racism".
- acover 9y ago
  > In my own PhD program, the productivity of the Americans was much lower than the foreigners. That productivity led to discoveries that benefit everyone. The original claim was an anecdote generalized to everyone. They are stereotyping millions of people based off a handful they have met. It could be true. The reverse could be true. We don't have good data. Why assume that there are differences based on background?
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  The claim wasn’t factual, it was blatantly racist. How do you fight an unfactual claim with data? How would you prove that Americans were less or more productive than foreigners? These kinds of claims are not designed to be argued with data, they are simply designed to be decisive and hurtful.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > The claim wasn’t factual Yes, it was. That is, it was a claim about a matter of fact. > How would you prove that Americans were less or more productive than foreigners? There's a number of possible operationalizations of productivity applicable to a Ph.D. program that are measurable and by which the issue could be addressed. Usually, the first thing to do would be to challenge the party making the dubious claim to both provide their operationalization and show data supporting the characterization. It's quite possible that after that, the result would be that it would be fair to dismiss the claim as inadequately supported (although the mere fact that a single claim asserting a difference in performance based on nationality is inadequately supported does not, in and of itself, provide more than extremely weak evidence that the claim comes from racism.)
    - 9y ago
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
kazagistar 9y ago
I read it more like selectivity is higher for foreign students then for Americans, which would inevitably lead to such a skweed outcome. That said, I will agree with [citation needed].

pkaye 9y ago

I wonder how many of these students come primarily for the subsequent job opportunities. If they were able to come for the education but not the subsequent OPT, would they still be willing to come? I've seen the tuition some of them paying like $50k/year and not sure how they can afford it unless they are hoping for big returns afterwards.

malloryerik 9y ago
Very often, yes, they expect to return. For example Samsung was built to a large degree by Korean students returning to Korea from overseas programs, along with students from top local schools.
maruhan2 9y ago
Most students studying abroad plan to work in that country
- netsharc 9y ago
  Source? I have a different viewpoint, a lot of people have national pride, still have a better network back home, or their parents' business, so that they actually go back to work in their home countries.
  - Bilal_io 9y ago
    I'd say it depends on the quality of life in the student's country. Those from western Europe, Japan, South Korea and Australia and any other country with similar quality of life would not mind going back, but almost everyone else would rather stay.
    - true_religion 9y ago
      South korean students were returning home even decades before when the country was more poor.
    - _0ffh 9y ago

xkcd-sucks 9y ago

So besides the loss in basic research, is it bad that universities should get squeezed? ...in a universe where superfluous administration is cut first, it is not.

uoaei 9y ago
Yeah, the problem is that they don't cut admin first. They cut newspapers, and sports, and bring in adjuncts who cost a lot less and are desperate for work.
- jimmywanger 9y ago
  >> So besides the loss in basic research > Yeah, the problem is that they don't cut admin first. Your basic value proposition is that admin is less important than basic research and that's getting cut. In the article, it mainly that music, swimming, newspapers, and languages get cut. It says that they had to make cutbacks in CS but don't specify what the college did exactly. As far as I know, there is no basic research going on in music, swimming, newspapers, and languages. CS definitely basic research, but that was glossed over. Any sort of professor who could be somewhat replaced with an adjunct is not able to perform basic research.
- Broken_Hippo 9y ago
  .... sports? Only if they aren't something that attract a crowd. I see very few colleges cutting basketball or football programs so they don't have to maintain stadiums any more.
  - IronKettle 9y ago
    Because those two sports are largely profitable and often subsidize other sports.
    - eastWestMath 9y ago
      Yeah the entire NCAA system is basically funded by young men playing basketball and football, a few who are objectively being cheated out of millions of dollars (because the ncaa lobbies the nfl and nba to have minimum age requirements).

melling 9y ago

This is all negative for the US but our loss is the world’s gain. China’s economy will pass the US’s in the 2030’s, for example. India will rise to #3. We should expect more R&D from the rest of the world. China may lead the world in AI and space exploration. India in drug research. Billions of people will come out of poverty. American students may flock to India to get a better education at a fraction of the cost.

puppetmaster40 9y ago
Math? USA is projected to grow over 3%. China is projected to grow less than 2%. At what point does China 'catch' USA? 3020?
- melling 9y ago
  Source? https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-economy-gdp/chinas-economy-seen-growing-6-8-percent-in-2017-and-6-4-percent-in-2018-reuters-poll-idUSKBN1CT0FO https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-economy-gdp/chinas-...
  - puppetmaster40 9y ago
    Oops. You are right. I read something but... now can't find it. I hope they don't pass US.
rdtsc 9y ago
> This is all negative for the US but our loss is the world’s gain That's fine, why shouldn't other countries do well and achieve success. There was a story about China offering a house and a huge research budget to a Chinese national who just graduated from a US school. And people were upset and kind of negative about it, but I think it is great that China can do it. > American students may flock to India to get a better education at a fraction of the cost. Yeah, it would be good to see more international cooperation. And it can and should come from other countries becoming centers of research and learning.
- 9y ago

rdtsc 9y ago

> First, the foreign students cross-subsidize the locals' education. There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. So now the universities have fewer resources; hence cutting the newspaper funding etc. Well any out-of-state student would do that not just international ones. There is a deeper problem there in that these universities perhaps simply can't afford to have 10 foreign languages or gyms or sports clubs. Using international students to keep those going seems a bit of a round-about way. Since many of those are state schools, maybe seeing why the states have cut funding to the schools is more useful. > Second, the foreign students increase the schools' reputations and can collaborate with the faculty. Not really. Undergraduate students are minimally involved in research. (You did read the article to sew that it talks primarily about undergraduate students, right?). > In my own PhD program, the productivity of the Americans was much lower than the foreigners. That productivity led to discoveries that benefit everyone. As I mentioned, the article doesn't talk much about PhDs and is mostly focused on international students. In my own undergraduate program, international students were about average or worse than American ones. The few that I knew were struggling with English and others were "struggling" with academic honesty. I won't mention which country they are from but I think people here might figure it out. Many were in school because their wealthy parents had money to send them more than say being chosen for their academic performance. > Third, immigration: some of the foreign students would have wound up staying. Some would have and some do. But it's not a program geared for permanent residence. There was an option to do a short internship / co-op with that visa after graduation but that was about it. > Educated people who work hard and are ambitious enough to go overseas and stay are good for the country. As I said, from what I have seen in this case it is mostly students who come from wealthy families. Do we need more students from wealthy international families in US? I don't know, maybe. I would rather it be based on merit, so perhaps refocus that effort towards graduate students in certain fields or who manage to do exceptionally well in their studies. In general it seems to me you have conflated and mixed undergraduate and graduate international student groups. For the purpose of discussion there are quite distinct in how admission, tuition, research funding and self-selection works. It seems your arguments apply more to graduate students even though the article is mostly about undergraduates. You made good points in general, but for clarity, you might want to update your comment mentioning the difference.

cm2187 9y ago

Fourth downside: there are exceptions but most of the US educated foreign students who go back home tend to have a good opinion of the US and also tend to make a good career at home. This is a very powerful form of soft power.

ForRealsies 9y ago
Switzerland did wonders for Kim Jong Un.
- NTDF9 9y ago
  >> Switzerland did wonders for Kim Jong Un. It did. You don't see Kim Jong Un threatening Switzerland.
  - bilkoo 9y ago
    And look at how many Swiss watches he's buying!
- cm2187 9y ago
  There are other notable exceptions. Pol Pot was educated in Paris. But I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese elites being educated in the US did have a big role in the conversion of China to capitalism for example.
  - MR4D 9y ago
    I’m not quite sure how you can call China “capitalist”. And even if you did, Nixon opened China up before people had any real ability to study in the US (at least compared to the last few decades).
- desireco42 9y ago
  This is a flaw in HN, he made legitimate and witty comment and has been punished for that. Now, I can't prevent people from downvoting, but it really prevents lively discussion. Maybe limit number of downvotes people can cast. I feel that this behavior is restricting normal discussion.

prostoalex 9y ago

> There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. There’s a slight silver lining to this - up until now there’s been very little motivation to reduce those large fixed costs.

pm90 9y ago
If you read the article, you will see a that a lot of professors in more artistic fields (and many such programs) are being shut down. I don't think that is what you want from a University.
- crankylinuxuser 9y ago
  Well, the Arts sure doesn't bring in any great and amazing new works, nor does it really make money. So yeah, trash it and most "liberal arts". They're not STEM, and they're a sinkhole for money.... (Karl Marx warned of this, as capitalism only sees value in what produces more value. Artistic and liberal arts value is harder to calculate, thus pointless)
  - Helmet 9y ago
    Liberal arts education is essential if our goal is to have a well-rounded, educated, ethical, and cultured citizenry. But, of course, this would mean that the liberal arts would have to actually go back to teaching the Western canon, and not simply using their positions as educators to repudiate Western and European art and culture at any turn, to radicalize students and spew their ideological fantasies, to engage in censorship and stoke racial tensions, and, this should go without saying, stop committing acts of physical assault, such as smashing people in the head with metal bike-locks, when they disagree with you (Eric Clanton, Tariq Khan, Eric Canin..etc). These are just suggestions of course, I'm sure the enlightened intelligentsia will find its way.
    - crankylinuxuser 9y ago
      The sciences show us how to do something. Liberal arts shows us the ramifications of doing said actions. I know plenty a scientists who'd love to create the next game-changing thing. But philosophy, governance, debate, argument, and understanding are not aspects taught in any good regard in STEM. Or should that thing even be created? If anything, when I think of liberal arts, I think of the Greats of Rome and Greece. I remember the ancients in India, or the rulers in China. I think of the discussions reported about the Roman Senate. Or how civilizations rise and fall and why. Or of social sciences, why people do certain things as a collective? This all is indeed logic and science, but with many more degrees of freedom and lack of understanding. Liberal Arts is essential to understanding the core of a problem, and not just the numbers and symbolics that it represents.

trentmb 9y ago

1 and 3 seem like a weird form of colonialism.

pm90 9y ago
Its "brain drain" and no way is it colonialism. None of these students are being "made" to emigrate; in fact a sizable amount actually return to their home countries.

dominotw 9y ago

This is also a way for a country to young, healthy and educated immmigrants, the most vaunted kind.