9 ms·

Somehow police in the rest of developed world are able to resist shooting a great deal of suspects on the spot. Find what's different in America and fix it.

by varjag 9y ago

cortesoft 9y ago
We know what is different but we refuse to address it. I understand that many people feel the second amendment is very important, but we at least have to have the intellectual honesty to admit that shootings like this are a consequence of it. We might decide we are willing, as a society, to accept that risk, but we can’t pretend it isn’t there.
- joe_the_user 9y ago
  I don't see much of a plausible argument that lack of gun control makes American police more trigger happy. And I say that as someone with no particular stake in gun rights. America doesn't have that high a murder rate, it just has a high rate of killings by cops. Lack of training, poor training and overall problematic police-culture seem to be the main offenders.
  - sgt101 9y ago
    3x france 4x UK. The USA has a high murder rate; ok.. not as high as Iraq, but by the standards of developed nations, high. Put it this way, more than 10k people a year are murdered in the USA that would not be should the murder rate be the same as the UK's.
  - bww 9y ago
    Easy access to guns in this country means it’s plausible that anyone the police encounter may be armed. As a result all the police also have guns and are reasonably concerned about being shot themselves – especially in tense situations. That’s a pretty direct connection from more guns in the public to more heavily armed, twitchier police.
    - Spooky23 9y ago
      There’s more connection to excessive traffic stops than to gun ownership. Guns are definately a problem, but a bigger problem is the idea that we Officers at high risk so that they can be gloried toll collectors. If you cut traffic stops by 80% and used cameras for speed enforcement, you’d dramatically reduce Officer shootings and attacks on officers. Train them to be EMTs and paramedics instead. The police and public should not be afraid of each other.
  - ollieshmollie 9y ago
    I think there's at least a plausible argument to be had. A lot of bad guys get guns through holes in gun control, getting a gun out of state, etc. If it were harder for the wrong people to get guns, maybe there wouldn't be such a need for a militarized police force, or at least officers might not fear for their lives during stressful situations. That said, I'm a believer in the second amendment -- I just think there's definitely an argument to be had.
- throwaway7312 9y ago
  Do we know what it is? You seem quite confident. Americans have 101 guns per 100 citizens. Finns have 34.2 guns per 100 citizens. Icelanders have 30.3 guns per 100 citizens. America has 110x the murder rate than Finland has. America has 13,000x the murder rate Iceland has. Whatever the cause is, 3x the guns ≠ 110x the murder rate (or 13,000x the murder rate). A more interesting comparison might be to examine countries with similar murder rates to the U.S., regardless of arbitrary "developing or not developing" boxes, and ask what the two countries have in common. For instance, countries with similar murder rates to the U.S. include: • Burundi (1.2 guns per 100 residents) • Cuba (4.8 guns per 100 residents) • Kazakhstan (1.3 guns per 100 residents) • Kyrgyzstan (0.9 guns per 100 residents) • Latvia (19 guns per 100 residents) • Niger (0.7 guns per 100 residents) • Rwanda (0.6 guns per 100 residents) • Somalia (9.1 guns per 100 residents) • Turkey (12.5 guns per 100 residents) • Turkmenistan (3.8 guns per 100 residents) • Ukraine (6.6 guns per 100 residents) What about the U.S. makes it more like these countries, murder-rate-wise, than more developed countries with higher gun ownership, like Finland or Iceland (both of which have far and away higher gun ownership than all the countries on that list)? We know it's not guns. So what's the cause?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - IgorPartola 9y ago
    > We know it's not guns. So what's the cause? You misspelled “I want to believe it’s not guns.” I am from Ukraine originally. Poverty is the reason there. So yeah let’s have that proper safety net instead. But when we are talking about this, let’s break it down a bit between different types of violence where guns are used: police shooting suspects, gang violence, run of the mill murder, and acts of terrorism. You don’t believe that the police are shooting suspects because the officers are poor, do you? Or that the Vegas shooter was poor? Or the Sandy Hook one? Gang violence is a result of poverty, but terror attacks (the US likes to call these mass shootings when the suspect is white and/or Christian), are not. I think it is time to repeal the second amendment. It clearly failed to create an organized militia that could stand up to an oppressive government. The US police force alone is enough to suppress any rebellion by the civilians, and if aided by the military, no militia could stand up to it. You can have gun ownership without the second amendment. Individual laws could grant access to weapons. But it is time to switch from a loophole that lets us have all the guns unless specifically disallowed by a law to a denied first, allowed second system. Do I hear you ask about all the criminals that would keep their guns anyways, and only the law abiding citizens would be left unarmed? I will buy that argument the day it’s applied across the board to drugs and abortions.
- trophycase 9y ago
  America's biggest problem is it's heterogeneity, not guns.
- dukeflukem 9y ago
  Replying to throwaway7312 America doesn't have much in common with those countries listed. They are much poorer countries where law and order isn't upheld as well as the US. I think the key is not just gun ownership rates but WHO is owning the gun and WHY. The Iceland and Finland examples make me think cold countries with higher rural populations and hunting as a sport or necessity. OTOH in USA perhaps more ordinary people buy guns for self defence purposes with the intent to shoot a person not an animal. Edit: weird I can now see the reply button for that comment I didn't before. Apologies
- mindslight 9y ago
  The second amendment is irrelevant, as employers (eg the police) can simply prohibit carrying a gun as a condition of employment. How many meter maids get shot?
freedomben 9y ago
I agree. I'm far from an expert in this field, but my general observations is that we have a huge police presence in America. They are also empowered way beyond what our founders intended. That for one needs to change. It may also help if we stopped criminalizing every little thing, and giving our Environmental Protection Agency a freaking SWAT team[1]. [1]: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/14/armed-epa-agents-in-alaska-shed-light-on-70-fed-agencies-with-armed-divisions.html http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/14/armed-epa-agents-...
- Bud 9y ago
  A biased article, which does not mention any "SWAT team"—only that some gold miner was outraged that the police investigating him had handguns. Big deal. The next substantive, impartial article from Fox News about the EPA will be the first one I've seen.
gaius 9y ago
Find what's different in America and fix it The average American spends several hours a week watching TV and movies where the rule-breaking shoot-first-and-ask-questions-later cop is the hero. Probably most people who join the police see themselves in that role. Here in the UK our cop shows are like Midsomer Murders. Most episodes don’t even feature a gun...
- wott 9y ago
  > Here in the UK our cop shows are like Midsomer Murders. Most episodes don’t even feature a gun... But your rusty gardening tools seem as efficient and they enhance murdering creativity :-)
- learc83 9y ago
  >Here in the UK our cop shows are like Midsomer Murders. Most episodes don’t even feature a gun... Midsomer Murders is a murder mystery show, not really a cop show. There are plenty of action oriented Brotish Cop shows. I love Midsomer Murders by the way.
  - gaius 9y ago
    Well, so is NCIS then, and they love guns and rule-breaking...
    - learc83 9y ago
      NCIS is a federal investigative and intelligence service--much like MI5, which leads us to Spooks that also has quite a bit of guns and rule breaking.
      - jessaustin 9y ago
        NCIS? Don't assume anything based on that show; it is a ridiculous farce of nonsense and made-up bullshit. I have family members who watch it religiously, in all its goofy flavors. Not a minute passes without the seemingly serious portrayal of something that would never happen.

Somehow police in the rest of developed world are able to resist shooting a great deal of suspects on the spot. Find what's different in America and fix it.

by varjag 9y ago

Somehow police in the rest of developed world are able to resist shooting a great deal of suspects on the spot. Find what's different in America and fix it.

cortesoft 9y ago

We know what is different but we refuse to address it. I understand that many people feel the second amendment is very important, but we at least have to have the intellectual honesty to admit that shootings like this are a consequence of it. We might decide we are willing, as a society, to accept that risk, but we can’t pretend it isn’t there.

joe_the_user 9y ago
I don't see much of a plausible argument that lack of gun control makes American police more trigger happy. And I say that as someone with no particular stake in gun rights. America doesn't have that high a murder rate, it just has a high rate of killings by cops. Lack of training, poor training and overall problematic police-culture seem to be the main offenders.
- sgt101 9y ago
  3x france 4x UK. The USA has a high murder rate; ok.. not as high as Iraq, but by the standards of developed nations, high. Put it this way, more than 10k people a year are murdered in the USA that would not be should the murder rate be the same as the UK's.
- bww 9y ago
  Easy access to guns in this country means it’s plausible that anyone the police encounter may be armed. As a result all the police also have guns and are reasonably concerned about being shot themselves – especially in tense situations. That’s a pretty direct connection from more guns in the public to more heavily armed, twitchier police.
  - Spooky23 9y ago
    There’s more connection to excessive traffic stops than to gun ownership. Guns are definately a problem, but a bigger problem is the idea that we Officers at high risk so that they can be gloried toll collectors. If you cut traffic stops by 80% and used cameras for speed enforcement, you’d dramatically reduce Officer shootings and attacks on officers. Train them to be EMTs and paramedics instead. The police and public should not be afraid of each other.
- ollieshmollie 9y ago
  I think there's at least a plausible argument to be had. A lot of bad guys get guns through holes in gun control, getting a gun out of state, etc. If it were harder for the wrong people to get guns, maybe there wouldn't be such a need for a militarized police force, or at least officers might not fear for their lives during stressful situations. That said, I'm a believer in the second amendment -- I just think there's definitely an argument to be had.
throwaway7312 9y ago
Do we know what it is? You seem quite confident. Americans have 101 guns per 100 citizens. Finns have 34.2 guns per 100 citizens. Icelanders have 30.3 guns per 100 citizens. America has 110x the murder rate than Finland has. America has 13,000x the murder rate Iceland has. Whatever the cause is, 3x the guns ≠ 110x the murder rate (or 13,000x the murder rate). A more interesting comparison might be to examine countries with similar murder rates to the U.S., regardless of arbitrary "developing or not developing" boxes, and ask what the two countries have in common. For instance, countries with similar murder rates to the U.S. include: • Burundi (1.2 guns per 100 residents) • Cuba (4.8 guns per 100 residents) • Kazakhstan (1.3 guns per 100 residents) • Kyrgyzstan (0.9 guns per 100 residents) • Latvia (19 guns per 100 residents) • Niger (0.7 guns per 100 residents) • Rwanda (0.6 guns per 100 residents) • Somalia (9.1 guns per 100 residents) • Turkey (12.5 guns per 100 residents) • Turkmenistan (3.8 guns per 100 residents) • Ukraine (6.6 guns per 100 residents) What about the U.S. makes it more like these countries, murder-rate-wise, than more developed countries with higher gun ownership, like Finland or Iceland (both of which have far and away higher gun ownership than all the countries on that list)? We know it's not guns. So what's the cause?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- IgorPartola 9y ago
  > We know it's not guns. So what's the cause? You misspelled “I want to believe it’s not guns.” I am from Ukraine originally. Poverty is the reason there. So yeah let’s have that proper safety net instead. But when we are talking about this, let’s break it down a bit between different types of violence where guns are used: police shooting suspects, gang violence, run of the mill murder, and acts of terrorism. You don’t believe that the police are shooting suspects because the officers are poor, do you? Or that the Vegas shooter was poor? Or the Sandy Hook one? Gang violence is a result of poverty, but terror attacks (the US likes to call these mass shootings when the suspect is white and/or Christian), are not. I think it is time to repeal the second amendment. It clearly failed to create an organized militia that could stand up to an oppressive government. The US police force alone is enough to suppress any rebellion by the civilians, and if aided by the military, no militia could stand up to it. You can have gun ownership without the second amendment. Individual laws could grant access to weapons. But it is time to switch from a loophole that lets us have all the guns unless specifically disallowed by a law to a denied first, allowed second system. Do I hear you ask about all the criminals that would keep their guns anyways, and only the law abiding citizens would be left unarmed? I will buy that argument the day it’s applied across the board to drugs and abortions.
trophycase 9y ago
America's biggest problem is it's heterogeneity, not guns.
dukeflukem 9y ago
Replying to throwaway7312 America doesn't have much in common with those countries listed. They are much poorer countries where law and order isn't upheld as well as the US. I think the key is not just gun ownership rates but WHO is owning the gun and WHY. The Iceland and Finland examples make me think cold countries with higher rural populations and hunting as a sport or necessity. OTOH in USA perhaps more ordinary people buy guns for self defence purposes with the intent to shoot a person not an animal. Edit: weird I can now see the reply button for that comment I didn't before. Apologies
mindslight 9y ago
The second amendment is irrelevant, as employers (eg the police) can simply prohibit carrying a gun as a condition of employment. How many meter maids get shot?

freedomben 9y ago

I agree. I'm far from an expert in this field, but my general observations is that we have a huge police presence in America. They are also empowered way beyond what our founders intended. That for one needs to change. It may also help if we stopped criminalizing every little thing, and giving our Environmental Protection Agency a freaking SWAT team[1]. [1]: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/14/armed-epa-agents-in-alaska-shed-light-on-70-fed-agencies-with-armed-divisions.html http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/14/armed-epa-agents-...

Bud 9y ago
A biased article, which does not mention any "SWAT team"—only that some gold miner was outraged that the police investigating him had handguns. Big deal. The next substantive, impartial article from Fox News about the EPA will be the first one I've seen.

gaius 9y ago

Find what's different in America and fix it The average American spends several hours a week watching TV and movies where the rule-breaking shoot-first-and-ask-questions-later cop is the hero. Probably most people who join the police see themselves in that role. Here in the UK our cop shows are like Midsomer Murders. Most episodes don’t even feature a gun...

wott 9y ago
> Here in the UK our cop shows are like Midsomer Murders. Most episodes don’t even feature a gun... But your rusty gardening tools seem as efficient and they enhance murdering creativity :-)
learc83 9y ago
>Here in the UK our cop shows are like Midsomer Murders. Most episodes don’t even feature a gun... Midsomer Murders is a murder mystery show, not really a cop show. There are plenty of action oriented Brotish Cop shows. I love Midsomer Murders by the way.
- gaius 9y ago
  Well, so is NCIS then, and they love guns and rule-breaking...
  - learc83 9y ago
    NCIS is a federal investigative and intelligence service--much like MI5, which leads us to Spooks that also has quite a bit of guns and rule breaking.
    - jessaustin 9y ago
      NCIS? Don't assume anything based on that show; it is a ridiculous farce of nonsense and made-up bullshit. I have family members who watch it religiously, in all its goofy flavors. Not a minute passes without the seemingly serious portrayal of something that would never happen.