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Yeah. I've got a couple of good old fashioned regular performance cars here in the SF bay area. I'd love to have the excuse (read: carpool lane access, long com

by rconti 9y ago

Yeah. I've got a couple of good old fashioned regular performance cars here in the SF bay area. I'd love to have the excuse (read: carpool lane access, long commute, whatever) to buy an electric but there's just no "need" in my life for a new vehicle. That said, the penetration rate of electric vehicles as a proportion of new vehicles here is staggering. The Model S easily outsells any competitor's luxury car in the same class, you'd have to combine all A6 / 5 series / E Class sales to even hope to show the same numbers. And I can see why -- if you want to plunk down all this cash for a new car, why not get something truly new, not something outdated? My uncle is very frugal and has spent years looking at buying a new car and then up and ordered a (very base) Model S with the reasoning, if I'm spending all this money, I want to spend the money on future tech, not old tech. Even sitting in my 2016 car this morning, in the cold, I was thinking how silly it is that I have to wait for the coolant in the car to warm up before the heater starts blowing hot, and how funny all of the ICE cars look with steam coming out of the exhaust on a cold morning. It already feels out of date.

codeulike 9y ago
You might enjoy this tongue-in-cheek 'Test Drive of a Petrol Car' written by a Swedish Tesla owner back in 2015 http://teslaclubsweden.se/test-drive-of-a-petrol-car/ http://teslaclubsweden.se/test-drive-of-a-petrol-car/
- BatFastard 9y ago
  That is fabulous!
mikestew 9y ago
It already feels out of date More than that, after six years of Leaf ownership it feels downright primitive. In our ‘81 VW it’s acceptable because, hey, it’s an old vehicle. You know, back when you could really feel what a car’s doing, blah, blah, blah. But in a modern $50K car? Turning mechanical gears to get that rattling contraption of an ICE going, gawd, I’m surprised you didn’t make me crank it by hand. To refuel it, I have to go out of my way to a specialist vendor? Not just plug it in when I get home? Sounds silly unless you’ve owned an EV, but it truly represents my feelings even when driving our smooth, reliable Scion. But as the old canard goes, if I have to explain then you wouldn’t understand.
- funnelsgun 9y ago
  > You know, back when you could really feel what a car’s doing, blah, blah, blah. There is an argument to be made for this. In most new cars, whether ICE or electric, electric power steering racks have almost removed all feedback through the wheel. Feedback is good, it communicates what the wheels are doing, what the road surface is like, what traction is like, etc... and I'd argue that good steering feedback is important for safe driving.
  - mikestew 9y ago
    There is an argument to be made for this. There most certainly is, for a tiny, tiny minority of people who buy cars. That’s why I used it as example. Picture the older middle-aged guy going on about how “cars back then..” until your eyes glaze (and if you’ve met me, you’ll have a working example). Yeah, nobody cares, old man, my ‘08 Corolla was cheap. I already typed this before you deleted, so I’m putting it here. :-) In summary, I think “feel” matters to a small number of people. To those that notice (I count myself amongst them), it’s pretty important. To the vast majority of drivers I think that as long as the car gets them to work it’s good enough. The reason I used it as an example is because the ones I find that will argue the importance of “feel” are old, rambling guys like me. IOW, I was originally making of myself to some degree.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - funnelsgun 9y ago
      You could argue that it’s not that drivers don’t care for good steering feedback, but most drivers never get to experience good steering feedback and therefore don’t know what it is and how much it improves the driving experience. It’s kind of a Catch 22.
    - drawnwren 9y ago
      You've hit the nail on the head. I'm a performance fan who pulls his car apart to make it exactly the way I want. However, I recommend the 3 (once the price comes down a bit) to friends. If you want a car that makes transportation easy, Tesla is winning that race. I'd love to see other electrics catch up.
semi-extrinsic 9y ago
> The Model S easily outsells any competitor's luxury car in the same class, you'd have to combine all A6 / 5 series / E Class sales to even hope to show the same numbers. In the US, Tesla's home market, yes. But if you go to Europe, it changes completely - those three models you listed average a combined annual European sales volume north of 300 000, which is more than the global total of all Tesla cars ever sold. The only way Tesla will be anything but an SV-hype-fueled anecdote is if they can actually deliver on the Model 3 next year, and it ain't looking too peachy. I mean, GM's outselling them on chargeable vehicles in the US this year.
- dripton 9y ago
  https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/ https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/ says Tesla 40812, GM 38699. That's with only 712 Model 3s sold. If the 3 ramps at all, it will not be close. Edit: GM 38699. I initially missed the 179 CT6s, 21 Spark EVs, and 17 ELRs at the bottom of the table.
  - semi-extrinsic 9y ago
    If you just repeat the November numbers in December, you get GM higher. The Bolt and Volt is actually ramping up, while Tesla is flat.
    - dripton 9y ago
      December numbers will be available in a couple of weeks, and then we'll know for sure. Model 3 numbers have ramped up in December. In 2018, unless Tesla has serious unfixable production problems, it won't be close. I don't know how many Model 3s Tesla can make next year, but I know they can sell them all...
      - dripton 9y ago
        https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/ https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/ December: Tesla 9335, GM 5173
funnelsgun 9y ago
> all of the ICE cars look with steam coming out of the exhaust on a cold morning but the cold-start is the best part! reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exenWWOK_2o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exenWWOK_2o
DrScump 9y ago
how silly it is that I have to wait for the coolant in the car to warm up before the heater starts blowing hot [EDIT: extended quote to full clause] Dude. The overnight LOW in SF Downtown was 49F, and I doubt anywhere in the Bay Area proper even hit 40F. You need not wait longer than 15 seconds or so to put 'er in gear and go. This isn't Buffalo.
- jakemoshenko 9y ago
  ... the coolant in the car to warm up before the heater starts blowing hot You conveniently truncated the quote to change the issue. If they wanted heat, they have to wait longer than 15s.
  - DrScump 9y ago
    I changed the quote to include the entire clause, but the concept still makes no sense to me in a Bay Area context (heck, I'm wearing shorts today). How many EVs produce passenger heat in meaningful amounts immediately (even ignoring the added battery drain), and how much of a burden is 50+-degree in-car temperatures for a few minutes while you're already in outdoor clothing?
    - lscotte 9y ago
      Few - Many electric cars use inefficient electric heat that draws as much battery power as the traction motors. Some have more efficient heat pumps, but not all. Regardless, heat is no more instant in an EV than a conventional vehicle.
      - sitkack 9y ago
        Not to be technically correct, but electric heat is 100% efficient.
        sgc 9y ago
        A heat pump can be more than 100% efficient in the sense you seem to be talking about. It transfers heat from one area to another, and can bring in more heat to a space than the energy used could produce in heat through a resistive heating element. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump
Jill_the_Pill 9y ago
"there's just no "need" in my life for a new vehicle" You mean no need in your life besides our shared need to reduce atmospheric carbon, oil extraction, and other automobile pollutants, to keep climate change to a level merely devastating rather than catastrophic, and to preserve a habitable planet for the generations to come?
- chc 9y ago
  I'm pretty sure your old car would have to be especially awful to make buying a new car — electric or not — the environmentally friendly option.
- xbmcuser 9y ago
  Junking an older car with a newer electric car won't decrease your carbon footprint but increase it. But if you are in the market to buy a car going electric or hybrid should be the way to go. Obama fuel efficiency rules were good but didn't go far enough by now car manufacturer should not be allowed to sell non hybrid fuel cars at all.
- rconti 9y ago
  I travel about 400 miles per month by car in a vehicle that gets 25mpg. That's 16 gallons/month or 281.6lb of CO2 per month. What's the break-even on how many lbs of CO2 I'd have to pump into the atmosphere before it was more environmentally friendly to produce an entire new automobile with 800lbs of batteries?
nine_k 9y ago
I thought the killer feature of electric cars is recuperative braking. So I suppose that a reasonably lightweight electric car should be perfect for city commute with constant start / stop on traffic lights, and for congested roads of SV. Long commute, OTOH, seems favorable for a well-built ICE car.
gnu8 9y ago
> Even sitting in my 2016 car this morning, in the cold, I was thinking how silly it is that I have to wait for the coolant in the car to warm up before the heater starts blowing hot, and how funny all of the ICE cars look with steam coming out of the exhaust on a cold morning. It already feels out of date. The way we northerners deal with that is to have a remote starter installed in our car. By the time we're done putting on our coats and shoes, kissing our wives, and brushing the accumulated snow off the car, the heater is blowing hot and it is fairly comfortable inside. I will grant that this does burn some gas, but how much range in comparison does an electric car sacrifice by heating the cabin off battery power over your entire commute?
- bkjelden 9y ago
  If your car is plugged in it can use wall power to pre-heat before your commute, similar to remote start.
  - gnu8 9y ago
    Pre-heating is great, but if your commute is very long it can't make much difference. Traditionally, vehicles are very poorly insulated and it isn't a big problem because their heat is a free waste product. Electric vehicles really need a level of insulation they haven't even considered yet.

by rconti 9y ago

codeulike 9y ago

You might enjoy this tongue-in-cheek 'Test Drive of a Petrol Car' written by a Swedish Tesla owner back in 2015 http://teslaclubsweden.se/test-drive-of-a-petrol-car/ http://teslaclubsweden.se/test-drive-of-a-petrol-car/

BatFastard 9y ago
That is fabulous!

mikestew 9y ago

It already feels out of date More than that, after six years of Leaf ownership it feels downright primitive. In our ‘81 VW it’s acceptable because, hey, it’s an old vehicle. You know, back when you could really feel what a car’s doing, blah, blah, blah. But in a modern $50K car? Turning mechanical gears to get that rattling contraption of an ICE going, gawd, I’m surprised you didn’t make me crank it by hand. To refuel it, I have to go out of my way to a specialist vendor? Not just plug it in when I get home? Sounds silly unless you’ve owned an EV, but it truly represents my feelings even when driving our smooth, reliable Scion. But as the old canard goes, if I have to explain then you wouldn’t understand.

funnelsgun 9y ago
> You know, back when you could really feel what a car’s doing, blah, blah, blah. There is an argument to be made for this. In most new cars, whether ICE or electric, electric power steering racks have almost removed all feedback through the wheel. Feedback is good, it communicates what the wheels are doing, what the road surface is like, what traction is like, etc... and I'd argue that good steering feedback is important for safe driving.
- mikestew 9y ago
  There is an argument to be made for this. There most certainly is, for a tiny, tiny minority of people who buy cars. That’s why I used it as example. Picture the older middle-aged guy going on about how “cars back then..” until your eyes glaze (and if you’ve met me, you’ll have a working example). Yeah, nobody cares, old man, my ‘08 Corolla was cheap. I already typed this before you deleted, so I’m putting it here. :-) In summary, I think “feel” matters to a small number of people. To those that notice (I count myself amongst them), it’s pretty important. To the vast majority of drivers I think that as long as the car gets them to work it’s good enough. The reason I used it as an example is because the ones I find that will argue the importance of “feel” are old, rambling guys like me. IOW, I was originally making of myself to some degree.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - funnelsgun 9y ago
    You could argue that it’s not that drivers don’t care for good steering feedback, but most drivers never get to experience good steering feedback and therefore don’t know what it is and how much it improves the driving experience. It’s kind of a Catch 22.
  - drawnwren 9y ago
    You've hit the nail on the head. I'm a performance fan who pulls his car apart to make it exactly the way I want. However, I recommend the 3 (once the price comes down a bit) to friends. If you want a car that makes transportation easy, Tesla is winning that race. I'd love to see other electrics catch up.

semi-extrinsic 9y ago

> The Model S easily outsells any competitor's luxury car in the same class, you'd have to combine all A6 / 5 series / E Class sales to even hope to show the same numbers. In the US, Tesla's home market, yes. But if you go to Europe, it changes completely - those three models you listed average a combined annual European sales volume north of 300 000, which is more than the global total of all Tesla cars ever sold. The only way Tesla will be anything but an SV-hype-fueled anecdote is if they can actually deliver on the Model 3 next year, and it ain't looking too peachy. I mean, GM's outselling them on chargeable vehicles in the US this year.

dripton 9y ago
https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/ https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/ says Tesla 40812, GM 38699. That's with only 712 Model 3s sold. If the 3 ramps at all, it will not be close. Edit: GM 38699. I initially missed the 179 CT6s, 21 Spark EVs, and 17 ELRs at the bottom of the table.
- semi-extrinsic 9y ago
  If you just repeat the November numbers in December, you get GM higher. The Bolt and Volt is actually ramping up, while Tesla is flat.
  - dripton 9y ago
    December numbers will be available in a couple of weeks, and then we'll know for sure. Model 3 numbers have ramped up in December. In 2018, unless Tesla has serious unfixable production problems, it won't be close. I don't know how many Model 3s Tesla can make next year, but I know they can sell them all...
    - dripton 9y ago
      https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/ https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/ December: Tesla 9335, GM 5173

funnelsgun 9y ago

> all of the ICE cars look with steam coming out of the exhaust on a cold morning but the cold-start is the best part! reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exenWWOK_2o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exenWWOK_2o

DrScump 9y ago

how silly it is that I have to wait for the coolant in the car to warm up before the heater starts blowing hot [EDIT: extended quote to full clause] Dude. The overnight LOW in SF Downtown was 49F, and I doubt anywhere in the Bay Area proper even hit 40F. You need not wait longer than 15 seconds or so to put 'er in gear and go. This isn't Buffalo.

jakemoshenko 9y ago
... the coolant in the car to warm up before the heater starts blowing hot You conveniently truncated the quote to change the issue. If they wanted heat, they have to wait longer than 15s.
- DrScump 9y ago
  I changed the quote to include the entire clause, but the concept still makes no sense to me in a Bay Area context (heck, I'm wearing shorts today). How many EVs produce passenger heat in meaningful amounts immediately (even ignoring the added battery drain), and how much of a burden is 50+-degree in-car temperatures for a few minutes while you're already in outdoor clothing?
  - lscotte 9y ago
    Few - Many electric cars use inefficient electric heat that draws as much battery power as the traction motors. Some have more efficient heat pumps, but not all. Regardless, heat is no more instant in an EV than a conventional vehicle.
    - sitkack 9y ago
      Not to be technically correct, but electric heat is 100% efficient.
      - sgc 9y ago
        A heat pump can be more than 100% efficient in the sense you seem to be talking about. It transfers heat from one area to another, and can bring in more heat to a space than the energy used could produce in heat through a resistive heating element. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump

Jill_the_Pill 9y ago

"there's just no "need" in my life for a new vehicle" You mean no need in your life besides our shared need to reduce atmospheric carbon, oil extraction, and other automobile pollutants, to keep climate change to a level merely devastating rather than catastrophic, and to preserve a habitable planet for the generations to come?

chc 9y ago
I'm pretty sure your old car would have to be especially awful to make buying a new car — electric or not — the environmentally friendly option.
xbmcuser 9y ago
Junking an older car with a newer electric car won't decrease your carbon footprint but increase it. But if you are in the market to buy a car going electric or hybrid should be the way to go. Obama fuel efficiency rules were good but didn't go far enough by now car manufacturer should not be allowed to sell non hybrid fuel cars at all.
rconti 9y ago
I travel about 400 miles per month by car in a vehicle that gets 25mpg. That's 16 gallons/month or 281.6lb of CO2 per month. What's the break-even on how many lbs of CO2 I'd have to pump into the atmosphere before it was more environmentally friendly to produce an entire new automobile with 800lbs of batteries?

nine_k 9y ago

I thought the killer feature of electric cars is recuperative braking. So I suppose that a reasonably lightweight electric car should be perfect for city commute with constant start / stop on traffic lights, and for congested roads of SV. Long commute, OTOH, seems favorable for a well-built ICE car.

gnu8 9y ago

> Even sitting in my 2016 car this morning, in the cold, I was thinking how silly it is that I have to wait for the coolant in the car to warm up before the heater starts blowing hot, and how funny all of the ICE cars look with steam coming out of the exhaust on a cold morning. It already feels out of date. The way we northerners deal with that is to have a remote starter installed in our car. By the time we're done putting on our coats and shoes, kissing our wives, and brushing the accumulated snow off the car, the heater is blowing hot and it is fairly comfortable inside. I will grant that this does burn some gas, but how much range in comparison does an electric car sacrifice by heating the cabin off battery power over your entire commute?

bkjelden 9y ago
If your car is plugged in it can use wall power to pre-heat before your commute, similar to remote start.
- gnu8 9y ago
  Pre-heating is great, but if your commute is very long it can't make much difference. Traditionally, vehicles are very poorly insulated and it isn't a big problem because their heat is a free waste product. Electric vehicles really need a level of insulation they haven't even considered yet.