7 ms·

It's quite simple. Paper is a near-perfect technology. What replaces it has to be similarly perfect. When people look at what replaces paper, they think screens

It's quite simple. Paper is a near-perfect technology. What replaces it has to be similarly perfect. When people look at what replaces paper, they think screens. Screens are pretty-near perfect too. But screens are not what replace paper. Files are. Screens merely display information, files store it. And file storage and manipulation is still in the Stone Age. It's about as far from perfect as any technology can be. To kill paper you have to make it perfectly easy for people to design applications without it. Because it's already perfectly easy to design applications and systems that use paper. We have to fix software development before we can truly kill paper.

shrimp_emoji 9y ago
What innovations in file storage and manipulation would characterize a progression to the Bronze Age?
- vinceguidry 9y ago
  I would say when files become easily storable and accessible. Right now untold amounts of human labor are destroyed whenever the computer systems those humans are using fail. When I think about how most people use computers, I get the distinct feeling like I'm watching an episode of Primitive Technologies. Systems like Dropbox are a good first step, but the archival of files is still far too complicated. This stuff needs to be easy enough for your 80 year old grandma to master. I'd say we're probably 20-50 years out. We're eventually going to figure out a basic file format that all applications will use and extend. Then it'll become necessary for all applications to support it. It'll have solved the encoding problem, and it'll have built-in error correction. Sort of a Unicode for file formats. Once that's in place, then cloud storage and backup solutions will finally become useful.
  - Splines 9y ago
    IMO one of the problems with cloud storage in general is how complicated it is. There are so many moving parts and so many things that could go wrong that there are inevitably many states a file could be in and asking them to troubleshoot these is impossible. For example, my wife is syncing several GBs of data up to Google Photos as we speak. Periodically, the sync process will complain about something and stop. There is nothing we can do except ask it to exit and we try again. What went wrong? Who knows. We certainly don't. The app UI isn't telling us anything. So we cross our fingers, restart the sync app and hope it works. This isn't the future. "A file" needs to be have the qualities we need as a paper-replacement as an intrinsic property of itself, not conceptual software design properties that are merely abstractions.
  - mjevans 9y ago
    I conjecture that error detection (and recovery) are layers beneath the file format it's self. They belong in the filing system and storage layers within/under that. Application code should never need to worry about error recovery. We're kind of close to this for text files, if only Windows and related programs would join the rest of the sane world. Stop adding 'BOM Marks' and just assume everything is UTF-8 (at least for any txt file created after 2000 and all application stdin/out/errs). However the biggest barrier here is a complete disconnect between interested parties. Adobe wants to make money and keeps 'pdf' locked away. It's also bad because paper size is enforced, instead of having an aspect ratio, and positioning for different elements. Even HTML rendering isn't that simple, and NO designer is working using those tools. Additionally that complexity is FAR above what the average user can handle and WAY above what they want to deal with even if they can. Any format which /is/ user friendly will have to support things like 'drawings' / sketches which may or may not be auto OCRed for searching. I'm of the opinion that this won't really be solved until we have //strong// AI to do transcription and formatting for the lazy humans.
  - nradov 9y ago
    Dropbox is fine until they go bankrupt or get acquired by another company which isn't interested in acting as your archive.
  - fragmede 9y ago
    > We're eventually going to figure out a basic file format that all applications will use and extend. The general trend seems to skip that and is moving towards renting hosted software applications. Google docs is already pervasive in certain corners, and not only can I not tell you what version of Google docs I'm using, but I can't really tell you what its file formats are, or even where it's even actually stored other than "in the cloud". Assuming that trend continues, what, then, even are file formats?
    - vinceguidry 9y ago
      The hiding of file formats behind the application isn't new, but that doesn't make them go away. Should the app ever die, necessitating a migration, then the file formats will suddenly become painfully relevant again. We need a universal file format similar to plaintext but has standards-based extensions for storing data in that all applications can extract to. That way software can finally achieve paper's universality. It's the first step on the road to making information technology truly worthy of the name. The next would be easy-to-use programming platforms. Like Excel or Visual Basic but not shitty.
- cryptoz 9y ago
  Not the OP, but 98% of the time that someone sends me a .key file for a Mac Keynote presentation, my Keynote application is out of date and cannot open the file. Additionally, it sometimes cannot update either, unless other components are updated, such as the entire OS itself. A bare minimum requirement for me would be, "a computer can be reasonably expected to open the file". Yes, a computer without the correct application installed could not reasonably be expected to open the file. But here is a computer, perfectly capable of displaying the file, but choosing not to do so. Note that these are not files that are created with the new Keynote that I may not have installed. These are normal Keynote files created in the same version I have - but now my version isn't good enough to open files any more, it would seem. A piece of paper would never do that.
  - kqr 9y ago
    > Yes, a computer without the correct application installed could not reasonably be expected to open the file. I disagree. I write my presentations in Org. Perfectly readable even to peooole without Emacs. I do my accounting using hledger. Perfectly readable etc. I do my $task using ${plain text format}, peefectly readble even to people without ${tool that helps me format the document nicely}. Etc.
    - gkya 9y ago
      You're part of a minority among a minority. And many institutions require you use some certain application software and file formats.
- brendyn 9y ago
  I'll cut in rudely with my own reply. Sharing files is unbelievably inconvenient. Sharing files to my mum in the other room involves copying files to a USB drive and moving them manually, after I reformat a USB to ntfs or fat32. It doesn't matter that both of our computers are on a LAN because by default we have no pre-existing convenient ways to share files. With her being on Windows and me being on GNU/Linux, I'm not even sure which program I would pick if I could install one. For anyone that isn't in USB drive proximity, I have to brainstorm a solution every single time I want to share a file for every person I want to give it too. This is all despite the fact that theoretically, there are a million different ways that we could share a file.
  - lsadam0 9y ago
    There are numerous better options than a usb drive: Email, cloud storage, almost any messaging client, etc.
    - nradov 9y ago
      Yes well that's kind of the problem isn't it? Too many options and no default cross-platform standard.
      - lsadam0 9y ago
        All of the options I listed are cross platform. Why must a standard exist in this case? FTP is standard and cross platform. This is nothing more than a UX problem.
        nradov 9y ago
        It's not really practical to run an FTP server on a mobile device.
    - 2muchcoffeeman 9y ago
      Most alternatives are really inadequate, especially for large files. When you are in the same room or even city, I should be able to just move large amounts of data from one computer to a physically adjacent computer without having to go through the internet. For long distance transfers, I agree with various cloud storage. Upload some files and create a share link. But even this is an annoyance for a large file.
BjoernKW 9y ago
While paper used to be the near-perfect technology for storing and distributing non-ephemeral information nowadays this has been turned on its head to the extent that using paper for these purposes has become downright detrimental: Information stored on paper in some filing cabinet in some office for all practical purposes simply doesn't exist. It can't be easily searched, retrieved or accessed by someone who's not in the same room and doesn't exactly know what he's looking for. In other words: That information is lost. Old habits unfortunately die hard, which is why people still seem to be thinking that storing non-ephemeral information or knowledge on paper is a good idea.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  > It can't be easily searched, retrieved or accessed by someone who's not in the same room and doesn't exactly know what he's looking for To a lot of people in a lot of scenarios, that is a feature. Modern cryptography has yet to match the ease of use, comfort and security of a single piece of paper locked away somewhere only you would think to look.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- vinceguidry 9y ago
  Information locked away on some local user's desktop also doesn't exist. If information isn't stored on a dedicated application-specific storage system staffed with people skilled in it's use and repair, then it's the exact same thing. We can't just take information and dump it on a block storage device. It needs proper archival. This is the same with paper, only if you lose the key to your file cabinet or the drawers stop sliding so easily, you can still get at the information. If your RAID backplane dies and you don't know how to fix it, you're in for a bad day. There is a skillset you can learn to work with paper more efficiently. But most people can muddle through without those skills. Not so with digital.
scroot 9y ago
When you read about Kay's Dynabook idea (and get past how the machine mockup looks) you see that he's essentially describing the "computational equivalent" to paper. With such a medium, one could create digital forms as easily as they draw printed forms on paper. And we do not have these types of machines or systems today. Additionally, there is no better read experience than paper. And consider archiving: digital documents are much harder to preserve than paper documents, and this has enormous implications for public policy, history, and democracy.
pishpash 9y ago
Even as display it sucks. Where's the e-paper that was promised decades ago? Paper (and pen) have stood the test of time for thousands of years. Warped tech nuts believe they can be replaced by substandard junk electronics. I'm glad consumers aren't so gullible.
wvenable 9y ago
Paper isn't perfect. For one thing, it costs a hell of a lot more to store paper than to store digital files; we pay a huge amount to store files offsite. And paper used for ephemeral content is inherently wasteful. Paper is slowly but surely going away. We just finished digitizing all our employee records; all records from now on will be digital. We used to print reams of reports and store them in filing cabinets, shelves, etc but we don't do that anymore. We aren't paperless but it's been a slow and steady march for decades now.
jdietrich 9y ago
Office IT is almost uniformly terrible. I see a lot of companies trying to achieve a paperless office, but very few spending the money it takes to make it a reality. Paperless workers need two large high-res monitors, not one crappy 21" 1080p monitor or a laptop with a 1366x768 panel. They need at least one tablet with a decent pen interface. They need a good document management system. They need the training and support to make use of it all.
adamsea 9y ago
And, to add to what you're saying, paper is infinitely easier for people to interact with. It's a physical, tangible object which they can see, touch/feel, and manipulate just like every other object in the world. The paper we use today is the product of hundreds of years of iterative design - conscious, and otherwise. Plus, of course, paper never runs out of batteries. I do though believe we eventually will create computers which are as natural for us to use as paper is today.
lisper 9y ago
> Paper is a near-perfect technology Paper is far from perfect, but it does have some features that certain business processes have come to rely on which files lack. For example: the ability to physically bind an authorization (a signature) to the information that authorization is associated with by putting both on the same sheet of paper. Paper also doesn't require batteries. It's much more robust in the face of certain kinds of physical abuse. But paper takes a lot more space to store, and it's a lot harder to transfer from one place to another.

shrimp_emoji 9y ago

What innovations in file storage and manipulation would characterize a progression to the Bronze Age?

vinceguidry 9y ago
I would say when files become easily storable and accessible. Right now untold amounts of human labor are destroyed whenever the computer systems those humans are using fail. When I think about how most people use computers, I get the distinct feeling like I'm watching an episode of Primitive Technologies. Systems like Dropbox are a good first step, but the archival of files is still far too complicated. This stuff needs to be easy enough for your 80 year old grandma to master. I'd say we're probably 20-50 years out. We're eventually going to figure out a basic file format that all applications will use and extend. Then it'll become necessary for all applications to support it. It'll have solved the encoding problem, and it'll have built-in error correction. Sort of a Unicode for file formats. Once that's in place, then cloud storage and backup solutions will finally become useful.
- Splines 9y ago
  IMO one of the problems with cloud storage in general is how complicated it is. There are so many moving parts and so many things that could go wrong that there are inevitably many states a file could be in and asking them to troubleshoot these is impossible. For example, my wife is syncing several GBs of data up to Google Photos as we speak. Periodically, the sync process will complain about something and stop. There is nothing we can do except ask it to exit and we try again. What went wrong? Who knows. We certainly don't. The app UI isn't telling us anything. So we cross our fingers, restart the sync app and hope it works. This isn't the future. "A file" needs to be have the qualities we need as a paper-replacement as an intrinsic property of itself, not conceptual software design properties that are merely abstractions.
- mjevans 9y ago
  I conjecture that error detection (and recovery) are layers beneath the file format it's self. They belong in the filing system and storage layers within/under that. Application code should never need to worry about error recovery. We're kind of close to this for text files, if only Windows and related programs would join the rest of the sane world. Stop adding 'BOM Marks' and just assume everything is UTF-8 (at least for any txt file created after 2000 and all application stdin/out/errs). However the biggest barrier here is a complete disconnect between interested parties. Adobe wants to make money and keeps 'pdf' locked away. It's also bad because paper size is enforced, instead of having an aspect ratio, and positioning for different elements. Even HTML rendering isn't that simple, and NO designer is working using those tools. Additionally that complexity is FAR above what the average user can handle and WAY above what they want to deal with even if they can. Any format which /is/ user friendly will have to support things like 'drawings' / sketches which may or may not be auto OCRed for searching. I'm of the opinion that this won't really be solved until we have //strong// AI to do transcription and formatting for the lazy humans.
- nradov 9y ago
  Dropbox is fine until they go bankrupt or get acquired by another company which isn't interested in acting as your archive.
- fragmede 9y ago
  > We're eventually going to figure out a basic file format that all applications will use and extend. The general trend seems to skip that and is moving towards renting hosted software applications. Google docs is already pervasive in certain corners, and not only can I not tell you what version of Google docs I'm using, but I can't really tell you what its file formats are, or even where it's even actually stored other than "in the cloud". Assuming that trend continues, what, then, even are file formats?
  - vinceguidry 9y ago
    The hiding of file formats behind the application isn't new, but that doesn't make them go away. Should the app ever die, necessitating a migration, then the file formats will suddenly become painfully relevant again. We need a universal file format similar to plaintext but has standards-based extensions for storing data in that all applications can extract to. That way software can finally achieve paper's universality. It's the first step on the road to making information technology truly worthy of the name. The next would be easy-to-use programming platforms. Like Excel or Visual Basic but not shitty.
cryptoz 9y ago
Not the OP, but 98% of the time that someone sends me a .key file for a Mac Keynote presentation, my Keynote application is out of date and cannot open the file. Additionally, it sometimes cannot update either, unless other components are updated, such as the entire OS itself. A bare minimum requirement for me would be, "a computer can be reasonably expected to open the file". Yes, a computer without the correct application installed could not reasonably be expected to open the file. But here is a computer, perfectly capable of displaying the file, but choosing not to do so. Note that these are not files that are created with the new Keynote that I may not have installed. These are normal Keynote files created in the same version I have - but now my version isn't good enough to open files any more, it would seem. A piece of paper would never do that.
- kqr 9y ago
  > Yes, a computer without the correct application installed could not reasonably be expected to open the file. I disagree. I write my presentations in Org. Perfectly readable even to peooole without Emacs. I do my accounting using hledger. Perfectly readable etc. I do my $task using ${plain text format}, peefectly readble even to people without ${tool that helps me format the document nicely}. Etc.
  - gkya 9y ago
    You're part of a minority among a minority. And many institutions require you use some certain application software and file formats.
brendyn 9y ago
I'll cut in rudely with my own reply. Sharing files is unbelievably inconvenient. Sharing files to my mum in the other room involves copying files to a USB drive and moving them manually, after I reformat a USB to ntfs or fat32. It doesn't matter that both of our computers are on a LAN because by default we have no pre-existing convenient ways to share files. With her being on Windows and me being on GNU/Linux, I'm not even sure which program I would pick if I could install one. For anyone that isn't in USB drive proximity, I have to brainstorm a solution every single time I want to share a file for every person I want to give it too. This is all despite the fact that theoretically, there are a million different ways that we could share a file.
- lsadam0 9y ago
  There are numerous better options than a usb drive: Email, cloud storage, almost any messaging client, etc.
  - nradov 9y ago
    Yes well that's kind of the problem isn't it? Too many options and no default cross-platform standard.
    - lsadam0 9y ago
      All of the options I listed are cross platform. Why must a standard exist in this case? FTP is standard and cross platform. This is nothing more than a UX problem.
      - nradov 9y ago
        It's not really practical to run an FTP server on a mobile device.
  - 2muchcoffeeman 9y ago
    Most alternatives are really inadequate, especially for large files. When you are in the same room or even city, I should be able to just move large amounts of data from one computer to a physically adjacent computer without having to go through the internet. For long distance transfers, I agree with various cloud storage. Upload some files and create a share link. But even this is an annoyance for a large file.

BjoernKW 9y ago

While paper used to be the near-perfect technology for storing and distributing non-ephemeral information nowadays this has been turned on its head to the extent that using paper for these purposes has become downright detrimental: Information stored on paper in some filing cabinet in some office for all practical purposes simply doesn't exist. It can't be easily searched, retrieved or accessed by someone who's not in the same room and doesn't exactly know what he's looking for. In other words: That information is lost. Old habits unfortunately die hard, which is why people still seem to be thinking that storing non-ephemeral information or knowledge on paper is a good idea.

JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> It can't be easily searched, retrieved or accessed by someone who's not in the same room and doesn't exactly know what he's looking for To a lot of people in a lot of scenarios, that is a feature. Modern cryptography has yet to match the ease of use, comfort and security of a single piece of paper locked away somewhere only you would think to look.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
vinceguidry 9y ago
Information locked away on some local user's desktop also doesn't exist. If information isn't stored on a dedicated application-specific storage system staffed with people skilled in it's use and repair, then it's the exact same thing. We can't just take information and dump it on a block storage device. It needs proper archival. This is the same with paper, only if you lose the key to your file cabinet or the drawers stop sliding so easily, you can still get at the information. If your RAID backplane dies and you don't know how to fix it, you're in for a bad day. There is a skillset you can learn to work with paper more efficiently. But most people can muddle through without those skills. Not so with digital.

scroot 9y ago

When you read about Kay's Dynabook idea (and get past how the machine mockup looks) you see that he's essentially describing the "computational equivalent" to paper. With such a medium, one could create digital forms as easily as they draw printed forms on paper. And we do not have these types of machines or systems today. Additionally, there is no better read experience than paper. And consider archiving: digital documents are much harder to preserve than paper documents, and this has enormous implications for public policy, history, and democracy.

pishpash 9y ago

Even as display it sucks. Where's the e-paper that was promised decades ago? Paper (and pen) have stood the test of time for thousands of years. Warped tech nuts believe they can be replaced by substandard junk electronics. I'm glad consumers aren't so gullible.

wvenable 9y ago

Paper isn't perfect. For one thing, it costs a hell of a lot more to store paper than to store digital files; we pay a huge amount to store files offsite. And paper used for ephemeral content is inherently wasteful. Paper is slowly but surely going away. We just finished digitizing all our employee records; all records from now on will be digital. We used to print reams of reports and store them in filing cabinets, shelves, etc but we don't do that anymore. We aren't paperless but it's been a slow and steady march for decades now.

jdietrich 9y ago

Office IT is almost uniformly terrible. I see a lot of companies trying to achieve a paperless office, but very few spending the money it takes to make it a reality. Paperless workers need two large high-res monitors, not one crappy 21" 1080p monitor or a laptop with a 1366x768 panel. They need at least one tablet with a decent pen interface. They need a good document management system. They need the training and support to make use of it all.

adamsea 9y ago

And, to add to what you're saying, paper is infinitely easier for people to interact with. It's a physical, tangible object which they can see, touch/feel, and manipulate just like every other object in the world. The paper we use today is the product of hundreds of years of iterative design - conscious, and otherwise. Plus, of course, paper never runs out of batteries. I do though believe we eventually will create computers which are as natural for us to use as paper is today.

lisper 9y ago

> Paper is a near-perfect technology Paper is far from perfect, but it does have some features that certain business processes have come to rely on which files lack. For example: the ability to physically bind an authorization (a signature) to the information that authorization is associated with by putting both on the same sheet of paper. Paper also doesn't require batteries. It's much more robust in the face of certain kinds of physical abuse. But paper takes a lot more space to store, and it's a lot harder to transfer from one place to another.