17 ms·

Why a ‘paperless world’ still hasn’t happened

147 points by charlysl 9y ago

charlysl 9y ago
TLDR: sales decrease in paper for printing & writing more than being offset by Amazon effect (packaging; food and drink too) & tissue.
unangst 9y ago
Analog will always be practical.
vinceguidry 9y ago
It's quite simple. Paper is a near-perfect technology. What replaces it has to be similarly perfect. When people look at what replaces paper, they think screens. Screens are pretty-near perfect too. But screens are not what replace paper. Files are. Screens merely display information, files store it. And file storage and manipulation is still in the Stone Age. It's about as far from perfect as any technology can be. To kill paper you have to make it perfectly easy for people to design applications without it. Because it's already perfectly easy to design applications and systems that use paper. We have to fix software development before we can truly kill paper.
- shrimp_emoji 9y ago
  What innovations in file storage and manipulation would characterize a progression to the Bronze Age?
  - vinceguidry 9y ago
    I would say when files become easily storable and accessible. Right now untold amounts of human labor are destroyed whenever the computer systems those humans are using fail. When I think about how most people use computers, I get the distinct feeling like I'm watching an episode of Primitive Technologies. Systems like Dropbox are a good first step, but the archival of files is still far too complicated. This stuff needs to be easy enough for your 80 year old grandma to master. I'd say we're probably 20-50 years out. We're eventually going to figure out a basic file format that all applications will use and extend. Then it'll become necessary for all applications to support it. It'll have solved the encoding problem, and it'll have built-in error correction. Sort of a Unicode for file formats. Once that's in place, then cloud storage and backup solutions will finally become useful.
    - Splines 9y ago
      IMO one of the problems with cloud storage in general is how complicated it is. There are so many moving parts and so many things that could go wrong that there are inevitably many states a file could be in and asking them to troubleshoot these is impossible. For example, my wife is syncing several GBs of data up to Google Photos as we speak. Periodically, the sync process will complain about something and stop. There is nothing we can do except ask it to exit and we try again. What went wrong? Who knows. We certainly don't. The app UI isn't telling us anything. So we cross our fingers, restart the sync app and hope it works. This isn't the future. "A file" needs to be have the qualities we need as a paper-replacement as an intrinsic property of itself, not conceptual software design properties that are merely abstractions.
    - mjevans 9y ago
      I conjecture that error detection (and recovery) are layers beneath the file format it's self. They belong in the filing system and storage layers within/under that. Application code should never need to worry about error recovery. We're kind of close to this for text files, if only Windows and related programs would join the rest of the sane world. Stop adding 'BOM Marks' and just assume everything is UTF-8 (at least for any txt file created after 2000 and all application stdin/out/errs). However the biggest barrier here is a complete disconnect between interested parties. Adobe wants to make money and keeps 'pdf' locked away. It's also bad because paper size is enforced, instead of having an aspect ratio, and positioning for different elements. Even HTML rendering isn't that simple, and NO designer is working using those tools. Additionally that complexity is FAR above what the average user can handle and WAY above what they want to deal with even if they can. Any format which /is/ user friendly will have to support things like 'drawings' / sketches which may or may not be auto OCRed for searching. I'm of the opinion that this won't really be solved until we have //strong// AI to do transcription and formatting for the lazy humans.
    - nradov 9y ago
      Dropbox is fine until they go bankrupt or get acquired by another company which isn't interested in acting as your archive.
    - fragmede 9y ago
  - cryptoz 9y ago
    Not the OP, but 98% of the time that someone sends me a .key file for a Mac Keynote presentation, my Keynote application is out of date and cannot open the file. Additionally, it sometimes cannot update either, unless other components are updated, such as the entire OS itself. A bare minimum requirement for me would be, "a computer can be reasonably expected to open the file". Yes, a computer without the correct application installed could not reasonably be expected to open the file. But here is a computer, perfectly capable of displaying the file, but choosing not to do so. Note that these are not files that are created with the new Keynote that I may not have installed. These are normal Keynote files created in the same version I have - but now my version isn't good enough to open files any more, it would seem. A piece of paper would never do that.
    - kqr 9y ago
      > Yes, a computer without the correct application installed could not reasonably be expected to open the file. I disagree. I write my presentations in Org. Perfectly readable even to peooole without Emacs. I do my accounting using hledger. Perfectly readable etc. I do my $task using ${plain text format}, peefectly readble even to people without ${tool that helps me format the document nicely}. Etc.
      - gkya 9y ago
        You're part of a minority among a minority. And many institutions require you use some certain application software and file formats.
  - brendyn 9y ago
    I'll cut in rudely with my own reply. Sharing files is unbelievably inconvenient. Sharing files to my mum in the other room involves copying files to a USB drive and moving them manually, after I reformat a USB to ntfs or fat32. It doesn't matter that both of our computers are on a LAN because by default we have no pre-existing convenient ways to share files. With her being on Windows and me being on GNU/Linux, I'm not even sure which program I would pick if I could install one. For anyone that isn't in USB drive proximity, I have to brainstorm a solution every single time I want to share a file for every person I want to give it too. This is all despite the fact that theoretically, there are a million different ways that we could share a file.
    - lsadam0 9y ago
      There are numerous better options than a usb drive: Email, cloud storage, almost any messaging client, etc.
      - nradov 9y ago
        Yes well that's kind of the problem isn't it? Too many options and no default cross-platform standard.
        lsadam0 9y ago
        All of the options I listed are cross platform. Why must a standard exist in this case? FTP is standard and cross platform. This is nothing more than a UX problem.
        nradov 9y ago
        It's not really practical to run an FTP server on a mobile device.
      - 2muchcoffeeman 9y ago
        Most alternatives are really inadequate, especially for large files. When you are in the same room or even city, I should be able to just move large amounts of data from one computer to a physically adjacent computer without having to go through the internet. For long distance transfers, I agree with various cloud storage. Upload some files and create a share link. But even this is an annoyance for a large file.
- BjoernKW 9y ago
  While paper used to be the near-perfect technology for storing and distributing non-ephemeral information nowadays this has been turned on its head to the extent that using paper for these purposes has become downright detrimental: Information stored on paper in some filing cabinet in some office for all practical purposes simply doesn't exist. It can't be easily searched, retrieved or accessed by someone who's not in the same room and doesn't exactly know what he's looking for. In other words: That information is lost. Old habits unfortunately die hard, which is why people still seem to be thinking that storing non-ephemeral information or knowledge on paper is a good idea.
  - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
    > It can't be easily searched, retrieved or accessed by someone who's not in the same room and doesn't exactly know what he's looking for To a lot of people in a lot of scenarios, that is a feature. Modern cryptography has yet to match the ease of use, comfort and security of a single piece of paper locked away somewhere only you would think to look.
    - deleted 9y ago
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  - deleted 9y ago
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  - vinceguidry 9y ago
    Information locked away on some local user's desktop also doesn't exist. If information isn't stored on a dedicated application-specific storage system staffed with people skilled in it's use and repair, then it's the exact same thing. We can't just take information and dump it on a block storage device. It needs proper archival. This is the same with paper, only if you lose the key to your file cabinet or the drawers stop sliding so easily, you can still get at the information. If your RAID backplane dies and you don't know how to fix it, you're in for a bad day. There is a skillset you can learn to work with paper more efficiently. But most people can muddle through without those skills. Not so with digital.
- scroot 9y ago
  When you read about Kay's Dynabook idea (and get past how the machine mockup looks) you see that he's essentially describing the "computational equivalent" to paper. With such a medium, one could create digital forms as easily as they draw printed forms on paper. And we do not have these types of machines or systems today. Additionally, there is no better read experience than paper. And consider archiving: digital documents are much harder to preserve than paper documents, and this has enormous implications for public policy, history, and democracy.
- pishpash 9y ago
  Even as display it sucks. Where's the e-paper that was promised decades ago? Paper (and pen) have stood the test of time for thousands of years. Warped tech nuts believe they can be replaced by substandard junk electronics. I'm glad consumers aren't so gullible.
- wvenable 9y ago
  Paper isn't perfect. For one thing, it costs a hell of a lot more to store paper than to store digital files; we pay a huge amount to store files offsite. And paper used for ephemeral content is inherently wasteful. Paper is slowly but surely going away. We just finished digitizing all our employee records; all records from now on will be digital. We used to print reams of reports and store them in filing cabinets, shelves, etc but we don't do that anymore. We aren't paperless but it's been a slow and steady march for decades now.
- jdietrich 9y ago
  Office IT is almost uniformly terrible. I see a lot of companies trying to achieve a paperless office, but very few spending the money it takes to make it a reality. Paperless workers need two large high-res monitors, not one crappy 21" 1080p monitor or a laptop with a 1366x768 panel. They need at least one tablet with a decent pen interface. They need a good document management system. They need the training and support to make use of it all.
- adamsea 9y ago
  And, to add to what you're saying, paper is infinitely easier for people to interact with. It's a physical, tangible object which they can see, touch/feel, and manipulate just like every other object in the world. The paper we use today is the product of hundreds of years of iterative design - conscious, and otherwise. Plus, of course, paper never runs out of batteries. I do though believe we eventually will create computers which are as natural for us to use as paper is today.
- lisper 9y ago
  > Paper is a near-perfect technology Paper is far from perfect, but it does have some features that certain business processes have come to rely on which files lack. For example: the ability to physically bind an authorization (a signature) to the information that authorization is associated with by putting both on the same sheet of paper. Paper also doesn't require batteries. It's much more robust in the face of certain kinds of physical abuse. But paper takes a lot more space to store, and it's a lot harder to transfer from one place to another.
ashark 9y ago
See also: attempts to replace whiteboards/blackboards.
- pavel_lishin 9y ago
  We bought some Cisco whiteboard thing at work. Great! Collaborative whiteboarding with our team in Austin. Guess what one fucking feature it didn't have? That's right! You couldn't just dial another whiteboard on the network and start immediately drawing together with another person. (Ironically, when I tried to demonstrate this issue to one of our IT folks, the damn smartboard refused to start right up because it needed to install a firmware upgrade - that provided this functionality.)
post_break 9y ago
I just want fax to go away.
- tehlike 9y ago
  What did you use it for last time?
  - tyingq 9y ago
    It's still in big use in many spaces. Like withdrawal from a 401k, or sales orders from a manufacturer, etc. The hinge seems to be that faxes are exempt from PCI/HIPPA and other privacy regulations.
  - leipert 9y ago
    Simple mails are not court admissible in Germany. So if you want to submit something, e.g. a termination of an ISP contract, the best way is a fax.
    - tehlike 9y ago
      That's crazy. Thanks for context.
  - jseliger 9y ago
    In healthcare, all the time: https://www.vox.com/health-care/2017/10/30/16228054/american-medical-system-fax-machines-why https://www.vox.com/health-care/2017/10/30/16228054/american... . Faxes help impede competition and raise provider profits.
    - notlikethis1994 9y ago
      Our healthcare industry seems to be unwilling to leave the 20th century.
      - tehlike 9y ago
        The only aspect that left 20th century is the cost of it.
tyingq 9y ago
Part of it might be generational. I'm older. Any time I'm in a meeting with a presentation, I print it out and make margin notes while the discussion happens. This really increases my recall and understanding of what was discussed. I've tried digital equivalents of this and it just doesn't work the same for me. I have noticed that this type of thing is more prevalent with people in my age group (40+). Writing things down, even if you throw it away right afterwards, seems to increase recall more than typing it.
- scroot 9y ago
  > Writing things down, even if you throw it away right afterwards, seems to increase recall more than typing it. Your intuition here is spot on and backed up by actual research: https://www.npr.org/2016/04/17/474525392/attention-students-put-your-laptops-away https://www.npr.org/2016/04/17/474525392/attention-students-...
- brucephillips 9y ago
  All else being equal, yes. But the larger benefit of using digital notes like org mode is the ability to apply structure to notes that matches your mental model, thus strengthening your mental model. It's hard to do this with paper without erasing.
whack 9y ago
Anyone who thinks the world hasn't gone paperless, really needs to recall how it used to be in the 80s and 90s. - We don't send physical letters in envelopes anymore, we send emails. - We don't send documents via fax or courier, we send them digitally. - We don't apply for jobs by mailing in resumes, we apply online. - We don't file taxes or other applications using snail mail, we send them online. - We don't receive statements and invoices in our mailbox, we get them in our inbox. - We don't send photocopies, we send pictures. - We don't use checks or even currency notes, we use credit cards. - We don't read physical newspapers, we read articles online via HN. - We don't read physical books, we read e-books. Yes yes, I know people still do some of the above things. But the quantity of paper-use for the above has fallen precipitously, and it's falling even further everyday. I still use pen-and-paper occasionally to sketch out my thoughts in an unstructured way, and I do like sending letters as a gesture of my extended effort. But for any kind of business dealing or inter-person interaction, paper is on life-support, and is going to be DOA in another decade or two. And everytime I think of paper statements and requests for photocopies to be mailed in, all I can say is good riddance.
- deleted 9y ago
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- lucideer 9y ago
  > paper is on life-support, and is going to be DOA in another decade or two. I'm not sure what the indicators of this would be, for or against, but extrapolating the current trend to zero seems premature. I can see paper use continuing it's rapid decline, but I genuinely believe it will plateau at a relatively high level. I think paper will always have it's place, in some fashion.
  - lgas 9y ago
    Why do you believe this? I can't imagine paper being used for things like documents or communication 100 years from now at all. I could imagine it still being used for arts but if there aren't other widespread uses for it then it will probably be rare enough to be pretty expensive for artistic usage. I'm also not convinced all that many people will even want to use it for artistic purposes when, by then, you'll have things Google's Tilt Brush but with 100 years of advances on top of it.
mentos 9y ago
If we could snap our fingers and have ultra thin flexible paperwhite lcd sheets how would they be best put to use? I could see binding 100 of them together that you could 'flash' to create a true e-book
- crooked-v 9y ago
  Star Trek comes to mind for me. PADDs, though (ironically enough) bulkier and clunkier than any real-world tablet device today, are treated as basically disposable. Characters are usually shown with one at a time, but it's implied they can get as many as they want, with a few scenes where a character has five or six PADDs laid out to compare different texts in a physical way despite them (presumably) all accessing the same data source.
cmurf 9y ago
I blame the lack of good open source tools for creating and verifying signed PDF (or an alternative format). Faxes are deeply misunderstood, I still occasionally have vendors and clients say "we need an original" or "we need a signature" or some other brain damaging excuse. And these aren't companies in the sticks that don't know it's 2018, these are large (legacy) companies in big cities.
maxxxxx 9y ago
When I look at banks they incentivize you to go back to paper. I signed up for paperless for a while only to realize that they allow you to retrieve online statements only for the last 2 years. If you have a business and need to be ready for an audit, you are better off with paper statements.
TheAceOfHearts 9y ago
Paper is high-tech. We tend to look down on certain technologies just because they're older, but paper and paperless both have pros and cons. There's a chasm of complexity between paper and its alternatives. In addition, we already have tons of experience using paper, along with the knowledge of how it should be handled and preserved. I suspect that much data will be lost due to bit rot, proprietary formats, legacy adapters, DRM, etc. AFAIK, we're still figuring out how long data can be safely stored in many of these newer mediums. IMO, it's highly desirable to have both options available. I don't really want everything I do passing through computers over which I have no control.
TipVFL 9y ago
It's kinda funny, I worked for years as an artist and never used paper and then I became a programmer and I'm drowning in paper. I use post-it notes, notebooks, and loose sheets of paper to track progress, work through concepts, sketch layouts, etc... I'm not sure what it would take to replace that. Working on paper allows me to disconnect from the digital world and concentrate on logic, it also allows me to organize my information physically. Maybe a very advanced augmented reality system could offer me everything there plus the ability to hang my post-it notes in mid-air. I'd give that a whirl.
- Karrot_Kream 9y ago
  > I'm not sure what it would take to replace that. Working on paper allows me to disconnect from the digital world and concentrate on logic, it also allows me to organize my information physically. How about a device not connected to the internet?
  - zormino 9y ago
    I'm similar to the poster you were replying to. I think there are two big reasons I use paper. 1) is that I can very quickly format.my notes however I want, draw diagrams and pictures quickly, there's just no restrictions as opposed to using a text editor or notetaking program. 2) is that when I write things by hand I tend to remember them better, and have an easier time understanding concepts when I sketch them out by hand. I really wish I could replace paper with a suitable program, but so far I haven't found it.
- askafriend 9y ago
  If you've tried the new iPad Pro with Apple Pencil then you'll have your answer. It's fantastic for sketching and taking notes - the new display eliminates all lag between the stylus and the screen. It is an expensive solution for sure, but as that kind of technology becomes cheaper, the use case you describe for paper will be reduced as well.
  - TipVFL 9y ago
    It wouldn't really replicate my multiple notebooks scattered precisely across my table, unless I had like 5 ipads. Also, not really a fan of Apple's mobile ux, so it's not the solution for me. I have managed to get rid of some paper usage by having multiple dry erase boards of various sizes. One digital solution I have considered is something like the boogie board. If you're not familiar, it's basically a 10 inch digital whiteboard that can save the screen to an image and costs around $20. That's cheap enough I could have a pile of them and mostly replicate my current process.
pasbesoin 9y ago
As both an interface (including actively functional, not just passive, e.g. mark-up) and a data store, it still has advantages. Of itself, and in the way we function, cognitively (e.g. spacial orientation). P.S. Thank god they still haven't managed to make it blink at me. Harry Potter and his animated pictures, be damned! ;-)
robbrown451 9y ago
If it were up to me I'd shut down the postal service. Everything I get in the mail could come digitally (such as bills), not at all (freaking junk mail), or via Fed Ex/UPS/Joe's Courier Service (anything someone really, really thinks I need to have physically and wants to pay for). I hate dealing with paper. I especially hate it when it is redundant. Hate it with a passion.
spondyl 9y ago
Could you imagine how much wasted paper comes out of a supermarket in the form of receipts? Most are printed by default then discarded. I reckon at least 10 garbage bags worth of paper a day at least from one store alone. Maybe I'll run some quick numbers later on. Paperless in that case would be gold. Just email my receipts so I can archive 'em because I'll only ever need them in the future, not the present.
throw6555 9y ago
Majority of paper is used as toilet paper while rest of the paper usage is being slowly replaced by digital means. So stop using toilet paper. Use bidets. Having diarrhoea equals many trees ! As long as there is demand for toilet paper, there won't be a paperless world. Western world will find this difficult to admit this, but any counter arguments are welcome.
t1o5 9y ago
Whenever I fill up PDFs for my work visa to the US, I saw paperwork reduction act or something written on the PDFs. I thought it was to reduce paper usage or was it paperwork ?. But in the end, there is always a pile of paper. I would say in the last mile of the process paper is used. I applied for Canadian immigration fully online. But in the end they asked "signed certified photocopies", statements, declarations, consents, affidavits everything in paper with notary's ink seal and sign. Maybe the laws has to change too. Many laws & processes still needs ink seal and signatures. A digital signature or a digital photo is not enough.
basicplus2 9y ago
Why I don't go Paperless.. 1. Only My paper bank statements posted to me are correct. My bank statements printed off from the internet and replacement ones posted out are incorrect. The interest income earned is only shown on the correct dates on the original paper copies posted out, all the others the interest dates are shown in the incorrect month and thus don't match up what should be shown in my income tax return and don't agree with the interest summary by the bank. 2. Only my original posted Credit card statements are guaranteed correct. I have had changes made by the bank IN PREVIOUS FINANCIAL YEARS!!!! on the online versions of my statements, such as changes to amounts paid!!!! Without the original paper copies I could never argue my case.
ArchD 9y ago
Paper seems to have greater weight in court than electronic records, so people keep everything on paper in case they need to show documents in court one day.
thaumaturgy 9y ago
I'm glad the article mentioned ReMarkable. Mine arrived about a month ago and I love it -- carry it everywhere now. It's done a great job of taking care of my need for scratch paper to jot notes on, and it's really kind of an improvement over keeping track of lots of bits of paper or having a separate notebook. It's so far the best of both worlds of paper and electronics. Bit pricey though. https://remarkable.com/ https://remarkable.com/ (I haven't been paid, reimbursed, or otherwise incentivized for this in any way, except that I think it's cool and I want it to be successful.)
kazinator 9y ago
A "pay per less" world has happened; each year you pay the same, but get less.
known 9y ago
I've noticed eGovernance increases paper usage
cube 9y ago
On a side note, I am still looking for a simple solution for paper to archivable, searchable PDFs. The tools coming with my printer/scanner are horrible. Something without the need to compile a million dependencies and setting up a DBMS. Ideal process would be: scan to folder, tool runs cleanup and OCR, creates searchable PDF (perhaps with a nice file name) moves to archive folder, done. Ideas would be more than welcome :)
- jansho 9y ago
  Now this is a startup that I would totally be evangelist for.
pacifika 9y ago
The aim is not to get rid of paper but to use the best tool for the job. So paper still is the best tool but for less and less jobs. We won’t ever need to get rid of paper though.
htkibar 9y ago
When new mediums appear, usually they don't get rid of the previous ones but coexist with them. Besides, paper is really good at some things, changing it just because it is more techy is not something valuable to anyone.
mmcnl 9y ago
My world has been (near) paperless for almost a decade. Perhaps I'm special?
thisacctforreal 9y ago
What do you intend to replace it with? PDFs? If there's to be a universal "digital paper", it would need a lot of planning and agreement. With the amount of churn of stuff in technology these days I don't see anything stable enough to "replace paper" anytime soon. Thinking about this problem reminds me of the transition from linotype machines at the New York Times, to fully computerised systems in 1978. The computer systems are shown at the end of the wonderful documentary 'Farewell, Etaoin Shrdlu' https://vimeo.com/127605643#t=24m55s https://vimeo.com/127605643#t=24m55s The amount of thought and preparation put into those systems, and the thought and preparation put into the change from ink-and-metal to pixels-and-bytes seems remarkable. Perhaps the (lack of) co-ordination between hardware and software today is to blame? Many industries have their IT problems handled with software-only solutions, generally with little thought for what the solution will look like 10--or even 5--years down the road. I would love to hear from people in industries like medical software, and flight software; where thought and preparation is--hopefully--given some budget and priority.

147 points by charlysl 9y ago

TLDR: sales decrease in paper for printing & writing more than being offset by Amazon effect (packaging; food and drink too) & tissue.

unangst 9y ago

Analog will always be practical.

vinceguidry 9y ago

It's quite simple. Paper is a near-perfect technology. What replaces it has to be similarly perfect. When people look at what replaces paper, they think screens. Screens are pretty-near perfect too. But screens are not what replace paper. Files are. Screens merely display information, files store it. And file storage and manipulation is still in the Stone Age. It's about as far from perfect as any technology can be. To kill paper you have to make it perfectly easy for people to design applications without it. Because it's already perfectly easy to design applications and systems that use paper. We have to fix software development before we can truly kill paper.

shrimp_emoji 9y ago
What innovations in file storage and manipulation would characterize a progression to the Bronze Age?
- vinceguidry 9y ago
  I would say when files become easily storable and accessible. Right now untold amounts of human labor are destroyed whenever the computer systems those humans are using fail. When I think about how most people use computers, I get the distinct feeling like I'm watching an episode of Primitive Technologies. Systems like Dropbox are a good first step, but the archival of files is still far too complicated. This stuff needs to be easy enough for your 80 year old grandma to master. I'd say we're probably 20-50 years out. We're eventually going to figure out a basic file format that all applications will use and extend. Then it'll become necessary for all applications to support it. It'll have solved the encoding problem, and it'll have built-in error correction. Sort of a Unicode for file formats. Once that's in place, then cloud storage and backup solutions will finally become useful.
  - Splines 9y ago
    IMO one of the problems with cloud storage in general is how complicated it is. There are so many moving parts and so many things that could go wrong that there are inevitably many states a file could be in and asking them to troubleshoot these is impossible. For example, my wife is syncing several GBs of data up to Google Photos as we speak. Periodically, the sync process will complain about something and stop. There is nothing we can do except ask it to exit and we try again. What went wrong? Who knows. We certainly don't. The app UI isn't telling us anything. So we cross our fingers, restart the sync app and hope it works. This isn't the future. "A file" needs to be have the qualities we need as a paper-replacement as an intrinsic property of itself, not conceptual software design properties that are merely abstractions.
  - mjevans 9y ago
    I conjecture that error detection (and recovery) are layers beneath the file format it's self. They belong in the filing system and storage layers within/under that. Application code should never need to worry about error recovery. We're kind of close to this for text files, if only Windows and related programs would join the rest of the sane world. Stop adding 'BOM Marks' and just assume everything is UTF-8 (at least for any txt file created after 2000 and all application stdin/out/errs). However the biggest barrier here is a complete disconnect between interested parties. Adobe wants to make money and keeps 'pdf' locked away. It's also bad because paper size is enforced, instead of having an aspect ratio, and positioning for different elements. Even HTML rendering isn't that simple, and NO designer is working using those tools. Additionally that complexity is FAR above what the average user can handle and WAY above what they want to deal with even if they can. Any format which /is/ user friendly will have to support things like 'drawings' / sketches which may or may not be auto OCRed for searching. I'm of the opinion that this won't really be solved until we have //strong// AI to do transcription and formatting for the lazy humans.
  - nradov 9y ago
    Dropbox is fine until they go bankrupt or get acquired by another company which isn't interested in acting as your archive.
  - fragmede 9y ago
- cryptoz 9y ago
  Not the OP, but 98% of the time that someone sends me a .key file for a Mac Keynote presentation, my Keynote application is out of date and cannot open the file. Additionally, it sometimes cannot update either, unless other components are updated, such as the entire OS itself. A bare minimum requirement for me would be, "a computer can be reasonably expected to open the file". Yes, a computer without the correct application installed could not reasonably be expected to open the file. But here is a computer, perfectly capable of displaying the file, but choosing not to do so. Note that these are not files that are created with the new Keynote that I may not have installed. These are normal Keynote files created in the same version I have - but now my version isn't good enough to open files any more, it would seem. A piece of paper would never do that.
  - kqr 9y ago
    > Yes, a computer without the correct application installed could not reasonably be expected to open the file. I disagree. I write my presentations in Org. Perfectly readable even to peooole without Emacs. I do my accounting using hledger. Perfectly readable etc. I do my $task using ${plain text format}, peefectly readble even to people without ${tool that helps me format the document nicely}. Etc.
    - gkya 9y ago
      You're part of a minority among a minority. And many institutions require you use some certain application software and file formats.
- brendyn 9y ago
  I'll cut in rudely with my own reply. Sharing files is unbelievably inconvenient. Sharing files to my mum in the other room involves copying files to a USB drive and moving them manually, after I reformat a USB to ntfs or fat32. It doesn't matter that both of our computers are on a LAN because by default we have no pre-existing convenient ways to share files. With her being on Windows and me being on GNU/Linux, I'm not even sure which program I would pick if I could install one. For anyone that isn't in USB drive proximity, I have to brainstorm a solution every single time I want to share a file for every person I want to give it too. This is all despite the fact that theoretically, there are a million different ways that we could share a file.
  - lsadam0 9y ago
    There are numerous better options than a usb drive: Email, cloud storage, almost any messaging client, etc.
    - nradov 9y ago
      Yes well that's kind of the problem isn't it? Too many options and no default cross-platform standard.
      - lsadam0 9y ago
        All of the options I listed are cross platform. Why must a standard exist in this case? FTP is standard and cross platform. This is nothing more than a UX problem.
        nradov 9y ago
        It's not really practical to run an FTP server on a mobile device.
    - 2muchcoffeeman 9y ago
      Most alternatives are really inadequate, especially for large files. When you are in the same room or even city, I should be able to just move large amounts of data from one computer to a physically adjacent computer without having to go through the internet. For long distance transfers, I agree with various cloud storage. Upload some files and create a share link. But even this is an annoyance for a large file.
BjoernKW 9y ago
While paper used to be the near-perfect technology for storing and distributing non-ephemeral information nowadays this has been turned on its head to the extent that using paper for these purposes has become downright detrimental: Information stored on paper in some filing cabinet in some office for all practical purposes simply doesn't exist. It can't be easily searched, retrieved or accessed by someone who's not in the same room and doesn't exactly know what he's looking for. In other words: That information is lost. Old habits unfortunately die hard, which is why people still seem to be thinking that storing non-ephemeral information or knowledge on paper is a good idea.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  > It can't be easily searched, retrieved or accessed by someone who's not in the same room and doesn't exactly know what he's looking for To a lot of people in a lot of scenarios, that is a feature. Modern cryptography has yet to match the ease of use, comfort and security of a single piece of paper locked away somewhere only you would think to look.
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- vinceguidry 9y ago
  Information locked away on some local user's desktop also doesn't exist. If information isn't stored on a dedicated application-specific storage system staffed with people skilled in it's use and repair, then it's the exact same thing. We can't just take information and dump it on a block storage device. It needs proper archival. This is the same with paper, only if you lose the key to your file cabinet or the drawers stop sliding so easily, you can still get at the information. If your RAID backplane dies and you don't know how to fix it, you're in for a bad day. There is a skillset you can learn to work with paper more efficiently. But most people can muddle through without those skills. Not so with digital.
scroot 9y ago
When you read about Kay's Dynabook idea (and get past how the machine mockup looks) you see that he's essentially describing the "computational equivalent" to paper. With such a medium, one could create digital forms as easily as they draw printed forms on paper. And we do not have these types of machines or systems today. Additionally, there is no better read experience than paper. And consider archiving: digital documents are much harder to preserve than paper documents, and this has enormous implications for public policy, history, and democracy.
pishpash 9y ago
Even as display it sucks. Where's the e-paper that was promised decades ago? Paper (and pen) have stood the test of time for thousands of years. Warped tech nuts believe they can be replaced by substandard junk electronics. I'm glad consumers aren't so gullible.
wvenable 9y ago
Paper isn't perfect. For one thing, it costs a hell of a lot more to store paper than to store digital files; we pay a huge amount to store files offsite. And paper used for ephemeral content is inherently wasteful. Paper is slowly but surely going away. We just finished digitizing all our employee records; all records from now on will be digital. We used to print reams of reports and store them in filing cabinets, shelves, etc but we don't do that anymore. We aren't paperless but it's been a slow and steady march for decades now.
jdietrich 9y ago
Office IT is almost uniformly terrible. I see a lot of companies trying to achieve a paperless office, but very few spending the money it takes to make it a reality. Paperless workers need two large high-res monitors, not one crappy 21" 1080p monitor or a laptop with a 1366x768 panel. They need at least one tablet with a decent pen interface. They need a good document management system. They need the training and support to make use of it all.
adamsea 9y ago
And, to add to what you're saying, paper is infinitely easier for people to interact with. It's a physical, tangible object which they can see, touch/feel, and manipulate just like every other object in the world. The paper we use today is the product of hundreds of years of iterative design - conscious, and otherwise. Plus, of course, paper never runs out of batteries. I do though believe we eventually will create computers which are as natural for us to use as paper is today.
lisper 9y ago
> Paper is a near-perfect technology Paper is far from perfect, but it does have some features that certain business processes have come to rely on which files lack. For example: the ability to physically bind an authorization (a signature) to the information that authorization is associated with by putting both on the same sheet of paper. Paper also doesn't require batteries. It's much more robust in the face of certain kinds of physical abuse. But paper takes a lot more space to store, and it's a lot harder to transfer from one place to another.

ashark 9y ago

See also: attempts to replace whiteboards/blackboards.

pavel_lishin 9y ago
We bought some Cisco whiteboard thing at work. Great! Collaborative whiteboarding with our team in Austin. Guess what one fucking feature it didn't have? That's right! You couldn't just dial another whiteboard on the network and start immediately drawing together with another person. (Ironically, when I tried to demonstrate this issue to one of our IT folks, the damn smartboard refused to start right up because it needed to install a firmware upgrade - that provided this functionality.)

post_break 9y ago

I just want fax to go away.

tehlike 9y ago
What did you use it for last time?
- tyingq 9y ago
  It's still in big use in many spaces. Like withdrawal from a 401k, or sales orders from a manufacturer, etc. The hinge seems to be that faxes are exempt from PCI/HIPPA and other privacy regulations.
- leipert 9y ago
  Simple mails are not court admissible in Germany. So if you want to submit something, e.g. a termination of an ISP contract, the best way is a fax.
  - tehlike 9y ago
    That's crazy. Thanks for context.
- jseliger 9y ago
  In healthcare, all the time: https://www.vox.com/health-care/2017/10/30/16228054/american-medical-system-fax-machines-why https://www.vox.com/health-care/2017/10/30/16228054/american... . Faxes help impede competition and raise provider profits.
  - notlikethis1994 9y ago
    Our healthcare industry seems to be unwilling to leave the 20th century.
    - tehlike 9y ago
      The only aspect that left 20th century is the cost of it.

tyingq 9y ago

Part of it might be generational. I'm older. Any time I'm in a meeting with a presentation, I print it out and make margin notes while the discussion happens. This really increases my recall and understanding of what was discussed. I've tried digital equivalents of this and it just doesn't work the same for me. I have noticed that this type of thing is more prevalent with people in my age group (40+). Writing things down, even if you throw it away right afterwards, seems to increase recall more than typing it.

scroot 9y ago
> Writing things down, even if you throw it away right afterwards, seems to increase recall more than typing it. Your intuition here is spot on and backed up by actual research: https://www.npr.org/2016/04/17/474525392/attention-students-put-your-laptops-away https://www.npr.org/2016/04/17/474525392/attention-students-...
brucephillips 9y ago
All else being equal, yes. But the larger benefit of using digital notes like org mode is the ability to apply structure to notes that matches your mental model, thus strengthening your mental model. It's hard to do this with paper without erasing.

whack 9y ago

Anyone who thinks the world hasn't gone paperless, really needs to recall how it used to be in the 80s and 90s. - We don't send physical letters in envelopes anymore, we send emails. - We don't send documents via fax or courier, we send them digitally. - We don't apply for jobs by mailing in resumes, we apply online. - We don't file taxes or other applications using snail mail, we send them online. - We don't receive statements and invoices in our mailbox, we get them in our inbox. - We don't send photocopies, we send pictures. - We don't use checks or even currency notes, we use credit cards. - We don't read physical newspapers, we read articles online via HN. - We don't read physical books, we read e-books. Yes yes, I know people still do some of the above things. But the quantity of paper-use for the above has fallen precipitously, and it's falling even further everyday. I still use pen-and-paper occasionally to sketch out my thoughts in an unstructured way, and I do like sending letters as a gesture of my extended effort. But for any kind of business dealing or inter-person interaction, paper is on life-support, and is going to be DOA in another decade or two. And everytime I think of paper statements and requests for photocopies to be mailed in, all I can say is good riddance.

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lucideer 9y ago
> paper is on life-support, and is going to be DOA in another decade or two. I'm not sure what the indicators of this would be, for or against, but extrapolating the current trend to zero seems premature. I can see paper use continuing it's rapid decline, but I genuinely believe it will plateau at a relatively high level. I think paper will always have it's place, in some fashion.
- lgas 9y ago
  Why do you believe this? I can't imagine paper being used for things like documents or communication 100 years from now at all. I could imagine it still being used for arts but if there aren't other widespread uses for it then it will probably be rare enough to be pretty expensive for artistic usage. I'm also not convinced all that many people will even want to use it for artistic purposes when, by then, you'll have things Google's Tilt Brush but with 100 years of advances on top of it.

mentos 9y ago

If we could snap our fingers and have ultra thin flexible paperwhite lcd sheets how would they be best put to use? I could see binding 100 of them together that you could 'flash' to create a true e-book

crooked-v 9y ago
Star Trek comes to mind for me. PADDs, though (ironically enough) bulkier and clunkier than any real-world tablet device today, are treated as basically disposable. Characters are usually shown with one at a time, but it's implied they can get as many as they want, with a few scenes where a character has five or six PADDs laid out to compare different texts in a physical way despite them (presumably) all accessing the same data source.

cmurf 9y ago

I blame the lack of good open source tools for creating and verifying signed PDF (or an alternative format). Faxes are deeply misunderstood, I still occasionally have vendors and clients say "we need an original" or "we need a signature" or some other brain damaging excuse. And these aren't companies in the sticks that don't know it's 2018, these are large (legacy) companies in big cities.

maxxxxx 9y ago

When I look at banks they incentivize you to go back to paper. I signed up for paperless for a while only to realize that they allow you to retrieve online statements only for the last 2 years. If you have a business and need to be ready for an audit, you are better off with paper statements.

TheAceOfHearts 9y ago

Paper is high-tech. We tend to look down on certain technologies just because they're older, but paper and paperless both have pros and cons. There's a chasm of complexity between paper and its alternatives. In addition, we already have tons of experience using paper, along with the knowledge of how it should be handled and preserved. I suspect that much data will be lost due to bit rot, proprietary formats, legacy adapters, DRM, etc. AFAIK, we're still figuring out how long data can be safely stored in many of these newer mediums. IMO, it's highly desirable to have both options available. I don't really want everything I do passing through computers over which I have no control.

TipVFL 9y ago

It's kinda funny, I worked for years as an artist and never used paper and then I became a programmer and I'm drowning in paper. I use post-it notes, notebooks, and loose sheets of paper to track progress, work through concepts, sketch layouts, etc... I'm not sure what it would take to replace that. Working on paper allows me to disconnect from the digital world and concentrate on logic, it also allows me to organize my information physically. Maybe a very advanced augmented reality system could offer me everything there plus the ability to hang my post-it notes in mid-air. I'd give that a whirl.

Karrot_Kream 9y ago
> I'm not sure what it would take to replace that. Working on paper allows me to disconnect from the digital world and concentrate on logic, it also allows me to organize my information physically. How about a device not connected to the internet?
- zormino 9y ago
  I'm similar to the poster you were replying to. I think there are two big reasons I use paper. 1) is that I can very quickly format.my notes however I want, draw diagrams and pictures quickly, there's just no restrictions as opposed to using a text editor or notetaking program. 2) is that when I write things by hand I tend to remember them better, and have an easier time understanding concepts when I sketch them out by hand. I really wish I could replace paper with a suitable program, but so far I haven't found it.
askafriend 9y ago
If you've tried the new iPad Pro with Apple Pencil then you'll have your answer. It's fantastic for sketching and taking notes - the new display eliminates all lag between the stylus and the screen. It is an expensive solution for sure, but as that kind of technology becomes cheaper, the use case you describe for paper will be reduced as well.
- TipVFL 9y ago
  It wouldn't really replicate my multiple notebooks scattered precisely across my table, unless I had like 5 ipads. Also, not really a fan of Apple's mobile ux, so it's not the solution for me. I have managed to get rid of some paper usage by having multiple dry erase boards of various sizes. One digital solution I have considered is something like the boogie board. If you're not familiar, it's basically a 10 inch digital whiteboard that can save the screen to an image and costs around $20. That's cheap enough I could have a pile of them and mostly replicate my current process.

pasbesoin 9y ago

As both an interface (including actively functional, not just passive, e.g. mark-up) and a data store, it still has advantages. Of itself, and in the way we function, cognitively (e.g. spacial orientation). P.S. Thank god they still haven't managed to make it blink at me. Harry Potter and his animated pictures, be damned! ;-)

robbrown451 9y ago

If it were up to me I'd shut down the postal service. Everything I get in the mail could come digitally (such as bills), not at all (freaking junk mail), or via Fed Ex/UPS/Joe's Courier Service (anything someone really, really thinks I need to have physically and wants to pay for). I hate dealing with paper. I especially hate it when it is redundant. Hate it with a passion.

spondyl 9y ago

Could you imagine how much wasted paper comes out of a supermarket in the form of receipts? Most are printed by default then discarded. I reckon at least 10 garbage bags worth of paper a day at least from one store alone. Maybe I'll run some quick numbers later on. Paperless in that case would be gold. Just email my receipts so I can archive 'em because I'll only ever need them in the future, not the present.

throw6555 9y ago

Majority of paper is used as toilet paper while rest of the paper usage is being slowly replaced by digital means. So stop using toilet paper. Use bidets. Having diarrhoea equals many trees ! As long as there is demand for toilet paper, there won't be a paperless world. Western world will find this difficult to admit this, but any counter arguments are welcome.

t1o5 9y ago

Whenever I fill up PDFs for my work visa to the US, I saw paperwork reduction act or something written on the PDFs. I thought it was to reduce paper usage or was it paperwork ?. But in the end, there is always a pile of paper. I would say in the last mile of the process paper is used. I applied for Canadian immigration fully online. But in the end they asked "signed certified photocopies", statements, declarations, consents, affidavits everything in paper with notary's ink seal and sign. Maybe the laws has to change too. Many laws & processes still needs ink seal and signatures. A digital signature or a digital photo is not enough.

basicplus2 9y ago

Why I don't go Paperless.. 1. Only My paper bank statements posted to me are correct. My bank statements printed off from the internet and replacement ones posted out are incorrect. The interest income earned is only shown on the correct dates on the original paper copies posted out, all the others the interest dates are shown in the incorrect month and thus don't match up what should be shown in my income tax return and don't agree with the interest summary by the bank. 2. Only my original posted Credit card statements are guaranteed correct. I have had changes made by the bank IN PREVIOUS FINANCIAL YEARS!!!! on the online versions of my statements, such as changes to amounts paid!!!! Without the original paper copies I could never argue my case.

ArchD 9y ago

Paper seems to have greater weight in court than electronic records, so people keep everything on paper in case they need to show documents in court one day.

thaumaturgy 9y ago

I'm glad the article mentioned ReMarkable. Mine arrived about a month ago and I love it -- carry it everywhere now. It's done a great job of taking care of my need for scratch paper to jot notes on, and it's really kind of an improvement over keeping track of lots of bits of paper or having a separate notebook. It's so far the best of both worlds of paper and electronics. Bit pricey though. https://remarkable.com/ https://remarkable.com/ (I haven't been paid, reimbursed, or otherwise incentivized for this in any way, except that I think it's cool and I want it to be successful.)

kazinator 9y ago

A "pay per less" world has happened; each year you pay the same, but get less.

known 9y ago

I've noticed eGovernance increases paper usage

cube 9y ago

On a side note, I am still looking for a simple solution for paper to archivable, searchable PDFs. The tools coming with my printer/scanner are horrible. Something without the need to compile a million dependencies and setting up a DBMS. Ideal process would be: scan to folder, tool runs cleanup and OCR, creates searchable PDF (perhaps with a nice file name) moves to archive folder, done. Ideas would be more than welcome :)

jansho 9y ago
Now this is a startup that I would totally be evangelist for.

pacifika 9y ago

The aim is not to get rid of paper but to use the best tool for the job. So paper still is the best tool but for less and less jobs. We won’t ever need to get rid of paper though.

htkibar 9y ago

When new mediums appear, usually they don't get rid of the previous ones but coexist with them. Besides, paper is really good at some things, changing it just because it is more techy is not something valuable to anyone.

mmcnl 9y ago

My world has been (near) paperless for almost a decade. Perhaps I'm special?

thisacctforreal 9y ago

What do you intend to replace it with? PDFs? If there's to be a universal "digital paper", it would need a lot of planning and agreement. With the amount of churn of stuff in technology these days I don't see anything stable enough to "replace paper" anytime soon. Thinking about this problem reminds me of the transition from linotype machines at the New York Times, to fully computerised systems in 1978. The computer systems are shown at the end of the wonderful documentary 'Farewell, Etaoin Shrdlu' https://vimeo.com/127605643#t=24m55s https://vimeo.com/127605643#t=24m55s The amount of thought and preparation put into those systems, and the thought and preparation put into the change from ink-and-metal to pixels-and-bytes seems remarkable. Perhaps the (lack of) co-ordination between hardware and software today is to blame? Many industries have their IT problems handled with software-only solutions, generally with little thought for what the solution will look like 10--or even 5--years down the road. I would love to hear from people in industries like medical software, and flight software; where thought and preparation is--hopefully--given some budget and priority.