16 ms·

Symbols Found in Ice Age Caves Across Europe (2015)

205 points by da02 9y ago

senatorobama 9y ago
Reminds me of the also unbroken Indus script. With all this computational power, I'm surprised that we haven't been able to crack ancient proto-writing.
- ianai 9y ago
  I wonder if anyone’s trying to decipher non human communication (dolphins, elephants).
  - jjtheblunt 9y ago
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/nature/806287/dolphins-speech-whistle-click-language-swedish-start-up-company https://www.express.co.uk/news/nature/806287/dolphins-speech...
    - Jaruzel 9y ago
      They've been claiming this one for years though. However, IF they crack it, it's going to be a game changer; Unlike apes, Dolphins have a much more complex vocal language. As humans we'll be forced to re-evaluate our position on the sentient species ladder. Of course, this'll all be for nought if the Vogons get here first and all the Dolphins disappear.
      - pvaldes 9y ago
        > As humans we'll be forced to re-evaluate our position on the sentient species ladder. I bet that we will just keep trying hard to kill all of them to regain our top position.
  - senatorobama 9y ago
    Cats.. dogs?
- downrightmike 9y ago
  I wonder if our brains have changed so much since then, that we may not be able to comprehend what the symbols originally meant.
  - nurettin 9y ago
    Why would "our brains" change? Because we have tv and phones?
    - williamscales 9y ago
      Nah, because now we have agrarian civilizations as opposed to tribes of hunter gatherers.
      - Viker 9y ago
        That seems just as much of a change as phones and Internet, seen from the perspective of a brain changing... Last time I checked.. Astronauts do not struggle with farming potatoes on Mars?
      - eesmith 9y ago
        Indus script was used by the Indus Valley Civilization, an agrarian civilization.
    - downrightmike 9y ago
      We see the world differently. IE what was a 100 IQ, 100 years ago would be sub standard today because we have new ways of thinking that allow us to do better abstraction. Plus the we've changed how we see the world. Blue is a relatively new color. It is a recent distinction between what most cultures saw as green.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- mistaken 9y ago
  It's also similar to the Old Hungarian alphabet. Some of the symbols seem to be the same. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Hungarian_alphabet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Hungarian_alphabet
  - friendly_chap 9y ago
    That was my impression as well (I am likely biased - I'm Hungarian). What's your nationality if I may ask?
  - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
    They look very much like early British/Norse runes too. Proto-Indo-European (PIE) origins presumably?
- Mediterraneo10 9y ago
  > Reminds me of the also unbroken Indus script. With all this computational power, I'm surprised that we haven't been able to crack ancient proto-writing. Attempts to crack the Indus script with the aid of computers have been made since at least the 1970s (a large Soviet team went to work on it then), but the problem is that the Indus script may not actually encode the sounds of a language. If it is essentially a set of tamgas or decorative elements, then it cannot be cracked. And even if it encodes the sounds of a language, if that language utterly died out and is unknown to scholars today, then even if we know what the sounds were, we probably wouldn’t be able to determine much of their meaning.
  - sd8dgf8ds8g8dsg 9y ago
    > And even if it encodes the sounds of a language, if that language utterly died out and is unknown to scholars today, then even if we know what the sounds were, we probably wouldn’t be able to determine much of their meaning. I feel this conclusion rather weak. As an counter example, consider how the decipherment of the mayan written language was performed [1]. Another one is the hieroglyphs. Re-constructing how mayan words sounded is still on-going [2]. Also, this type of work is not really possible to "crack with computers" as some have suggested (when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail). 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_script#Decipherment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_script#Decipherment 2: https://decipherment.wordpress.com/ https://decipherment.wordpress.com/
    - empath75 9y ago
      The people that decoded the mayan language had the advantage of having several actively spoken maya languages to work from.
    - Mediterraneo10 9y ago
      > As an counter example, consider how the decipherment of the mayan written language was performed That is no counterexample. The Mayan written language was related to a number of surviving languages, making decipherment easier. > Another one is the hieroglyphs. The Egyptian hieroglyphs could not be deciphered until the discovery of the Rosetta stone, where the hieroglyphic text was accompanied by translations into Demotic Egyptian and Greek. Before that, there had been attempts for many centuries to decipher the hieroglyphs but they proved fruitless.
teh_klev 9y ago
Seems to be offline right now, here's a cached version: https://archive.is/oqGa5 https://archive.is/oqGa5
ramgorur 9y ago
Not only across Europe, they are more or less similar all over the world. https://visual.ly/community/infographic/science/prehistoric-writing-stone-age-jottings https://visual.ly/community/infographic/science/prehistoric-...
- deepaksurti 9y ago
  Purely, on a lighter note: 0 - All Time periods 1 - All Time Periods # - All Time Periods Please ensure your password contains at least one digit and one special character! Will we ever change?
  - IncRnd 9y ago
    We've gone from 32 symbols of representation to 32 bits! PS There was also a null symbol. X - All Time Periods PPS Too bad they forgot to write comments, or we would know what all the symbols mean! # - All Time Periods
- jameskegel 9y ago
  I was ready to write this off as early humans ancestors depicting basic shapes of objects in their surroundings, until I got to the upside down and right side up “brush shapes”. I’m not sure what that would mean, something descending and ascending with some type of force or vitesse?
  - anateus 9y ago
    A lot of the signs can be seen as symbols that are easy to draw with the hands. For example, there's the 5-dots and 6-dots symbols. Those are: "every finger of one hand" and "three fingers from each hand". The brush shapes are "bring all fingers together". There may very well be a communicative aspect to the symbols, but I think they were derived from decorative primitives that are kinesiologically-determined.
    - mirimir 9y ago
      That would help account for consistency over place and time. But meaning? I'm guessing something like "# was here".
mc32 9y ago
Haven't watched the linked TED video, but this: >"The fact that the same 32 symbols are repeated across sites that span 30,000 years and an entire content is nothing less than mindblowing. " Is both quite intriguing (if implication is true) but also raises the question of authenticity (if we're unkind) or at least accurate dating (if we're charitable). Maybe the video goes into detail. (Apparently, it's claimed that upwards of 60% of the symbols/signs were expressed during the 30 thousand year span --which seems pretty incredible. I mean, the invariability seems somewhat preternatural.)
gfody 9y ago
Thunderbolts project offers an interesting theory on these symbols https://www.thunderbolts.info https://www.thunderbolts.info
- da02 9y ago
  I was thinking of the same thing before reading the article, but most of the symbols don't appear to be similar to the ones the EU people talk about. I'm surprised and disappointed about this.
- scribu 9y ago
  For anyone else wondering what that site is about, it’s pseudoscience: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Electric_Universe https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Electric_Universe
  - gfody 9y ago
    if you're able to entertain an idea without accepting it, Thunderbolts project has hours of interesting content and some compelling if controversial theories. if the notion that some of your core beliefs are wrong bothers you that much then you'll appreciate the rationalwiki for saving you some time, I guess.
  - michaelsbradley 9y ago
    Thunderbolts definitely has (big!) issues: I would say it's a mix of some under-appreciated but real science and a lot of loose theorizing that lacks the mathematical rigor, data analysis, and peer review needed to back it up. However, the idea that petroglyphs are human drawings of planetary-scale plasma glow discharges is actually a sound theory; and it's not Thunderbolts' theory, in any case. See my comment above: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16015017 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16015017
alexi23 9y ago
These 32 Symbols Found In Ice Age Caves Across Europe
brango 9y ago
The mainstream view of our history has some massive unexplained mysteries. For example the ability of ancient people to work with massive slabs of stone in a way we'd struggle to do now even with modern machinery. Not just the Pyramids and Stonehenge, but the stone foundations at Cuzco and also Baalbeck temple which apparently has foundational stones estimated to weigh 1000 tons.
- justin_vanw 9y ago
  This is just 'ancient astronaut' nonsense. If you gave modern people some incentive to move big stones around without heavy machinery they would figure out how to do it in a couple of months. It's just not hard to do, and people have been moving much larger pieces of stone during recorded history, so we know the techniques used perfectly well. Lots of the obelisks in Rome are far larger than any prehistoric stones moved or worked, and we know how they did it and it's impressive. Impressive isn't the same as an unexplained mystery.
  - brango 9y ago
    Who mentioned ancient astronauts? Archeologists don't seem to be as blasé as you about this: > Nothing puzzles archaeologists so much as impracticality, and although the karst topography of Baalbek demands strong foundation stones, and although one big stone is easier to move than many smaller stones, the pillars holding up the temple’s podium, van Ess says, are bigger than they need to be. In fact, Baalbek is one of a series of ancient projects that are under rigorous study by the Germans for being unnecessarily large. https://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/baalbek-myth-megalith https://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/baalbek-myth-megalit...
    - aleksei 9y ago
      Though it seems they're more puzzled by the "unnecessary" size of the structure rather than transportation of the slabs. Also, somewhat ironically, the posted link mentions ancient astronauts.
    - jacobolus 9y ago
gpvos 9y ago
Slashdotted. Archive link: http://web.archive.org/web/20171227051630/https://digventures.com/2015/12/these-32-symbols-are-found-in-ice-age-caves-across-europe-but-what-do-they-mean/ http://web.archive.org/web/20171227051630/https://digventure...
- Jaruzel 9y ago
  We call it 'The hug of death' here.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - chrisweekly 9y ago
    'slashdotted' works just as well (and is even preferred by many)
    - kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
      Except that Slashdot doesn't have a userbase capable of bringing a server to it's knees anymore.
      - Fnoord 9y ago
        Hardly a unique phenomenon. In society we have so many terms as a nod to their (deceased) inventor(s), or as a nod to a (deceased) person of interest.
        eesmith 9y ago
        "She had her moment in the limelight." - "Limelight" hasn't been used for stage lighting (or anything like it) in over a century. "The application is tied up in red tape." - "Red tape" as a binding for important documents is now little used outside of handful of places. "The company bigwigs fired half the staff." - Once upon a time, people in authority wore wigs as a symbol of authority. Now it's limited to a few legal and parliamentary systems; CEOs and the like don't wear them.
ivanb 9y ago
I find it suspicious that the set of the most common symbols doesn't contain a dick. Why wouldn't the most common modern wall ornament (in my experience) be popular at that time?
- spurgu 9y ago
  People were probably not talking (or telling stories) about their dicks that much, as opposed to something like "man and woman".
  - ivanb 9y ago
    While the symbol may not be very useful for telling stories I think it should still be pretty common because it could be used for "artistic expression", demonstration of dominance, a joke or vandalism.
  - eesmith 9y ago
    FWIW, the Romans draw lots of phalluses. http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1113411682/ancient-romans-drew-penises-on-everything-and-heres-why-122715/ http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1113411682/ancient-roma... contains many examples.
    - hyperdunc 9y ago
      The Ancient Egyptians did too. I recall examples on a temple wall that illustrate decreasing virility (semen volume) as age increases. http://www.seiglefamily.com/2008egypt/IMG_4997%20hieroglyphics%20detail.JPG http://www.seiglefamily.com/2008egypt/IMG_4997%20hieroglyphi...
      - dghf 9y ago
        In the tomb of Ti at Saqqara, in a mural depicting a battle, there is a hieroglyph comprising a stylised phallus entering an even more stylised vulva. It is an insult that one warrior is hurling at his enemy. Apparently it is usually translated, somewhat primly, as "Come here, you copulator"; in his Scorn: With Added Vitriol (a collection of invective across the ages), Matthew Parris prefers the earthier "Come 'ere, you fucker."
randomdrake 9y ago
Maybes mods could add (2015). Seems little more than a regurgitation of the TED talk it links to multiple times entitled “Why are these 32 symbols found in ancient caves all over Europe?” which can be found here: https://www.ted.com/talks/genevieve_von_petzinger_why_are_these_32_symbols_found_in_ancient_caves_all_over_europe/transcript https://www.ted.com/talks/genevieve_von_petzinger_why_are_th...
- da02 9y ago
  You're right. I still thought it was ok to post the link since it does include a nice graphic of the symbols at the start of the article.
jackaroe78 9y ago
Short on Crypto (roughly translated)
pvaldes 9y ago
Michelin Guide for the modern caveman?
dalbasal 9y ago
History keeps getting older..
- sd8dgf8ds8g8dsg 9y ago
  Technically, history begins with the writing system, around 6000 years ago [1]. Before that is what we call "pre-history". 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuneiform_script#Proto-literate_period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuneiform_script#Proto-literat...
istec 9y ago
Hashtag was popular back then :) https://imgur.com/OUDrRjy https://imgur.com/OUDrRjy
- tzahola 9y ago
  The had to invent it, otherwise they wouldn't be able to write shell scripts.
yipopov 9y ago
Top 32 cave symbols that will blow your mind! What these researchers found in caves will amaze you! 32 sure signs you're in a European ice age cave! Discover these cave-dwelling secrets that your real estate developer doesn't want you to know!
- avip 9y ago
  What your archaeologist doesn't know about cave symbols can KILL YOU
  - beamatronic 9y ago
    Stop using THESE cave symbols right now!
  - observation 9y ago
    You may be interested in the podcast audio drama "The White Vault". It's very well produced.
- Houshalter 9y ago
  The only thing clickbaity about it is there is a number in the title. And it isn't a listicle.
jbotz 9y ago
For more substance and less self-promotion, see her master's thesis here: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.929.671&rep=rep1&type=pdf http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.929... There's also a better graphical overview of the signs here: https://frontiers-of-anthropology.blogspot.com.br/2014/08/geometric-signs-from-genevieve-von.html?m=1 https://frontiers-of-anthropology.blogspot.com.br/2014/08/ge...
- Sniffnoy 9y ago
  Non-mobile link for the latter: https://frontiers-of-anthropology.blogspot.com.br/2014/08/geometric-signs-from-genevieve-von.html https://frontiers-of-anthropology.blogspot.com.br/2014/08/ge... (Also the former link seems to be broken?)
hellohal 9y ago
Is this the start of Prometheus??!
amelius 9y ago
What are the corresponding Unicode code points?
- pjc50 9y ago
  Neolithic man did not have unicode; they were forced to make do with UCS-2.
- shervinafshar 9y ago
  Here's a try: Aviform: ︷ U+FE37 PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL LEFT CURLY Circle: ◯ U+25EF LARGE CIRCLE Claviform: 1 U+0031 DIGIT ONE (Or anything confusable with it [1]) Cordiform: U+2661 WHITE HEART SUIT Crosshatch: # U+0023 NUMBER SIGN Cruciform: × U+00D7 MULTIPLICATION SIGN (or anything confusable with it [2]) Cupule: U+26AC MEDIUM SMALL WHITE CIRCLE Dot: · U+00B7 MIDDLE DOT (or anything confusable with it [3]) Half Circle: ◡ U+25E1 LOWER HALF CIRCLE Line: ⎯ U+23AF HORIZONTAL LINE EXTENSION Negative Hand: U+1F91A RAISED BACK OF HAND Open Angle: ⦣ U+29A3 REVERSED ANGLE Oval: ⭖ U+2B56 HEAVY OVAL WITH OVAL INSIDE Positive Hand: U+270B RAISED HAND Quadrangle: ▭ U+25AD WHITE RECTANGLE Serpentiform: U+1F40D SNAKE Spiral: 1F300 CYCLONE Tectiform: ⤉ U+2909 UPWARDS ARROW WITH HORIZONTAL STROKE Triangle: ▽ U+25BD WHITE DOWN-POINTING TRIANGLE Zigzag: ⦚ U+299A VERTICAL ZIGZAG LINE Edit: formatting. [1]: https://unicode.org/cldr/utility/confusables.jsp?a=1&r=IDNA2008 https://unicode.org/cldr/utility/confusables.jsp?a=1&r=IDNA2... [2]: https://unicode.org/cldr/utility/confusables.jsp?a=%C3%97&r=IDNA2008 https://unicode.org/cldr/utility/confusables.jsp?a=%C3%97&r=... [3]: https://unicode.org/cldr/utility/confusables.jsp?a=%C2%B7&r=None https://unicode.org/cldr/utility/confusables.jsp?a=%C2%B7&r=...
walkingolof 9y ago
Its "interesting" how one of these symbols ended up in one of the unresolved cases of project "Blue book". https://imgur.com/NB45sQ6 https://imgur.com/NB45sQ6 It would be a great start of a movie script :)
- sd8dgf8ds8g8dsg 9y ago
  No, that is not even remotely resembling what you claim.
  - walkingolof 9y ago
    Look again, I know the picture isnt the best, but its spot on.
    - IAmGraydon 9y ago
      Ahhhhh no, but you might want to check your confirmation bias.
      - dang 9y ago
        Please don't post snarky dismissals to HN, regardless of how wrong someone else is. It only makes the thread even worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        tqdm 9y ago
        Dang, could you please unban my account? Thanks.
        dang 9y ago
        You weren't banned, but your comments were caught by a software filter. Sorry—new accounts are subjected to extra filters because of past abuses by trolls. We've marked your account legit so this won't happen again. All: it's much better to email issues like this to hn@ycombinator.com, as the site guidelines ask: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. It's pretty random what we do and don't see on the site, but we see all the emails.
mmjaa 9y ago
Every time I see something like this, I'm reminded of one of my favourite crackpot/artists of all time, Stanislaw Szukalski and his mad theories about "Protong", the proto-language of a civilisation that was destroyed by a cataclysm some 65,000 years ago, which - according to him - was the language of the first human civilisation across the globe, and which survived - barely - as a 'forgotten remembered language' in ancient pre-historic glyphs. In a nutshell, "Protong" was the global human language that was spoken across the globe - until the planet suffered an enormous 'flood-like' cataclysm that split this civilisation into shards and pieces around the world. The survivors of this cataclysm clawed their way back to land, and in an effort to warn future humans of the danger, encoded many of the glyphs of Protong into their cave art. Per Szukalski this can be demonstrated by the fact of many common glyphs among a wide distribution of different cave paintings - the fact that the 'neck ring' is a key element in many paintings vastly separated by geographic distances, and the significance of such glyphs as a 'cup or water vessel', and so on. Szukalski believed he was able to decipher these glyphs in a way that hadn't occurred to researchers before him, and he made an entire philosophy out of his personal discoveries. While I still remain highly sceptical of his ideas - and I am especially dissuaded by the racist form of this philosophy that later evolved from Szukalskis explorations into ancient/pre-history art (Zermatism, the idea that the human species is in competition with another race, "Yeti-like", which brings about perpetual downfall among all "noble societies"), I nevertheless remain fascinated by the idea of using "Protong" as a means of appreciating the meaning of pre-history. From the Programmers Mind, its kind of like discovering the mnemonics for machine code, after having spoken nothing but Lua. So, I do wonder if he wasn't onto something with the idea of Protong being an underpinning to all ancient/pre-historic art forms. If this sort of thing is of interest - and I mean it in the most casual sense, because I have absolutely no interest in promoting the racist Zermatism - then I encourage HN readers to have a look at Protong. The book on the subject "Behold - The Protong!!" is a wonderful coffee-table item, if you care for these things. I don't know of any other on-line resources which cover Protong - its a kooky subject indeed, so this is very surprising to me - but I do encourage the casually-interested to have a glance. It may - or may not, indeed - provide a bit of context to understanding pre-historic cave art. As a fan of this, I think its neat. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2118037.Behold_the_Protong https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2118037.Behold_the_Proto... More on Szukalski here: https://www.kookscience.com/arch/Zermatic.html https://www.kookscience.com/arch/Zermatic.html Warning: definitely kook science, but a fascinating though experiment nevertheless.
tzs 9y ago
> Among the elaborate horses, bulls, bears and hunters, there are some other rather less captivating designs – small geometric motifs, etched onto the walls. Until now, they’ve not received much attention. I would have expected the opposite. Someone drawing animals and hunters could easily be explained simply by them drawing what they see everyday. Those other things, though, are harder to explain as merely drawings of things they see.
- michaelsbradley 9y ago
  Not hard to explain: they were simply drawing the glow discharges they saw in the sky. The growing body of theory–research isn't well known yet; for an introduction, see Peratt's groundbreaking paper from 2003: Characteristics for the Occurrence of a High-Current, Z-Pinch Aurora as Recorded in Antiquity http://plasmauniverse.info/downloadsCosmo/PerattTPSv31-2003clr.pdf http://plasmauniverse.info/downloadsCosmo/PerattTPSv31-2003c...
HenryBemis 9y ago
Being respectful to the researcher(s) and her/their work, I was thinking that if this a GoT promo, I would be soooooooo angry (and impressed) :)
timonoko 9y ago
I bet the omnipresent "Sun"-symbol is removed from results, to conform with German Laws and general sentiments. You can find it on Nordic Runes and Tibetan tapestry and American Indian tepee decorations. And it always means "Sun" or "Good Luck" or something positive. Except after 1945 it does not.
- Mediterraneo10 9y ago
  > And it always means "Sun" or "Good Luck" or something positive. Except after 1945 it does not. The swastika was already quite firmly linked with fascism in Europe by the late 1920s.
  - timonoko 9y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotta_Sv%C3%A4rd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotta_Sv%C3%A4rd
  - Ralfp 9y ago
    > The swastika was already quite firmly linked with fascism in Europe by the late 1920s. It wasn't. If anything, it was linked to preservation of tradition and conservatism. I know from my grandparents, who are Polish Highlanders, that it also doubles for holy cross, and thus was used in sacral contexts or on tombstones: https://slowianowierstwo.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/10956059_1081186278573980_3615515725378902038_n.jpg https://slowianowierstwo.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/1095605... https://slowianowierstwo.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/76313_398757823544879_1848103189_n.jpg https://slowianowierstwo.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/76313_3... https://slowianowierstwo.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/1274539_645443875496433_1826066696_o.jpg https://slowianowierstwo.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/1274539... European fascism builds on pride and glorification of national symbols, and reuse of those. For example here's Polish Fascists symbol that dates to '30s: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Green_flag_with_symbol_of_falanga.svg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Green_flag_with_symb... This is arm holding sword, and symbol was created as replacement for original symbol that was legendary sword that first polish king used to strike the gates of Kiev as he was establishing borders of first Polish Kingdom. Likewise symbol of Italian fascists was the Fasces (notice ), roman symbol for power and rule of their government. Spanish fascists used crests of their past royal family, the Falanga: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bandera_FE_JONS.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bandera_FE_JONS.svg Here's Croatian fascists symbol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Usta%C5%A1e_symbol.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Usta%C5%A1e_symbol.svg Swastika was something that Germans adapted for their fascist movement, and it spread from there after the war, but saying that before war the swastika was already firmly linked with fascism is not true.
quadcore 9y ago
they don’t quite seem to form a written language Must be a programming language of some sort :)
jccalhoun 9y ago
could anyone find actual pics of the symbols on cave walls? I spent a few minutes looking and couldn't find any.
meri_dian 9y ago
All the symbols are simple, I wouldn't be surprised if many children around the world scribble similar signs while doodling. It seems likely to me that the signs arose in disparate locations through sheer coincidence instead of through an active Paleolithic common culture or a miraculously preserved memory of some ancient heritage - the ultimate source of the symbols - shared by far flung groups.
brudgers 9y ago
They immediately reminded me of "Hoboglyphs", https://weburbanist.com/2010/06/03/hoboglyphs-secret-transient-symbols-modern-nomad-codes/ https://weburbanist.com/2010/06/03/hoboglyphs-secret-transie...
fsiefken 9y ago
32 = with 5 finger chording or gestures you can get every symbol, should be enough for everybody
Raphmedia 9y ago
This really reminds me of "hobo signs" : http://www.angelfire.com/folk/famoustramp/signs.html http://www.angelfire.com/folk/famoustramp/signs.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobo#Hobo_signs_(symbols) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobo#Hobo_signs_(symbols)
mr_overalls 9y ago
One explanation for the universality of these symbols is that they are entopic images - artifacts of the eye and visual system that are perceived during trance/psychedelic states. Maybe associated with a widespread shamanic religion of this time period? http://entheology.com/research/entoptic-imagery-and-altered-states-of-consciousness/ http://entheology.com/research/entoptic-imagery-and-altered-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mind_in_the_Cave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mind_in_the_Cave
cptkoons 9y ago
Because humans existed and traveled for hundreds of thousands of years (beyond what most average modern folks can conceptualize). We don't fully give ancient peoples enough credit cause they didn't completely fuck the environment up and didn't leave much evidence. Not at all shocking...only our true ignorance being shocking.
cptkoons 9y ago
To under exaggerate this time, one rectangle is drawn inside a cave and another rectangle is drawn inside another cave 1000 years later. 25,000 years later modern man finds these rectangles drawn on the walls and is astonished? Is it not just kinda a given that before speech communication there was drawn image communication (like point at images and grunt)? I mention the 1000 year gap only to point out that they probably moved around and other groups took over caves that were inhabited by other groups before...thus why there are mimicked across europe. ((25000 also being just an arbitrary number for discussion purpose because im not an anthropologist or geologist))
- coldtea 9y ago
  >Is it not just kinda a given that before speech communication there was drawn image communication (like point at images and grunt)? No, not really a given at all. And those are not images -- they form a symbolic language. If we're merely talking about "point to images and grunt" it would concern drawings of animals and stuff, not abstract symbols. Those are already a kind of language. And even if it was, having the same stock library of symbols used more or less across continents and ages is important enough in itself.
pygy_ 9y ago
The signs painted in caves have been preserved to this day but at the time I guess that they were also used outside, on rocks and on trees, and that they were lost to time... With perhaps the exception of dance, the classic arts really are prehistoric mnemonic/communication devices which were made obsolete when writing was invented. They were so useful though that craving them has been carved in our genes, and we still like a good story/song to this day.
- marnett 9y ago
  I had never thought about song, story, and dance in a genetic sense before as you laid out here. Thanks for sharing that.
tomcooks 9y ago
Why link a blogpost when you can link the research itself, or its presentation on ted

205 points by da02 9y ago

Reminds me of the also unbroken Indus script. With all this computational power, I'm surprised that we haven't been able to crack ancient proto-writing.

ianai 9y ago
I wonder if anyone’s trying to decipher non human communication (dolphins, elephants).
- jjtheblunt 9y ago
  https://www.express.co.uk/news/nature/806287/dolphins-speech-whistle-click-language-swedish-start-up-company https://www.express.co.uk/news/nature/806287/dolphins-speech...
  - Jaruzel 9y ago
    They've been claiming this one for years though. However, IF they crack it, it's going to be a game changer; Unlike apes, Dolphins have a much more complex vocal language. As humans we'll be forced to re-evaluate our position on the sentient species ladder. Of course, this'll all be for nought if the Vogons get here first and all the Dolphins disappear.
    - pvaldes 9y ago
      > As humans we'll be forced to re-evaluate our position on the sentient species ladder. I bet that we will just keep trying hard to kill all of them to regain our top position.
- senatorobama 9y ago
  Cats.. dogs?
downrightmike 9y ago
I wonder if our brains have changed so much since then, that we may not be able to comprehend what the symbols originally meant.
- nurettin 9y ago
  Why would "our brains" change? Because we have tv and phones?
  - williamscales 9y ago
    Nah, because now we have agrarian civilizations as opposed to tribes of hunter gatherers.
    - Viker 9y ago
      That seems just as much of a change as phones and Internet, seen from the perspective of a brain changing... Last time I checked.. Astronauts do not struggle with farming potatoes on Mars?
    - eesmith 9y ago
      Indus script was used by the Indus Valley Civilization, an agrarian civilization.
  - downrightmike 9y ago
    We see the world differently. IE what was a 100 IQ, 100 years ago would be sub standard today because we have new ways of thinking that allow us to do better abstraction. Plus the we've changed how we see the world. Blue is a relatively new color. It is a recent distinction between what most cultures saw as green.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
mistaken 9y ago
It's also similar to the Old Hungarian alphabet. Some of the symbols seem to be the same. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Hungarian_alphabet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Hungarian_alphabet
- friendly_chap 9y ago
  That was my impression as well (I am likely biased - I'm Hungarian). What's your nationality if I may ask?
- pbhjpbhj 9y ago
  They look very much like early British/Norse runes too. Proto-Indo-European (PIE) origins presumably?
Mediterraneo10 9y ago
> Reminds me of the also unbroken Indus script. With all this computational power, I'm surprised that we haven't been able to crack ancient proto-writing. Attempts to crack the Indus script with the aid of computers have been made since at least the 1970s (a large Soviet team went to work on it then), but the problem is that the Indus script may not actually encode the sounds of a language. If it is essentially a set of tamgas or decorative elements, then it cannot be cracked. And even if it encodes the sounds of a language, if that language utterly died out and is unknown to scholars today, then even if we know what the sounds were, we probably wouldn’t be able to determine much of their meaning.
- sd8dgf8ds8g8dsg 9y ago
  > And even if it encodes the sounds of a language, if that language utterly died out and is unknown to scholars today, then even if we know what the sounds were, we probably wouldn’t be able to determine much of their meaning. I feel this conclusion rather weak. As an counter example, consider how the decipherment of the mayan written language was performed [1]. Another one is the hieroglyphs. Re-constructing how mayan words sounded is still on-going [2]. Also, this type of work is not really possible to "crack with computers" as some have suggested (when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail). 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_script#Decipherment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_script#Decipherment 2: https://decipherment.wordpress.com/ https://decipherment.wordpress.com/
  - empath75 9y ago
    The people that decoded the mayan language had the advantage of having several actively spoken maya languages to work from.
  - Mediterraneo10 9y ago
    > As an counter example, consider how the decipherment of the mayan written language was performed That is no counterexample. The Mayan written language was related to a number of surviving languages, making decipherment easier. > Another one is the hieroglyphs. The Egyptian hieroglyphs could not be deciphered until the discovery of the Rosetta stone, where the hieroglyphic text was accompanied by translations into Demotic Egyptian and Greek. Before that, there had been attempts for many centuries to decipher the hieroglyphs but they proved fruitless.

teh_klev 9y ago

Seems to be offline right now, here's a cached version: https://archive.is/oqGa5 https://archive.is/oqGa5

ramgorur 9y ago

Not only across Europe, they are more or less similar all over the world. https://visual.ly/community/infographic/science/prehistoric-writing-stone-age-jottings https://visual.ly/community/infographic/science/prehistoric-...

deepaksurti 9y ago
Purely, on a lighter note: 0 - All Time periods 1 - All Time Periods # - All Time Periods Please ensure your password contains at least one digit and one special character! Will we ever change?
- IncRnd 9y ago
  We've gone from 32 symbols of representation to 32 bits! PS There was also a null symbol. X - All Time Periods PPS Too bad they forgot to write comments, or we would know what all the symbols mean! # - All Time Periods
jameskegel 9y ago
I was ready to write this off as early humans ancestors depicting basic shapes of objects in their surroundings, until I got to the upside down and right side up “brush shapes”. I’m not sure what that would mean, something descending and ascending with some type of force or vitesse?
- anateus 9y ago
  A lot of the signs can be seen as symbols that are easy to draw with the hands. For example, there's the 5-dots and 6-dots symbols. Those are: "every finger of one hand" and "three fingers from each hand". The brush shapes are "bring all fingers together". There may very well be a communicative aspect to the symbols, but I think they were derived from decorative primitives that are kinesiologically-determined.
  - mirimir 9y ago
    That would help account for consistency over place and time. But meaning? I'm guessing something like "# was here".

mc32 9y ago

Haven't watched the linked TED video, but this: >"The fact that the same 32 symbols are repeated across sites that span 30,000 years and an entire content is nothing less than mindblowing. " Is both quite intriguing (if implication is true) but also raises the question of authenticity (if we're unkind) or at least accurate dating (if we're charitable). Maybe the video goes into detail. (Apparently, it's claimed that upwards of 60% of the symbols/signs were expressed during the 30 thousand year span --which seems pretty incredible. I mean, the invariability seems somewhat preternatural.)

gfody 9y ago

Thunderbolts project offers an interesting theory on these symbols https://www.thunderbolts.info https://www.thunderbolts.info

da02 9y ago
I was thinking of the same thing before reading the article, but most of the symbols don't appear to be similar to the ones the EU people talk about. I'm surprised and disappointed about this.
scribu 9y ago
For anyone else wondering what that site is about, it’s pseudoscience: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Electric_Universe https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Electric_Universe
- gfody 9y ago
  if you're able to entertain an idea without accepting it, Thunderbolts project has hours of interesting content and some compelling if controversial theories. if the notion that some of your core beliefs are wrong bothers you that much then you'll appreciate the rationalwiki for saving you some time, I guess.
- michaelsbradley 9y ago
  Thunderbolts definitely has (big!) issues: I would say it's a mix of some under-appreciated but real science and a lot of loose theorizing that lacks the mathematical rigor, data analysis, and peer review needed to back it up. However, the idea that petroglyphs are human drawings of planetary-scale plasma glow discharges is actually a sound theory; and it's not Thunderbolts' theory, in any case. See my comment above: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16015017 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16015017

alexi23 9y ago

These 32 Symbols Found In Ice Age Caves Across Europe

brango 9y ago

The mainstream view of our history has some massive unexplained mysteries. For example the ability of ancient people to work with massive slabs of stone in a way we'd struggle to do now even with modern machinery. Not just the Pyramids and Stonehenge, but the stone foundations at Cuzco and also Baalbeck temple which apparently has foundational stones estimated to weigh 1000 tons.

justin_vanw 9y ago
This is just 'ancient astronaut' nonsense. If you gave modern people some incentive to move big stones around without heavy machinery they would figure out how to do it in a couple of months. It's just not hard to do, and people have been moving much larger pieces of stone during recorded history, so we know the techniques used perfectly well. Lots of the obelisks in Rome are far larger than any prehistoric stones moved or worked, and we know how they did it and it's impressive. Impressive isn't the same as an unexplained mystery.
- brango 9y ago
  Who mentioned ancient astronauts? Archeologists don't seem to be as blasé as you about this: > Nothing puzzles archaeologists so much as impracticality, and although the karst topography of Baalbek demands strong foundation stones, and although one big stone is easier to move than many smaller stones, the pillars holding up the temple’s podium, van Ess says, are bigger than they need to be. In fact, Baalbek is one of a series of ancient projects that are under rigorous study by the Germans for being unnecessarily large. https://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/baalbek-myth-megalith https://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/baalbek-myth-megalit...
  - aleksei 9y ago
    Though it seems they're more puzzled by the "unnecessary" size of the structure rather than transportation of the slabs. Also, somewhat ironically, the posted link mentions ancient astronauts.
  - jacobolus 9y ago

gpvos 9y ago

Slashdotted. Archive link: http://web.archive.org/web/20171227051630/https://digventures.com/2015/12/these-32-symbols-are-found-in-ice-age-caves-across-europe-but-what-do-they-mean/ http://web.archive.org/web/20171227051630/https://digventure...

Jaruzel 9y ago
We call it 'The hug of death' here.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- chrisweekly 9y ago
  'slashdotted' works just as well (and is even preferred by many)
  - kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
    Except that Slashdot doesn't have a userbase capable of bringing a server to it's knees anymore.
    - Fnoord 9y ago
      Hardly a unique phenomenon. In society we have so many terms as a nod to their (deceased) inventor(s), or as a nod to a (deceased) person of interest.
      - eesmith 9y ago
        "She had her moment in the limelight." - "Limelight" hasn't been used for stage lighting (or anything like it) in over a century. "The application is tied up in red tape." - "Red tape" as a binding for important documents is now little used outside of handful of places. "The company bigwigs fired half the staff." - Once upon a time, people in authority wore wigs as a symbol of authority. Now it's limited to a few legal and parliamentary systems; CEOs and the like don't wear them.

ivanb 9y ago

I find it suspicious that the set of the most common symbols doesn't contain a dick. Why wouldn't the most common modern wall ornament (in my experience) be popular at that time?

spurgu 9y ago
People were probably not talking (or telling stories) about their dicks that much, as opposed to something like "man and woman".
- ivanb 9y ago
  While the symbol may not be very useful for telling stories I think it should still be pretty common because it could be used for "artistic expression", demonstration of dominance, a joke or vandalism.
- eesmith 9y ago
  FWIW, the Romans draw lots of phalluses. http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1113411682/ancient-romans-drew-penises-on-everything-and-heres-why-122715/ http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1113411682/ancient-roma... contains many examples.
  - hyperdunc 9y ago
    The Ancient Egyptians did too. I recall examples on a temple wall that illustrate decreasing virility (semen volume) as age increases. http://www.seiglefamily.com/2008egypt/IMG_4997%20hieroglyphics%20detail.JPG http://www.seiglefamily.com/2008egypt/IMG_4997%20hieroglyphi...
    - dghf 9y ago
      In the tomb of Ti at Saqqara, in a mural depicting a battle, there is a hieroglyph comprising a stylised phallus entering an even more stylised vulva. It is an insult that one warrior is hurling at his enemy. Apparently it is usually translated, somewhat primly, as "Come here, you copulator"; in his Scorn: With Added Vitriol (a collection of invective across the ages), Matthew Parris prefers the earthier "Come 'ere, you fucker."

randomdrake 9y ago

Maybes mods could add (2015). Seems little more than a regurgitation of the TED talk it links to multiple times entitled “Why are these 32 symbols found in ancient caves all over Europe?” which can be found here: https://www.ted.com/talks/genevieve_von_petzinger_why_are_these_32_symbols_found_in_ancient_caves_all_over_europe/transcript https://www.ted.com/talks/genevieve_von_petzinger_why_are_th...

da02 9y ago
You're right. I still thought it was ok to post the link since it does include a nice graphic of the symbols at the start of the article.

jackaroe78 9y ago

Short on Crypto (roughly translated)

pvaldes 9y ago

Michelin Guide for the modern caveman?

dalbasal 9y ago

History keeps getting older..

sd8dgf8ds8g8dsg 9y ago
Technically, history begins with the writing system, around 6000 years ago [1]. Before that is what we call "pre-history". 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuneiform_script#Proto-literate_period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuneiform_script#Proto-literat...

istec 9y ago

Hashtag was popular back then :) https://imgur.com/OUDrRjy https://imgur.com/OUDrRjy

tzahola 9y ago
The had to invent it, otherwise they wouldn't be able to write shell scripts.

yipopov 9y ago

Top 32 cave symbols that will blow your mind! What these researchers found in caves will amaze you! 32 sure signs you're in a European ice age cave! Discover these cave-dwelling secrets that your real estate developer doesn't want you to know!

avip 9y ago
What your archaeologist doesn't know about cave symbols can KILL YOU
- beamatronic 9y ago
  Stop using THESE cave symbols right now!
- observation 9y ago
  You may be interested in the podcast audio drama "The White Vault". It's very well produced.
Houshalter 9y ago
The only thing clickbaity about it is there is a number in the title. And it isn't a listicle.

jbotz 9y ago

For more substance and less self-promotion, see her master's thesis here: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.929.671&rep=rep1&type=pdf http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.929... There's also a better graphical overview of the signs here: https://frontiers-of-anthropology.blogspot.com.br/2014/08/geometric-signs-from-genevieve-von.html?m=1 https://frontiers-of-anthropology.blogspot.com.br/2014/08/ge...

Sniffnoy 9y ago
Non-mobile link for the latter: https://frontiers-of-anthropology.blogspot.com.br/2014/08/geometric-signs-from-genevieve-von.html https://frontiers-of-anthropology.blogspot.com.br/2014/08/ge... (Also the former link seems to be broken?)

hellohal 9y ago

Is this the start of Prometheus??!

amelius 9y ago

What are the corresponding Unicode code points?

pjc50 9y ago
Neolithic man did not have unicode; they were forced to make do with UCS-2.
shervinafshar 9y ago
Here's a try: Aviform: ︷ U+FE37 PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL LEFT CURLY Circle: ◯ U+25EF LARGE CIRCLE Claviform: 1 U+0031 DIGIT ONE (Or anything confusable with it [1]) Cordiform: U+2661 WHITE HEART SUIT Crosshatch: # U+0023 NUMBER SIGN Cruciform: × U+00D7 MULTIPLICATION SIGN (or anything confusable with it [2]) Cupule: U+26AC MEDIUM SMALL WHITE CIRCLE Dot: · U+00B7 MIDDLE DOT (or anything confusable with it [3]) Half Circle: ◡ U+25E1 LOWER HALF CIRCLE Line: ⎯ U+23AF HORIZONTAL LINE EXTENSION Negative Hand: U+1F91A RAISED BACK OF HAND Open Angle: ⦣ U+29A3 REVERSED ANGLE Oval: ⭖ U+2B56 HEAVY OVAL WITH OVAL INSIDE Positive Hand: U+270B RAISED HAND Quadrangle: ▭ U+25AD WHITE RECTANGLE Serpentiform: U+1F40D SNAKE Spiral: 1F300 CYCLONE Tectiform: ⤉ U+2909 UPWARDS ARROW WITH HORIZONTAL STROKE Triangle: ▽ U+25BD WHITE DOWN-POINTING TRIANGLE Zigzag: ⦚ U+299A VERTICAL ZIGZAG LINE Edit: formatting. [1]: https://unicode.org/cldr/utility/confusables.jsp?a=1&r=IDNA2008 https://unicode.org/cldr/utility/confusables.jsp?a=1&r=IDNA2... [2]: https://unicode.org/cldr/utility/confusables.jsp?a=%C3%97&r=IDNA2008 https://unicode.org/cldr/utility/confusables.jsp?a=%C3%97&r=... [3]: https://unicode.org/cldr/utility/confusables.jsp?a=%C2%B7&r=None https://unicode.org/cldr/utility/confusables.jsp?a=%C2%B7&r=...

walkingolof 9y ago

Its "interesting" how one of these symbols ended up in one of the unresolved cases of project "Blue book". https://imgur.com/NB45sQ6 https://imgur.com/NB45sQ6 It would be a great start of a movie script :)

sd8dgf8ds8g8dsg 9y ago
No, that is not even remotely resembling what you claim.
- walkingolof 9y ago
  Look again, I know the picture isnt the best, but its spot on.
  - IAmGraydon 9y ago
    Ahhhhh no, but you might want to check your confirmation bias.
    - dang 9y ago
      Please don't post snarky dismissals to HN, regardless of how wrong someone else is. It only makes the thread even worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - tqdm 9y ago
        Dang, could you please unban my account? Thanks.
        dang 9y ago
        You weren't banned, but your comments were caught by a software filter. Sorry—new accounts are subjected to extra filters because of past abuses by trolls. We've marked your account legit so this won't happen again. All: it's much better to email issues like this to hn@ycombinator.com, as the site guidelines ask: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. It's pretty random what we do and don't see on the site, but we see all the emails.

mmjaa 9y ago

Every time I see something like this, I'm reminded of one of my favourite crackpot/artists of all time, Stanislaw Szukalski and his mad theories about "Protong", the proto-language of a civilisation that was destroyed by a cataclysm some 65,000 years ago, which - according to him - was the language of the first human civilisation across the globe, and which survived - barely - as a 'forgotten remembered language' in ancient pre-historic glyphs. In a nutshell, "Protong" was the global human language that was spoken across the globe - until the planet suffered an enormous 'flood-like' cataclysm that split this civilisation into shards and pieces around the world. The survivors of this cataclysm clawed their way back to land, and in an effort to warn future humans of the danger, encoded many of the glyphs of Protong into their cave art. Per Szukalski this can be demonstrated by the fact of many common glyphs among a wide distribution of different cave paintings - the fact that the 'neck ring' is a key element in many paintings vastly separated by geographic distances, and the significance of such glyphs as a 'cup or water vessel', and so on. Szukalski believed he was able to decipher these glyphs in a way that hadn't occurred to researchers before him, and he made an entire philosophy out of his personal discoveries. While I still remain highly sceptical of his ideas - and I am especially dissuaded by the racist form of this philosophy that later evolved from Szukalskis explorations into ancient/pre-history art (Zermatism, the idea that the human species is in competition with another race, "Yeti-like", which brings about perpetual downfall among all "noble societies"), I nevertheless remain fascinated by the idea of using "Protong" as a means of appreciating the meaning of pre-history. From the Programmers Mind, its kind of like discovering the mnemonics for machine code, after having spoken nothing but Lua. So, I do wonder if he wasn't onto something with the idea of Protong being an underpinning to all ancient/pre-historic art forms. If this sort of thing is of interest - and I mean it in the most casual sense, because I have absolutely no interest in promoting the racist Zermatism - then I encourage HN readers to have a look at Protong. The book on the subject "Behold - The Protong!!" is a wonderful coffee-table item, if you care for these things. I don't know of any other on-line resources which cover Protong - its a kooky subject indeed, so this is very surprising to me - but I do encourage the casually-interested to have a glance. It may - or may not, indeed - provide a bit of context to understanding pre-historic cave art. As a fan of this, I think its neat. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2118037.Behold_the_Protong https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2118037.Behold_the_Proto... More on Szukalski here: https://www.kookscience.com/arch/Zermatic.html https://www.kookscience.com/arch/Zermatic.html Warning: definitely kook science, but a fascinating though experiment nevertheless.

tzs 9y ago

> Among the elaborate horses, bulls, bears and hunters, there are some other rather less captivating designs – small geometric motifs, etched onto the walls. Until now, they’ve not received much attention. I would have expected the opposite. Someone drawing animals and hunters could easily be explained simply by them drawing what they see everyday. Those other things, though, are harder to explain as merely drawings of things they see.

michaelsbradley 9y ago
Not hard to explain: they were simply drawing the glow discharges they saw in the sky. The growing body of theory–research isn't well known yet; for an introduction, see Peratt's groundbreaking paper from 2003: Characteristics for the Occurrence of a High-Current, Z-Pinch Aurora as Recorded in Antiquity http://plasmauniverse.info/downloadsCosmo/PerattTPSv31-2003clr.pdf http://plasmauniverse.info/downloadsCosmo/PerattTPSv31-2003c...

HenryBemis 9y ago

Being respectful to the researcher(s) and her/their work, I was thinking that if this a GoT promo, I would be soooooooo angry (and impressed) :)

timonoko 9y ago

I bet the omnipresent "Sun"-symbol is removed from results, to conform with German Laws and general sentiments. You can find it on Nordic Runes and Tibetan tapestry and American Indian tepee decorations. And it always means "Sun" or "Good Luck" or something positive. Except after 1945 it does not.

Mediterraneo10 9y ago
> And it always means "Sun" or "Good Luck" or something positive. Except after 1945 it does not. The swastika was already quite firmly linked with fascism in Europe by the late 1920s.
- timonoko 9y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotta_Sv%C3%A4rd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotta_Sv%C3%A4rd
- Ralfp 9y ago
  > The swastika was already quite firmly linked with fascism in Europe by the late 1920s. It wasn't. If anything, it was linked to preservation of tradition and conservatism. I know from my grandparents, who are Polish Highlanders, that it also doubles for holy cross, and thus was used in sacral contexts or on tombstones: https://slowianowierstwo.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/10956059_1081186278573980_3615515725378902038_n.jpg https://slowianowierstwo.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/1095605... https://slowianowierstwo.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/76313_398757823544879_1848103189_n.jpg https://slowianowierstwo.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/76313_3... https://slowianowierstwo.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/1274539_645443875496433_1826066696_o.jpg https://slowianowierstwo.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/1274539... European fascism builds on pride and glorification of national symbols, and reuse of those. For example here's Polish Fascists symbol that dates to '30s: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Green_flag_with_symbol_of_falanga.svg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Green_flag_with_symb... This is arm holding sword, and symbol was created as replacement for original symbol that was legendary sword that first polish king used to strike the gates of Kiev as he was establishing borders of first Polish Kingdom. Likewise symbol of Italian fascists was the Fasces (notice ), roman symbol for power and rule of their government. Spanish fascists used crests of their past royal family, the Falanga: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bandera_FE_JONS.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bandera_FE_JONS.svg Here's Croatian fascists symbol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Usta%C5%A1e_symbol.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Usta%C5%A1e_symbol.svg Swastika was something that Germans adapted for their fascist movement, and it spread from there after the war, but saying that before war the swastika was already firmly linked with fascism is not true.

quadcore 9y ago

they don’t quite seem to form a written language Must be a programming language of some sort :)

jccalhoun 9y ago

could anyone find actual pics of the symbols on cave walls? I spent a few minutes looking and couldn't find any.

meri_dian 9y ago

All the symbols are simple, I wouldn't be surprised if many children around the world scribble similar signs while doodling. It seems likely to me that the signs arose in disparate locations through sheer coincidence instead of through an active Paleolithic common culture or a miraculously preserved memory of some ancient heritage - the ultimate source of the symbols - shared by far flung groups.

brudgers 9y ago

They immediately reminded me of "Hoboglyphs", https://weburbanist.com/2010/06/03/hoboglyphs-secret-transient-symbols-modern-nomad-codes/ https://weburbanist.com/2010/06/03/hoboglyphs-secret-transie...

fsiefken 9y ago

32 = with 5 finger chording or gestures you can get every symbol, should be enough for everybody

Raphmedia 9y ago

This really reminds me of "hobo signs" : http://www.angelfire.com/folk/famoustramp/signs.html http://www.angelfire.com/folk/famoustramp/signs.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobo#Hobo_signs_(symbols) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobo#Hobo_signs_(symbols)

mr_overalls 9y ago

One explanation for the universality of these symbols is that they are entopic images - artifacts of the eye and visual system that are perceived during trance/psychedelic states. Maybe associated with a widespread shamanic religion of this time period? http://entheology.com/research/entoptic-imagery-and-altered-states-of-consciousness/ http://entheology.com/research/entoptic-imagery-and-altered-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mind_in_the_Cave https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mind_in_the_Cave

cptkoons 9y ago

Because humans existed and traveled for hundreds of thousands of years (beyond what most average modern folks can conceptualize). We don't fully give ancient peoples enough credit cause they didn't completely fuck the environment up and didn't leave much evidence. Not at all shocking...only our true ignorance being shocking.

cptkoons 9y ago

To under exaggerate this time, one rectangle is drawn inside a cave and another rectangle is drawn inside another cave 1000 years later. 25,000 years later modern man finds these rectangles drawn on the walls and is astonished? Is it not just kinda a given that before speech communication there was drawn image communication (like point at images and grunt)? I mention the 1000 year gap only to point out that they probably moved around and other groups took over caves that were inhabited by other groups before...thus why there are mimicked across europe. ((25000 also being just an arbitrary number for discussion purpose because im not an anthropologist or geologist))

coldtea 9y ago
>Is it not just kinda a given that before speech communication there was drawn image communication (like point at images and grunt)? No, not really a given at all. And those are not images -- they form a symbolic language. If we're merely talking about "point to images and grunt" it would concern drawings of animals and stuff, not abstract symbols. Those are already a kind of language. And even if it was, having the same stock library of symbols used more or less across continents and ages is important enough in itself.

pygy_ 9y ago

The signs painted in caves have been preserved to this day but at the time I guess that they were also used outside, on rocks and on trees, and that they were lost to time... With perhaps the exception of dance, the classic arts really are prehistoric mnemonic/communication devices which were made obsolete when writing was invented. They were so useful though that craving them has been carved in our genes, and we still like a good story/song to this day.

marnett 9y ago
I had never thought about song, story, and dance in a genetic sense before as you laid out here. Thanks for sharing that.

tomcooks 9y ago

Why link a blogpost when you can link the research itself, or its presentation on ted