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Selling Bitcoins in Canada
- sbierwagen 9y ago"Important note: This narrative applies specifically to exchanging BTC for Canadian dollars, in Canada. Some lessons may apply in other jurisdictions."
- sunwooz 9y agoThe more interesting part of the post is in the 'Why I did it' section. I'd be interested to hear what others have to say on the topic considering I was about to invest some money into cryptos.
- defen 9y agoI think a healthy step 0 for anyone is to get into the mindset that you're not "investing" into cryptos, you're speculating or gambling.
- jonny_eh 9y agoAbsolutely true, but that's also the case of most stock trading. If you're not buying a stock expecting dividends, but instead hoping to just sell it for more later, that's not much different than speculating on BTC.
- scott_s 9y agoI think that buying into stock index funds expecting to sell your shares for more in several decades is different than speculating on BTC.
- djKianoosh 9y agowhat makes one index fund better than another?
- scott_s 9y agoNot much! Which is the point. You choose index funds based on lower expense ratio, how spread they are in the market (more spread means lower risk and more likely to just replicate performance of the overall market; less spread means higher risk and less likely to replicate the performance of the overall market), and how much you trust the institution running it.
- lurr 9y agoExcept I can buy a stock expecting it to increase on the merits of what the company is doing. I could have bought stock in Apple the day I saw an iPhone for the first time, and would have made money off it.
- justincormack 9y agobitcoin is not making an iphone, there are no fundamentals. But what you describe is still gambling.
- vkou 9y agoHolding USD is another form of gambling. Buying a house to live in is gambling. The thing is that USD can be used to pay taxes in April, a house provides you shelter, a share of APPL entitles you to small fraction of the company... And a bitcoin entitles you to a mathematical number, with nothing backing it.
- mthoms 9y agoBoth Bitcoin and AAPL stock carry a risk of losing money due to unknowable future events. Therefore aren't they both gambling? It seems to me that it's just the degree of risk that varies.
- fnovd 9y agoBitcoin isn't growing in value because it represents shares of a business that makes real money: it's growing in value because demand is increasing. You can directly connect AAPL's profitability with the value of the phones and computers they produce. Bitcoin does not have such an analogue. The "asset" behind Bitcoin is one part the group of miners who consider to keep the ledger going, one part the ability to facilitate a trade using that shared ledger, and three parts speculation. It's the speculative component that makes it, and all other cryptocurrency, more gambling than investment.
- mthoms 9y ago
- tw04 9y agoThat's not even remotely true. Stocks are directly tied to the performance of a company providing goods or services. There's something you can directly gauge. At BEST you could equate it to currency trading, but even THAT is tied to real-world governments and their policies nine times out of ten. Bitcoin is literally trading on the belief that a bunch of people are going to switch to it instead of the dollar or insert your currency of choice because...?
- mthoms 9y ago> That's not even remotely true. Stocks are directly tied to the performance of a company providing goods or services. There's something you can directly gauge. I'm no stock expert but isn't the majority of a stock's value due to speculation on what it will be worth one day in the future? I think the parent made a valid point. Sure, stocks are generally easier to "gauge" (and therefore lower risk) but you're still just speculating that it's future price will be greater than it's current price after all. Low-risk gambling is still gambling isn't it?
- AlexandrB 9y ago> I'm no stock expert but isn't the majority of a stock's value due to speculation on what it will be worth one day in the future? That's true, but stock can represent a portion of an asset with production potential. A factory or a mine or a dot-com. Bitcoin is pure fiat money. If I owned all stock in AAPL, I would own one of the most valuable companies in the world which would yield me several billion USD in profits every year. If I owned all bitcoins my asset would be completely worthless because there would be no market for it. I defer to Warren Buffett's quote [1] on Gold - an asset similar in it's uselessness: > Today the world's gold stock is about 170,000 metric tons. If all of this gold were melded together, it would form a cube of about 68 feet per side. (Picture it fitting comfortably within a baseball infield.) At $1,750 per ounce -- gold's price as I write this -- its value would be $9.6 trillion. Call this cube pile A. > Let's now create a pile B costing an equal amount. For that, we could buy all U.S. cropland (400 million acres with output of about $200 billion annually), plus 16 Exxon Mobils (the world's most profitable company, one earning more than $40 billion annually). After these purchases, we would have about $1 trillion left over for walking-aroundmoney (no sense feeling strapped after this buying binge). Can you imagine an investor with $9.6 trillion selecting pile A over pile B? [1] http://www.nasdaq.com/article/why-warren-buffett-hates-gold-cm267928 http://www.nasdaq.com/article/why-warren-buffett-hates-gold-...
- mancerayder 9y agoYes, especially if you trade stocks on a short-term basis. Stocks can be long, rational plays based upon performance, evaluation, analysis of quarterly results and news clippings. But they can also be greedy speculation. They are both of these things. Something the 'Bitcoin isn't based on anything asset wise' crowd forgets. Even if they're right in that statement.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- oreo81 9y agoJust stop, you have no idea their intentions so don't assume they're gambling.
- defen 9y agoIntentions don't matter; it's a function of the underlying asset. The worst stock market crash in US history was Black Monday in 1987 which resulted in a 22.6% drop in the DJA. Bitcoin has already experienced much worse crashes than that, multiple times (like the time it dropped 94% in 2011). I'm not saying don't put money into Bitcoin/cryptos; I'm saying don't put in more than you would feel comfortable losing at a casino.
- oreo81 9y agoIntentions do matter though, it's not about the money to some people. Some people understand how revolutionary a decentralized economy would be and want to take part in trying to implement something they believe in. If it's all about making a quick buck then yes, it's gambling. Don't assume money is everything to everyone. I don't feel comfortable losing any money at a casino, that money goes to an industry that I don't care to support; But I'd be fine losing money in crypto because It's something I want to support.
- saalweachter 9y agoSerious question. How does buying and holding Bitcoin promote a decentralized economy?
- sbierwagen 9y agoI like Matt Levine's take: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-11-30/bitcoin-frenzy-and-trendy-computers https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-11-30/bitcoin-f... >The main question is: In one or five or 50 years, will everyone on earth want to use bitcoin, or a lot of people, or a few people, or nobody? There are no fundamentals, no cash flows or price-earnings ratios, to evaluate. It is pure speculation about speculation, a Keynesian beauty contest where all the pictures are blank. >[...] >Arguments about bitcoin are like every other shouty argument about financial markets, but with a void at their core. "Bitcoin is capitalism, distilled," says Adam Ludwin, but it isn't quite; bitcoin traders are not allocating capital to productive uses in the real world. Bitcoin is finance, distilled, though, in the narrow sense that the distillation throws away all the messy productive real-world consequences of finance and leaves you with just an abstract thing to trade.
- Steeeve 9y agoIf you are the 12,000th player in the pyramid scheme it doesn't end well.
- jacquesm 9y agoThat depends on how big the pool of potential players is and how much money they're prepared to put into the scheme.
- jraedisch 9y agoFor me the reason to sell at the moment is quite banal: I do not want to spend time thinking about investing over the holidays, and I do not want to feel like I should pick out my phone.
- mudil 9y agoYou see, it's not easy to sell.
- gvb 9y agoThanks, I added that to the title to make it clearer.
- gormo2 9y agoFUDing BTC and shilling Ripple? Why the *heck is this #5 on the front of HN? Come on.
- rb666 9y agoOne semi-positive mention of Ripple in a long article about selling BTC and someone is immediately a shill? Please be reasonable.
- dang 9y agoWould you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to HN? You've done it quite a bit and we eventually ban accounts that do that. If you have a substantive point to make, make it thoughtfully; if you don't, please don't comment until you do. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- hartator 9y agoOn a side note, I am trying to sell my very little stack of LTC - 7.04 - for like a week or 2. Gdax never works - the ID validation is always down - and I haven't found any other solutions. Any ideas? Cryptos are not liquid at all.
- twalla 9y agoI've never trusted the MFA for transfers on GDAX, what I do is transfer to my Coinbase account and then create a bank transfer there where, for some reason, their MFA mysteriously works.
- agumonkey 9y agoTook me a week before ID check worked (more than timeout, it also forgot my data uploads 3 times.. not reassuring). One day I got a mail saying I was in. some use localbitcoins to sell hand to hand (never used it).
- rakoo 9y agoI'm using Kraken myself, and have found it to be working as expected, except it's just really slow.
- brepl 9y agoDollar prices for selling e.g. ETH seem 10-20% lower than market.
- dahdum 9y agoThere is always some sort of spread because arbing has fees, but 10-20% is unheard - had to be a momentary difference. I'm seeing $766 Kraken vs $789 GDAX right now. Both are easy to get USD in/out of* so pretty comparable. * Before they started adding 50k/users a day and became so backlogged.
- conception 9y agoMaaaaaybe https://changex.com/exchange/LTC-PPUSD https://changex.com/exchange/LTC-PPUSD? Haven't tried it personally.
- maxander 9y agoThe brilliant thing is, if the author controls the host server of this article and it gets near the top of Google results for its title, watching the article hit-rate [1] should be a neat way of predicting the inevitable bitcoin crash! Probably several hours in advance. He could market out this service for Big Bucks. [1] After the article stops being front-page-HN'd, at least.
- DKnoll 9y agoClever idea. > [1] After the article stops being front-page-HN'd, at least. He could just check the referrer. This can be spoofed but the majority of people following links, even here, won't do that. Then he can rule out getting posted to other social media and just look at people coming from Google.
- hayksaakian 9y agoEven easier, he can set up an affiliate relationship with the major exchanges and advertise a "sell online here" link.
- modeless 9y agoYou don't need to own a top search listing for this. Google Trends shows the popularity of any search term in real time. https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=now%201-H&q=Sell%20bitcoin https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=now%201-H&q=Se...
- uptown 9y agoIs there a consensus regarding trusting these exchanges with scans of verification documents? Bitstamp is asking for scans of a drivers license or passport to verify the account and proceed with transactions.
- conception 9y agoI think it's the same as with all exchanges - there's always a possibility of them losing everything, id, your coins, etc. At least if you use a US based one, there's some possibility of legal recourse.
- 21 9y agoThis is very normal in the financial services industries. I've done it for stock brokers, forex brokers, even money transfer services. Bitstamp is one of the more legit exchanges.
- bpicolo 9y agoIt's 100% necessary for money-laundering prevention. I'd be way more concerned using an exchange that doesn't do it.
- uptown 9y agoBasically, the KYC regulations?
- user5994461 9y agoYes, KYC = know your customer, you gotta check the identity of your customers.
- AlexandrB 9y agoIf I was a hacker, bitcoin ecosystem companies would look like mighty tempting targets. Combine the high value of the data (wallets), often inexperienced security teams, lack of security regulation or oversight, and the presence of additional assets sellable on the black market - like a bunch of personal information - and you have a very juicy target for cyber attack. I hope the big bitcoin players are being very diligent about their security practices right now.
- hanklazard 9y agoBray mentions Ripple as a better crypto to buy because it has an application (ie ledger for enterprise banking and other financial institutions). I disagree for two reasons: 1. I’ve become convinced that the crypto currencies with applications (ether, xrp, and others) are actually riskier than the simple store of value coins like BTC. If, for example, dapps don’t really take off in popularity and the “application” of the crypto currency fails, I would expect that would tank the value of that currency. BTC or LTC, which seem more like simple store of value coins at this point, would appear to have less of this type of associated risk. 2. Ripple (XRP) in particular seems doomed to me. I do not believe that any major financial institution would use a public blockchain and associated currency. If they need / want to use blockchain, there are non-public options that would better serve banks, some being developed by the hyperledger group and others.
- anonyx69 9y ago"store of value coins" are such a far departure from what cryptocurrency was invented and intended to be: peer to peer decentralized money.
- hanklazard 9y agoFor sure. But here we are, at least with btc. Current fees, volatility, and confirmation times make it a pretty bad choice as a proper currency.
- 659087 9y agoIt's hard to argue that something that could be worth +/- 10%+ in the time it takes a transaction to process is a good "store of value", too.
- hanklazard 9y agoFair enough, maybe it’s not the best label. My purpose was just to discriminate between the cryptocurrencies that are trying to solve some other problem (create a worldwide supercomputer, decentralized storage, etc) from those that are more straightforward. I certainly don’t think of any of it as a store-of-value ... more like a trip to the casino!
- guiomie 9y ago'You can bet that if (I mean when) Bitcoin deflates, the loss is going to be mostly soaked up by the people who’ve bought in recently, the 95%-plus of holders who collectively own less than 5% of BTC.' ... Can someone help me understand this? How can the 5% buy back 95% of the bitcoin if the 95% tries to cash out? The 95% can't cash out no?
- wvenable 9y agoThose who bought bitcoin for considerably less years ago aren't going to lose as much real money as those buying in right now while it's high.
- cowsandmilk 9y agoI think what the article is saying is that 5% that own 95% didn't buy in at inflated prices. Those who own just 5% of bitcoins likely bought high, so they will be in the red on a crash. Those with more coinage tend to have bought low and will still be in the black if the market crashes. E.g. the Winklevoss twins bought 120,000 bitcoins at $10. If the market crashes to $1,010 from today's $16-17,000, they'll still be in the black by $120MM. Sure, on paper they'll have lost a billion dollars, but they're still not hurting.
- usrusr 9y agoNot being able to cash out is the entire point of a crash. Imagine the mathematical edge case of an infinitely fast crash, BTC becoming instantly worthless. In that situation, the 4% who still own almost all of the then-worthless BTC, if they did not fail to play their cards right, will already have almost all the paper money that the 95+% gave them over the course of building their modest "bitcoin fortunes" (though much of that paper money will already be burnt on ASICs and energy). The real crash will be an approximation of that hypothetical instant crash model, with individual outcomes based on quick and correct identification of the crash and (logical and: you need both to succeed) preferred access to the last round of buyers.
- jonathannorris 9y agoFor those Canadians out there, I've had a decent experience with: https://www.quadrigacx.com https://www.quadrigacx.com, and I believe it's the biggest CAD exchange.
- badloginagain 9y agoI started with CoinBase, not realizing that there wasn't a sell option in Canada. Ive moved to quadrigacx and it's worked well. 0.1BTC transactions are not a problem- I've seen sell orders on scale of 100BTC, so I'm not sure what CoinSquare is about with their limits here. It has several methods to sell/withdraw money to banks, with various fees and wait times. The big thing for Canadians is on the taxation side. Trade on any digital currency is subject to capital gains- meaning they apply your tax bracket to half your profit. If you trade digital currency for goods/services (ie. Use BTC as a currency), its considered barter trade. You get taxed on the converted dollar value of the transaction. It appears Quadrigacx does not do any reporting to the CRA for your transactions, so of course all this would be self-reported at tax time.
- krrrh 9y agoCapital gains is an issue for Canadians (and Americans) regardless of what exchange they use. Not reporting sources of income is tax evasion. It’s amazing to me how frequently discussions of bitcoin profits are mixed with a casual attitude towards committing a major felony. A lot of people made a lot of money this year doing very little work. Be happy you live in a society where this is possible. Pay your taxes. EDIT: And for everyone worried about a crash in 2018 resulting in a big 2017 tax bill that can’t be paid, a reminder that you can carry losses backwards in Canada for up to 3 years and get those taxes refunded.
- PeterisP 9y agoIMHO in every country, at least in the first world, your profit from BTC growth would be taxable income, Canada is not special in that regard. The only question is whether it's interpreted as capital gains or something else in your jurisdiction.
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- joecool1029 9y agoAmerican, but I used to FX in Canada using Bitcoin when it actually worked as a currency (like 2013/2014). At the time it was cheaper than dealing with bank rates or merchants that would be lame and only take USD at par. I'd trade with a few people I met first on the OTC trading channel, then did initial small trades in person. Once enough trust was built up they'd just send me interac e-transfers for my coin. I had a Canadian bank account to receive it. Nobody would trust randos online to send interac since it could be reversed. But the OTC web of trust worked well back then and I never got burned (unlike with centralized exchanges)
- EGreg 9y agoThat may explain a lot of the growth in the Bitcoin and crypto ecosystem market cap: Being unable to cash out as easily as cashing in!
- bufferoverflow 9y agoYou can use almost any exchange in the world, and then send the fiat in foreign currency into your bank account. Your bank will happily convert to CAD, taking ~3% on a bad conversion rate. Just call your bank prior, make sure they accept USD or EUR or whatever currency you chose.
- RileyJames 9y agoI’m a little shocked it costs $20 ($10 to send and $10 to receive, and I’m unclear why the receiver seems to cop both fees) to send $2000 from a Canadian bank, to another Canadian bank. That seems absurd. I don’t recall ever being charged for a domestic bank transfer in Australia (I believe the fee is 50c but a free quota is received each month).
- gchokov 9y agoBitcoin options? Can you trade such somewhere? Using options is the only proper way to short bitcoin right now. But I was not aware of their existence.
- ringaroundthetx 9y agoWith bitcoin I've never had the same preferred cash-in/cash-out service for more than 6 months. They all inevitably shoot themselves in the foot, one way or the other.
- arisAlexis 9y agoSuch drama for something people are doing for years