4 ms·

Spying on citizens and dissidents, even if true, is nothing close to Nazis. For the record, - China was on the opposite side of Nazis in WW2 - China has 56 et

Spying on citizens and dissidents, even if true, is nothing close to Nazis. For the record, - China was on the opposite side of Nazis in WW2 - China has 56 ethnic groups and has no plan to "cleanse" any of them

adventured 9y ago
The fact is Communist China has a very deep history of "cleansing" what they define as undesirables, which continues today in various forms. Today (and for decades now) they're aggressively attempting to "cleanse" homosexuals using state resources, torturing thousands of people. [1][2] China's Communist system also "cleansed" a vast number of people throughout its recent history. Over two decades they murdered (or sent to gulags) hundreds of thousands of intellectuals and similar, who were declared to be class enemies. This in fact likely set China's potential back by decades as Mao's horrific policies severely depleted China's resources. [1] "China urged to stop using electroshock therapy to ‘convert’ LGBT people" https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/11/14/china-urged-to-stop-using-electroshock-therapy-to-convert-lgbt-people/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/11/14... [2] https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/11/14/china-end-conversion-therapy-medical-settings https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/11/14/china-end-conversion-the...
- paradite 9y ago
  So assuming what you described is true, why hasn't the rest of the world declared war against the communist China? Because it's not close to what Nazis did. And that's my point. Btw, from the articles that you linked, it is quite clear that treating LGBT as disease is not a government policy. In fact, it is against the law. The government doesn't actively hunt for LGBT people and send them for treatment. In fact I think they are less concerned about homosexuality than the churches are.
  - darepublic 9y ago
    The world doesn't declare war on countries because of their internal wrong doings. Do you actually think ww2 was fought because the world wanted to stop German mistreatment of its undesirables?
    - paradite 9y ago
      > The world doesn't declare war on countries because of their internal wrong doings. Yes, that's exactly what I wanted to say. Thanks for pointing out how China is different from Nazi.
  - astebbin 9y ago
    Your logic is not sound. North Korea was recently described as a worse human rights abuser than Nazi Germany, by a Holocaust survivor no less [0]. In spite of this commonly-held perception, no country has declared war on them, for many of the same economic and military reasons that no country has or would declare war on China. [0] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/north-korea/north-korean-gulags-terrible-or-even-worse-nazi-camps-auschwitz-n828751 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/north-korea/north-korean-gulags...
    - paradite 9y ago
      Okay. Let me break down my arguments in 2 parts: [1] China is not similar to Nazi because the extent of "cleansing" is not on the same scale as Nazi (even if you count death sentences on illegal cult members) [2] China is not similar to Nazi because it does not initiate new wars against other countries (Tibet was incorporated as a result of ongoing conflicts between China and other countries for decades, so it is not really an invasion) I shouldn't have concluded that countries are not declaring war against China is due to [1]. However, it can be explained by [2]. Regardless, I believe both [1] and [2] stands.
      - astebbin 9y ago
        I think you've taken more from the original comment than was given. Only you have compared Communist China to Nazi Germany on the basis of foreign policy, so that line of argument is irrelevant. Historians criticize IBM for helping the Nazis to identify and exterminate political and ethnic minorities, not for improving their ability to wage war. In that respect, Western companies like Yahoo and Cisco have already been caught in similar arrangements with the Chinese Communist Party [1][2]. Hopefully Google's AI center will not continue this disturbing trend. As to the scale of the CCP's "cleansing" to date, it's hard to know - they don't release any numbers, and foreign journalists are aggressively bullied, arrested, and deported if they try to find out [3][4]. We do know that China regularly humiliates and cracks down on members of its Muslim minorities [5], and that the Communist Party regularly intervenes in the appointment of Buddhist and Catholic religious leaders [6][7]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/07/business/worldbusiness/07iht-yahoo.1.8226586.html http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/07/business/worldbusiness/07i... [2] http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/2015/03/china%E2%80%99s-golden-shield-cisco-systems-complicit http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/2015/03/china%E2%80%99s-go... [3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/03/bbc-crew-attacked-in-china-says-reporter https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/03/bbc-crew-attac... [4] https://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2015/05/28/foreign-journalists-in-china-face-increasing-intimidation-survey-says/ https://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2015/05/28/foreign-journ... [5] https://www.economist.com/news/china/21721680-bans-abnormal-beards-and-even-name-muhammad-extraordinary-ways-which-china-humiliates https://www.economist.com/news/china/21721680-bans-abnormal-... [6] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-pacific-14533879 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-pacific-14533879 [7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_in_China#Diplomatic_relations_with_the_Vatican https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_in_China#Diplo...
gurkendoktor 9y ago
All capable governments are spying on their dissidents. However, the CCP also detains dissidents on the basis of its spying even in low-profile cases[1], and has been using prisoners (in other words, more dissidents) as a source of organ "donations" for a long time[2]. All the articles I've read about this topic are about specific religious groups (Uyghurs/Falun Gong). The Chinese treatment of Islam is so openly hostile that it would make Breitbart proud[3]. China is (thankfully) not ethnically cleansing Tibetans, but they are at least cleansing its culture[4]. Also, hi from Taiwan, so thousands of CCP missiles are pointing at the city around me. I agree that you can't compare the NSDAP to the CCP. But doing business with China is still a very different thing from dealing with most other countries (regardless of whose side they were on in 1945). [1] http://www.zeit.de/feature/freedom-of-press-china-zhang-miao-imprisonment http://www.zeit.de/feature/freedom-of-press-china-zhang-miao... [2] https://international.thenewslens.com/article/82726 https://international.thenewslens.com/article/82726 [3] https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/world/2015/05/05/china-orders-muslim-shopkeepers-sell-alcohol-cigarettes-weaken-islam/ccjEq835nk2bv83Kx8zh2H/story.html https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/world/2015/05/05/china-orde... [4] https://thediplomat.com/2017/08/china-tears-down-the-tibetan-city-in-the-sky/ https://thediplomat.com/2017/08/china-tears-down-the-tibetan...
- whooshee 9y ago
  Would you say providing public education and moving people from dangerous area to safer places as a way of cleansing their cultures? If you are really interested in China, you should just go somewhere and see for yourself. Media from China and anywhere else in the world are just slanted mirrors. When some Uyghur terrorists hit a train station in southern China and killed innocent civilians, some western media titled them as "terrorist" and implied they were repressed. As for Taiwan, It's still a legacy problem of Chinese civil war, It's really unlikely that China mainland will really do anything about Taiwan, speak of missiles, actually there was a missile missent and crashed by Taiwan towards mainland in recent years.
  - it_learnses 9y ago
    >Would you say providing public education and moving people from dangerous area to safer places as a way of cleansing their cultures? Wow somebody is drinking the govt koolaid. How about we move you and your family from a "dangerous area" to a safer place and provide you an "education" against your will?
cat199 9y ago
> - China was on the opposite side of Nazis in WW2 so was Stalin - are you saying comparisons between Stalin and Hitler would not be warranted?
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  Mao wasn’t really, he was content to let the KMT fight off the Japanese while the communists would conserve their strength for the oncoming civil war; Chiangkai Shek knew this and tried to play the same game, but the Americans wouldn’t let him. Mao is actually on record for thanking Japan in one of his weird off the cuff remarks: > "(Japan) doesn't have to say sorry, you had contributed towards China, why? Because had Imperial Japan did not start the war of invasion, how could we communist became mighty powerful? How could we stage the coup d'état? How could we defeat Chiang Kai Shek? How are we going to pay back you guys? No, we do not want your war reparations!"
  - whooshee 9y ago
    It was more like irony, Mao also thanked Chiang who killed his some of his family members and he thanked America who killed his son. If you read history, Mao insisted on fighting against the Japanese invaders before Chang did. Do not forget KMT had America assistance in civil war, but they lost, because they were just too messy with economies and care too little about 90% of Chinese poor people.
    - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
      Mao insisted on the KMT fighting Japanese invaders before Chiang did for sure, but he still didn’t bother committing substantial forces to the war. Mao also didn’t care much about poor people, see how many Chinese civilians died in the Seige of Changchun. Mao was basically a sociopath even if Chiang wasn’t much better; he was basically a smarter Donald Trump of his time, who knows what he would have written on weibo if it existed at the time!
      - whooshee 9y ago

adventured 9y ago

The fact is Communist China has a very deep history of "cleansing" what they define as undesirables, which continues today in various forms. Today (and for decades now) they're aggressively attempting to "cleanse" homosexuals using state resources, torturing thousands of people. [1][2] China's Communist system also "cleansed" a vast number of people throughout its recent history. Over two decades they murdered (or sent to gulags) hundreds of thousands of intellectuals and similar, who were declared to be class enemies. This in fact likely set China's potential back by decades as Mao's horrific policies severely depleted China's resources. [1] "China urged to stop using electroshock therapy to ‘convert’ LGBT people" https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/11/14/china-urged-to-stop-using-electroshock-therapy-to-convert-lgbt-people/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/11/14... [2] https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/11/14/china-end-conversion-therapy-medical-settings https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/11/14/china-end-conversion-the...

paradite 9y ago
So assuming what you described is true, why hasn't the rest of the world declared war against the communist China? Because it's not close to what Nazis did. And that's my point. Btw, from the articles that you linked, it is quite clear that treating LGBT as disease is not a government policy. In fact, it is against the law. The government doesn't actively hunt for LGBT people and send them for treatment. In fact I think they are less concerned about homosexuality than the churches are.
- darepublic 9y ago
  The world doesn't declare war on countries because of their internal wrong doings. Do you actually think ww2 was fought because the world wanted to stop German mistreatment of its undesirables?
  - paradite 9y ago
    > The world doesn't declare war on countries because of their internal wrong doings. Yes, that's exactly what I wanted to say. Thanks for pointing out how China is different from Nazi.
- astebbin 9y ago
  Your logic is not sound. North Korea was recently described as a worse human rights abuser than Nazi Germany, by a Holocaust survivor no less [0]. In spite of this commonly-held perception, no country has declared war on them, for many of the same economic and military reasons that no country has or would declare war on China. [0] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/north-korea/north-korean-gulags-terrible-or-even-worse-nazi-camps-auschwitz-n828751 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/north-korea/north-korean-gulags...
  - paradite 9y ago
    Okay. Let me break down my arguments in 2 parts: [1] China is not similar to Nazi because the extent of "cleansing" is not on the same scale as Nazi (even if you count death sentences on illegal cult members) [2] China is not similar to Nazi because it does not initiate new wars against other countries (Tibet was incorporated as a result of ongoing conflicts between China and other countries for decades, so it is not really an invasion) I shouldn't have concluded that countries are not declaring war against China is due to [1]. However, it can be explained by [2]. Regardless, I believe both [1] and [2] stands.
    - astebbin 9y ago
      I think you've taken more from the original comment than was given. Only you have compared Communist China to Nazi Germany on the basis of foreign policy, so that line of argument is irrelevant. Historians criticize IBM for helping the Nazis to identify and exterminate political and ethnic minorities, not for improving their ability to wage war. In that respect, Western companies like Yahoo and Cisco have already been caught in similar arrangements with the Chinese Communist Party [1][2]. Hopefully Google's AI center will not continue this disturbing trend. As to the scale of the CCP's "cleansing" to date, it's hard to know - they don't release any numbers, and foreign journalists are aggressively bullied, arrested, and deported if they try to find out [3][4]. We do know that China regularly humiliates and cracks down on members of its Muslim minorities [5], and that the Communist Party regularly intervenes in the appointment of Buddhist and Catholic religious leaders [6][7]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/07/business/worldbusiness/07iht-yahoo.1.8226586.html http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/07/business/worldbusiness/07i... [2] http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/2015/03/china%E2%80%99s-golden-shield-cisco-systems-complicit http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/2015/03/china%E2%80%99s-go... [3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/03/bbc-crew-attacked-in-china-says-reporter https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/03/bbc-crew-attac... [4] https://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2015/05/28/foreign-journalists-in-china-face-increasing-intimidation-survey-says/ https://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2015/05/28/foreign-journ... [5] https://www.economist.com/news/china/21721680-bans-abnormal-beards-and-even-name-muhammad-extraordinary-ways-which-china-humiliates https://www.economist.com/news/china/21721680-bans-abnormal-... [6] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-pacific-14533879 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-pacific-14533879 [7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_in_China#Diplomatic_relations_with_the_Vatican https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_in_China#Diplo...

gurkendoktor 9y ago

All capable governments are spying on their dissidents. However, the CCP also detains dissidents on the basis of its spying even in low-profile cases[1], and has been using prisoners (in other words, more dissidents) as a source of organ "donations" for a long time[2]. All the articles I've read about this topic are about specific religious groups (Uyghurs/Falun Gong). The Chinese treatment of Islam is so openly hostile that it would make Breitbart proud[3]. China is (thankfully) not ethnically cleansing Tibetans, but they are at least cleansing its culture[4]. Also, hi from Taiwan, so thousands of CCP missiles are pointing at the city around me. I agree that you can't compare the NSDAP to the CCP. But doing business with China is still a very different thing from dealing with most other countries (regardless of whose side they were on in 1945). [1] http://www.zeit.de/feature/freedom-of-press-china-zhang-miao-imprisonment http://www.zeit.de/feature/freedom-of-press-china-zhang-miao... [2] https://international.thenewslens.com/article/82726 https://international.thenewslens.com/article/82726 [3] https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/world/2015/05/05/china-orders-muslim-shopkeepers-sell-alcohol-cigarettes-weaken-islam/ccjEq835nk2bv83Kx8zh2H/story.html https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/world/2015/05/05/china-orde... [4] https://thediplomat.com/2017/08/china-tears-down-the-tibetan-city-in-the-sky/ https://thediplomat.com/2017/08/china-tears-down-the-tibetan...

whooshee 9y ago
Would you say providing public education and moving people from dangerous area to safer places as a way of cleansing their cultures? If you are really interested in China, you should just go somewhere and see for yourself. Media from China and anywhere else in the world are just slanted mirrors. When some Uyghur terrorists hit a train station in southern China and killed innocent civilians, some western media titled them as "terrorist" and implied they were repressed. As for Taiwan, It's still a legacy problem of Chinese civil war, It's really unlikely that China mainland will really do anything about Taiwan, speak of missiles, actually there was a missile missent and crashed by Taiwan towards mainland in recent years.
- it_learnses 9y ago
  >Would you say providing public education and moving people from dangerous area to safer places as a way of cleansing their cultures? Wow somebody is drinking the govt koolaid. How about we move you and your family from a "dangerous area" to a safer place and provide you an "education" against your will?

cat199 9y ago

> - China was on the opposite side of Nazis in WW2 so was Stalin - are you saying comparisons between Stalin and Hitler would not be warranted?

seanmcdirmid 9y ago
Mao wasn’t really, he was content to let the KMT fight off the Japanese while the communists would conserve their strength for the oncoming civil war; Chiangkai Shek knew this and tried to play the same game, but the Americans wouldn’t let him. Mao is actually on record for thanking Japan in one of his weird off the cuff remarks: > "(Japan) doesn't have to say sorry, you had contributed towards China, why? Because had Imperial Japan did not start the war of invasion, how could we communist became mighty powerful? How could we stage the coup d'état? How could we defeat Chiang Kai Shek? How are we going to pay back you guys? No, we do not want your war reparations!"
- whooshee 9y ago
  It was more like irony, Mao also thanked Chiang who killed his some of his family members and he thanked America who killed his son. If you read history, Mao insisted on fighting against the Japanese invaders before Chang did. Do not forget KMT had America assistance in civil war, but they lost, because they were just too messy with economies and care too little about 90% of Chinese poor people.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    Mao insisted on the KMT fighting Japanese invaders before Chiang did for sure, but he still didn’t bother committing substantial forces to the war. Mao also didn’t care much about poor people, see how many Chinese civilians died in the Seige of Changchun. Mao was basically a sociopath even if Chiang wasn’t much better; he was basically a smarter Donald Trump of his time, who knows what he would have written on weibo if it existed at the time!
    - whooshee 9y ago