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Doing so consistently for standard weapons indicates a certain level of bureaucratic organization.

chrisseaton 9y ago
Well that's what I mean. People seem absolutely dumfounded that these people are able to form basic bureaucratic organisational structures. They aren't simple people. Many of them have higher education from western countries. They're running their military using the same techniques we do, all the way from similar formal tactics on the ground up to social media PR operations. Them being able to write notes on weapons is the least of our worries.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  > People seem absolutely dumfounded that these people are able to form basic bureaucratic organisational structures Lots of people have big ideas. Few can competently execute on them. This is true of commercial entrepreneurship and international terrorism alike. From what I can tell, ISIS is (or was) unusually well run [1]. [1] http://m.spiegel.de/international/world/islamic-state-files-show-structure-of-islamist-terror-group-a-1029274.html http://m.spiegel.de/international/world/islamic-state-files-...
  - brazzy 9y ago
    Which is likely the reason why they were unusually successful. There are probably dozens of terrorist organizations run by would-be conquerors which never get very far because their leaders are not competent.
- gaius 9y ago
  They're running their military using the same techniques we do Well, of course they are. American Green Berets ran an extensive "train the trainer" programme in Afghanistan, bootstrapping the precursors of the Taliban into a military that could take on the Soviets. Then once the Soviets were gone, the factions turned on each other, which meant, they continued to practice and refine what they have learned. An ISIS equivalent of a Drill Sergeant probably isn't too different from his Western counterpart...
  - jacobr 9y ago
    al-Qaida is also present in Syria in the form of Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, previously Nusra Front. They have Afghan veterans in their ranks, but do not have the same level of sofistication and standardization as the Islamic State. It's not obvious exactly why the IS is different, but I doubt it has anything to do with American influence. Other rebel groups in the Syrian civil war has had direct American training but they were highly undisciplined and ineffective.
    - varjag 9y ago
      If anything they were Iraqi army veterans trained by Soviets. But guess complaining about Russian imperialist overreach is unfashionable.
    - azernik 9y ago
      The big difference is that ISIS descends from Al-Qaida's Iraqi franchise, which picked up a lot of professionalism from demobilized Iraqi Army officers. ISIS was expelled/quit AQ when it started moving in from Iraq and muscling in on Nusra's turf, but they do have common origins.
  - azernik 9y ago
    That's the Taliban in Afghanistan. ISIS grew out of the very different Iraqi context. The real origin of ISIS's organizational skill is the disbanding of the Iraqi military in 2003 - a totally unnecessary decision on the part of the US that played a big part in the ensuing chaos in the country. Lots of military officers from the old regime, disproportionately Sunni, out of a job, and none too picky about the specific ideologies of the groups that would advance their sectarian interests, transferred their knowledge to groups like AQI, the ancestor of ISIS.
    - boomboomsubban 9y ago
      The disbanding of the military was part of the DeBa'athification doctrine. It also banned all members of the Ba'ath party from public employment, including the various affiliated corporations. Private jobs were surprisingly hard to find, given the stigma and the whole war thing. So not only the military knowledge, but the people that know how to run the factories and the people that can handle the logistics of such a thing. Not to mention teachers, medical staff, and similar posts.
- Jedd 9y ago
  > Many of them have higher education from western countries. I think one of the reasons that 'these people' aren't frequently over-estimated (or even accurately estimated) is because almost none of them have higher education from their own countries. Not that many higher education facilities have a specific 'learning from your enemy' track, and it's not as though there are respected rules around not using your enemy's facilities against them ... but you know what I mean.
- grkvlt 9y ago
  I think the reason people are 'dumbfounded' is that IS are display a level of rationality and critical thinking that seems entirely at odds with their irrational and uncritical cultural-religious-political beliefs.
  - krageon 9y ago
    The US has a competent military. The country is fundamentally christian - I don't see why the two need to be mutually exclusive.
  - gnu8 9y ago
    I didn't read that much into it. I just attributed it to the racist assumption that all non-white non-US persons live like cave people, which makes it that much more impressive that they use any form of technology, whether it be remote controlled explosives or simply the written word.

Well that's what I mean. People seem absolutely dumfounded that these people are able to form basic bureaucratic organisational structures. They aren't simple people. Many of them have higher education from western countries. They're running their military using the same techniques we do, all the way from similar formal tactics on the ground up to social media PR operations. Them being able to write notes on weapons is the least of our worries.

JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> People seem absolutely dumfounded that these people are able to form basic bureaucratic organisational structures Lots of people have big ideas. Few can competently execute on them. This is true of commercial entrepreneurship and international terrorism alike. From what I can tell, ISIS is (or was) unusually well run [1]. [1] http://m.spiegel.de/international/world/islamic-state-files-show-structure-of-islamist-terror-group-a-1029274.html http://m.spiegel.de/international/world/islamic-state-files-...
- brazzy 9y ago
  Which is likely the reason why they were unusually successful. There are probably dozens of terrorist organizations run by would-be conquerors which never get very far because their leaders are not competent.
gaius 9y ago
They're running their military using the same techniques we do Well, of course they are. American Green Berets ran an extensive "train the trainer" programme in Afghanistan, bootstrapping the precursors of the Taliban into a military that could take on the Soviets. Then once the Soviets were gone, the factions turned on each other, which meant, they continued to practice and refine what they have learned. An ISIS equivalent of a Drill Sergeant probably isn't too different from his Western counterpart...
- jacobr 9y ago
  al-Qaida is also present in Syria in the form of Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, previously Nusra Front. They have Afghan veterans in their ranks, but do not have the same level of sofistication and standardization as the Islamic State. It's not obvious exactly why the IS is different, but I doubt it has anything to do with American influence. Other rebel groups in the Syrian civil war has had direct American training but they were highly undisciplined and ineffective.
  - varjag 9y ago
    If anything they were Iraqi army veterans trained by Soviets. But guess complaining about Russian imperialist overreach is unfashionable.
  - azernik 9y ago
    The big difference is that ISIS descends from Al-Qaida's Iraqi franchise, which picked up a lot of professionalism from demobilized Iraqi Army officers. ISIS was expelled/quit AQ when it started moving in from Iraq and muscling in on Nusra's turf, but they do have common origins.
- azernik 9y ago
  That's the Taliban in Afghanistan. ISIS grew out of the very different Iraqi context. The real origin of ISIS's organizational skill is the disbanding of the Iraqi military in 2003 - a totally unnecessary decision on the part of the US that played a big part in the ensuing chaos in the country. Lots of military officers from the old regime, disproportionately Sunni, out of a job, and none too picky about the specific ideologies of the groups that would advance their sectarian interests, transferred their knowledge to groups like AQI, the ancestor of ISIS.
  - boomboomsubban 9y ago
    The disbanding of the military was part of the DeBa'athification doctrine. It also banned all members of the Ba'ath party from public employment, including the various affiliated corporations. Private jobs were surprisingly hard to find, given the stigma and the whole war thing. So not only the military knowledge, but the people that know how to run the factories and the people that can handle the logistics of such a thing. Not to mention teachers, medical staff, and similar posts.
Jedd 9y ago
> Many of them have higher education from western countries. I think one of the reasons that 'these people' aren't frequently over-estimated (or even accurately estimated) is because almost none of them have higher education from their own countries. Not that many higher education facilities have a specific 'learning from your enemy' track, and it's not as though there are respected rules around not using your enemy's facilities against them ... but you know what I mean.
grkvlt 9y ago
I think the reason people are 'dumbfounded' is that IS are display a level of rationality and critical thinking that seems entirely at odds with their irrational and uncritical cultural-religious-political beliefs.
- krageon 9y ago
  The US has a competent military. The country is fundamentally christian - I don't see why the two need to be mutually exclusive.
- gnu8 9y ago
  I didn't read that much into it. I just attributed it to the racist assumption that all non-white non-US persons live like cave people, which makes it that much more impressive that they use any form of technology, whether it be remote controlled explosives or simply the written word.