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> I don't get the "9 to 5 wouldn't make you a great engineer" about not being passionate, some people are passionate but have other life obligations like kids o

> I don't get the "9 to 5 wouldn't make you a great engineer" about not being passionate, some people are passionate but have other life obligations like kids or other activities. I think what the engineer is trying to convey is that a great software engineer thinks about code beyond just the job. I don't think the engineer literally means being a workaholic or the literal 9am-5pm shift, but the engineer has pet projects of his or her own that aren't necessarily related to work, as well as thinks of programming beyond just a paycheck as a personal interest (just as a photographer or any other craftsman would). I've hired many programmers. The most disappointing ones were ones that only did exactly what their work told them to do. They would never read technical stuff or things like Hacker News on their days off. The best programmers were the ones that built pet projects for their own needs. I remember one guy would write a script to download new wallpapers for his laptop to cycle through the hours of the day. If I recall correctly, Gmail was an engineer's pet project (when 20% time existed). Some contribute to Stack Overflow; others to open-source and to blog posts. It's a lot like being a good restaurant cook or musician. You enjoy cooking, not just for the pay, but for how the craft empowers you. A good cook will think about what sides will pair with that steak, while an average cook will probably robotically sling together a dish. A good engineer will show passion.

jwdunne 9y ago
That's a relief. Three kids mandate 9 to 5 work hours. There isn't much quality time or mental energy to dedicate after that. It's a relief because whatever energy I have left I spend on books, articles, papers. Those things have helped my 9 to 5 in a big way. I bring what I learn to the job. It doesn't beat hands on practice. I do itch to work on practice projects and I'm hoping when the kids are a little older, I'll have more time and energy for that. In any case, my kids are my number one. The day my first was born was the day my motivations and my reason for being shifted.
- jdcskillet 9y ago
  I couldn’t agree with you more. I wish I could do more than give you an upvote, so here is an internet cheers and just know there are a lot of people who feel the same way. I also love what I do, read when I can, but at the end of the day I work hours which allow me to be with my kids and wife as much as possible. I hope to keep getting better, to become a great engineer, but I will take the slower road if it means more family time.
  - jwdunne 9y ago
    Exactly the same :) the guilt of not spending time with my kids and my wife is too much. There have been times where I've tried to sit down and work on something but it's no fun when there's a strong feeling of "I should be spending this time with my family". The other thing I've noticed is that the separation and challenge of raising children has made me more productive. You don't know stress until you've had a newborn. There are things at work that used to affect me and I look back now and think "how was that even a problem?"
    - TeMPOraL 9y ago
      > There have been times where I've tried to sit down and work on something but it's no fun when there's a strong feeling of "I should be spending this time with my family". That doesn't sound like a recommendation for becoming a parent. In fact it sounds the opposite - "don't have children, or you'll guilt yourself out of every other thing you could be doing".
      - jwdunne 9y ago
        Well it's not for me to recommend. I don't recommend it if you don't feel you've got where you need to be and that matters very much. There's tonnes of reasons why I wouldn't recommend parenthood. I don't think I was ready by any margin. All I'm saying is that I don't regret it and I consider it the best decision of my life.
        mcny 9y ago
        I'll say the selfish thing. There isn't (and rightly so) any law that requires us to have children. I say use it. Let the suckers who want children raise the children we need to take care of us when we are to old. My personal recommendation us when in doubt, err on the side of not having children. Don't make life harder on you than it has to be.
        jwdunne 9y ago
- enraged_camel 9y ago
  >>In any case, my kids are my number one. The day my first was born was the day my motivations and my reason for being shifted. Your kids should be your number one priority, absolutely. Make no mistake though: when you have kids you are trading off professional development outside of work for raising a family. Nothing wrong with that, but the trade off definitely is there. People who ambitiously work on personal projects in their spare time will, on average, advance faster than those who are 9-5'ers.
  - jwdunne 9y ago
    Yep and I'd have it no other way. Before kids, I used to be like that. If I "ambitiously worked on side projects", I'd at best miss times I'll never get back and at worse be downright neglectful. That's a "trade off" I haven't thought twice about making. There is no mistake. As I said, my kids are number one. In fact, I'd argue it isn't much of a trade off at all. Time with my kids is infinitely more valuable than time spent on my career. Someday :)
    - mcny 9y ago
      I wish it was more socially acceptable to not have children. In many parts of the world, there is still so much stigma if you marry and don't have a child within a couple of years. I am hopeful things will change and we can swing down the total fertility rate to below one.
      - ido 9y ago
        I'm 34 and living in Berlin - I know a low of people within ±10 years of my age here and MANY have no kids and aren't planning on having any. The norms are changing in a lot of major urban areas.
        jwdunne 9y ago
        I certainly felt no pressure to have children. In fact, up until the moment I decided to have children, I always said I didn't want them. What changed was my partner's boy, and now my boy for all intents and purposes. It made me rethink my stance and I decided to expand my family.
- Aaargh20318 9y ago
  > The day my first was born was the day my motivations and my reason for being shifted. One of the many reasons I remain childfree.
  - jwdunne 9y ago
    Each to their own - I don't see it as a bad thing. Having children has made me happier and more fulfilled in ways that I could never have imagined. You cannot know the feeling of it until you do. You cannot really understand it until you do. It changes your world.
    - Aaargh20318 9y ago
      > Having children has made me happier and more fulfilled in ways that I could never have imagined. That's my main problem with it, it's super selfish to procreate. I don't feel I have the right to force new life (with all the pain and suffering that entails) onto this world for the sake of making me happy. I love my potential children too much to do that to them.
      - saltedmd5 9y ago
        I think this is probably the most self-indulgent thing I've ever read.
        coisnepe 9y ago
        Is it just a coincidence that there was an article about this very thing a few days ago here? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15869983 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15869983
        Aaargh20318 9y ago
        In my case, yes. I've been an antinatalist for a long time.
        msla 9y ago
avip 9y ago
I hear this sentiment a lot. I don't think it has much merit if any. Were musicians practicing scales daily 9-5 (+ occasional overtime when a customer urgently needs a modus they're not familiar with) - would you expect them to "enjoy" another 3h of fingering, possibly on some other instrument, in their spare time - because it "empowers" them and it's "a passion"?
- flunhat 9y ago
  I played a wind instrument for 10 years, ending in senior year of high school. I got quite good (if I do say so myself, lol) and had the opportunity to learn from a few excellent musicians in private instructions, chamber music, and the like. I have to say, I agree with the OP. The best musicians I knew critically listened to different pieces of music in their spare time, reflected on their performances, and so on. From what I could tell, music permeated every aspect of their lives, even if they weren't spending their free time practicing technical fundamentals. Their love of the art was such that I don't think they could stop that if they even tried to.
- MBCook 9y ago
  They don’t have to actually code outside work. I scratch my coding itch at my job. But I read all sorts of technology and programming stuff just because I’m interested in it. And that knowledge ends up coming in very useful. I’d rather have someone like me than someone who does their coding at work but never reads anything that they weren’t assigned to by their job. To use your analogy, would you want to musician who worked 9 to 5 but never listened to any music outside of their job?
- stfwn 9y ago
  I have been in music for some time, and this is almost exactly what great musicians do. There is definitely a time for activities that are ‘neccessary’ or ‘good practice’ to spend time on, and then there is a large amount of time they almost subconsciously spend in their field: they just enjoy having a beer with friends (at a jam session), having a chat (about music), hanging back (with their instrument), waste time on YouTube (watching poor quality phone recordings of musicians they look up to). Some don't think about anything else. Some have other interests. But I cannot think of one great musician that doesn't touch music when they're ‘off from work’.
PakG1 9y ago
Perhaps it can be viewed in the same vein as Michael Jordan's "for the love of the game" contract clause. The clause stipulated that MJ would be able to run off whenever he wanted to join a pickup game, let him remember why he plays. Now, it'd be probably unreasonable for engineers to say to their manager, "hey, I'm going to take a few days off because I want to contribute to an open source project". But my point is whether they ever have a "for the love of my craft" perspective at anytime in their life. How that actually manifests in reality, good question.
- Terretta 9y ago
  Why is that unreasonable?
  - zaptheimpaler 9y ago
    Its not unreasonable, given that some companies demand passionate rockstar unicorn engineers, yet most companies will not grant that request - they will instead exploit that passion into workaholism and leave you holding the bag when you burnout. So as engineers, we must demand equally that "passion" not be a requirement.
    - internetman55 9y ago
      Lots of companies don't actually want "rockstars". I know someone from college with incredible quantiative and programming skills. He started taking rigorous college level math classes and writing his own compression schemes in high school. He got his undergrad degree in about 2 years by getting permission to enroll in 4+ graduate computer science courses each semester instead of doing the normal curriculum. When he got hired to do boring tech work at the company I worked at, he just freaked everyone out. The questions he asked were too pointed and he would just do things correctly instead of doing what his boss said. Since he was extremely gifted and had offers to work at other (better) firms, threat of job loss didn't mean anything. All his managers basically hated him.
      - 9y ago
mempko 9y ago
of course the the corporate overlords want engineers to spend free time doing side projects. Usually they can claim those side projects as their own via the employment contract.

jwdunne 9y ago

That's a relief. Three kids mandate 9 to 5 work hours. There isn't much quality time or mental energy to dedicate after that. It's a relief because whatever energy I have left I spend on books, articles, papers. Those things have helped my 9 to 5 in a big way. I bring what I learn to the job. It doesn't beat hands on practice. I do itch to work on practice projects and I'm hoping when the kids are a little older, I'll have more time and energy for that. In any case, my kids are my number one. The day my first was born was the day my motivations and my reason for being shifted.

jdcskillet 9y ago
I couldn’t agree with you more. I wish I could do more than give you an upvote, so here is an internet cheers and just know there are a lot of people who feel the same way. I also love what I do, read when I can, but at the end of the day I work hours which allow me to be with my kids and wife as much as possible. I hope to keep getting better, to become a great engineer, but I will take the slower road if it means more family time.
- jwdunne 9y ago
  Exactly the same :) the guilt of not spending time with my kids and my wife is too much. There have been times where I've tried to sit down and work on something but it's no fun when there's a strong feeling of "I should be spending this time with my family". The other thing I've noticed is that the separation and challenge of raising children has made me more productive. You don't know stress until you've had a newborn. There are things at work that used to affect me and I look back now and think "how was that even a problem?"
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    > There have been times where I've tried to sit down and work on something but it's no fun when there's a strong feeling of "I should be spending this time with my family". That doesn't sound like a recommendation for becoming a parent. In fact it sounds the opposite - "don't have children, or you'll guilt yourself out of every other thing you could be doing".
    - jwdunne 9y ago
      Well it's not for me to recommend. I don't recommend it if you don't feel you've got where you need to be and that matters very much. There's tonnes of reasons why I wouldn't recommend parenthood. I don't think I was ready by any margin. All I'm saying is that I don't regret it and I consider it the best decision of my life.
      - mcny 9y ago
        I'll say the selfish thing. There isn't (and rightly so) any law that requires us to have children. I say use it. Let the suckers who want children raise the children we need to take care of us when we are to old. My personal recommendation us when in doubt, err on the side of not having children. Don't make life harder on you than it has to be.
        jwdunne 9y ago
enraged_camel 9y ago
>>In any case, my kids are my number one. The day my first was born was the day my motivations and my reason for being shifted. Your kids should be your number one priority, absolutely. Make no mistake though: when you have kids you are trading off professional development outside of work for raising a family. Nothing wrong with that, but the trade off definitely is there. People who ambitiously work on personal projects in their spare time will, on average, advance faster than those who are 9-5'ers.
- jwdunne 9y ago
  Yep and I'd have it no other way. Before kids, I used to be like that. If I "ambitiously worked on side projects", I'd at best miss times I'll never get back and at worse be downright neglectful. That's a "trade off" I haven't thought twice about making. There is no mistake. As I said, my kids are number one. In fact, I'd argue it isn't much of a trade off at all. Time with my kids is infinitely more valuable than time spent on my career. Someday :)
  - mcny 9y ago
    I wish it was more socially acceptable to not have children. In many parts of the world, there is still so much stigma if you marry and don't have a child within a couple of years. I am hopeful things will change and we can swing down the total fertility rate to below one.
    - ido 9y ago
      I'm 34 and living in Berlin - I know a low of people within ±10 years of my age here and MANY have no kids and aren't planning on having any. The norms are changing in a lot of major urban areas.
      - jwdunne 9y ago
        I certainly felt no pressure to have children. In fact, up until the moment I decided to have children, I always said I didn't want them. What changed was my partner's boy, and now my boy for all intents and purposes. It made me rethink my stance and I decided to expand my family.
Aaargh20318 9y ago
> The day my first was born was the day my motivations and my reason for being shifted. One of the many reasons I remain childfree.
- jwdunne 9y ago
  Each to their own - I don't see it as a bad thing. Having children has made me happier and more fulfilled in ways that I could never have imagined. You cannot know the feeling of it until you do. You cannot really understand it until you do. It changes your world.
  - Aaargh20318 9y ago
    > Having children has made me happier and more fulfilled in ways that I could never have imagined. That's my main problem with it, it's super selfish to procreate. I don't feel I have the right to force new life (with all the pain and suffering that entails) onto this world for the sake of making me happy. I love my potential children too much to do that to them.
    - saltedmd5 9y ago
      I think this is probably the most self-indulgent thing I've ever read.
      - coisnepe 9y ago
        Is it just a coincidence that there was an article about this very thing a few days ago here? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15869983 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15869983
        Aaargh20318 9y ago
        In my case, yes. I've been an antinatalist for a long time.
      - msla 9y ago

avip 9y ago

I hear this sentiment a lot. I don't think it has much merit if any. Were musicians practicing scales daily 9-5 (+ occasional overtime when a customer urgently needs a modus they're not familiar with) - would you expect them to "enjoy" another 3h of fingering, possibly on some other instrument, in their spare time - because it "empowers" them and it's "a passion"?

flunhat 9y ago
I played a wind instrument for 10 years, ending in senior year of high school. I got quite good (if I do say so myself, lol) and had the opportunity to learn from a few excellent musicians in private instructions, chamber music, and the like. I have to say, I agree with the OP. The best musicians I knew critically listened to different pieces of music in their spare time, reflected on their performances, and so on. From what I could tell, music permeated every aspect of their lives, even if they weren't spending their free time practicing technical fundamentals. Their love of the art was such that I don't think they could stop that if they even tried to.
MBCook 9y ago
They don’t have to actually code outside work. I scratch my coding itch at my job. But I read all sorts of technology and programming stuff just because I’m interested in it. And that knowledge ends up coming in very useful. I’d rather have someone like me than someone who does their coding at work but never reads anything that they weren’t assigned to by their job. To use your analogy, would you want to musician who worked 9 to 5 but never listened to any music outside of their job?
stfwn 9y ago
I have been in music for some time, and this is almost exactly what great musicians do. There is definitely a time for activities that are ‘neccessary’ or ‘good practice’ to spend time on, and then there is a large amount of time they almost subconsciously spend in their field: they just enjoy having a beer with friends (at a jam session), having a chat (about music), hanging back (with their instrument), waste time on YouTube (watching poor quality phone recordings of musicians they look up to). Some don't think about anything else. Some have other interests. But I cannot think of one great musician that doesn't touch music when they're ‘off from work’.

PakG1 9y ago

Perhaps it can be viewed in the same vein as Michael Jordan's "for the love of the game" contract clause. The clause stipulated that MJ would be able to run off whenever he wanted to join a pickup game, let him remember why he plays. Now, it'd be probably unreasonable for engineers to say to their manager, "hey, I'm going to take a few days off because I want to contribute to an open source project". But my point is whether they ever have a "for the love of my craft" perspective at anytime in their life. How that actually manifests in reality, good question.

Terretta 9y ago
Why is that unreasonable?
- zaptheimpaler 9y ago
  Its not unreasonable, given that some companies demand passionate rockstar unicorn engineers, yet most companies will not grant that request - they will instead exploit that passion into workaholism and leave you holding the bag when you burnout. So as engineers, we must demand equally that "passion" not be a requirement.
  - internetman55 9y ago
    Lots of companies don't actually want "rockstars". I know someone from college with incredible quantiative and programming skills. He started taking rigorous college level math classes and writing his own compression schemes in high school. He got his undergrad degree in about 2 years by getting permission to enroll in 4+ graduate computer science courses each semester instead of doing the normal curriculum. When he got hired to do boring tech work at the company I worked at, he just freaked everyone out. The questions he asked were too pointed and he would just do things correctly instead of doing what his boss said. Since he was extremely gifted and had offers to work at other (better) firms, threat of job loss didn't mean anything. All his managers basically hated him.
    - 9y ago

mempko 9y ago

of course the the corporate overlords want engineers to spend free time doing side projects. Usually they can claim those side projects as their own via the employment contract.