9 ms·

I don't get the "9 to 5 wouldn't make you a great engineer" about not being passionate, some people are passionate but have other life obligations like kids or

by vmarsy 9y ago

I don't get the "9 to 5 wouldn't make you a great engineer" about not being passionate, some people are passionate but have other life obligations like kids or other activities. Being personable: "Can I have a beer with this guy?" is the worse in my opinion. I care about your professional skills and if you're communicating well, but you definitely don't have to be a beer buddy, we might have 15 years difference, a very different background and share very few topics in common over a beer (assuming you even drink beer) but you could still be a great engineer to work with. Also you don't have to be a guy! The authors recognize that they only interview 5% women in the end... So overall some good advice, but it has a huge sampling bias. therefore the definition of a "great software engineer" is only valid in certain circumstances. For instance the authors recognize creativity is important, but one could argue some of the most creative engineers that can be found are the people who do another, very creative activity on the side (arts etc). These people would tend to be "9 to 5" because their "6 to 8" are already booked, so even if they appear less "passionate" they can be a huge asset to the team.

jasonjei 9y ago
> I don't get the "9 to 5 wouldn't make you a great engineer" about not being passionate, some people are passionate but have other life obligations like kids or other activities. I think what the engineer is trying to convey is that a great software engineer thinks about code beyond just the job. I don't think the engineer literally means being a workaholic or the literal 9am-5pm shift, but the engineer has pet projects of his or her own that aren't necessarily related to work, as well as thinks of programming beyond just a paycheck as a personal interest (just as a photographer or any other craftsman would). I've hired many programmers. The most disappointing ones were ones that only did exactly what their work told them to do. They would never read technical stuff or things like Hacker News on their days off. The best programmers were the ones that built pet projects for their own needs. I remember one guy would write a script to download new wallpapers for his laptop to cycle through the hours of the day. If I recall correctly, Gmail was an engineer's pet project (when 20% time existed). Some contribute to Stack Overflow; others to open-source and to blog posts. It's a lot like being a good restaurant cook or musician. You enjoy cooking, not just for the pay, but for how the craft empowers you. A good cook will think about what sides will pair with that steak, while an average cook will probably robotically sling together a dish. A good engineer will show passion.
- jwdunne 9y ago
  That's a relief. Three kids mandate 9 to 5 work hours. There isn't much quality time or mental energy to dedicate after that. It's a relief because whatever energy I have left I spend on books, articles, papers. Those things have helped my 9 to 5 in a big way. I bring what I learn to the job. It doesn't beat hands on practice. I do itch to work on practice projects and I'm hoping when the kids are a little older, I'll have more time and energy for that. In any case, my kids are my number one. The day my first was born was the day my motivations and my reason for being shifted.
  - jdcskillet 9y ago
    I couldn’t agree with you more. I wish I could do more than give you an upvote, so here is an internet cheers and just know there are a lot of people who feel the same way. I also love what I do, read when I can, but at the end of the day I work hours which allow me to be with my kids and wife as much as possible. I hope to keep getting better, to become a great engineer, but I will take the slower road if it means more family time.
    - jwdunne 9y ago
      Exactly the same :) the guilt of not spending time with my kids and my wife is too much. There have been times where I've tried to sit down and work on something but it's no fun when there's a strong feeling of "I should be spending this time with my family". The other thing I've noticed is that the separation and challenge of raising children has made me more productive. You don't know stress until you've had a newborn. There are things at work that used to affect me and I look back now and think "how was that even a problem?"
      - TeMPOraL 9y ago
        > There have been times where I've tried to sit down and work on something but it's no fun when there's a strong feeling of "I should be spending this time with my family". That doesn't sound like a recommendation for becoming a parent. In fact it sounds the opposite - "don't have children, or you'll guilt yourself out of every other thing you could be doing".
justboxing 9y ago
This. > Being personable: "Can I have a beer with this guy?" is the worse in my opinion. Social Drinking is a very western activity. In the East (India, Pakistan, China, etc...) a large majority of people are what are called "teetotalers" - never drink alcohol. Yet they socialize as much, if not more.
- yeukhon 9y ago
  While I agree with you, in other industries such as hedge funds, "social drinking" is a regular thing.
- ramchip 9y ago
  Japan and Korea have very strong social drinking cultures, so I don’t think it’s really a question of East vs West.
- fma 9y ago
  Drinking and eating is a very social part of life in China...
makmanalp 9y ago
> Being personable: "Can I have a beer with this guy?" is the worse in my opinion I'm not going to disagree with you re: beer buddies. Really the way I read this is not as a requirement that employees participate in after-work events or in mandatory work friendships, but more of a misguided heuristic for something simpler. The general question is whether the average interaction with you is pleasant or not. If your job requires interacting with others (as it often does in software teams) and you're generally unpleasant or difficult to interact with, then people might avoid interacting with you, and that's a hit on everyone's ability to do their job. On the flipside, someone who's easy to interact with can be a great resource to everyone and also learn from all the people they interact with.
- yeukhon 9y ago
  I don't think, and I absolutely don't think not joining a party would make one's interaction with another person unpleasant. I have seen both types. My old boss doesn't go to party much, but he's absolutely the easiest person to work with.
  - makmanalp 9y ago
    Yup, agreed - that was what I was trying to convey.
- vmarsy 9y ago
  That's a good point. Given the choice, I definitely would work with someone who's more pleasant to interact with. But my definition of "pleasant" in a professional environment is far away from my definition of "pleasant to have a beer with". Like you can be a very friendly, chill, and fun person, but if professionally you keep overpromising, not own to your mistakes, pretend you know something when you don't (which could make you look cool outside of work but a pain at work), and other negative traits discussed in the paper, then I would avoid interact because you're not work-pleasant.
  - opportune 9y ago
    The funny thing is that a pleasant, over-promising person who pretends to know more than they actually do would be fast tracked for management at a lot of companies.
dlwdlw 9y ago
Personally I've always hated the concept of beer buddies because if you didn't grow up with it, it's an entirely different type of interaction with different expected levels of intimacy. the people who will pass the beer buddy test will primarily be people who grow up with its culture and creates a monoculture. Perhaps not mono-racial but definitely mono-culture.
- stevenjohns 9y ago
  I think it really depends on where you come from. At my office in Sydney, Australia, I can say that the office "beer buddies" are extremely ethnically, religiously, politically and socially diverse. The only things that are explicitly common would be a general appreciation for good beer and music. I wouldn't say it's monocultural, although it does tend to have a bias for people without (young) children.
internetman55 9y ago
I've had coworkers who were obese, childless at a relatively advanced age (around 40), poor relationship with their significant other, etc. tell me about how they spend their downtime making sure their manager meets their deadlines and studying documentation, sometimes working til 2 in the morning. I'd rather just get laid off and collect unemployment for a few months then spend another week ruining my life like that tbh
- MBCook 9y ago
  I like programming and technology and reading about it and learning new things. I’m never working 80 hours a week for someone to make them look good. No one should expect that.
- gregmac 9y ago
  If a manager expects or even does anything short of actively discouraging that behavior, they are not fit to be a manager.
- jschwartzi 9y ago
  Yeah, I'd rather have people in my life and things to do that don't involve making computers do stuff for money. If that makes me a bad engineer then our standards are fucked. I was on that track for several years, but it's not worth it. And I've built some good stuff and gotten a lot done since giving that up.
Manglano 9y ago
I feel like if the work isn't immediately like, "This is a product I myself see an immediate use and a need for," I'll have difficulty working on it. On the other hand, if the product's like, "This is approximately something I've wanted to work on literally my entire life," my 9-5 is going to be a steady output stream of concise, quality code, with the languages and frameworks of my employer's choice. My 6-8 is usually arts. I think engineering is art, it's just art whose language is mathematics. A lot of people disagree, but I purchased a GE NE-42 neon bulb and it's good evidence for my theory.
deepGem 9y ago
I don't get the "9 to 5 wouldn't make you a great engineer" As an experienced engineering manager this is what I've come across - Some of the engineers who put a 9 to 5 clause, are usually the obstinate engineers, who are not very productive during the hours of 9 to 5, but won't make up by working extra hours. The motto is 'This is all I'll deliver, live with it'. Perhaps, this bias factors in and a generalization emerges 'All 9 to 5 engineers are stubborn, non-creative, non-committed'. This is a huge fallacy because, again based on my limited experience, I have worked with some of the most productive, creative and committed engineers who mostly worked 9-5, but sprang to action in the middle of the night when a high priority production bug had to be looked into.
- jschwartzi 9y ago
  Yeah, it's not about being unwilling to occasionally work overtime. The thing 9-to-5'ers are railing against is that overtime is being taken for granted. It's that projects are planned with unrealistic deadlines assuming we'll burn our lives away meeting them.
  - deepGem 9y ago
    But don't the managers take the required estimates from engineers and plan accordingly ? Unless there is a strong deadline set by the market or by the customers.
    - ManlyBread 9y ago
      They also can say that the estimate is unreasonable and demand to cut the hours because they're the ones who get a final say.
segmondy 9y ago
If you don't get it, you will never get it. 9-5 won't make anyone a great anything. What makes people great is not what happens from 9-5 but what happens from their 5pm-9am. 9am-5pm, we do for others, 5pm-9am we do for ourselves. Life obligations or not.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

by vmarsy 9y ago

jasonjei 9y ago

> I don't get the "9 to 5 wouldn't make you a great engineer" about not being passionate, some people are passionate but have other life obligations like kids or other activities. I think what the engineer is trying to convey is that a great software engineer thinks about code beyond just the job. I don't think the engineer literally means being a workaholic or the literal 9am-5pm shift, but the engineer has pet projects of his or her own that aren't necessarily related to work, as well as thinks of programming beyond just a paycheck as a personal interest (just as a photographer or any other craftsman would). I've hired many programmers. The most disappointing ones were ones that only did exactly what their work told them to do. They would never read technical stuff or things like Hacker News on their days off. The best programmers were the ones that built pet projects for their own needs. I remember one guy would write a script to download new wallpapers for his laptop to cycle through the hours of the day. If I recall correctly, Gmail was an engineer's pet project (when 20% time existed). Some contribute to Stack Overflow; others to open-source and to blog posts. It's a lot like being a good restaurant cook or musician. You enjoy cooking, not just for the pay, but for how the craft empowers you. A good cook will think about what sides will pair with that steak, while an average cook will probably robotically sling together a dish. A good engineer will show passion.

jwdunne 9y ago
That's a relief. Three kids mandate 9 to 5 work hours. There isn't much quality time or mental energy to dedicate after that. It's a relief because whatever energy I have left I spend on books, articles, papers. Those things have helped my 9 to 5 in a big way. I bring what I learn to the job. It doesn't beat hands on practice. I do itch to work on practice projects and I'm hoping when the kids are a little older, I'll have more time and energy for that. In any case, my kids are my number one. The day my first was born was the day my motivations and my reason for being shifted.
- jdcskillet 9y ago
  I couldn’t agree with you more. I wish I could do more than give you an upvote, so here is an internet cheers and just know there are a lot of people who feel the same way. I also love what I do, read when I can, but at the end of the day I work hours which allow me to be with my kids and wife as much as possible. I hope to keep getting better, to become a great engineer, but I will take the slower road if it means more family time.
  - jwdunne 9y ago
    Exactly the same :) the guilt of not spending time with my kids and my wife is too much. There have been times where I've tried to sit down and work on something but it's no fun when there's a strong feeling of "I should be spending this time with my family". The other thing I've noticed is that the separation and challenge of raising children has made me more productive. You don't know stress until you've had a newborn. There are things at work that used to affect me and I look back now and think "how was that even a problem?"
    - TeMPOraL 9y ago
      > There have been times where I've tried to sit down and work on something but it's no fun when there's a strong feeling of "I should be spending this time with my family". That doesn't sound like a recommendation for becoming a parent. In fact it sounds the opposite - "don't have children, or you'll guilt yourself out of every other thing you could be doing".

justboxing 9y ago

This. > Being personable: "Can I have a beer with this guy?" is the worse in my opinion. Social Drinking is a very western activity. In the East (India, Pakistan, China, etc...) a large majority of people are what are called "teetotalers" - never drink alcohol. Yet they socialize as much, if not more.

yeukhon 9y ago
While I agree with you, in other industries such as hedge funds, "social drinking" is a regular thing.
ramchip 9y ago
Japan and Korea have very strong social drinking cultures, so I don’t think it’s really a question of East vs West.
fma 9y ago
Drinking and eating is a very social part of life in China...

makmanalp 9y ago

> Being personable: "Can I have a beer with this guy?" is the worse in my opinion I'm not going to disagree with you re: beer buddies. Really the way I read this is not as a requirement that employees participate in after-work events or in mandatory work friendships, but more of a misguided heuristic for something simpler. The general question is whether the average interaction with you is pleasant or not. If your job requires interacting with others (as it often does in software teams) and you're generally unpleasant or difficult to interact with, then people might avoid interacting with you, and that's a hit on everyone's ability to do their job. On the flipside, someone who's easy to interact with can be a great resource to everyone and also learn from all the people they interact with.

yeukhon 9y ago
I don't think, and I absolutely don't think not joining a party would make one's interaction with another person unpleasant. I have seen both types. My old boss doesn't go to party much, but he's absolutely the easiest person to work with.
- makmanalp 9y ago
  Yup, agreed - that was what I was trying to convey.
vmarsy 9y ago
That's a good point. Given the choice, I definitely would work with someone who's more pleasant to interact with. But my definition of "pleasant" in a professional environment is far away from my definition of "pleasant to have a beer with". Like you can be a very friendly, chill, and fun person, but if professionally you keep overpromising, not own to your mistakes, pretend you know something when you don't (which could make you look cool outside of work but a pain at work), and other negative traits discussed in the paper, then I would avoid interact because you're not work-pleasant.
- opportune 9y ago
  The funny thing is that a pleasant, over-promising person who pretends to know more than they actually do would be fast tracked for management at a lot of companies.

dlwdlw 9y ago

Personally I've always hated the concept of beer buddies because if you didn't grow up with it, it's an entirely different type of interaction with different expected levels of intimacy. the people who will pass the beer buddy test will primarily be people who grow up with its culture and creates a monoculture. Perhaps not mono-racial but definitely mono-culture.

stevenjohns 9y ago
I think it really depends on where you come from. At my office in Sydney, Australia, I can say that the office "beer buddies" are extremely ethnically, religiously, politically and socially diverse. The only things that are explicitly common would be a general appreciation for good beer and music. I wouldn't say it's monocultural, although it does tend to have a bias for people without (young) children.

internetman55 9y ago

I've had coworkers who were obese, childless at a relatively advanced age (around 40), poor relationship with their significant other, etc. tell me about how they spend their downtime making sure their manager meets their deadlines and studying documentation, sometimes working til 2 in the morning. I'd rather just get laid off and collect unemployment for a few months then spend another week ruining my life like that tbh

MBCook 9y ago
I like programming and technology and reading about it and learning new things. I’m never working 80 hours a week for someone to make them look good. No one should expect that.
gregmac 9y ago
If a manager expects or even does anything short of actively discouraging that behavior, they are not fit to be a manager.
jschwartzi 9y ago
Yeah, I'd rather have people in my life and things to do that don't involve making computers do stuff for money. If that makes me a bad engineer then our standards are fucked. I was on that track for several years, but it's not worth it. And I've built some good stuff and gotten a lot done since giving that up.

Manglano 9y ago

I feel like if the work isn't immediately like, "This is a product I myself see an immediate use and a need for," I'll have difficulty working on it. On the other hand, if the product's like, "This is approximately something I've wanted to work on literally my entire life," my 9-5 is going to be a steady output stream of concise, quality code, with the languages and frameworks of my employer's choice. My 6-8 is usually arts. I think engineering is art, it's just art whose language is mathematics. A lot of people disagree, but I purchased a GE NE-42 neon bulb and it's good evidence for my theory.

deepGem 9y ago

I don't get the "9 to 5 wouldn't make you a great engineer" As an experienced engineering manager this is what I've come across - Some of the engineers who put a 9 to 5 clause, are usually the obstinate engineers, who are not very productive during the hours of 9 to 5, but won't make up by working extra hours. The motto is 'This is all I'll deliver, live with it'. Perhaps, this bias factors in and a generalization emerges 'All 9 to 5 engineers are stubborn, non-creative, non-committed'. This is a huge fallacy because, again based on my limited experience, I have worked with some of the most productive, creative and committed engineers who mostly worked 9-5, but sprang to action in the middle of the night when a high priority production bug had to be looked into.

jschwartzi 9y ago
Yeah, it's not about being unwilling to occasionally work overtime. The thing 9-to-5'ers are railing against is that overtime is being taken for granted. It's that projects are planned with unrealistic deadlines assuming we'll burn our lives away meeting them.
- deepGem 9y ago
  But don't the managers take the required estimates from engineers and plan accordingly ? Unless there is a strong deadline set by the market or by the customers.
  - ManlyBread 9y ago
    They also can say that the estimate is unreasonable and demand to cut the hours because they're the ones who get a final say.

segmondy 9y ago

If you don't get it, you will never get it. 9-5 won't make anyone a great anything. What makes people great is not what happens from 9-5 but what happens from their 5pm-9am. 9am-5pm, we do for others, 5pm-9am we do for ourselves. Life obligations or not.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]