21 ms·

Learn to sell

329 points by ntang 9y ago

gumby 9y ago
This is really important. I love programming and am somewhat introverted, but being newlywed with a wife who couldn't work (visa), a mortgage, and a commission plan really made me learn to sell. The really good salespeople aren't deceptive, and I luckily learned from them. Also: if you're at a good company the engineers don't scorn the sales people (instead: "you guys bring in the money that pays our salaries") and the sales folks actually sell the product to people who will benefit from it.
- hardtke 9y ago
  I've always tried to sit in on a few sales calls at any place I've worked and have encouraged people working for me to do the same. It's valuable to see your products from the Sales team and customer perspective. The surprising thing I've observed is how great sales people spend most of the call listening to problems, not offering solutions.
  - bluetwo 9y ago
    Ding-ding-ding. That's the secret.
    - cabinguy 9y ago
      That’s right. We like to say “professionals ask questions, amateurs make statements.” The “sales process” is just a series of questions. The close is the natural ending to a great presentation.
  - gumby 9y ago
    I always have every member of the exec team attend a sales call per quarter. Yep, even the CFO. Amazing the impact it has on the staff meetings, much less the decisions made.
    - ethbro 9y ago
      Amen. If everyone at the org can't describe at least one type of customer for the product, in detail, then there's something wrong. And this definitely includes software engineers.
snow_mac 9y ago
This is really good stuff.
- _sdegutis 9y ago
  This.
shams93 9y ago
The life of an engineer is a life if sacrifice and 7 days a week work for five days pay. Often you never have a partner so you're the most highly taxed people in the country especially in California. While you often work triple time you're rarely if ever paid for overtime it's taken for granted that you're not ever compensated for 3/4 of the hours you work. Nothing can happen without you but sales people get a piece if the business they get normal business hours and can have a life and a family don't learn to code learn to sell this is terrific advice. At least you get commission and not worthless options in exchange for living off half the sleep a normal worker gets and continuous change and upheaval so you never get to have a life outside of work. Also continual layoffs and churn and then extra taxation when you are unemployed all told the life of an engineer is like the life of the slaves who row the cars on the Viking ship lol.
- shams93 9y ago
  It sounds aweful but I'm talking advantage of the relatively awesome access to information we have today to slowly get myself into indie hacking and building my own products for a particular niche I have found. That means even more work but eventually that may pay off with real freedom. Know when you can launch your own product with so little overhead it behooves you to learn to sell even if it means no free time at all until you can launch that could lead to quite a lot more free time in the future.
- hennsen 9y ago
  Your life must be very sad! Hope you get better soon ;)
- make3 9y ago
  I don't know where you work, but here (Montreal) it is seen poorly to work outside of the 9 to 5 range. Even in California, there is no doubt you can find 9-5 jobs where you can chill in the weekends. Work/Life balance is important. Also, if you work for worthless options, nothing is stopping you from switching jobs/asking for a different comp
  - stuxnet79 9y ago
madamelic 9y ago
Does anyone have any book suggestions for an engineer who wants to learn sales / convincing people? Do you recommend doing trial by fire and getting a sales job? I've realized that I am good at the technicals but terrible at selling why people should do what I say.
- selleck 9y ago
  I was in sales for 10+ years, now am a dev. Best sales book I ever read was New Sales Simplified. Really breaks down the sales process.
  - dreamfactored 9y ago
    Second this
- yodon 9y ago
  First, read Dale Carnegie’s “How to win friends and influence people.” Don’t let the cheesy title turn you off. The book is tremendous and a fun read and has been a literal best seller continuously since it was written more than 50 years ago.
  - madamelic 9y ago
    >First, read Dale Carnegie’s “How to win friends and influence people.” Already done. I am currently reading "7 Habits of Highly Effective People". How to Win Friends majorly influenced me already. Do you believe the methods explained in How to Win Friends are sufficient? They have absolutely helped already but I am not sure if it is just a matter continuing to apply or if there is another that could help level me up more. EDIT: Also on the reading list is Purple Cow by Seth Godin. I've heard good things about it and the first ~20 pages were pretty good.
    - yodon 9y ago
      After starting with Dale Carnegie’s book I’d move to something more about the storytelling aspects so you can construct your pitches well in addition to interacting well. I don’t have a “great” book to recommend there, but an example that pops to mind might be Say it in six[0]. This sort of book tends to be more formulaic, less universal, and every book advocates a completely different formula so you need to find the approach and style that works for you. That said, understanding that a pitch is a structured story and thinking about how to structure them is incredibly valuable. Simon Sinek’s Ted talk[1] is also really fun and well worth watching (and worth deconstructing how he makes his pitch about how to make pitches), but it’s more about high level consumer brand design than the inside the company project pitching like I think you’re asking about. [0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1629833.Say_It_in_Six https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1629833.Say_It_in_Six [1] https://www.ted.com/talks/simon_sinek_how_great_leaders_inspire_action/up-next https://www.ted.com/talks/simon_sinek_how_great_leaders_insp...
chrisreichel 9y ago
That's pretty good. Unfortunately, the word 'salesman' is source of shivers for most of engineers. I had to develop some of those skills, and I've got say that was difficult but since you are required to improve your soft skills, that might become leverage even on your technical day-to-day tasks: it makes you more empathetic to other people.
PhilipA 9y ago
Outbound sales is a very good way to gain insights into the needs of your potential customers (What are you missing, are messing bad etc.). I can really recommend creating a culture where the Sales team has a good way to report their findings. They are the first line of (new) customer interactions.
peterburkimsher 9y ago
tl;dr - Most of the article tries to justify why it's important to Learn to sell. Actionable guidance: "cold calling, sending tons of emails, doing prospect/company research and developing cold leads into warm ones" and get a job in sales ("role", "experience", "career"). My personal project is a Chinese learning page. https://pingtype.github.io https://pingtype.github.io I tried sending hundreds of emails, researching all the Chinese language centres in Taiwan to find contact email addresses for the department, and sometimes even the direct email addresses for the tutors. I wrote a short email explaining what my program does, and how it's helping me learn. Nobody replied. I made a YouTube video as an example of what it can do. I posted on Facebook, where my 3900 friends (who I all met face to face) mostly ignored it (29 likes). I submitted it as a Show HN. Nobody up-voted it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14907618 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14907618 Can anybody give more helpful instructions? I'm using Pingtype to read the Bible and song lyrics all the time, and my Chinese is improving - after failing with 9 other methods before. https://pingtype.github.io/docs/blog.html#failing https://pingtype.github.io/docs/blog.html#failing I really get discouraged by the lack of interest though, and the "trial by fire" of being ignored by the world is really depressing. For me there's no "uncertainty being on a quota compensation plan" - I would certainly be broke.
- nesyt 9y ago
  I'm not the target market and I don't have any idea how to use your tool. The UI reminds me of old grayscale Mac OS. Salespeople are (usually, I'm stereotyping) 'dressed to impress'. Maybe you should put a tie on your project.
  - peterburkimsher 9y ago
    What colour should the tie be, and where? Seriously. Do you want orange buttons? Specific, actionable feedback, please!
    - markfer 9y ago
      Do you want him to write the code for you too? It looks like an app from the 90's. There is zero design. If you want people to use it, you have to sell them on the idea of WHY and HOW they'll benefit. If you aren't willing to do that, then you've already lost.
imiric 9y ago
The article makes some valid points, but sales/marketing is just not for me. I understand how important it is for my product, but I just don't enjoy it, and would rather pay someone else to do it for me. Essentially, I would need a Jobs for my Woz, if I can ever aspire to be a Woz. :)
- dreamfactored 9y ago
  I used to have this same idea. I changed it when I looked into the costs of outsourcing sales vs outsourcing dev. Market rates are around 80:20 sales vs dev when outsourcing. That should tell you something about where money is made and where you may not want to limit your involvement. Funny you mention Jobs and Woz...
abhiyerra 9y ago
As an engineer coming into sales I found the thing I love about sales is that it is problem solving. If you can get in the door the main thing is you are solving a problem for your prospective client. That is no different from engineering you are interfacing with people instead of computers. There are some great books on sales and why sales gets a bad rap is most sales people don’t seem to have read those books. I now have a critical eye for sales stuff like you can have for code and just see how bad most sales are done.
- pitt1980 9y ago
  Love to hear which sales books you consider great
  - abhiyerra 9y ago
    - The challenger sale - Snap selling - Little red book of selling - Spin selling - thinking fast and slow All of these are of the mindset of help your customer first and foremost, the sale is a secondary effect of the helping. And given my nature that has made sales a lot easier since I’m not an extroverted manipulator, I’m an introverted problem solver.
    - pitt1980 9y ago
      thanks
- dreamfactored 9y ago
  Yep agree 100%. It's amazing how bad the general standards are in sales. A lot of people cargo culting off sales as portrayed in the movies and doing the opposite of what they should. Maybe it should be taught in schools.
siliconc0w 9y ago
One of my first jobs out of college was software sales. Really opened my eyes to the absurdity of that industry. Very wolf of wallstreeet-esque. The tech was mostly repackaged opensource software with a nicer UI and the senior sales guys were doing copious drugs and bringing down like six figure commissions on multi-million dollar contracts. They hired an army of associates to generate leads and then swooped in to grab the commission. The play was to cold call the shit of company, weasel you way into a decision maker's schedule, and basically roll the dice they might buy your software because they needed to check a box - it barely mattered what the thing actually did and beyond a well rehearsed script no one understood even the basics of the technology/problem space. It was also very feast or famine - a few made absurd cash but most lived on a precarious edge where they felt they might be fired at any moment. Understanding this is how the world actually works was a valuable education. I do feel with the rise of 'big tech' things have improved a bit and there is a renewed interest in approaching business problems with data and something that approximates a pseudo objective science-like process. But barely.
- __sha3d2 9y ago
  > I do feel with the rise of 'big tech' things have improved a bit Haha. I'm a technical salesperson that is the black sheep of my sales org. Things are worse now.
  - mcny 9y ago
    > Haha. I'm a technical salesperson that is the black sheep of my sales org. Things are worse now. Besides that, how is life at Oracle?
- Top19 9y ago
  Worked at Oracle for years, the sales cowboys of IT for better or worse. Sales has improved a lot. A lot of the younger people coming in are much more moral than previous generations. A lot of sales has moved to inside sales as opposed to field sales. Not quite as fun sometimes, but easier on people’s families and schedules, less abuse of expense accounts, going to strip clubs, etc. Also so much of what inside sales does is recorded, there is the possibility of much more accountability (e.g. harder to lie to customers). Sales has improved a lot, but I think we’ve traded that for declines in the morals and increases in the absurdity of marketing. Everything from false claims / fake news to serious privacy concerns.
potta_coffee 9y ago
Just don't be one of the salespeople that promises the client a feature that doesn't exist, then returns to the team after making the sale and says "You have to build this now." F--- that noise.
- devmunchies 9y ago
  Thats why its good for a salesrep to be technical and understand the product and how much work it would take for feature X. If the potential sale is worth the extra eng work then, hell yeah, go ahead and promise the feature. My last company did that to close some multi-million dollar deals and only took a quarter to build.
- HeyLaughingBoy 9y ago
  I literally just did exactly that half an hour ago. Of course, it's my company and I'm both the salesperson and engineer, but sometimes you have to sell shit that doesn't exist yet.
  - EKLM-ZK88 9y ago
    I think the issue he's talking about is more along the lines of "hey we promised X _and_ that we could deliver it in Y" when Y is an unreasonable amount of time. Situations like that almost always lead to death marches in my experience.
    - convolvatron 9y ago
      hopefully you will never see the the salesperson charging into the engineer meeting yelling "I promised the customer 6 months ago that we would ship this feature in 3 months, where the hell is it" at a sea of faces that had clearly never heard of any such thing.
nickjj 9y ago
If anyone is interested I did a recent interview on CEO Library[0] where I dropped a bunch of book recommendations on selling products, services and yourself. I personally sell online video training courses for developers so it's something I've been hyper focused on for the last 2 years. During that time about 20,000 people have signed up to at least 1 of my paid courses. I think becoming slightly better at selling has also made me a much better programmer, because your mindset shifts entirely. It's not just about naming things too. It's easier to see the bigger picture on something. It helps scope the entire project. [0]: https://www.theceolibrary.com/nick-janetakis-2771.html https://www.theceolibrary.com/nick-janetakis-2771.html
markfer 9y ago
As a sales leader and consultant, I kept being asked to offer weekly personalized sales coaching for technical founders. I launched it a few weeks ago and so far it's been pretty great for both parties. Being able to sit down on a weekly basis to game plan the sales approach, go over calls, and hold them accountable has been immeasurable. p.s. if anyone is interested - I'm in the process of launching a "Selling 101" online course for founders to cover the fundamentals of sales (finding leads, cold calling, performing demonstrations, closing deals, etc).
- moflome 9y ago
  Not sure you saw the 2017 First Round State of Venture survey [6] results, but anxiety over hiring sales staff has become the No. 1 priority for startup founders (was tech staff). I think you're on to something... assuming you focus on startups, maybe Pre-A round? [6] http://stateofstartups.firstround.com/2017/#introduction http://stateofstartups.firstround.com/2017/#introduction
  - markfer 9y ago
    Yeah, was definitely interesting to see that. That's exactly the intended focus. Essentially a crash course for tech founders to start selling in their early days.
- otto_ortega 9y ago
  Let me know when you have more info about that "Selling 101" online course. I'm interested.
  - markfer 9y ago
    Sounds good. Do you want to email me? It's in my bio. Couldn't find yours.
- Nimitz14 9y ago
  I assume you will advertise on your website?
tomxor 9y ago
> It doesn’t matter how brilliant your software engineering is if no one buys it. That goes both ways. The problems arise when sales start dictating how engineers do their work. The point is you need _both_, and they each need to respect the others work... unless you want to run a company like orcale and milk products into destruction, but then as we know - oracle doesn't invest in the future of their products.
- grasshopperpurp 9y ago
  Not a perfect metaphor, because the tasks are so different, but it's kind of like a coach and a GM in football. If they're not on the same page, they make each other look worse.
  - tomxor 9y ago
    perhaps not but: > If they're not on the same page, they make each other look worse This is right, engineers need to understand the problems that their end users have and of those problems those that severely affect sales should be considered carefully... however what seems to happen more often is sales or management end up dictating the solution to a problem... but software solutions are software engineers jobs. This happens to me so commonly but thankfully I do not work in a company with a rigid hierarchy, which means rather than being forced to blindly follow a request I go and find out the context that this request originated from, understand the problem and then propose a suitable solution - everyone is _always_ happier. But this requires autonomy and respect from all members, something that rigid hierarchies appear to sometimes oppress (but then I've only ever been a lucky observer of such institutions so maybe i'm wrong).
    - grasshopperpurp 9y ago
      That sounds very annoying, and I infer that some people have it even worse. What efforts do you see upper management making to bring the two sides together? I notice that as I get to know someone better, I can understand our differences by understanding the ways in which we process information differently. Of course there will be exceptions, but sales people and engineers (beyond their tasks/goals being different) have different strengths and weaknesses as people and processors; sometimes the differences aren't better or worse - just different. Day-to-day, how often do sales people and engineers problem solve together?
joshwcomeau 9y ago
> It doesn’t matter how brilliant your software engineering is if no one buys it. Right, because so many people buy Facebook products, or Twitter, or Google... Many, if not most, software products don't sell anything. While there are tons of problems with getting 100% of your revenue from ads, the fact remains that many companies don't have anything to sell to their consumers. Of course, you have to make a good, sticky product, and so there is marketing involved... just not the sort of 1930s handshake-and-a-smile that this article seems to be describing. That said, my own experience is biased (I currently work for a non-profit!), and so the snarkiness of this reply probably isn't warranted. Surely for many places, sales experience is valuable... but I certainly wouldn't rank it higher over software development, at least not with the places I've worked at.
- frozenport 9y ago
  Selling your idea, perhaps to donors, is a kind of selling.
- pathseeker 9y ago
  That statement really only applies in the consumer space. Businesses pay for software all of the time and a decent sales team is critical to any B2B software.
- aaavl2821 9y ago
  A lot of people do buy facebook and google products. Adwords is a product. I am not familiar with the sales process for google and fb ads, but id imagine, at least in the early days, that there was some handshaking etc involved before people really understood the value of advertising on those platforms
- pc86 9y ago
  We spend several hundreds of dollars a day on Facebook ads and know of many companies spending thousands or tens of thousands a day. that's what FB is selling, isn't it?
- ksk 9y ago
  Finding companies that this article doesn't apply to doesn't invalidate the article. Everything has to be taken in context. You can apply your own layer of analysis and contextualize it differently. For e.g. Having a hygienic and safe place to work is critical because if an employee doesn't feel safe at work, they won't be able to work as effectively, or stress causes lower productivity, etc, etc. The primary, unchanging goal of any business anywhere is to stay in business. Sales bring in cash, and cash is king. Nothing else will keep you in business other than cash. All of those companies you mentioned were financed by burning through millions of dollars of somebody else's money. That is not the majority of companies. IMHO, the article makes a lot of sense. I'd rank software development either equal or below sales too. YMMV.
lcfcjs2 9y ago
Written by a true salesman.
Jerry2 9y ago
Does anyone have a recommendation for a good book or an audio/video course on sales for beginners? I'd like to learn this skill in 2018...
- EGreg 9y ago
  Bill Baren has some things
- markfer 9y ago
  I'll be launching mine shortly - I can let you know when it's live if you'd like.
  - Jerry2 9y ago
    Sure!
syntaxing 9y ago
I agree with the author of the article that sales is important to any organization. It's a chicken and egg game between engineering and sales. No sales means no customer but no engineer means no product. I feel like sales gets a bad rep from engineering because whenever we do projects, it feels like we do the work and they get the glory and money (which may or may not be true). The worse is when a company cuts out engineers from the decision process for project requirements. We end up being liable to lucrative claims that other make. That being said, I absolutely DISAGREE that everyone should get some hands-on sales experience. Just like how not everyone is suited for engineering, not everyone is suited for sales. The author comes from a product management role so I would guess s/he is more extroverted than most engineers. I have met many design engineers that are ridiculously introverted. However, that's the beautiful thing about engineering. It doesn't matter. If you can design something that solves the customers problem, then you are doing a good job. A good manager would make sure a good design engineer get's shielded from the political bs. Unfortunately, the engineering culture is turning into a culture where we promote those with charisma rather than a good designing skillset.
- dreamfactored 9y ago
  Many of the best sales people are introverted. It can be a very strong advantage when you need to ask insightful questions, actively listen, and project integrity. Strong extroverts can be very weak in those areas and many would kill for that last superpower in particular. Having done both roles I have no doubt that every engineer would benefit from learning about sales and having some practise in it. Regardless of whether they pursue it as a career, it is incredibly widely applicable in many areas of life, from selling your ideas, to getting jobs, to dating. If someone really sucks at it, they will benefit immeasurably throughout their life from being slightly less bad. They are basically handicapped without being aware of it.
supertiger 9y ago
s/sales/marketing every point stays valid
sekou 9y ago
> Casting a wide net is simply part of the game, of course, but wasting your prospect’s time is bad selling. Every good sales professional knows this, which is why the best ones put in the time, effort and attention to detail to make their pitches – even the opening ones – as tailored and relevant as possible. The book "High Probability Selling" by Jacques Werth offers some good solutions to approaching sales with the intent of quickly connecting your product to the customers who want or need it most.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
jcoffland 9y ago
> Sales is the whole reason we build anything; it’s how we assign value to what we do. What a sad sad statement.
- TomMarius 9y ago
  Why?
jlengrand 9y ago
On a side note, do people have good resources on how to learn 'sales' as a software engineer? I know how to sell myself and concepts pretty well inside the organization. Getting money from customers is a while different ball game
1_2__4 9y ago
My counter argument is I’ve tried to take this advice multiple times in my life and each time came to the (re)conclusion that I will never be able to think of it as anything but lying and manufactured conflict. Some of us just don’t have brains that allow for that kind of thinking, at least not without severe anxiety and discomfort. I can’t sell. I’ll never be able to sell. I think that makes me feel like a more honest person. I’m okay with that trade off.
- Sevii 9y ago
  It may be that you haven't come across a mental model that makes sense to you. There are honest sales people, even ones selling used cars. Zig Ziglar's Secrets of Closing the Sale is a good model for thinking about sales.
- dreamfactored 9y ago
  Sales is about discovering what people's real problems are and helping them find a solution. It's the polar opposite of inauthenticity, but there are an awful lot of clueless salespeople who are trying to live up to the stereotype they've seen in movies and which you are talking about. It's a strange job because in some ways it's like being a counsellor, but at the same time a ruthless numbers game (for the salesperson) and therefore very stressful for them.
welder 9y ago
> I find it remarkable how little the tech world talks about software sales, given how central it is to everything we do. Sales is the whole reason we build anything; it’s how we assign value to what we do. Nope, not for consumer products. SF doesn't talk about sales because consumer products don't need sales at first.
- mlevental 9y ago
  name one consumer sales startup other than Amazon
- sogen 9y ago
  > consumer products don't need sales UH!? Sales(money) is the blood of Any business. (Here I include Anything i.e. charities).
egfx 9y ago
This sounds interesting in theory. As an engineer starting out, where would you specifically go to start on a sales career? I just looked at Craigslist and the ads look really sketchy. I'm thinking to come in and interview for am engineering role and then say, you know I was thinking..
danschumann 9y ago
I'm curious how the author thinks of marketing vs sales. And is sales as important in companies where the product is cheaper, like a $10-$20/month subscription, or is marketing more important in that scenario.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
vadimberman 9y ago
When I cofounded my first startup, I had to participate in the sales calls (most of them). It was a very illuminating experience. Now, in my second one, I often lead the charge. As an engineer, you start to understand why sales people overcommit, oversell, and overpromise. Why they can't produce a sale. It's not always their fault. But the good ones normally know what works and what doesn't. A good sales person: * knows or takes time to learn the product to the point of a junior techie * tries hard to work in tandem with the techies * is NOT a frat boy / girl, but knows to talk to people of all walks of life, and in today's globalised world, of all backgrounds * has the character to say "no" when it's better to walk away * is at least in their late 30s or older * a great listener trying to solve the customer's problem, not push a new shiny toy * mature enough to lead a company. While over-selling, "make-a-buck-now-lose-everything-later" idiots prevail, sales jobs are tough. It is hard for us engineers to grasp sometimes what is means to have your compensation ALWAYS be tied to some figures - so-called "performance", which is a combination of your ability to convince, the market, and the products you are selling. Imagine that, as an engineer, you'd get a deduction for every bug the customer discovers; feels different, doesn't it? For a great fictional portrayal of a (pre-tech but enterprise) sales person's life, watch "The Big Kahuna".

329 points by ntang 9y ago

This is really important. I love programming and am somewhat introverted, but being newlywed with a wife who couldn't work (visa), a mortgage, and a commission plan really made me learn to sell. The really good salespeople aren't deceptive, and I luckily learned from them. Also: if you're at a good company the engineers don't scorn the sales people (instead: "you guys bring in the money that pays our salaries") and the sales folks actually sell the product to people who will benefit from it.

hardtke 9y ago
I've always tried to sit in on a few sales calls at any place I've worked and have encouraged people working for me to do the same. It's valuable to see your products from the Sales team and customer perspective. The surprising thing I've observed is how great sales people spend most of the call listening to problems, not offering solutions.
- bluetwo 9y ago
  Ding-ding-ding. That's the secret.
  - cabinguy 9y ago
    That’s right. We like to say “professionals ask questions, amateurs make statements.” The “sales process” is just a series of questions. The close is the natural ending to a great presentation.
- gumby 9y ago
  I always have every member of the exec team attend a sales call per quarter. Yep, even the CFO. Amazing the impact it has on the staff meetings, much less the decisions made.
  - ethbro 9y ago
    Amen. If everyone at the org can't describe at least one type of customer for the product, in detail, then there's something wrong. And this definitely includes software engineers.

snow_mac 9y ago

This is really good stuff.

_sdegutis 9y ago
This.

shams93 9y ago

The life of an engineer is a life if sacrifice and 7 days a week work for five days pay. Often you never have a partner so you're the most highly taxed people in the country especially in California. While you often work triple time you're rarely if ever paid for overtime it's taken for granted that you're not ever compensated for 3/4 of the hours you work. Nothing can happen without you but sales people get a piece if the business they get normal business hours and can have a life and a family don't learn to code learn to sell this is terrific advice. At least you get commission and not worthless options in exchange for living off half the sleep a normal worker gets and continuous change and upheaval so you never get to have a life outside of work. Also continual layoffs and churn and then extra taxation when you are unemployed all told the life of an engineer is like the life of the slaves who row the cars on the Viking ship lol.

shams93 9y ago
It sounds aweful but I'm talking advantage of the relatively awesome access to information we have today to slowly get myself into indie hacking and building my own products for a particular niche I have found. That means even more work but eventually that may pay off with real freedom. Know when you can launch your own product with so little overhead it behooves you to learn to sell even if it means no free time at all until you can launch that could lead to quite a lot more free time in the future.
hennsen 9y ago
Your life must be very sad! Hope you get better soon ;)
make3 9y ago
I don't know where you work, but here (Montreal) it is seen poorly to work outside of the 9 to 5 range. Even in California, there is no doubt you can find 9-5 jobs where you can chill in the weekends. Work/Life balance is important. Also, if you work for worthless options, nothing is stopping you from switching jobs/asking for a different comp
- stuxnet79 9y ago

madamelic 9y ago

Does anyone have any book suggestions for an engineer who wants to learn sales / convincing people? Do you recommend doing trial by fire and getting a sales job? I've realized that I am good at the technicals but terrible at selling why people should do what I say.

selleck 9y ago
I was in sales for 10+ years, now am a dev. Best sales book I ever read was New Sales Simplified. Really breaks down the sales process.
- dreamfactored 9y ago
  Second this
yodon 9y ago
First, read Dale Carnegie’s “How to win friends and influence people.” Don’t let the cheesy title turn you off. The book is tremendous and a fun read and has been a literal best seller continuously since it was written more than 50 years ago.
- madamelic 9y ago
  >First, read Dale Carnegie’s “How to win friends and influence people.” Already done. I am currently reading "7 Habits of Highly Effective People". How to Win Friends majorly influenced me already. Do you believe the methods explained in How to Win Friends are sufficient? They have absolutely helped already but I am not sure if it is just a matter continuing to apply or if there is another that could help level me up more. EDIT: Also on the reading list is Purple Cow by Seth Godin. I've heard good things about it and the first ~20 pages were pretty good.
  - yodon 9y ago
    After starting with Dale Carnegie’s book I’d move to something more about the storytelling aspects so you can construct your pitches well in addition to interacting well. I don’t have a “great” book to recommend there, but an example that pops to mind might be Say it in six[0]. This sort of book tends to be more formulaic, less universal, and every book advocates a completely different formula so you need to find the approach and style that works for you. That said, understanding that a pitch is a structured story and thinking about how to structure them is incredibly valuable. Simon Sinek’s Ted talk[1] is also really fun and well worth watching (and worth deconstructing how he makes his pitch about how to make pitches), but it’s more about high level consumer brand design than the inside the company project pitching like I think you’re asking about. [0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1629833.Say_It_in_Six https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1629833.Say_It_in_Six [1] https://www.ted.com/talks/simon_sinek_how_great_leaders_inspire_action/up-next https://www.ted.com/talks/simon_sinek_how_great_leaders_insp...

chrisreichel 9y ago

That's pretty good. Unfortunately, the word 'salesman' is source of shivers for most of engineers. I had to develop some of those skills, and I've got say that was difficult but since you are required to improve your soft skills, that might become leverage even on your technical day-to-day tasks: it makes you more empathetic to other people.

PhilipA 9y ago

Outbound sales is a very good way to gain insights into the needs of your potential customers (What are you missing, are messing bad etc.). I can really recommend creating a culture where the Sales team has a good way to report their findings. They are the first line of (new) customer interactions.

peterburkimsher 9y ago

tl;dr - Most of the article tries to justify why it's important to Learn to sell. Actionable guidance: "cold calling, sending tons of emails, doing prospect/company research and developing cold leads into warm ones" and get a job in sales ("role", "experience", "career"). My personal project is a Chinese learning page. https://pingtype.github.io https://pingtype.github.io I tried sending hundreds of emails, researching all the Chinese language centres in Taiwan to find contact email addresses for the department, and sometimes even the direct email addresses for the tutors. I wrote a short email explaining what my program does, and how it's helping me learn. Nobody replied. I made a YouTube video as an example of what it can do. I posted on Facebook, where my 3900 friends (who I all met face to face) mostly ignored it (29 likes). I submitted it as a Show HN. Nobody up-voted it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14907618 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14907618 Can anybody give more helpful instructions? I'm using Pingtype to read the Bible and song lyrics all the time, and my Chinese is improving - after failing with 9 other methods before. https://pingtype.github.io/docs/blog.html#failing https://pingtype.github.io/docs/blog.html#failing I really get discouraged by the lack of interest though, and the "trial by fire" of being ignored by the world is really depressing. For me there's no "uncertainty being on a quota compensation plan" - I would certainly be broke.

nesyt 9y ago
I'm not the target market and I don't have any idea how to use your tool. The UI reminds me of old grayscale Mac OS. Salespeople are (usually, I'm stereotyping) 'dressed to impress'. Maybe you should put a tie on your project.
- peterburkimsher 9y ago
  What colour should the tie be, and where? Seriously. Do you want orange buttons? Specific, actionable feedback, please!
  - markfer 9y ago
    Do you want him to write the code for you too? It looks like an app from the 90's. There is zero design. If you want people to use it, you have to sell them on the idea of WHY and HOW they'll benefit. If you aren't willing to do that, then you've already lost.

imiric 9y ago

The article makes some valid points, but sales/marketing is just not for me. I understand how important it is for my product, but I just don't enjoy it, and would rather pay someone else to do it for me. Essentially, I would need a Jobs for my Woz, if I can ever aspire to be a Woz. :)

dreamfactored 9y ago
I used to have this same idea. I changed it when I looked into the costs of outsourcing sales vs outsourcing dev. Market rates are around 80:20 sales vs dev when outsourcing. That should tell you something about where money is made and where you may not want to limit your involvement. Funny you mention Jobs and Woz...

abhiyerra 9y ago

As an engineer coming into sales I found the thing I love about sales is that it is problem solving. If you can get in the door the main thing is you are solving a problem for your prospective client. That is no different from engineering you are interfacing with people instead of computers. There are some great books on sales and why sales gets a bad rap is most sales people don’t seem to have read those books. I now have a critical eye for sales stuff like you can have for code and just see how bad most sales are done.

pitt1980 9y ago
Love to hear which sales books you consider great
- abhiyerra 9y ago
  - The challenger sale - Snap selling - Little red book of selling - Spin selling - thinking fast and slow All of these are of the mindset of help your customer first and foremost, the sale is a secondary effect of the helping. And given my nature that has made sales a lot easier since I’m not an extroverted manipulator, I’m an introverted problem solver.
  - pitt1980 9y ago
    thanks
dreamfactored 9y ago
Yep agree 100%. It's amazing how bad the general standards are in sales. A lot of people cargo culting off sales as portrayed in the movies and doing the opposite of what they should. Maybe it should be taught in schools.

siliconc0w 9y ago

One of my first jobs out of college was software sales. Really opened my eyes to the absurdity of that industry. Very wolf of wallstreeet-esque. The tech was mostly repackaged opensource software with a nicer UI and the senior sales guys were doing copious drugs and bringing down like six figure commissions on multi-million dollar contracts. They hired an army of associates to generate leads and then swooped in to grab the commission. The play was to cold call the shit of company, weasel you way into a decision maker's schedule, and basically roll the dice they might buy your software because they needed to check a box - it barely mattered what the thing actually did and beyond a well rehearsed script no one understood even the basics of the technology/problem space. It was also very feast or famine - a few made absurd cash but most lived on a precarious edge where they felt they might be fired at any moment. Understanding this is how the world actually works was a valuable education. I do feel with the rise of 'big tech' things have improved a bit and there is a renewed interest in approaching business problems with data and something that approximates a pseudo objective science-like process. But barely.

__sha3d2 9y ago
> I do feel with the rise of 'big tech' things have improved a bit Haha. I'm a technical salesperson that is the black sheep of my sales org. Things are worse now.
- mcny 9y ago
  > Haha. I'm a technical salesperson that is the black sheep of my sales org. Things are worse now. Besides that, how is life at Oracle?
Top19 9y ago
Worked at Oracle for years, the sales cowboys of IT for better or worse. Sales has improved a lot. A lot of the younger people coming in are much more moral than previous generations. A lot of sales has moved to inside sales as opposed to field sales. Not quite as fun sometimes, but easier on people’s families and schedules, less abuse of expense accounts, going to strip clubs, etc. Also so much of what inside sales does is recorded, there is the possibility of much more accountability (e.g. harder to lie to customers). Sales has improved a lot, but I think we’ve traded that for declines in the morals and increases in the absurdity of marketing. Everything from false claims / fake news to serious privacy concerns.

potta_coffee 9y ago

Just don't be one of the salespeople that promises the client a feature that doesn't exist, then returns to the team after making the sale and says "You have to build this now." F--- that noise.

devmunchies 9y ago
Thats why its good for a salesrep to be technical and understand the product and how much work it would take for feature X. If the potential sale is worth the extra eng work then, hell yeah, go ahead and promise the feature. My last company did that to close some multi-million dollar deals and only took a quarter to build.
HeyLaughingBoy 9y ago
I literally just did exactly that half an hour ago. Of course, it's my company and I'm both the salesperson and engineer, but sometimes you have to sell shit that doesn't exist yet.
- EKLM-ZK88 9y ago
  I think the issue he's talking about is more along the lines of "hey we promised X _and_ that we could deliver it in Y" when Y is an unreasonable amount of time. Situations like that almost always lead to death marches in my experience.
  - convolvatron 9y ago
    hopefully you will never see the the salesperson charging into the engineer meeting yelling "I promised the customer 6 months ago that we would ship this feature in 3 months, where the hell is it" at a sea of faces that had clearly never heard of any such thing.

nickjj 9y ago

If anyone is interested I did a recent interview on CEO Library[0] where I dropped a bunch of book recommendations on selling products, services and yourself. I personally sell online video training courses for developers so it's something I've been hyper focused on for the last 2 years. During that time about 20,000 people have signed up to at least 1 of my paid courses. I think becoming slightly better at selling has also made me a much better programmer, because your mindset shifts entirely. It's not just about naming things too. It's easier to see the bigger picture on something. It helps scope the entire project. [0]: https://www.theceolibrary.com/nick-janetakis-2771.html https://www.theceolibrary.com/nick-janetakis-2771.html

markfer 9y ago

As a sales leader and consultant, I kept being asked to offer weekly personalized sales coaching for technical founders. I launched it a few weeks ago and so far it's been pretty great for both parties. Being able to sit down on a weekly basis to game plan the sales approach, go over calls, and hold them accountable has been immeasurable. p.s. if anyone is interested - I'm in the process of launching a "Selling 101" online course for founders to cover the fundamentals of sales (finding leads, cold calling, performing demonstrations, closing deals, etc).

moflome 9y ago
Not sure you saw the 2017 First Round State of Venture survey [6] results, but anxiety over hiring sales staff has become the No. 1 priority for startup founders (was tech staff). I think you're on to something... assuming you focus on startups, maybe Pre-A round? [6] http://stateofstartups.firstround.com/2017/#introduction http://stateofstartups.firstround.com/2017/#introduction
- markfer 9y ago
  Yeah, was definitely interesting to see that. That's exactly the intended focus. Essentially a crash course for tech founders to start selling in their early days.
otto_ortega 9y ago
Let me know when you have more info about that "Selling 101" online course. I'm interested.
- markfer 9y ago
  Sounds good. Do you want to email me? It's in my bio. Couldn't find yours.
Nimitz14 9y ago
I assume you will advertise on your website?

tomxor 9y ago

> It doesn’t matter how brilliant your software engineering is if no one buys it. That goes both ways. The problems arise when sales start dictating how engineers do their work. The point is you need _both_, and they each need to respect the others work... unless you want to run a company like orcale and milk products into destruction, but then as we know - oracle doesn't invest in the future of their products.

grasshopperpurp 9y ago
Not a perfect metaphor, because the tasks are so different, but it's kind of like a coach and a GM in football. If they're not on the same page, they make each other look worse.
- tomxor 9y ago
  perhaps not but: > If they're not on the same page, they make each other look worse This is right, engineers need to understand the problems that their end users have and of those problems those that severely affect sales should be considered carefully... however what seems to happen more often is sales or management end up dictating the solution to a problem... but software solutions are software engineers jobs. This happens to me so commonly but thankfully I do not work in a company with a rigid hierarchy, which means rather than being forced to blindly follow a request I go and find out the context that this request originated from, understand the problem and then propose a suitable solution - everyone is _always_ happier. But this requires autonomy and respect from all members, something that rigid hierarchies appear to sometimes oppress (but then I've only ever been a lucky observer of such institutions so maybe i'm wrong).
  - grasshopperpurp 9y ago
    That sounds very annoying, and I infer that some people have it even worse. What efforts do you see upper management making to bring the two sides together? I notice that as I get to know someone better, I can understand our differences by understanding the ways in which we process information differently. Of course there will be exceptions, but sales people and engineers (beyond their tasks/goals being different) have different strengths and weaknesses as people and processors; sometimes the differences aren't better or worse - just different. Day-to-day, how often do sales people and engineers problem solve together?

joshwcomeau 9y ago

> It doesn’t matter how brilliant your software engineering is if no one buys it. Right, because so many people buy Facebook products, or Twitter, or Google... Many, if not most, software products don't sell anything. While there are tons of problems with getting 100% of your revenue from ads, the fact remains that many companies don't have anything to sell to their consumers. Of course, you have to make a good, sticky product, and so there is marketing involved... just not the sort of 1930s handshake-and-a-smile that this article seems to be describing. That said, my own experience is biased (I currently work for a non-profit!), and so the snarkiness of this reply probably isn't warranted. Surely for many places, sales experience is valuable... but I certainly wouldn't rank it higher over software development, at least not with the places I've worked at.

frozenport 9y ago
Selling your idea, perhaps to donors, is a kind of selling.
pathseeker 9y ago
That statement really only applies in the consumer space. Businesses pay for software all of the time and a decent sales team is critical to any B2B software.
aaavl2821 9y ago
A lot of people do buy facebook and google products. Adwords is a product. I am not familiar with the sales process for google and fb ads, but id imagine, at least in the early days, that there was some handshaking etc involved before people really understood the value of advertising on those platforms
pc86 9y ago
We spend several hundreds of dollars a day on Facebook ads and know of many companies spending thousands or tens of thousands a day. that's what FB is selling, isn't it?
ksk 9y ago
Finding companies that this article doesn't apply to doesn't invalidate the article. Everything has to be taken in context. You can apply your own layer of analysis and contextualize it differently. For e.g. Having a hygienic and safe place to work is critical because if an employee doesn't feel safe at work, they won't be able to work as effectively, or stress causes lower productivity, etc, etc. The primary, unchanging goal of any business anywhere is to stay in business. Sales bring in cash, and cash is king. Nothing else will keep you in business other than cash. All of those companies you mentioned were financed by burning through millions of dollars of somebody else's money. That is not the majority of companies. IMHO, the article makes a lot of sense. I'd rank software development either equal or below sales too. YMMV.

lcfcjs2 9y ago

Written by a true salesman.

Jerry2 9y ago

Does anyone have a recommendation for a good book or an audio/video course on sales for beginners? I'd like to learn this skill in 2018...

EGreg 9y ago
Bill Baren has some things
markfer 9y ago
I'll be launching mine shortly - I can let you know when it's live if you'd like.
- Jerry2 9y ago
  Sure!

syntaxing 9y ago

I agree with the author of the article that sales is important to any organization. It's a chicken and egg game between engineering and sales. No sales means no customer but no engineer means no product. I feel like sales gets a bad rep from engineering because whenever we do projects, it feels like we do the work and they get the glory and money (which may or may not be true). The worse is when a company cuts out engineers from the decision process for project requirements. We end up being liable to lucrative claims that other make. That being said, I absolutely DISAGREE that everyone should get some hands-on sales experience. Just like how not everyone is suited for engineering, not everyone is suited for sales. The author comes from a product management role so I would guess s/he is more extroverted than most engineers. I have met many design engineers that are ridiculously introverted. However, that's the beautiful thing about engineering. It doesn't matter. If you can design something that solves the customers problem, then you are doing a good job. A good manager would make sure a good design engineer get's shielded from the political bs. Unfortunately, the engineering culture is turning into a culture where we promote those with charisma rather than a good designing skillset.

dreamfactored 9y ago
Many of the best sales people are introverted. It can be a very strong advantage when you need to ask insightful questions, actively listen, and project integrity. Strong extroverts can be very weak in those areas and many would kill for that last superpower in particular. Having done both roles I have no doubt that every engineer would benefit from learning about sales and having some practise in it. Regardless of whether they pursue it as a career, it is incredibly widely applicable in many areas of life, from selling your ideas, to getting jobs, to dating. If someone really sucks at it, they will benefit immeasurably throughout their life from being slightly less bad. They are basically handicapped without being aware of it.

supertiger 9y ago

s/sales/marketing every point stays valid

sekou 9y ago

> Casting a wide net is simply part of the game, of course, but wasting your prospect’s time is bad selling. Every good sales professional knows this, which is why the best ones put in the time, effort and attention to detail to make their pitches – even the opening ones – as tailored and relevant as possible. The book "High Probability Selling" by Jacques Werth offers some good solutions to approaching sales with the intent of quickly connecting your product to the customers who want or need it most.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

jcoffland 9y ago

> Sales is the whole reason we build anything; it’s how we assign value to what we do. What a sad sad statement.

TomMarius 9y ago
Why?

jlengrand 9y ago

On a side note, do people have good resources on how to learn 'sales' as a software engineer? I know how to sell myself and concepts pretty well inside the organization. Getting money from customers is a while different ball game

1_2__4 9y ago

My counter argument is I’ve tried to take this advice multiple times in my life and each time came to the (re)conclusion that I will never be able to think of it as anything but lying and manufactured conflict. Some of us just don’t have brains that allow for that kind of thinking, at least not without severe anxiety and discomfort. I can’t sell. I’ll never be able to sell. I think that makes me feel like a more honest person. I’m okay with that trade off.

Sevii 9y ago
It may be that you haven't come across a mental model that makes sense to you. There are honest sales people, even ones selling used cars. Zig Ziglar's Secrets of Closing the Sale is a good model for thinking about sales.
dreamfactored 9y ago
Sales is about discovering what people's real problems are and helping them find a solution. It's the polar opposite of inauthenticity, but there are an awful lot of clueless salespeople who are trying to live up to the stereotype they've seen in movies and which you are talking about. It's a strange job because in some ways it's like being a counsellor, but at the same time a ruthless numbers game (for the salesperson) and therefore very stressful for them.

welder 9y ago

> I find it remarkable how little the tech world talks about software sales, given how central it is to everything we do. Sales is the whole reason we build anything; it’s how we assign value to what we do. Nope, not for consumer products. SF doesn't talk about sales because consumer products don't need sales at first.

mlevental 9y ago
name one consumer sales startup other than Amazon
sogen 9y ago
> consumer products don't need sales UH!? Sales(money) is the blood of Any business. (Here I include Anything i.e. charities).

egfx 9y ago

This sounds interesting in theory. As an engineer starting out, where would you specifically go to start on a sales career? I just looked at Craigslist and the ads look really sketchy. I'm thinking to come in and interview for am engineering role and then say, you know I was thinking..

danschumann 9y ago

I'm curious how the author thinks of marketing vs sales. And is sales as important in companies where the product is cheaper, like a $10-$20/month subscription, or is marketing more important in that scenario.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

vadimberman 9y ago

When I cofounded my first startup, I had to participate in the sales calls (most of them). It was a very illuminating experience. Now, in my second one, I often lead the charge. As an engineer, you start to understand why sales people overcommit, oversell, and overpromise. Why they can't produce a sale. It's not always their fault. But the good ones normally know what works and what doesn't. A good sales person: * knows or takes time to learn the product to the point of a junior techie * tries hard to work in tandem with the techies * is NOT a frat boy / girl, but knows to talk to people of all walks of life, and in today's globalised world, of all backgrounds * has the character to say "no" when it's better to walk away * is at least in their late 30s or older * a great listener trying to solve the customer's problem, not push a new shiny toy * mature enough to lead a company. While over-selling, "make-a-buck-now-lose-everything-later" idiots prevail, sales jobs are tough. It is hard for us engineers to grasp sometimes what is means to have your compensation ALWAYS be tied to some figures - so-called "performance", which is a combination of your ability to convince, the market, and the products you are selling. Imagine that, as an engineer, you'd get a deduction for every bug the customer discovers; feels different, doesn't it? For a great fictional portrayal of a (pre-tech but enterprise) sales person's life, watch "The Big Kahuna".