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Common Programmer Health Problems

394 points by GVRV 16y ago

awolf 16y ago
My eyes used to be my weakest link. Then I got a pair of Gunnar Optics computer glasses. They soften the contrast of bright screens with their yellow tint, cut glare, have a slight corrective factor, and reduce airflow around my eyes keeping them more moist. They work wonders.
carbocation 16y ago
This is an interesting thing for Zed to share. Sleeping on your back is something that can exacerbate sleep apnea, so I would modify his otherwise quite pleasant sleep suggestions with that in mind.
- philwelch 16y ago
  If you have sleep apnea, go get yourself a damn CPAP machine and wear it when you sleep. Sleep apnea is almost, but not quite, as bad as never even sleeping. That means dozing off during every quiet moment of the day, having waking hallucinations, waking up just as tired as you felt when you went to bed, even sleeping all weekend. Your concentration and mental abilities end up just plain shot. I've known two people with sleep apnea and they both turned their lives around considerably when they had it treated.
  - carbocation 16y ago
    There is essentially a continuous normal distribution of "apneic" sleep features. There is no bright line between apnea and not apnea, though we create lines for simplicity's sake. Of course if you need CPAP, use CPAP. But there are plenty of people who have soft tissue that closes off the upper airway to a significant degree only when supine. These are the people who don't need to deal with the modest but non-zero risks associated with respiratory assistance — all by just sleeping in a different position.
leftnode 16y ago
I cannot stress how important it is to stay healthy. I used to be a competitive natural bodybuilder (which isn't the healthiest thing, overall) and a personal trainer, so being healthy was always a part of my life. After I graduated college, I didn't have enough time for them and let myself go. As a result, I get sick more often, and have back pain. I'm currently in the process of getting back into shape (not as a competitive bodybuilder, but just general fitness). So please, if you can avoid becoming unhealthy, do, and stay fit. There's literally no downside to it (that I can think of).
- jodrellblank 16y ago
  It's effortful, time consuming, boring, and involves changes of behaviour, self image and thought processes, and involves potentially standing out against peers, family, friends, colleagues and industry culture. If there were literally no down sides, everyone would do it by default.
joey_bananas 16y ago
It's hard to take health advice from a guy who considers martial arts to be a qualification in dispensing them. Especially when he trots out bullshit old wifes tales like caffeine leading to dehydration.
- a00021 16y ago
  >bullshit old wifes tales like caffeine leading to dehydration. [citation please] - I am genuinely curious about the current scientific consensus on that one, as IIRC I have heard the reverse claim in this talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM regarding Cola being stuffed with caffeine for both its normal effects and the diuretic side-effect (my memory could be failing me, of course). Cheers,
  - rue 16y ago
    Coffee etc. is still mostly water. One unit of coffee/cola/tea, compared to the same unit of water will A) give you slightly less water up front and B) cause some loss of fluid due to diuretic effect but overall you still gain fluids. It is by far not the best source of hydration, of course. You are much better off drinking water or (preferrably unsweetened) fruit/vegetable juices - or even just eating said fruit or vegetables. Hypotonic sports drinks have their place too, but not when your exercise consists of walking up to the fridge.
    - jodrellblank 16y ago
      Unsweetened fruit juice is still high in sugar comparable to soda levels, and high in fructose which is particularly bad sugar to be high in. Sugar levels in juice compared to Coca-Cola: http://www.hookedonjuice.com/ http://www.hookedonjuice.com/ Dr Davis' Goodbye Fructose: http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/goodbye-fructose.html http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/goodbye-fructose.h... Dr Robert Lustig's what happens when we eat fructose and why it's bad video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM Aside from the hydration, you're probably better off with even sweetened coffee than unsweetened fruit juice.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
jacquesm 16y ago
Mental health should be on that list.
- Confusion 16y ago
  Funny, but not nice and not necessary. Downvoters: you are aware that Zed lists problems he has struggled with and that his generalization of this list to 'common problems programmers face' is perhaps not warranted for all problems mentioned? If it was a serious suggestion, jacquesm would have included an explanation of why programmers would commonly face mental health problems.
  - mechanical_fish 16y ago
    Everyone, and I do mean everyone, with a mental health issue understands the first problem with mental health: People try to laugh it off, or hide it out of fear that others will laugh it off. Since people literally end up dead at an early age because of this attitude, your flippant comment seems likely to be downvoted by folks who have encountered mental illness, and that is a lot of people. Such is the risk of being flippant. Fortunately there's a -4 limit and you'll live. Do you really need an explanation of why programmers might be at risk of mental health problems? To first order, Zed's list speaks for itself: being in poor health tends to depress you, especially the part about bad sleep. The depression and the health effects feed back on each other in a nasty way. But I'd add that loneliness is a big factor. These days we have amazing tech like IRC and Twitter and HN, and it's easy to imagine that we can have rich social lives without ever seeing another person except through the medium of text. Well, your brain, designed and conditioned as it is for the presence of actual physical humans, may think differently. I spent eighteen months working as a solo consultant in my office, meeting clients only via email and the occasional phone call, and it eventually drove me bananas. My wife still laughs about the day I took half an hour off to go to the barber and then raved about the awesome social experience. Even if you work in an office the isolation can be frustrating, because as a programmer you routinely work on problems that nobody else understands or wants to understand - even your fellow programmers, who are trying to focus on problems of their own. To interact with others you need to really break your focus, but that causes you to slow down, so maybe you try not to do it, and before you know it everyone else has gone home and it is dark and you're wandering through an empty parking lot... Remember, solitary confinement is one of the worst tortures you can inflict on a human.
jarin 16y ago
I can definitely see how bleeding out of your rectum might interfere with your programming flow.
- barrkel 16y ago
  I believe a tight bubble (intestine + vein) of blood hanging out of your rectum (i.e. an actual hemorrhoid) would actually be more distracting than the bleeding, which would be a relief.
rb2k_ 16y ago
Something that really upped my motivation for running is using my cellphone's gps to log data. I coded a small web-app to show a little bit of stats (http://fitness.marc-seeger.de/category/joggen http://fitness.marc-seeger.de/category/joggen / http://github.com/rb2k/run-a-log http://github.com/rb2k/run-a-log) as my first little project with ruby/sinatra. My inner nerd loves to collect data and do stuff with it and my body is probably thankful for it (just finished my 800th recorded kilometer) p.s. I currently use "cardio trainer" on android which would also offer a webinterface to data. Before that I used MyTracks (android), Nokia Sportstracker (Symbian), jogstats (webos)
SandB0x 16y ago
Another related problem is hygiene. I've met too many programmers that smell. Some people don't wash, don't wear deodorant or just don't realise that their clothes need washing even if they look clean. It's especially annoying because it's so easy to fix!
- jrockway 16y ago
  That is a different class of problem. The health problems Zed mentions affect you, not others. Doesn't matter to your coworkers if you have wrist pain or diabetes. On the other hard, you smelling doesn't affect you in any way (you get used to your own stench), it affects others. So this is not a health issue, it's a generic "getting along with others" issue.
  - SandB0x 16y ago
    It's not exactly the same, but it affects you in that people will start to avoid you as much as possible. Would you recommend someone with B.O. issues for a job? One big distinction is that people often know they're unfit, but are normally oblivious to hygiene problems. I've never had the nerve to tell anyone myself. Edit: It works both ways. If someone is unproductive due to their health problems, that definitely affects their coworkers. Diabetes, fair enough, but there's definitely an argument for putting many easily avoidable physical problems in the "getting along with others" category. Edit Edit: If you're going to downvote, let's have your counter-arguments please.
    - imd 16y ago
      I think hygiene is important, but Zed was not remiss in leaving it out of a health article. A separate article about programmer social issues would be great, though.
    - eru 16y ago
      > Edit Edit: If you're going to downvote, let's have your counter-arguments please. Off-topic: I also noticed that a lot of comments get some early attention from eager downvoters. I know it's frustrating. Just wait a bit for the score to settle.
jc-denton 16y ago
EXERCISE REGULARLY. Nobody forces you to drink coffee. Really I don't think it's so hard to do programming w/o becoming a complete nerd.
seshagiric 16y ago
Very well written and practical. Thanks for sharing this.
wallflower 16y ago
If you don't read the rest of this, get a styrofoam foam noodle around 12" in diameter and 3 feet in length. Lie on it to relax and stretch your back. Back stores have them. They're expensive but I use mine twice a day. For those of you who type like madmen with no regard for ergonomics and work breaks, I did that since I was 9. I have systems in place to avoid that now. Through grade school, high school, college. I was a blazing fast slouch typer. After I graduated from grad school, I started getting pains. So I would rest up and be as good as new overnight. There reaches a point where if you ignore the problem long enough it becomes persistent. Finally, it became such that even after a weekend of rest it would (pain, soreness) still remain. Maybe at a level three out of ten. I went to see a physical therapist and he tested my grip strength - my left hand was stronger. And I'm right handed. Leaving out thousands of ergonomics purchases, the best thing you can do is to start a swimming program. Swimming is zero-impact; you're not pounding the pavement. It is excellent for working your full body. Swimming is hard if you don't know how to swim because you're basically putting all your energy into fighting water resistance. Elite swimmers are three times more efficient than average swimmers (91% of energy fighting water vs 97% for average swimmers - meaning they can put 9% towards forward propulsion). Total Immersion has an awesome swim-like-a-fish program (http://totalimmersion.net http://totalimmersion.net). For eyestrain, rest your eyes by looking at least twenty feet away every twenty minutes for at least twenty seconds (the 20-20-20 rule). If you wear corrective lenses, ask your optometrist for a computer Rx (that you can use while screen working). WorkPace software from Wellnomics is awesome because it forces me to micro-pause every 4 minutes for 20 seconds and stop working for 4 minutes every 14 minutes. Believe me, I am a very efficient programmer. Also, use the mouse with your non-dominant hand. For those of you who don't have health issues, realize that you will not take endless, pain-free typing for granted once you have soreness that becomes persistent. The only true rehabilitation would be to stop typing all together for a long time (2 years). Until then, I'm appreciating my job for what it is - something in the short term. Diversify your portfolio of skills - don't be over-weighted in tech. Start creating things that you own.
- AgentConundrum 16y ago
  micro-pause every 4 minutes for 20 seconds and stop working for 4 minutes every 14 minutes I doubt that's feasible for anyone working in an office, rather than for themselves. I ran the numbers a bit, and I assumed: a) that you work 4 minutes, break 20s, then work for - i.e. the clock resets after the break, b) the 14m breaks are wall clock, not non-break time, and c) when you return from a 14m break, the 4m clock resets. According to this, you're taking 19m of breaks per hour. I'd be fired if I only worked 2/3 of every hour. Edit: For anyone interested, I did this in Excel and it breaks down like this: work 4m, break 20s, work 4m, break 20s, work 4m, break 20s, work 1m, break 4m, work 4m, break 20s, work 4m, break 20s, work 2m, break 4m, work 4m, break 20s, work 4m, break 20s, work 1m20s, break 4m, work 4m, break 20s, work 4m, break 20s, work 1m, break 4m
illumen 16y ago
Give up guitar. Write less. Think. Solve problems in ways that use least typing.
- zedshaw 16y ago
  Well that'd be no fun.
- phatbyte 16y ago
  Why give up guitar ? Playing an instrument can be a very creative process and it's also an excellent way of relaxing. You can do whatever you want to do, just do it with moderation.
wyclif 16y ago
I'm a bit surprised Zed didn't mention getting a standing desk, or better yet building one (it's simple and cheap to do so). I think standing desks are an obvious remedy for back pain and discomfort. Your "core muscles" are used more than if you were sitting down, and it reduces the pressure on your spine caused by sitting upright in a typical office chair. A good, low-tech way to do this is to buy an unfinished door and paint or finish it yourself. If it has a doorknob cutout, just use it for cable management. Then get a pair of adjustable Stanley FatMax workhorses and you're in business: http://www.amazon.com/Stanley-11031-Telescopic-Plastic-Sawhorse/dp/B000MIVTJG http://www.amazon.com/Stanley-11031-Telescopic-Plastic-Sawho...
- StavrosK 16y ago
  I just sit in a 120 degree angle and have never had problems with my back, wrists, neck or anything. Just make sure the screen is high up that you don't have to bend your neck...
  - carbocation 16y ago
    Seriously, or just kidding? For years I have wanted to try a setup like this and would love to know how it actually feels to use one.
    - StavrosK 16y ago
      No, seriously. What sort of setup do you mean? I just lie back on my chair, so all you need is a chair with an adjustable back. I also lower it all the way down so the desk is at shoulder height. This forces you to rest your hands on your elbows instead of your wrists and to have them on a straight line. Your desk just needs to be deep enough to allow your arms to be on it past the midway to the elbow, so you don't have to actively raise your hands. Lowering your chair also has the benefit of bringing the screen at eye-height, but you could just get a high desk...
      - thwarted 16y ago
        This forces you to rest your hands on your elbows instead of your wrists and to have them on a straight line. ... deep enough to allow your arms to be on it past the midway to the elbow Agreed. I don't put the chair back, but I have two of those rubberized "keyboard" wrist supports (the ones that are about 20x3 inches) across the edge of my desk (one for each arm), and I type with the point of my elbows just off the wrist pads, my forearms supported by the base of my forearm just near the elbow. I found that if I rest the point of my elbow on the wrist pad it's not as comfortable. Since they are side by side, they stretch the entire length of where I'm going to move my arms, for both using the keyboard and mouse. And since my arms are supported near the elbow, the natural most effective typing position for my wrists is straight, or what high school typing teachers would call "up", not resting on something. The pads put my forearms almost perfectly level when my hands are on the keyboards. I don't use the gel or bead filled ones because they don't keep their shape as well, and I don't find their rounded edges to be as comfortable -- I know the exact position to be in based on being able to feel the edge of the pad with the base of my forearm. I need something to support the weight of my arm, not change its shape to the contour. Unfortunately the rubberized ones are getting hard to find. In a pinch, I use rubberized mousepads, which every office seems to have lying around and no one uses. When using these, I just put one under each elbow and use the edge of the desk like I'd use the edge of the keyboard wrist rest, feeling out the edge with the base of my forearm. This isn't ideal though. I need to stock up on more of these "keyboard wrist rests".
craftsman 16y ago
I've suffered from the low back problems he mentions, but mine was not primarily caused by sitting for long periods of time. It was from playing sports when I was younger--I really messed it up. However, I recently got an ergonomic chair after minor back surgery and it is awesome! It has made a big difference in how I sit and I am much more comfortable with it. I would also add: don't sit at your desk and eat your lunch and surf to HN. :) Go outside for a 20-30 minute walk. Walk somewhere different every day and look at things you haven't seen before. Not only do you get good exercise, you will spur your creativity and curiosity.
mhd 16y ago
But trust me on the sunscreen…
tomwalker 16y ago
As a medical doctor, i think its a good article the hacker community is not thought about in the medical community overall
mattmaroon 16y ago
This is decidedly unscientific and at least in the small part I read clearly uniformed. Eyesight problems from LCDs have nothing to do with fonts. It's staring at something that's bright and at a close range for hours at a time. Even if you were just watching YouTube for 8 hours a day you'd suffer.
- zedshaw 16y ago
  Yeah, a lot of eye health seems to be voodoo bullshit. But, you got any links to references on this? It might help people who have the problem.
  - keeptrying 16y ago
    This is an New Scientist article on an epidemiological study on the causes of myopia. The link is to a blog which copied the content. The original is behind a paywall. The fact that this paper is behind a paywall makes me freaking mad because it could literally save the eyesight of a huge number of people. Original Article: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20427331.100-generation-specs-stopping-the-shortsight-epidemic.html?page=1 http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20427331.100-generatio... Actual Content: http://www.sunilreddy.com/?p=1429 http://www.sunilreddy.com/?p=1429 An excerpt: On average the children in Sydney spent nearly 14 hours per week outside, and only 3 per cent developed myopia. In contrast, the children in Singapore spent just 3 hours outside, and 30 per cent developed myopia. Once again, close work had a minimal influence; the Australian children actually spent more time reading and in front of their computers than the Singaporeans
    - mattmaroon 16y ago
      From what I've read it's not proximity that matters. It's brightness at close range. http://www.poynton.com/notes/brightness_and_contrast/ http://www.poynton.com/notes/brightness_and_contrast/ gives us a good setup procedure.
- kilian 16y ago
  Still, everyone should use f.lux at night: http://www.stereopsis.com/flux/ http://www.stereopsis.com/flux/ :)
sigil 16y ago
Laptop ergonomics deserves a special mention. Because it forces your line of sight and wrist level to converge, there really is no ergonomic option -- either you hunch or you scrunch. Elevating the screen and either using an external keyboard or external monitor really helps.
- bphogan 16y ago
  Actually my Macbook Pro has improved my ergonomic situation. I use the built-in zoom tool, (it's the reason I bought a mac, as I have low vision) and because of the zoom feature, I can put the laptop wherever I find it comfortable but still see things. The zoom keeps me from hunching over or leaning in. Also, I use my middle finger on the trackpad, as I need to use the middle AND index fingers to "right click", and this slight turn of my wrist completely removed the wrist pain I get from using a mouse or a normal trackpad.
  - sigil 16y ago
    But don't you end up angling your head downward to see the screen? Or angling your forearms upward to reach the keyboard? All the ergonomics material I've read suggests keeping these on the level, or possibly even angling your forearms down a bit into your lap. Almost impossible to do with just a laptop.
    - bphogan 16y ago
      Yeah but my physician says it's better to look slightly downward at the screen. Which is kinda what you see with some of the standing desks too. Totally not an ergonomics guy... I just know what I was told. :/
    - jodrellblank 16y ago
      I've wondered about this ever since reading Peter Cochrane's comments on it. When people want to concentrate on things, we hunch over them. Nobody reads a book at arms length, head up. Nobody knits or threads a needls at arms length, or does any kind of paperwork that way. Why do we compute that way?
gfodor 16y ago
Quit coffee. I ended up in the hospital after being in the heat and being hypercaffinated, so I decided to quit. After the first few weeks of withdrawl, I've found that it is a net gain overall. No more feeling like crap until the first cup of the day. Better sleep. Clearer, less scattered thinking. I recently went on a trip with a friend who is still a heavy coffee drinker, and it was striking to see him suffer through the first several hours of the day before his second or third cup. Being able to wake up and feel great is well worth it. The thing you lose is the muli-hour high speed coding marathon. But lets be honest, how often is it that the result of these marathons isn't something you end up needing to rewrite anyway because you jumped in too quickly or failed to think it through? You could, of course, drink it "when you need it", but I've found that this is the slippery slope back into addiction. So, I just stay away. Edit: I've also found that a tall decaf from Starbucks can serve as a mental substitute for those days when I really crave it. I even get a slight placebo energy boost. "It's so good when it hits the lips" :)
- st3fan 16y ago
  Well there is drinking coffee, and DRINKING coffee. I sure enjoy a cup or two a day and I doubt that is excessive. Drinking lattes also has another nice side-effect: you get to drink some milk, for your daily calcium needs.
  - gfodor 16y ago
    Well, it depends on what cup, what coffee, and your body weight. If you're a skinny dude downing a venti from starbucks every morning, you're in a world of difference than if you brewed a lighter blend and drank from a small coffee cup. I found myself quite addicted drinking a grande from starbucks every morning. Before that cup I was pretty much useless.
    - matwood 16y ago
      Ligher roast coffees actually have more caffeine than the darker roast. The roasting process destroys caffeine. Alton Brown mentions this on the Good Eats episode about coffee :) Even then, from my additional readings on the topic the difference appears to be very small.
nileshk 16y ago
This will probably be controversial, but I believe that RSI (and typing-related carpel tunnel) is psychosomatic. I experienced what I thought was chronic RSI that I wasn't able to solve through any other means but reading Dr. John E Sarno's "The Mindbody Prescription" which I highly recommend reading. For 1.5 years I was not able to type without pain. I was able to rid myself of this pain in weeks through a psychological approach. It's been over 7 years since then and I haven't had problems. I also play guitar, bass guitar, and drums. It can be painful sometimes to play a lot if I haven't been practicing, but that pain goes away immediately, and I don't believe it contributes to a permanent or long-standing problem. Ergonomics is good for being comfortable and pain-free. And exercise is good for general health. But I don't think not doing so is going to give you chronic pain. Of course you should see a doctor to rule out diseases like multiple sclerosis. Here is a document that explains Sarno's ideas: http://www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/handout.doc http://www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/handout.doc Google cache of it for HTML: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CBoQITAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwebcache.googleusercontent.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dcache%3A6ZpktcdKS0kJ%3Awww.rsi.deas.harvard.edu%2Fhandout.doc%2Bhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.rsi.deas.harvard.edu%2Fhandout.doc%26cd%3D1%26hl%3Den%26ct%3Dclnk%26gl%3Dus&rct=j&q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rsi.deas.harvard.edu%2Fhandout.doc&ei=eM9eTLyWCML58Abz7byzDQ&usg=AFQjCNFDePk4TJUp7Sv8KeGlXMzQIEYArw&sig2=WpLK0EBD_odWgNcFL4_Etg&cad=rja http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&v... Keep in mind that this does not mean "it is all in your head"... The problem does cause a physical condition in your body, but the cause of it is psychological.
- mmt 16y ago
  Of course you should see a doctor to rule out diseases like multiple sclerosis. Autoimmune (e.g. Lupus) diseases are another important set to rule out. The good news is that, though not curable, many of the inflammatory ailments are easily and cheaply treatable. My advice: have your doctor consider the old NSAIDs first.Ketoprofen is my favorite, though Wyeth pulled it off the OTC market[1], so the lowest single-pill dose is pretty high[2]. Among friends and relatives who've tried it, it consistently counters inflammation, even though its pain relief varies down to nothing. Being old, it's cheap, too. [1] shortly after buying the company who marketed it under the brand "Orudis KT". The cynic in me says it's because Advil has a much higher profit margin. [2] 50mg compared to 12.5mg. Sometimes, 12.5mg once a day is all I've needed. Especially with the recent concerns over the safety of NSAIDs, needlessly quadrupling the dose seems foolish, so I hack the dosages. I could probably get a compounding pharmacy to do this for me, but that would eliminate the "cheap" advantage.
silentbicycle 16y ago
It sounds like a lot of these are symptoms of the real problem: People are so hell-bent on hyper-focusing for long hacking marathons that they ignore warning signs and neglect their bodies. Also: I did Aikido for a couple years, too, and know exactly which wrist stretches he means. They're great pre-typing stretches.
Enlightenment 16y ago
They sell these things at the store called vitamins. If you don't drink milk, then you should be taking vitamin D and vitamins too.
Enlightenment 16y ago
They sell these things at the store called vitamins. If you don't drink milk, then you should be taking vitamin D and vitamins too.
MicahNance 16y ago
Seriously? 65 comments and the top voted is about (off-topic) hygiene? With a community such as this, I expected a lot more advice and personal stories. To be fair, I guess this did get posted early on a Sunday. Many thanks to Zed for bringing it up the topic. I think it is always good for the programming community to hear different views on it. As we rely more and more on computers, mobile devices, etc., we're going to see these sorts of injuries more and more and I'm not sure the medical community knows how to deal with them yet. I read HN sometimes and there are so many people doing full time jobs, then coding at home, then playing guitar on top of that! It is depressing to read because I'm lucky if I can make it through lunch without my arms hurting some days. I don't think people in my camp speak up enough (partly because we are trying to type as little as possible). I haven't played my guitar in years while I try to cope. I've been to some physical therapy, but found that it didn't improve things much short or long term. If you do visit a doctor (which you probably should), just be aware that they may suggest surgery. Personally, I don't think that is the answer to RSI in most cases. I weight lift occasionally but I can't tell whether it is helping or hurting. I've always been curious about yoga, I just need a kick in the pants to get started. So, there's my personal story. As far as advice, I don't have much since I haven't actually found something that works well for me. I read "It's NOT Carpal Tunnel Syndrome" which was an short, interesting read, but ultimately didn't help me with my particular problem. It does have good general advice, a section with stretching exercises and nerve glides, etc.
- zedshaw 16y ago
  Hey, just from what you're saying it sounds like your wrists have gone a little too far. If you have constant pain in your hands from typing, and you can't play guitar, and this fact is consuming your life, then you should do something about it. I don't know if that's surgery, but you should at least talk to a specialist about your pain (not a general practitioner), and see what they say. Also try to take a week or more off and not touch a keyboard or guitar. If that helps then it may just be you need to change how you do things with your hands.
  - MicahNance 16y ago
    It isn't my wrists; it is my forearms. From my reading and (ortho) doc visits, Radial Tunnel Syndrome is the closest diagnosis to what I experience. It could just be tendinitis, though. I agree I need a week off, but from my past experience I know a week isn't enough. I'm going to try and take several weeks off later this year. Maybe my writeup sounded worse than it is. It isn't totally consuming my life, but it has been worsening again lately so the topic has been on my mind. I am not always in pain. I go through periods (days-weeks) of relative normalcy, but other periods where the pain is worse. I haven't played guitar because I try not to stress my arms while I'm home. I try to stay off the computer at home too, but you see how that is working out... I need some mental fortitude/willpower, too. What do you mean by "change how you do things with your hands"? I've tried a few different chairs, chair/desk heights, keyboards, and mice. My latest is putting my MS Natural 4000 in my lap to type. I think that is an alright position for my hands, but I wish its keys had a little less resistance than they do.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
alexyim 16y ago
Another useful thing is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myofascial_release http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myofascial_release. Go pick up the hardest foam roller you can handle and start rolling: http://www.amazon.com/Foam-Roller-6-x-36/dp/B000Y4W9VA/ http://www.amazon.com/Foam-Roller-6-x-36/dp/B000Y4W9VA/ It has done wonders for my body.
dylanz 16y ago
1. RSI: Take a week off, then, switch to Dvorak (maybe get a Kinesis keyboard if that helps you as well). 2. Back: Standing desk w/ nice architects chair. 3. Eyes: Get a Kindle and read PDF's/etc on it instead of computer. My quick $0.02 on the problems I've helped resolve from your list Zed. The other problems, I have yet to tackle, but, I probably should sooner than later! Great detailed post.
sushi 16y ago
Most of the problems mentioned won't even happen in the first place if one takes regular breaks. I recommend WorkRave for this: http://www.workrave.org/ http://www.workrave.org/
- Tichy 16y ago
  Or follow my twitter bot: http://twitter.com/officeworkout http://twitter.com/officeworkout (strictly non-scientific)
- silentbicycle 16y ago
  Or xwrits (http://www.lcdf.org/xwrits/ http://www.lcdf.org/xwrits/), on Unix.
msluyter 16y ago
I disagree with his advice on vitamin D, especially for those over 40 who have lost most of their ability to synthesize it from sunlight. See: http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/getting-vitamin-d-right.html http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/getting-vitamin-d-...
mathgladiator 16y ago
On Vitamin D, you need to be careful because it can also mess up your calcium levels. If you calcium levels change, then it can affect your magnesium levels. If your magnesium levels drop, then your muscles will hurt hard core. If you ignore the pain (and deal with it like a real man), then you will die.
earl 16y ago
Zed, you forgot kidney stones. One of the consequences of too much caffeine is it's easy to be dehydrated, which puts you at risk of kidney stones. Which essentially means you get the dubious pleasure of pissing razor sharp calcium rocks out your urethra. It hasn't happened to me, but it has happened to friends; based on their experiences, I wouldn't recommend it.
- c1sc0 16y ago
  Happened to my father & it was the most agonizing experience I have seen him go through. Kidney stones cripple you with pain, you can't sit, you can't lie down. It rips basic comfort out of your life for weeks on end.
grigory 16y ago
Something that worked really well for me is having several hobbies outside of work. It prevents me from just coding for 12 hours a day, and makes my life so much more enjoyable. A really big one for me is mountain biking. I always found it to be a great escape from whatever I had going on - school, work, relationships - you can really forget about all of that stuff on trails. Mountain biking at times feels more like an addiction, to be honest. Indeed, I own a shirt that reads "Mountain biking is as addictive as crack, but twice as expensive". I start feeling bad about myself and getting a bit anxious if I don't go out on trails for several days in a row. It sure feels great afterwards though - really push yourself, have fun, get that dose of adrenalin and be physically exhausted in the end. I always solve my toughest problems after "hardcore" biking sessions :-) Having talked to some hospital staff during my several biking-related emergency room visits, I can tell you that some forms of it (downhill-type stuff) are very hard on your joints, so don't over do it. If you're really into downhill racing and freeride, mix in several good XC sessions for cross-training. You'll be stronger and healthier. P.S.: another thing that really helps is having an active S.O., someone who'll drag you out of your work-mode and take you hiking several times a week, and who will want social interactions outside of "reading HN".
- sprout 16y ago
  I'm addicted to Swing Dancing.
wvl 16y ago
When you sit all day with your hands on a keyboard, your shoulders are constantly in internal rotation. Try this quick test: Hold a couple pens loosely in your hands with the points facing out, and stand naturally with your arms at your sides. Where are pens pointed? If they are pointed forward, then you've got excellent posture. If they are pointed diagonally inwards, you have slight internal rotation. If they are pointed almost straight inwards, then that internal rotation is severe. The point of this is that pushups, and everyone's favourite lift, the bench press, promote more internal rotation. Most office people would be far better served performing more pulling exercises than push. So deadlifts, rows, pull downs, pull ups, etc.
steve19 16y ago
CS departments should make all students attend a short course covering all of Zed's topics and the personal hygiene and mental health issues mentioned in this thread.
- shoover 16y ago
  Or better yet companies that expect people to sit at computers for 40-60-80 hours should. One good thing about meetings: sitting in them is easier on your hands, if it doesn't drive you crazy...
Qz 16y ago
While we're on the topic of computer use issues, thought I'd share something I discovered for mouse use. I realize lots of us like to go solo keyboard, but for when you have to use a mouse, try this: Put the mouse (m] sideways pointed left at the bottom left side of your keyboard: [Keyboard] (m] Rest your elbow on the desk, so your arm is parallel to the keyboard. I've been doing this for a few months now, and it's been a huge improvement. It might take a while to get used to the mouse being perpendicular to the pointer orientation on screen, but maybe not (didn't for me). The position is somewhat adapted from the tai chi standing practice posture.
- sprout 16y ago
  I do this when I'm forced to work at a desk. Though presently I'm sitting- well, reclining across two chairs, my keyboard in my lap. My mouse is sitting on a table to my right, so I actually raise my arm so it's at a 90 degree angle from my body to use the mouse. That works pretty well (incidentally, I'm reclining to spare my knees - keeping them bent for hours at a time is not a good thing, better to leave them straight. )
- Encosia 16y ago
  I can confirm that this setup has legs, long-term. I've been using my mice that way for over a decade now, after accidentally stumbling onto it. A good cordless mouse makes this configuration much more convenient (I'm still using an aging Logitech G7, for example). Curious, do you write left handed? I do, and so does the only other person I know of that uses this setup.
  - Qz 16y ago
    Actually no, I'm right-handed. I don't even remember how I ended up with the setup... maybe my mouse just gradually moved leftwards across the desk in search of better comfort!
stretchwithme 16y ago
This article mentions several problems caused by stiff muscles and strategies for coping and preventing them. It may be useful to understand the mechanisms that cause and perpetuate this problem. There's the muscle sheaths that have stiffened by the lack of use of the full range of motion and the constant deposition of collagen, which literally glues the sheath to itself. This tight sheath can impair blood flow to a muscle, especially when the muscle is contracted for a long time. The contracting muscle presses out against a tight sheath. Blood takes the path of least resistance. That lack of healthy blood flow can cause the sarcomeres, the contractile unit of muscle, to get stuck in their contracted position. This is how a muscle gets tight and actually shorter. When a muscle gets very stiff, a trigger point can develop. A trigger point is just an area where many sarcomeres are tight. We certainly notice trigger points, but the muscle gradually hardens for a while before a trigger point develops. The hard muscles are shorter and thicker and this makes manipulating the sheath to break up the collagen much harder. But if the muscle is softened first, it can be done. Massage is how you soften the muscle and get the sarcomeres in it functioning again. Massage pushes depleted blood out and then new blood is pulled in from the capillaries. But there's still one other factor and that is the way muscles communicate with each other to accomplish work. When one muscle is engaged, other muscles receive nerve signals to help. And if there is a trigger point in one muscle, other muscles are engaged via the nerves. So you may have a tense muscles but it may be another muscle that is the root cause. All of the muscles need to considered and massaged in a systematic way.
- AgentConundrum 16y ago
  All of the muscles need to considered and massaged in a systematic way. I wish I had realized this years ago. I developed RSI symptoms, or at least they became severe enough that I took note of them, about two months ago. I did a lot of research after that and ended up booking my first ever massage. When the therapist started working on my forearms, she explained that I was very tight, and she wasn't surprised it was causing me pain. Oddly, my left arm ended up being the worse off of the two. After the massage, I felt great and could type relatively normally again without pain. She also told me that my neck muscles were essentially made of stone, and asked me if I regularly got headaches (I did). I guess what I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't underestimate the value of regular massages. It would probably cost around $1k/year to go once a month, but I think it's worth it to keep yourself at the top of your game. Therapeutic massage is often used to manage chronic pain, so I see no reason why it couldn't also be used to prevent it (or cure it if you're in the early stages).
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
ruang 16y ago
Semi-fast once a week. Much easier than trying to calculate your calorie count each and every meal. I skip dinner and breakfast the next morning, so I'm without food for 24 hours.
stretchwithme 16y ago
Here's an easy way to release some muscular stiffness if you're having lower back pain while sitting. Stand up and feel your lower back and whether you can massage it easily. With your arms back at your sides, bend both legs just 1/4 of the way down. Do this 3 to 5 times. Now stretch the front of each thigh by holding the foot to your butt. Don't use a lot of effort to do this. Just hold in place for 5 seconds or until it completely stretches. Now feel your lower back again and see if you can massage it. If its much easier to massage now, the source of your pain is your tight thighs. But now you have a way to cope with and reduce the consequences of this tightness.
xom 16y ago
What's a door jam?
- PidGin128 16y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Door_jamb&oldid=376045823&printable=yes http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Door_jamb&oldi... Depending on the context that inspired you to ask, the literal explanation may not help.
c00p3r 16y ago
Run, Forrest! Run!

394 points by GVRV 16y ago

awolf 16y ago

My eyes used to be my weakest link. Then I got a pair of Gunnar Optics computer glasses. They soften the contrast of bright screens with their yellow tint, cut glare, have a slight corrective factor, and reduce airflow around my eyes keeping them more moist. They work wonders.

carbocation 16y ago

This is an interesting thing for Zed to share. Sleeping on your back is something that can exacerbate sleep apnea, so I would modify his otherwise quite pleasant sleep suggestions with that in mind.

philwelch 16y ago
If you have sleep apnea, go get yourself a damn CPAP machine and wear it when you sleep. Sleep apnea is almost, but not quite, as bad as never even sleeping. That means dozing off during every quiet moment of the day, having waking hallucinations, waking up just as tired as you felt when you went to bed, even sleeping all weekend. Your concentration and mental abilities end up just plain shot. I've known two people with sleep apnea and they both turned their lives around considerably when they had it treated.
- carbocation 16y ago
  There is essentially a continuous normal distribution of "apneic" sleep features. There is no bright line between apnea and not apnea, though we create lines for simplicity's sake. Of course if you need CPAP, use CPAP. But there are plenty of people who have soft tissue that closes off the upper airway to a significant degree only when supine. These are the people who don't need to deal with the modest but non-zero risks associated with respiratory assistance — all by just sleeping in a different position.

leftnode 16y ago

I cannot stress how important it is to stay healthy. I used to be a competitive natural bodybuilder (which isn't the healthiest thing, overall) and a personal trainer, so being healthy was always a part of my life. After I graduated college, I didn't have enough time for them and let myself go. As a result, I get sick more often, and have back pain. I'm currently in the process of getting back into shape (not as a competitive bodybuilder, but just general fitness). So please, if you can avoid becoming unhealthy, do, and stay fit. There's literally no downside to it (that I can think of).

jodrellblank 16y ago
It's effortful, time consuming, boring, and involves changes of behaviour, self image and thought processes, and involves potentially standing out against peers, family, friends, colleagues and industry culture. If there were literally no down sides, everyone would do it by default.

joey_bananas 16y ago

It's hard to take health advice from a guy who considers martial arts to be a qualification in dispensing them. Especially when he trots out bullshit old wifes tales like caffeine leading to dehydration.

a00021 16y ago
>bullshit old wifes tales like caffeine leading to dehydration. [citation please] - I am genuinely curious about the current scientific consensus on that one, as IIRC I have heard the reverse claim in this talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM regarding Cola being stuffed with caffeine for both its normal effects and the diuretic side-effect (my memory could be failing me, of course). Cheers,
- rue 16y ago
  Coffee etc. is still mostly water. One unit of coffee/cola/tea, compared to the same unit of water will A) give you slightly less water up front and B) cause some loss of fluid due to diuretic effect but overall you still gain fluids. It is by far not the best source of hydration, of course. You are much better off drinking water or (preferrably unsweetened) fruit/vegetable juices - or even just eating said fruit or vegetables. Hypotonic sports drinks have their place too, but not when your exercise consists of walking up to the fridge.
  - jodrellblank 16y ago
    Unsweetened fruit juice is still high in sugar comparable to soda levels, and high in fructose which is particularly bad sugar to be high in. Sugar levels in juice compared to Coca-Cola: http://www.hookedonjuice.com/ http://www.hookedonjuice.com/ Dr Davis' Goodbye Fructose: http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/goodbye-fructose.html http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/goodbye-fructose.h... Dr Robert Lustig's what happens when we eat fructose and why it's bad video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM Aside from the hydration, you're probably better off with even sweetened coffee than unsweetened fruit juice.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

jacquesm 16y ago

Mental health should be on that list.

Confusion 16y ago
Funny, but not nice and not necessary. Downvoters: you are aware that Zed lists problems he has struggled with and that his generalization of this list to 'common problems programmers face' is perhaps not warranted for all problems mentioned? If it was a serious suggestion, jacquesm would have included an explanation of why programmers would commonly face mental health problems.
- mechanical_fish 16y ago
  Everyone, and I do mean everyone, with a mental health issue understands the first problem with mental health: People try to laugh it off, or hide it out of fear that others will laugh it off. Since people literally end up dead at an early age because of this attitude, your flippant comment seems likely to be downvoted by folks who have encountered mental illness, and that is a lot of people. Such is the risk of being flippant. Fortunately there's a -4 limit and you'll live. Do you really need an explanation of why programmers might be at risk of mental health problems? To first order, Zed's list speaks for itself: being in poor health tends to depress you, especially the part about bad sleep. The depression and the health effects feed back on each other in a nasty way. But I'd add that loneliness is a big factor. These days we have amazing tech like IRC and Twitter and HN, and it's easy to imagine that we can have rich social lives without ever seeing another person except through the medium of text. Well, your brain, designed and conditioned as it is for the presence of actual physical humans, may think differently. I spent eighteen months working as a solo consultant in my office, meeting clients only via email and the occasional phone call, and it eventually drove me bananas. My wife still laughs about the day I took half an hour off to go to the barber and then raved about the awesome social experience. Even if you work in an office the isolation can be frustrating, because as a programmer you routinely work on problems that nobody else understands or wants to understand - even your fellow programmers, who are trying to focus on problems of their own. To interact with others you need to really break your focus, but that causes you to slow down, so maybe you try not to do it, and before you know it everyone else has gone home and it is dark and you're wandering through an empty parking lot... Remember, solitary confinement is one of the worst tortures you can inflict on a human.

jarin 16y ago

I can definitely see how bleeding out of your rectum might interfere with your programming flow.

barrkel 16y ago
I believe a tight bubble (intestine + vein) of blood hanging out of your rectum (i.e. an actual hemorrhoid) would actually be more distracting than the bleeding, which would be a relief.

rb2k_ 16y ago

Something that really upped my motivation for running is using my cellphone's gps to log data. I coded a small web-app to show a little bit of stats (http://fitness.marc-seeger.de/category/joggen http://fitness.marc-seeger.de/category/joggen / http://github.com/rb2k/run-a-log http://github.com/rb2k/run-a-log) as my first little project with ruby/sinatra. My inner nerd loves to collect data and do stuff with it and my body is probably thankful for it (just finished my 800th recorded kilometer) p.s. I currently use "cardio trainer" on android which would also offer a webinterface to data. Before that I used MyTracks (android), Nokia Sportstracker (Symbian), jogstats (webos)

SandB0x 16y ago

Another related problem is hygiene. I've met too many programmers that smell. Some people don't wash, don't wear deodorant or just don't realise that their clothes need washing even if they look clean. It's especially annoying because it's so easy to fix!

jrockway 16y ago
That is a different class of problem. The health problems Zed mentions affect you, not others. Doesn't matter to your coworkers if you have wrist pain or diabetes. On the other hard, you smelling doesn't affect you in any way (you get used to your own stench), it affects others. So this is not a health issue, it's a generic "getting along with others" issue.
- SandB0x 16y ago
  It's not exactly the same, but it affects you in that people will start to avoid you as much as possible. Would you recommend someone with B.O. issues for a job? One big distinction is that people often know they're unfit, but are normally oblivious to hygiene problems. I've never had the nerve to tell anyone myself. Edit: It works both ways. If someone is unproductive due to their health problems, that definitely affects their coworkers. Diabetes, fair enough, but there's definitely an argument for putting many easily avoidable physical problems in the "getting along with others" category. Edit Edit: If you're going to downvote, let's have your counter-arguments please.
  - imd 16y ago
    I think hygiene is important, but Zed was not remiss in leaving it out of a health article. A separate article about programmer social issues would be great, though.
  - eru 16y ago
    > Edit Edit: If you're going to downvote, let's have your counter-arguments please. Off-topic: I also noticed that a lot of comments get some early attention from eager downvoters. I know it's frustrating. Just wait a bit for the score to settle.

jc-denton 16y ago

EXERCISE REGULARLY. Nobody forces you to drink coffee. Really I don't think it's so hard to do programming w/o becoming a complete nerd.

seshagiric 16y ago

Very well written and practical. Thanks for sharing this.

wallflower 16y ago

If you don't read the rest of this, get a styrofoam foam noodle around 12" in diameter and 3 feet in length. Lie on it to relax and stretch your back. Back stores have them. They're expensive but I use mine twice a day. For those of you who type like madmen with no regard for ergonomics and work breaks, I did that since I was 9. I have systems in place to avoid that now. Through grade school, high school, college. I was a blazing fast slouch typer. After I graduated from grad school, I started getting pains. So I would rest up and be as good as new overnight. There reaches a point where if you ignore the problem long enough it becomes persistent. Finally, it became such that even after a weekend of rest it would (pain, soreness) still remain. Maybe at a level three out of ten. I went to see a physical therapist and he tested my grip strength - my left hand was stronger. And I'm right handed. Leaving out thousands of ergonomics purchases, the best thing you can do is to start a swimming program. Swimming is zero-impact; you're not pounding the pavement. It is excellent for working your full body. Swimming is hard if you don't know how to swim because you're basically putting all your energy into fighting water resistance. Elite swimmers are three times more efficient than average swimmers (91% of energy fighting water vs 97% for average swimmers - meaning they can put 9% towards forward propulsion). Total Immersion has an awesome swim-like-a-fish program (http://totalimmersion.net http://totalimmersion.net). For eyestrain, rest your eyes by looking at least twenty feet away every twenty minutes for at least twenty seconds (the 20-20-20 rule). If you wear corrective lenses, ask your optometrist for a computer Rx (that you can use while screen working). WorkPace software from Wellnomics is awesome because it forces me to micro-pause every 4 minutes for 20 seconds and stop working for 4 minutes every 14 minutes. Believe me, I am a very efficient programmer. Also, use the mouse with your non-dominant hand. For those of you who don't have health issues, realize that you will not take endless, pain-free typing for granted once you have soreness that becomes persistent. The only true rehabilitation would be to stop typing all together for a long time (2 years). Until then, I'm appreciating my job for what it is - something in the short term. Diversify your portfolio of skills - don't be over-weighted in tech. Start creating things that you own.

AgentConundrum 16y ago
micro-pause every 4 minutes for 20 seconds and stop working for 4 minutes every 14 minutes I doubt that's feasible for anyone working in an office, rather than for themselves. I ran the numbers a bit, and I assumed: a) that you work 4 minutes, break 20s, then work for - i.e. the clock resets after the break, b) the 14m breaks are wall clock, not non-break time, and c) when you return from a 14m break, the 4m clock resets. According to this, you're taking 19m of breaks per hour. I'd be fired if I only worked 2/3 of every hour. Edit: For anyone interested, I did this in Excel and it breaks down like this: work 4m, break 20s, work 4m, break 20s, work 4m, break 20s, work 1m, break 4m, work 4m, break 20s, work 4m, break 20s, work 2m, break 4m, work 4m, break 20s, work 4m, break 20s, work 1m20s, break 4m, work 4m, break 20s, work 4m, break 20s, work 1m, break 4m

illumen 16y ago

Give up guitar. Write less. Think. Solve problems in ways that use least typing.

zedshaw 16y ago
Well that'd be no fun.
phatbyte 16y ago
Why give up guitar ? Playing an instrument can be a very creative process and it's also an excellent way of relaxing. You can do whatever you want to do, just do it with moderation.

wyclif 16y ago

I'm a bit surprised Zed didn't mention getting a standing desk, or better yet building one (it's simple and cheap to do so). I think standing desks are an obvious remedy for back pain and discomfort. Your "core muscles" are used more than if you were sitting down, and it reduces the pressure on your spine caused by sitting upright in a typical office chair. A good, low-tech way to do this is to buy an unfinished door and paint or finish it yourself. If it has a doorknob cutout, just use it for cable management. Then get a pair of adjustable Stanley FatMax workhorses and you're in business: http://www.amazon.com/Stanley-11031-Telescopic-Plastic-Sawhorse/dp/B000MIVTJG http://www.amazon.com/Stanley-11031-Telescopic-Plastic-Sawho...

StavrosK 16y ago
I just sit in a 120 degree angle and have never had problems with my back, wrists, neck or anything. Just make sure the screen is high up that you don't have to bend your neck...
- carbocation 16y ago
  Seriously, or just kidding? For years I have wanted to try a setup like this and would love to know how it actually feels to use one.
  - StavrosK 16y ago
    No, seriously. What sort of setup do you mean? I just lie back on my chair, so all you need is a chair with an adjustable back. I also lower it all the way down so the desk is at shoulder height. This forces you to rest your hands on your elbows instead of your wrists and to have them on a straight line. Your desk just needs to be deep enough to allow your arms to be on it past the midway to the elbow, so you don't have to actively raise your hands. Lowering your chair also has the benefit of bringing the screen at eye-height, but you could just get a high desk...
    - thwarted 16y ago
      This forces you to rest your hands on your elbows instead of your wrists and to have them on a straight line. ... deep enough to allow your arms to be on it past the midway to the elbow Agreed. I don't put the chair back, but I have two of those rubberized "keyboard" wrist supports (the ones that are about 20x3 inches) across the edge of my desk (one for each arm), and I type with the point of my elbows just off the wrist pads, my forearms supported by the base of my forearm just near the elbow. I found that if I rest the point of my elbow on the wrist pad it's not as comfortable. Since they are side by side, they stretch the entire length of where I'm going to move my arms, for both using the keyboard and mouse. And since my arms are supported near the elbow, the natural most effective typing position for my wrists is straight, or what high school typing teachers would call "up", not resting on something. The pads put my forearms almost perfectly level when my hands are on the keyboards. I don't use the gel or bead filled ones because they don't keep their shape as well, and I don't find their rounded edges to be as comfortable -- I know the exact position to be in based on being able to feel the edge of the pad with the base of my forearm. I need something to support the weight of my arm, not change its shape to the contour. Unfortunately the rubberized ones are getting hard to find. In a pinch, I use rubberized mousepads, which every office seems to have lying around and no one uses. When using these, I just put one under each elbow and use the edge of the desk like I'd use the edge of the keyboard wrist rest, feeling out the edge with the base of my forearm. This isn't ideal though. I need to stock up on more of these "keyboard wrist rests".

craftsman 16y ago

I've suffered from the low back problems he mentions, but mine was not primarily caused by sitting for long periods of time. It was from playing sports when I was younger--I really messed it up. However, I recently got an ergonomic chair after minor back surgery and it is awesome! It has made a big difference in how I sit and I am much more comfortable with it. I would also add: don't sit at your desk and eat your lunch and surf to HN. :) Go outside for a 20-30 minute walk. Walk somewhere different every day and look at things you haven't seen before. Not only do you get good exercise, you will spur your creativity and curiosity.

mhd 16y ago

But trust me on the sunscreen…

tomwalker 16y ago

As a medical doctor, i think its a good article the hacker community is not thought about in the medical community overall

mattmaroon 16y ago

This is decidedly unscientific and at least in the small part I read clearly uniformed. Eyesight problems from LCDs have nothing to do with fonts. It's staring at something that's bright and at a close range for hours at a time. Even if you were just watching YouTube for 8 hours a day you'd suffer.

zedshaw 16y ago
Yeah, a lot of eye health seems to be voodoo bullshit. But, you got any links to references on this? It might help people who have the problem.
- keeptrying 16y ago
  This is an New Scientist article on an epidemiological study on the causes of myopia. The link is to a blog which copied the content. The original is behind a paywall. The fact that this paper is behind a paywall makes me freaking mad because it could literally save the eyesight of a huge number of people. Original Article: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20427331.100-generation-specs-stopping-the-shortsight-epidemic.html?page=1 http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20427331.100-generatio... Actual Content: http://www.sunilreddy.com/?p=1429 http://www.sunilreddy.com/?p=1429 An excerpt: On average the children in Sydney spent nearly 14 hours per week outside, and only 3 per cent developed myopia. In contrast, the children in Singapore spent just 3 hours outside, and 30 per cent developed myopia. Once again, close work had a minimal influence; the Australian children actually spent more time reading and in front of their computers than the Singaporeans
  - mattmaroon 16y ago
    From what I've read it's not proximity that matters. It's brightness at close range. http://www.poynton.com/notes/brightness_and_contrast/ http://www.poynton.com/notes/brightness_and_contrast/ gives us a good setup procedure.
kilian 16y ago
Still, everyone should use f.lux at night: http://www.stereopsis.com/flux/ http://www.stereopsis.com/flux/ :)

sigil 16y ago

Laptop ergonomics deserves a special mention. Because it forces your line of sight and wrist level to converge, there really is no ergonomic option -- either you hunch or you scrunch. Elevating the screen and either using an external keyboard or external monitor really helps.

bphogan 16y ago
Actually my Macbook Pro has improved my ergonomic situation. I use the built-in zoom tool, (it's the reason I bought a mac, as I have low vision) and because of the zoom feature, I can put the laptop wherever I find it comfortable but still see things. The zoom keeps me from hunching over or leaning in. Also, I use my middle finger on the trackpad, as I need to use the middle AND index fingers to "right click", and this slight turn of my wrist completely removed the wrist pain I get from using a mouse or a normal trackpad.
- sigil 16y ago
  But don't you end up angling your head downward to see the screen? Or angling your forearms upward to reach the keyboard? All the ergonomics material I've read suggests keeping these on the level, or possibly even angling your forearms down a bit into your lap. Almost impossible to do with just a laptop.
  - bphogan 16y ago
    Yeah but my physician says it's better to look slightly downward at the screen. Which is kinda what you see with some of the standing desks too. Totally not an ergonomics guy... I just know what I was told. :/
  - jodrellblank 16y ago
    I've wondered about this ever since reading Peter Cochrane's comments on it. When people want to concentrate on things, we hunch over them. Nobody reads a book at arms length, head up. Nobody knits or threads a needls at arms length, or does any kind of paperwork that way. Why do we compute that way?

gfodor 16y ago

Quit coffee. I ended up in the hospital after being in the heat and being hypercaffinated, so I decided to quit. After the first few weeks of withdrawl, I've found that it is a net gain overall. No more feeling like crap until the first cup of the day. Better sleep. Clearer, less scattered thinking. I recently went on a trip with a friend who is still a heavy coffee drinker, and it was striking to see him suffer through the first several hours of the day before his second or third cup. Being able to wake up and feel great is well worth it. The thing you lose is the muli-hour high speed coding marathon. But lets be honest, how often is it that the result of these marathons isn't something you end up needing to rewrite anyway because you jumped in too quickly or failed to think it through? You could, of course, drink it "when you need it", but I've found that this is the slippery slope back into addiction. So, I just stay away. Edit: I've also found that a tall decaf from Starbucks can serve as a mental substitute for those days when I really crave it. I even get a slight placebo energy boost. "It's so good when it hits the lips" :)

st3fan 16y ago
Well there is drinking coffee, and DRINKING coffee. I sure enjoy a cup or two a day and I doubt that is excessive. Drinking lattes also has another nice side-effect: you get to drink some milk, for your daily calcium needs.
- gfodor 16y ago
  Well, it depends on what cup, what coffee, and your body weight. If you're a skinny dude downing a venti from starbucks every morning, you're in a world of difference than if you brewed a lighter blend and drank from a small coffee cup. I found myself quite addicted drinking a grande from starbucks every morning. Before that cup I was pretty much useless.
  - matwood 16y ago
    Ligher roast coffees actually have more caffeine than the darker roast. The roasting process destroys caffeine. Alton Brown mentions this on the Good Eats episode about coffee :) Even then, from my additional readings on the topic the difference appears to be very small.

nileshk 16y ago

This will probably be controversial, but I believe that RSI (and typing-related carpel tunnel) is psychosomatic. I experienced what I thought was chronic RSI that I wasn't able to solve through any other means but reading Dr. John E Sarno's "The Mindbody Prescription" which I highly recommend reading. For 1.5 years I was not able to type without pain. I was able to rid myself of this pain in weeks through a psychological approach. It's been over 7 years since then and I haven't had problems. I also play guitar, bass guitar, and drums. It can be painful sometimes to play a lot if I haven't been practicing, but that pain goes away immediately, and I don't believe it contributes to a permanent or long-standing problem. Ergonomics is good for being comfortable and pain-free. And exercise is good for general health. But I don't think not doing so is going to give you chronic pain. Of course you should see a doctor to rule out diseases like multiple sclerosis. Here is a document that explains Sarno's ideas: http://www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/handout.doc http://www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/handout.doc Google cache of it for HTML: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CBoQITAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwebcache.googleusercontent.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dcache%3A6ZpktcdKS0kJ%3Awww.rsi.deas.harvard.edu%2Fhandout.doc%2Bhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.rsi.deas.harvard.edu%2Fhandout.doc%26cd%3D1%26hl%3Den%26ct%3Dclnk%26gl%3Dus&rct=j&q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rsi.deas.harvard.edu%2Fhandout.doc&ei=eM9eTLyWCML58Abz7byzDQ&usg=AFQjCNFDePk4TJUp7Sv8KeGlXMzQIEYArw&sig2=WpLK0EBD_odWgNcFL4_Etg&cad=rja http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&v... Keep in mind that this does not mean "it is all in your head"... The problem does cause a physical condition in your body, but the cause of it is psychological.

mmt 16y ago
Of course you should see a doctor to rule out diseases like multiple sclerosis. Autoimmune (e.g. Lupus) diseases are another important set to rule out. The good news is that, though not curable, many of the inflammatory ailments are easily and cheaply treatable. My advice: have your doctor consider the old NSAIDs first.Ketoprofen is my favorite, though Wyeth pulled it off the OTC market[1], so the lowest single-pill dose is pretty high[2]. Among friends and relatives who've tried it, it consistently counters inflammation, even though its pain relief varies down to nothing. Being old, it's cheap, too. [1] shortly after buying the company who marketed it under the brand "Orudis KT". The cynic in me says it's because Advil has a much higher profit margin. [2] 50mg compared to 12.5mg. Sometimes, 12.5mg once a day is all I've needed. Especially with the recent concerns over the safety of NSAIDs, needlessly quadrupling the dose seems foolish, so I hack the dosages. I could probably get a compounding pharmacy to do this for me, but that would eliminate the "cheap" advantage.

silentbicycle 16y ago

It sounds like a lot of these are symptoms of the real problem: People are so hell-bent on hyper-focusing for long hacking marathons that they ignore warning signs and neglect their bodies. Also: I did Aikido for a couple years, too, and know exactly which wrist stretches he means. They're great pre-typing stretches.

Enlightenment 16y ago

They sell these things at the store called vitamins. If you don't drink milk, then you should be taking vitamin D and vitamins too.

Enlightenment 16y ago

They sell these things at the store called vitamins. If you don't drink milk, then you should be taking vitamin D and vitamins too.

MicahNance 16y ago

Seriously? 65 comments and the top voted is about (off-topic) hygiene? With a community such as this, I expected a lot more advice and personal stories. To be fair, I guess this did get posted early on a Sunday. Many thanks to Zed for bringing it up the topic. I think it is always good for the programming community to hear different views on it. As we rely more and more on computers, mobile devices, etc., we're going to see these sorts of injuries more and more and I'm not sure the medical community knows how to deal with them yet. I read HN sometimes and there are so many people doing full time jobs, then coding at home, then playing guitar on top of that! It is depressing to read because I'm lucky if I can make it through lunch without my arms hurting some days. I don't think people in my camp speak up enough (partly because we are trying to type as little as possible). I haven't played my guitar in years while I try to cope. I've been to some physical therapy, but found that it didn't improve things much short or long term. If you do visit a doctor (which you probably should), just be aware that they may suggest surgery. Personally, I don't think that is the answer to RSI in most cases. I weight lift occasionally but I can't tell whether it is helping or hurting. I've always been curious about yoga, I just need a kick in the pants to get started. So, there's my personal story. As far as advice, I don't have much since I haven't actually found something that works well for me. I read "It's NOT Carpal Tunnel Syndrome" which was an short, interesting read, but ultimately didn't help me with my particular problem. It does have good general advice, a section with stretching exercises and nerve glides, etc.

zedshaw 16y ago
Hey, just from what you're saying it sounds like your wrists have gone a little too far. If you have constant pain in your hands from typing, and you can't play guitar, and this fact is consuming your life, then you should do something about it. I don't know if that's surgery, but you should at least talk to a specialist about your pain (not a general practitioner), and see what they say. Also try to take a week or more off and not touch a keyboard or guitar. If that helps then it may just be you need to change how you do things with your hands.
- MicahNance 16y ago
  It isn't my wrists; it is my forearms. From my reading and (ortho) doc visits, Radial Tunnel Syndrome is the closest diagnosis to what I experience. It could just be tendinitis, though. I agree I need a week off, but from my past experience I know a week isn't enough. I'm going to try and take several weeks off later this year. Maybe my writeup sounded worse than it is. It isn't totally consuming my life, but it has been worsening again lately so the topic has been on my mind. I am not always in pain. I go through periods (days-weeks) of relative normalcy, but other periods where the pain is worse. I haven't played guitar because I try not to stress my arms while I'm home. I try to stay off the computer at home too, but you see how that is working out... I need some mental fortitude/willpower, too. What do you mean by "change how you do things with your hands"? I've tried a few different chairs, chair/desk heights, keyboards, and mice. My latest is putting my MS Natural 4000 in my lap to type. I think that is an alright position for my hands, but I wish its keys had a little less resistance than they do.

deleted 16y ago

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alexyim 16y ago

Another useful thing is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myofascial_release http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myofascial_release. Go pick up the hardest foam roller you can handle and start rolling: http://www.amazon.com/Foam-Roller-6-x-36/dp/B000Y4W9VA/ http://www.amazon.com/Foam-Roller-6-x-36/dp/B000Y4W9VA/ It has done wonders for my body.

dylanz 16y ago

1. RSI: Take a week off, then, switch to Dvorak (maybe get a Kinesis keyboard if that helps you as well). 2. Back: Standing desk w/ nice architects chair. 3. Eyes: Get a Kindle and read PDF's/etc on it instead of computer. My quick $0.02 on the problems I've helped resolve from your list Zed. The other problems, I have yet to tackle, but, I probably should sooner than later! Great detailed post.

sushi 16y ago

Most of the problems mentioned won't even happen in the first place if one takes regular breaks. I recommend WorkRave for this: http://www.workrave.org/ http://www.workrave.org/

Tichy 16y ago
Or follow my twitter bot: http://twitter.com/officeworkout http://twitter.com/officeworkout (strictly non-scientific)
silentbicycle 16y ago
Or xwrits (http://www.lcdf.org/xwrits/ http://www.lcdf.org/xwrits/), on Unix.

msluyter 16y ago

I disagree with his advice on vitamin D, especially for those over 40 who have lost most of their ability to synthesize it from sunlight. See: http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/getting-vitamin-d-right.html http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/getting-vitamin-d-...

mathgladiator 16y ago

On Vitamin D, you need to be careful because it can also mess up your calcium levels. If you calcium levels change, then it can affect your magnesium levels. If your magnesium levels drop, then your muscles will hurt hard core. If you ignore the pain (and deal with it like a real man), then you will die.

earl 16y ago

Zed, you forgot kidney stones. One of the consequences of too much caffeine is it's easy to be dehydrated, which puts you at risk of kidney stones. Which essentially means you get the dubious pleasure of pissing razor sharp calcium rocks out your urethra. It hasn't happened to me, but it has happened to friends; based on their experiences, I wouldn't recommend it.

c1sc0 16y ago
Happened to my father & it was the most agonizing experience I have seen him go through. Kidney stones cripple you with pain, you can't sit, you can't lie down. It rips basic comfort out of your life for weeks on end.

grigory 16y ago

Something that worked really well for me is having several hobbies outside of work. It prevents me from just coding for 12 hours a day, and makes my life so much more enjoyable. A really big one for me is mountain biking. I always found it to be a great escape from whatever I had going on - school, work, relationships - you can really forget about all of that stuff on trails. Mountain biking at times feels more like an addiction, to be honest. Indeed, I own a shirt that reads "Mountain biking is as addictive as crack, but twice as expensive". I start feeling bad about myself and getting a bit anxious if I don't go out on trails for several days in a row. It sure feels great afterwards though - really push yourself, have fun, get that dose of adrenalin and be physically exhausted in the end. I always solve my toughest problems after "hardcore" biking sessions :-) Having talked to some hospital staff during my several biking-related emergency room visits, I can tell you that some forms of it (downhill-type stuff) are very hard on your joints, so don't over do it. If you're really into downhill racing and freeride, mix in several good XC sessions for cross-training. You'll be stronger and healthier. P.S.: another thing that really helps is having an active S.O., someone who'll drag you out of your work-mode and take you hiking several times a week, and who will want social interactions outside of "reading HN".

sprout 16y ago
I'm addicted to Swing Dancing.

wvl 16y ago

When you sit all day with your hands on a keyboard, your shoulders are constantly in internal rotation. Try this quick test: Hold a couple pens loosely in your hands with the points facing out, and stand naturally with your arms at your sides. Where are pens pointed? If they are pointed forward, then you've got excellent posture. If they are pointed diagonally inwards, you have slight internal rotation. If they are pointed almost straight inwards, then that internal rotation is severe. The point of this is that pushups, and everyone's favourite lift, the bench press, promote more internal rotation. Most office people would be far better served performing more pulling exercises than push. So deadlifts, rows, pull downs, pull ups, etc.

steve19 16y ago

CS departments should make all students attend a short course covering all of Zed's topics and the personal hygiene and mental health issues mentioned in this thread.

shoover 16y ago
Or better yet companies that expect people to sit at computers for 40-60-80 hours should. One good thing about meetings: sitting in them is easier on your hands, if it doesn't drive you crazy...

Qz 16y ago

While we're on the topic of computer use issues, thought I'd share something I discovered for mouse use. I realize lots of us like to go solo keyboard, but for when you have to use a mouse, try this: Put the mouse (m] sideways pointed left at the bottom left side of your keyboard: [Keyboard] (m] Rest your elbow on the desk, so your arm is parallel to the keyboard. I've been doing this for a few months now, and it's been a huge improvement. It might take a while to get used to the mouse being perpendicular to the pointer orientation on screen, but maybe not (didn't for me). The position is somewhat adapted from the tai chi standing practice posture.

sprout 16y ago
I do this when I'm forced to work at a desk. Though presently I'm sitting- well, reclining across two chairs, my keyboard in my lap. My mouse is sitting on a table to my right, so I actually raise my arm so it's at a 90 degree angle from my body to use the mouse. That works pretty well (incidentally, I'm reclining to spare my knees - keeping them bent for hours at a time is not a good thing, better to leave them straight. )
Encosia 16y ago
I can confirm that this setup has legs, long-term. I've been using my mice that way for over a decade now, after accidentally stumbling onto it. A good cordless mouse makes this configuration much more convenient (I'm still using an aging Logitech G7, for example). Curious, do you write left handed? I do, and so does the only other person I know of that uses this setup.
- Qz 16y ago
  Actually no, I'm right-handed. I don't even remember how I ended up with the setup... maybe my mouse just gradually moved leftwards across the desk in search of better comfort!

stretchwithme 16y ago

This article mentions several problems caused by stiff muscles and strategies for coping and preventing them. It may be useful to understand the mechanisms that cause and perpetuate this problem. There's the muscle sheaths that have stiffened by the lack of use of the full range of motion and the constant deposition of collagen, which literally glues the sheath to itself. This tight sheath can impair blood flow to a muscle, especially when the muscle is contracted for a long time. The contracting muscle presses out against a tight sheath. Blood takes the path of least resistance. That lack of healthy blood flow can cause the sarcomeres, the contractile unit of muscle, to get stuck in their contracted position. This is how a muscle gets tight and actually shorter. When a muscle gets very stiff, a trigger point can develop. A trigger point is just an area where many sarcomeres are tight. We certainly notice trigger points, but the muscle gradually hardens for a while before a trigger point develops. The hard muscles are shorter and thicker and this makes manipulating the sheath to break up the collagen much harder. But if the muscle is softened first, it can be done. Massage is how you soften the muscle and get the sarcomeres in it functioning again. Massage pushes depleted blood out and then new blood is pulled in from the capillaries. But there's still one other factor and that is the way muscles communicate with each other to accomplish work. When one muscle is engaged, other muscles receive nerve signals to help. And if there is a trigger point in one muscle, other muscles are engaged via the nerves. So you may have a tense muscles but it may be another muscle that is the root cause. All of the muscles need to considered and massaged in a systematic way.

AgentConundrum 16y ago
All of the muscles need to considered and massaged in a systematic way. I wish I had realized this years ago. I developed RSI symptoms, or at least they became severe enough that I took note of them, about two months ago. I did a lot of research after that and ended up booking my first ever massage. When the therapist started working on my forearms, she explained that I was very tight, and she wasn't surprised it was causing me pain. Oddly, my left arm ended up being the worse off of the two. After the massage, I felt great and could type relatively normally again without pain. She also told me that my neck muscles were essentially made of stone, and asked me if I regularly got headaches (I did). I guess what I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't underestimate the value of regular massages. It would probably cost around $1k/year to go once a month, but I think it's worth it to keep yourself at the top of your game. Therapeutic massage is often used to manage chronic pain, so I see no reason why it couldn't also be used to prevent it (or cure it if you're in the early stages).

deleted 16y ago

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ruang 16y ago

Semi-fast once a week. Much easier than trying to calculate your calorie count each and every meal. I skip dinner and breakfast the next morning, so I'm without food for 24 hours.

stretchwithme 16y ago

Here's an easy way to release some muscular stiffness if you're having lower back pain while sitting. Stand up and feel your lower back and whether you can massage it easily. With your arms back at your sides, bend both legs just 1/4 of the way down. Do this 3 to 5 times. Now stretch the front of each thigh by holding the foot to your butt. Don't use a lot of effort to do this. Just hold in place for 5 seconds or until it completely stretches. Now feel your lower back again and see if you can massage it. If its much easier to massage now, the source of your pain is your tight thighs. But now you have a way to cope with and reduce the consequences of this tightness.

xom 16y ago

What's a door jam?

PidGin128 16y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Door_jamb&oldid=376045823&printable=yes http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Door_jamb&oldi... Depending on the context that inspired you to ask, the literal explanation may not help.

c00p3r 16y ago

Run, Forrest! Run!