7 ms·

Investor Shervin Pishevar Accused of Sexual Misconduct by Multiple Women

85 points by KKKKkkkk1 9y ago

crankylinuxuser 9y ago
So, how much more "Accusations" will arise, that are acted upon with firings, and no criminal anything results? I'm getting rather fed up with "Sexual * accusation leads to firing" again and again and again. How about proof/courtcase/dismissal if guilty? What about the rights of the accused, or are we going to stand for "Social Media Courtroom" slamming out guilty verdicts? Edit: I'm trying to open up a dialog about the rights of accusers AND accused. The ramifications here are "Loss of income, loss of house, approaching poverty and destitution". The current trend is using "Virtual Mob Justice" - whom here agrees with this approach? I sure don't. I've seen what Mobs will get you, and it ain't pretty.
- zymhan 9y ago
  Nearly all of the people tossed out of their jobs for these claims fessed up to being creeps. A company doesn't need to win a court case to fire someone. You're not entitled to a job. This is America. No one is locking these people up without a trial. However, being shunned by most of society does not require a court case.
  - crankylinuxuser 9y ago
    That right there is what's wrong with US. Someone makes a claim, another person loses their job. It may be true, or not. No recourse. Start the spiral of poverty, destitution, and homelessness. And they had better hope they get off that spiral before too long. > However, being shunned by most of society does not require a court case. It IS a problem when being "shunned by society" entails in living under a bridge or in a tent city.
    - zimablue 9y ago
      Counterpoint in the UK, making defamatory statements makes you personally liable and in court the burden of proof is on you, you need to prove your claims. In the US, you'd have to prove that they are lying which is obviously impossible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_defamation_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_defamation_law It's hard to think of a way to have a situation where both of: Women are safe from harassment in private and Men are safe from the possibility of being destroyed by three women who don't like them Are true
      - adventured 9y ago
        > In the US, you'd have to prove that they are lying which is obviously impossible. It doesn't sound like you understand US law very well. Proving that someone is lying is not impossible. Holding an entity liable for defamation is also not impossible accordingly. See: the recent Virginia case, which Rolling Stone magazine lost by jury verdict. [1] You can sue someone in the US for defamation at any time you like. During the process, you can show the lack of evidence on the other side, and you can show the evidence to support your case. In a culture that strongly favors free speech, there should be a high burden to criminalization of opinion. If someone claims you sexually assaulted them on June 24th at 8pm, at Some Restaurant - and you can demonstrate you were never there, you're very likely to win that in court. In the US, the consequences of losing such a defamation case, are typically very punishing, which helps to limit any kind of actual free-for-all of false accusations. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/05/business/media/rolling-stone-rape-story-case-guilty.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/05/business/media/rolling-st...
    - whafro 9y ago
      That's not what's typically been happening. In most cases, at least when considering the higher-profile ones of the last few weeks, stories have been about multiple occurrences. The reporting typically identifies a pattern of behavior from multiple sources who were confirmed to have told friends, family, or colleagues at the time of the incident. If a single, unverifiable account was thought to be sufficient, I'd be with you. But when you have multiple occurrences and patterns, you can argue that it's clear that the person is creating a toxic work environment and can be dealt with more swiftly than the legal process.
  - ams6110 9y ago
    > Nearly all of the people tossed out of their jobs for these claims fessed up to being creeps. I agree, as far as we know this is what has been happening. An exception being Roy Moore, as far as I know he has stridently denied the accusations made against him. I do think GP has identified a slippery slope. Not everyone is honorable and some people will start to get the idea that they can take down a boss they don't like by simply leveling a sexual assault charge. If in today's climate there is a presumption of guilt rather than innocence, or even an attitude "easier to fire him than deal with an investigation" then pray you're never on the wrong side of that scenario.
    - tomp 9y ago
      I expect many powerful men to adopt Mike Pence's philosophy - never being alone with a woman unless it's his wife - to manage the risk of (potentially fake) accusations.
      - pjc50 9y ago
        As various people have pointed out on twitter, that way reconstructs the "boy's club"; it becomes impossible for women to access the necessary social networks to climb in some careers if they can't have meetings that men can.
      - crankylinuxuser 9y ago
        Well, yeah. Hell, and there a ton of craziness that goes on in the dating scene. If I was still dating, I'd record with my phone, to prove "No, (s)he did consent. Here's the proof." The opposite of this, is fighting off a potential rape allegation. That scares the living fuck out of me, since a buddy had that happen. But maybe there's a case for a device that records, in a sealed storage. Think of it as insurance on claims of wrongdoing. I've also been sexually harassed by a manager (I'm a guy, manager was a woman). Worked at a subway. She grabbed my ass deep enough she fondled my testicles. Turns out the district manager came in the back door. Fired her on the spot. Makes me a weird exception, in that it was female doing to male subordinate, and it was solved.
    - matt4077 9y ago
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  In the US, the accused have very few rights to continued employment unless they are unionized, or part of the permanent civil service, or have an exceptional personal contract providing such rights. That's what “at will employment” means.
- pjc50 9y ago
  Breaches of an employer's code of conduct are not something that get assessed in court. As to why this stuff doesn't get dealt with in public? "They all asked not to be identified, citing fears over the investor’s history of filing lawsuits and concerns that he could wield his influence in the tech industry to ruin their careers. Earlier this year, Pishevar got a U.K. court to prohibit a local newspaper from reporting on his arrest following a rape allegation against him. London police investigated and didn’t charge him."
- tashoecraft 9y ago
  What rights? This isn't criminal charges (usually). This is multiple people accusing him, some of those aren't even victims. A company doesn't need to wait for criminal charges. You have no right to be hired.
- acdha 9y ago
  You're confusing separate processes with very different difficulty levels. A criminal case requires a high standard of evidence and it's likely that it wouldn't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt (which is generally considered a feature given the dangers of false imprisonment). What you're talking about is more in the realms of civil cases and business cases, where the burden of proof is smaller. In this case, if he felt that this was untrue he could sue under the existing libel laws. The reason that doesn't happen in most of these cases is that there actually is a fair amount of proof but it just hadn't been acted on and the person involved doesn't want to actually drag that evidence into the public scrutiny of a trial.
- matt4077 9y ago
  I hope we'll see many more victims come forward, until such time that people people like you no longer use scare-quotes around the word "accusations". That would be a leap forward. For justice, for the victims, and for grammar (these are real accusations–the doubt you're trying to emphasise is already built-in). Most of the accusations we've recently heard of also speak of actions that aren't crimes. Criminal law allows you to give as many sex toys to your interns as you want. Employment law, and common decency, are something different. They also don't require the standard of proof you're demanding.
- jfk13 9y ago
  I don't doubt for a moment that there are lots of legitimate complaints, and people (especially the rich/powerful) who have acted with impunity for years and fully deserve to be held to account. However, the current culture of insta-trial by social and/or mass media, and the assumption of guilt on the basis of unproven allegations, troubles me greatly. Anyone remember the Salem witch trials? Due process, standards of evidence, and so on were invented for some good reasons, and on this particular topic we seem to be prepared to ignore all that. Sadly, at the moment I don't see how we're going to restore some kind of balance between the rights of the accuser and the accused.
  - crankylinuxuser 9y ago
    > I don't doubt for a moment that there are lots of legitimate complaints, and people (especially the rich/powerful) who have acted with impunity for years and fully deserve to be held to account. Absolutely. And some of the evidence proving it that Ive seen has been damning. I don't doubt that powerful people get away with sexual assault. This quote comes to mind: "And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything ... Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything." ~Donald J Trump. > However, the current culture of insta-trial by social and/or mass media, and the assumption of guilt on the basis of unproven allegations, troubles me greatly. Anyone remember the Salem witch trials? I look at "Social Media" as a form of a lynch mob. It's extrajudicial, and amounts to end the livelihood of a person. If they did something wrong, sure, nail their ass to a wall. But I'm done with "Twitter Justice", "Facebook Social-Death Squads" and the like. Destroying someone's ability to survive is even more cruel than throwing them in a jail cell where they are provided for. > Due process, standards of evidence, and so on were invented for some good reasons, and on this particular topic we seem to be prepared to ignore all that. Sadly, at the moment I don't see how we're going to restore some kind of balance between the rights of the accuser and the accused. Look at the responses I've received thus far. They defend companies doing whatever they want. That's what we're up against. Doesn't matter if it's your livelihood at stake. Just hope $you aren't the next 15 minute subject of the "Internet Death Squad".
    - dominotw 9y ago
      > powerful people get away with sexual assault. > they let you do it. How is it assault if the other party is onboard ?
- Fnoord 9y ago
  Accusations aren't always true. Here's a news item where an organisation out to defame 'targets' got caught when they were trying to use a news platform to spread their fake news: "A woman approached The Post with dramatic — and false — tale about Roy Moore. She appears to be part of undercover sting operation." [1] I suppose if the accusation is untrue they can sue the company for being unfairly fired due to untrue rumours. For those who are self-employed that's not gonna help though. As a society we should be wary for a shift if burden of proof but that goes for all controversial subjects including terrorism, nazism, paedophilia, and sexual abuse. Journalists being able to put time and effort into research is an important tool and pillar for that goal. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/a-woman-approached-the-post-with-dramatic--and-false--tale-about-roy-moore-sje-appears-to-be-part-of-undercover-sting-operation/2017/11/27/0c2e335a-cfb6-11e7-9d3a-bcbe2af58c3a_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/a-woman-approa...
- TallGuyShort 9y ago
  This is probably a good day to have this discussion actually. In San Francisco an undocumented immigrant admits that he fired in illegal weapon that results in the death of an innocent woman, but due to technicalities apparently supported by evidence I'm not familiar with, he is acquitted of the more serious charges and will be deported for the 5th or 6th time. Republicans are angry, and would rather a situation in which he gets some serious punishment. There are good reasons why he can't be tried again for the same incident with different charges and why they can't just charge him with conflicting accusations and let the subsequent investigation and trial determine which ones stick. Democrats have generally disagreed, largely because he's been picked up as an argument for stronger immigration laws and enforcement And yet there's also a similar movement among liberal circles towards ruining people's lives because of accusations that have not been proved until rules of law because they're obviously scum, just like Republicans think this guy is. In general we seem to have abandoned the rule of law everywhere but in most actual courts of law because of people we want to villify. And they're often actually terrible people, but we're on a slippery slope that we can't see because all the rhetoric is playing on people's emotions.
  - pjc50 9y ago
    The court of public opinion is usually a last resort. Generally the accusers don't want to go public - after all, then their name is attached to the thing forever too. And they get a lot of abuse as a result too. If you don't want this stuff dealt with in public, the procedures for dealing with it in private have to work. And hitherto they generally haven't.
    - TallGuyShort 9y ago
      Well unfortunately the court of public opinion is pushing actual legal systems in directions that I think a lot of people are unhappy with too. I think it's the court of public opinion that we need to fix because of the impact it has elsewhere. I'm not generally a fan of Jeremy Clarkson's politics, but I think he makes a good point that we often think many of the people around us in public are morons but that being judged by a jury of those morons is a good idea, as opposed to being judged by the mature, experienced and very well-educated judge. Now obviously I'm not against juries and I'm not for authoritarian centralized judicial systems, but generally both conservatives and liberals seem increasingly willingly to trash people's reputations or call for harsh punishments because of an accusation and they only care for a methodical process of reviewing evidence and testimony and maintaining innocence until proof of guilt if they like the person. I mean police shootings are another issue like this - listen to the public discourse and virtually everyone has made up their mind about what should happen before any video is releases, and when video is released everyone sticks to the decision they already made before seeing it. Maybe we never had it, but most people seem to have lost the ability to withhold mental judgment until seeing it, and instead of people who think some shootings were understandable and others were abuses of authority, you have a lot of people who think they're virtually all one or the other.
- greedo 9y ago
  The majority of creeps who've been outed recently have admitted wrongdoing (post outing of course). This is largely to mitigate the damage and diminish the outrage; hoping that something or someone steals the spotlight. And some of the more egregious creeps completely deny despite overwhelming evidence and claims. This is also to be expected since they have nothing to lose. The third response is to deny a limited claim. Someone like Jeremy Piven comes to mind. He steadfastly denies the charge against him. I think it's reasonable to assume that some of the charges are fraudulent; people are human and prone to the human condition. But when there's a preponderance of evidence, it's pretty easy to tell who's being disingenuous.
- matwood 9y ago
  First, not every accusation brought up is necessarily criminal, but could open the company to civil liability or just point out people the company considers toxic. Second, I don't think anyone has been fired off of a single non-criminal accusation. The ones I have seen all have multiple accusers and corroboration. As an aside, I am a bit concerned how many of the accusations are being lumped together. A boss hitting on a subordinate is very different than a forcible rape. Both are wrong and should be addressed, but grouping them together lessens the seriousness of the later IMO.
  - amyjess 9y ago
    > Second, I don't think anyone has been fired off of a single non-criminal accusation. Yes. Look at how the accusation against George Takei never took off. It was one person. With everyone else (e.g. Harvey Weinstein, Kevin Spacey, Louis C.K., Eddie Berganza, John Lasseter), it was well-known in certain circles that the person was a creep, and there were multiple independent accusations. Takei, on the other hand, had a reputation for being an absolute gentleman in a time when the gay scene was notoriously grabby.
myf01d 9y ago
All the men accused of sexual misconduct share the same trait: they are all rich!
- zymhan 9y ago
  Well that's not true, it's just the men you hear about in the news. It's not a national story to learn that a middle manager at a department store harassed employees for years. It's depressing for sure, but not exactly news.
- merraksh 9y ago
  The poor have less chance of being famous, and hence of being in the spotlight for such accusations.
  - eropple 9y ago
    In the spheres being reported on, yes. On the other hand, something I find interesting is that there are plenty of nontrivial YouTube creators with large followings, and more than one of them has been outed as a scumbag (which was low-key happening before #MeToo, in a way that actually-powerful people seemed immune).
- matdehaast 9y ago
  I would hazard a guess it is only the ones you hear of. The #MeToo campaign showed that sexual harassment, assault and misconduct affects all demographics.
- saas_co_de 9y ago
  It is only "newsworthy" if the person has a recognizable name, which generally means they are upper income. The vast majority of sexual misconduct reports made to HR will never be reported in the media.
- abiox 9y ago
  > All the men really, all of them? or just ones you've seen on [WhateverNewsSite].com? i suspect a situation at, say, a random local hardware store is unlikely to make major news outlets.
zymhan 9y ago
I'm glad people are coming forward about this. Predatory men contribute to the culture of toxicity and hostility towards women in tech, and we need to toss the bums out of our industry.
- geodel 9y ago
  > and we need to toss the bums out of our industry. So in other industries it should be fine? If not, we should be filling prisons with these people.
  - crsmithdev 9y ago
    > So in other industries it should be fine? What an odd thing to take away from that statement.
- mirimir 9y ago
  I'm glad too. Female friends have shared disturbing stories about advances by professors, supervisors, buyers, and others with influence over their lives. I mean, "sexretary" was a cliche, a few decades ago. For the most part, they were testing for potential victims. I'm guessing that this could become a substantial purge.
  - indubitable 9y ago
    The interesting thing is that this is also going to change the status quo, in perhaps unexpected ways. There's no doubt the vast majority of these claims are true, yet there's also no doubt that this is really ratcheting up the concern of many employers about the possibilities when being alone with female employees. And then social events, most of which involve alcohol, are going to ramp that concern up to 11. It's possible that this is already happening to some degree. One of Ellen Pao's complaints against Kleiner Perkins is that females were not invited to some social outings with the other partners/execs. As this becomes a more serious issue, and like you - I am expecting an ongoing purge, the status quo is going to be shaken in ways other than taking out the trash.
tabeth 9y ago
I feel that the quantity of these reports has been increasing since the whole Weinstein incident. I wonder if it is because there's more comfort in finally sharing or because reporters are looking for scoops more. Either way, it's good I think.
- saas_co_de 9y ago
  It is being reported now when it wasn't before. Rose McGowan was publicly accusing Weinstein (not by name but it was known) of rape for a long time before the media would report it. There have also been several high profile media people who have been fired for sexual misconduct so that has probably made the upper level management in the media afraid to continue covering up these stories.
- pjc50 9y ago
  And inevitably it's being co-opted into the media wars. https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/a-woman-approached-the-post-with-dramatic--and-false--tale-about-roy-moore-sje-appears-to-be-part-of-undercover-sting-operation/2017/11/27/0c2e335a-cfb6-11e7-9d3a-bcbe2af58c3a_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/a-woman-approa...
  - maxerickson 9y ago
    That's a very generous description of the dumbassery perpetrated by Project Veritas there.
JoeAltmaier 9y ago
This is all well and good, high-profile folks getting repercussions for their abusive behavior. But how does this help the folks down behind the counter at KFC, or on the factory floor, or at the dry-cleaners? I hope some cultural change comes of all this, else its just more celebrity gossip.
- zymhan 9y ago
  If the top people at a company can be publicly named and shamed, then that hopefully conveys the idea that this behavior won't be tolerated on any level.
  - matte_black 9y ago
    It could also backfire and show that the only people worth reporting on are those at the top, since that’s all we hear about.
- epmaybe 9y ago
  This is a really astute observation. My only thought is that by showing that powerful people aren't impervious, there's inspiration and motivation for that harassed employee to get up and do something about it.
- pjc50 9y ago
  It helps when the folks down behind the counter at KFC, or on the factory floor, or at the dry-cleaners get groped by their boss and want to report him to his boss.
dominotw 9y ago
Why can't we put these people behind bars. What is going on, is this not really a crime in societies eyes.
- zymhan 9y ago
  People coming forward is step one. Those people feeling like they can go through with pressing charges and going to court is step two.
- Cthulhu_ 9y ago
  What laws did he break, what evidence is there, where's the police reports?
- ct0 9y ago
  False reports are a real thing, and very common unfortunately.
  - pwinnski 9y ago
    Not very common at all, in fact. And almost certainly irrelevant to the story at hand. https://qz.com/980766/the-truth-about-false-rape-accusations/ https://qz.com/980766/the-truth-about-false-rape-accusations...
    - wehadfun 9y ago
      Impossible to know. I don't care what qz.com claims. Usually this stuff is done discretely so only 2 people really know what happened. There is also the fuzzy line between trying to laid and outright harassment.
      - abiox 9y ago
        > There is also the fuzzy line between there isn't necessarily a line. if you keep "trying to get laid" after being told someone wasn't interested, you're doing both.
junkscience2017 9y ago
If you are a wealthy coastal elite you can just apologize for sexual misconduct and seek "therapy" at a luxury spa. Every morning you can enjoy shade-grown coffee and cage-free eggs from a small family-owned farm in Mendocino county...afterwards you can attend a short session with a therapist before attending yoga. why downvote? This is literally a day planner for Kevin Spacey right now. See Harvey Weinstein being charged with rape? He will get off (tee hee) with a short statement of regret. This is your world, you can't downvote it away!
- matt4077 9y ago
  If your are "a wealthy coastal elite" you can already do all of those things, presumably. Since these people aren't living the liberal dream life of your little fantasy, they are presumably losing something they greatly desire when ousted from their positions of power. At the very least, they lose the opportunity to use their power to continue their victimisation of others.
- sctb 9y ago
  Could you please not violate the guidelines? You've been doing this a lot. It asks us to comment substantively and to not complain about downvotes. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
lukateake 9y ago
Why omit "Uber" from the title on HN?
- saas_co_de 9y ago
  As much as I enjoy piling on Uber, this seems to have nothing to do with them, and is just there for clickbait.
  - lukateake 9y ago
    HN policy has always been to leave the title intact. And I, for one, find his affiliation with Uber to be of particular interest given Susan Fowler's story.
    - ams6110 9y ago
      Not true. It is permitted to neutralize a clickbait title if the story is otherwise worthy.
      - lukateake 9y ago
        Without looking at Crunchbase, please name one other investment of Shervin Pishevar that has the cultural reach of Uber. I suspect a randomly selected person would not be able to do so. And Uber has a well documented history of hostile or discriminatory behavior that hews close to the article's topic.
        ams6110 9y ago
        I, like most people, didn't even recognize the name Shervin Pishevar. Of course I do recognize Uber, so putting Uber in the title when the story is not about Uber is clickbait.
        Fnoord 9y ago
        Keeping or removing Uber is a complex decision: He's a little bit more than merely an Uber investor. Quoting: "He is a strategic advisor to Uber, and served as a board advisor to the company from 2011–2015." [1] He also invested in many more companies than merely Uber. [1] Therefore a case can be made for both keeping Uber as well as removing Uber from the title. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shervin_Pishevar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shervin_Pishevar
bitsyblits 9y ago
A new sexual-harassment-proof venture fund is what's needed, like these guys https://medium.com/@abdulbinatsef/eunuchs-vc-launches-with-new-400m-fund-74013330cd35 https://medium.com/@abdulbinatsef/eunuchs-vc-launches-with-n...
epx 9y ago
Jesus, what's wrong with these men?!
- krapp 9y ago
  Society often encourages and rewards sexual aggression and dominance in successful men - such behavior is symbolic of their status and virility, and has been since the days when sultans collected women in harems. Society is just an abstraction of primate hierarchies built on violence and sex with a thin veneer of civility applied, not that that excuses anything. But the point is, this behavior isn't unusual. It's valid to ask what's wrong with these men, but you should also ask what's wrong with cultures which reinforce predatory masculinity and allow it to propagate.
  - epx 9y ago
    I mean, being rich and powerful already makes a whole lot easier for a man to conquest women (and vice-versa), I don't like it but that's the way it is - just riding a better car creates a lot of opportunities like I have myself experimented - so why bother forcing your way?
    - indubitable 9y ago
      I would imagine the situation for many of these people is not as great as you're framing it. For the most part the accused have been unusually physically unattractive and to say their personalities don't make up for it would be quite the understatement. So they have a situation where if somebody is interested in them it's almost certainly because they're interested in their money. And if they hide their wealth from people - then nobody would be any more interested in them than your average aging unattractive individual. So sure they can get laid by prostitutes and gold diggers, but that in many ways has to be incredibly emasculating. Imagine how awful it must be to know that if somebody shows interest in you, that they're probably lying to you and just after your money. The wife of Weinstein was a head and shoulders commercial girl. George Clooney's wife is a high profile lawyer whose clients include Julian Assange, the former PM of Ukraine, etc. Anecdotal, but there are plenty of very attractive and charismatic wealthy individuals. Yet, at least for now, it seems like they're not the ones engaged in this behavior. And there I would imagine it's because your stereotyping holds much more true.
cantrip 9y ago
It's insane that this article outs one of the alleged victims based on other's account of what happened even though she herself declined to comment. Women should be given the freedom to disclose these things on their own terms and this has been taken away from her.
- craftyguy 9y ago
  But it's super trendy to report on sexual misconduct these days, and no news outlet is going to sacrifice clicks for victim freedoms. /s
  - cantrip 9y ago
    It's not trendy it's a much needed discussion that is a long time overdue. Don't diminish it by labeling it as trendy.
    - dominotw 9y ago
      much needed thing can be trendy.
      - cantrip 9y ago
        Don't diminish it by labeling it trendy.
- dawhizkid 9y ago
  one of my first thoughts reading this article - aren't there journalistic standards around things like this?
  - cantrip 9y ago
    Yeah I really don't get it. It's not like the accusations from the multiple women who would speak on the record weren't damning enough. But the author decided to open the article with secondhand accounts of abuse towards a woman who did not want to speak about it. It's very poor journalism.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
dboreham 9y ago
Wondering how long before we don't have enough douchebags left to run the place.
- QAPereo 9y ago
  Well never run out, they’ll just select for new cryptic colorations and evasive behaviors. Fools and assholes are humanity’s greatest resources.
- cantrip 9y ago
  A reverse Atlas Shrugged, where society flourishes and people are able to fulfill their full potential once all the incredibly corrupt people disappear from the system.
kolbe 9y ago
Sexuality has value. Our system will continue to be in a chaotic disequilibrium until we can find a way to manage the fact that sexuality has as much value as money and power, and that it is impossible to separate it from business. But where we're at now, sexuality is just feared by timid people, and exploited by scumbags.

85 points by KKKKkkkk1 9y ago

So, how much more "Accusations" will arise, that are acted upon with firings, and no criminal anything results? I'm getting rather fed up with "Sexual * accusation leads to firing" again and again and again. How about proof/courtcase/dismissal if guilty? What about the rights of the accused, or are we going to stand for "Social Media Courtroom" slamming out guilty verdicts? Edit: I'm trying to open up a dialog about the rights of accusers AND accused. The ramifications here are "Loss of income, loss of house, approaching poverty and destitution". The current trend is using "Virtual Mob Justice" - whom here agrees with this approach? I sure don't. I've seen what Mobs will get you, and it ain't pretty.

zymhan 9y ago
Nearly all of the people tossed out of their jobs for these claims fessed up to being creeps. A company doesn't need to win a court case to fire someone. You're not entitled to a job. This is America. No one is locking these people up without a trial. However, being shunned by most of society does not require a court case.
- crankylinuxuser 9y ago
  That right there is what's wrong with US. Someone makes a claim, another person loses their job. It may be true, or not. No recourse. Start the spiral of poverty, destitution, and homelessness. And they had better hope they get off that spiral before too long. > However, being shunned by most of society does not require a court case. It IS a problem when being "shunned by society" entails in living under a bridge or in a tent city.
  - zimablue 9y ago
    Counterpoint in the UK, making defamatory statements makes you personally liable and in court the burden of proof is on you, you need to prove your claims. In the US, you'd have to prove that they are lying which is obviously impossible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_defamation_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_defamation_law It's hard to think of a way to have a situation where both of: Women are safe from harassment in private and Men are safe from the possibility of being destroyed by three women who don't like them Are true
    - adventured 9y ago
      > In the US, you'd have to prove that they are lying which is obviously impossible. It doesn't sound like you understand US law very well. Proving that someone is lying is not impossible. Holding an entity liable for defamation is also not impossible accordingly. See: the recent Virginia case, which Rolling Stone magazine lost by jury verdict. [1] You can sue someone in the US for defamation at any time you like. During the process, you can show the lack of evidence on the other side, and you can show the evidence to support your case. In a culture that strongly favors free speech, there should be a high burden to criminalization of opinion. If someone claims you sexually assaulted them on June 24th at 8pm, at Some Restaurant - and you can demonstrate you were never there, you're very likely to win that in court. In the US, the consequences of losing such a defamation case, are typically very punishing, which helps to limit any kind of actual free-for-all of false accusations. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/05/business/media/rolling-stone-rape-story-case-guilty.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/05/business/media/rolling-st...
  - whafro 9y ago
    That's not what's typically been happening. In most cases, at least when considering the higher-profile ones of the last few weeks, stories have been about multiple occurrences. The reporting typically identifies a pattern of behavior from multiple sources who were confirmed to have told friends, family, or colleagues at the time of the incident. If a single, unverifiable account was thought to be sufficient, I'd be with you. But when you have multiple occurrences and patterns, you can argue that it's clear that the person is creating a toxic work environment and can be dealt with more swiftly than the legal process.
- ams6110 9y ago
  > Nearly all of the people tossed out of their jobs for these claims fessed up to being creeps. I agree, as far as we know this is what has been happening. An exception being Roy Moore, as far as I know he has stridently denied the accusations made against him. I do think GP has identified a slippery slope. Not everyone is honorable and some people will start to get the idea that they can take down a boss they don't like by simply leveling a sexual assault charge. If in today's climate there is a presumption of guilt rather than innocence, or even an attitude "easier to fire him than deal with an investigation" then pray you're never on the wrong side of that scenario.
  - tomp 9y ago
    I expect many powerful men to adopt Mike Pence's philosophy - never being alone with a woman unless it's his wife - to manage the risk of (potentially fake) accusations.
    - pjc50 9y ago
      As various people have pointed out on twitter, that way reconstructs the "boy's club"; it becomes impossible for women to access the necessary social networks to climb in some careers if they can't have meetings that men can.
    - crankylinuxuser 9y ago
      Well, yeah. Hell, and there a ton of craziness that goes on in the dating scene. If I was still dating, I'd record with my phone, to prove "No, (s)he did consent. Here's the proof." The opposite of this, is fighting off a potential rape allegation. That scares the living fuck out of me, since a buddy had that happen. But maybe there's a case for a device that records, in a sealed storage. Think of it as insurance on claims of wrongdoing. I've also been sexually harassed by a manager (I'm a guy, manager was a woman). Worked at a subway. She grabbed my ass deep enough she fondled my testicles. Turns out the district manager came in the back door. Fired her on the spot. Makes me a weird exception, in that it was female doing to male subordinate, and it was solved.
  - matt4077 9y ago
dragonwriter 9y ago
In the US, the accused have very few rights to continued employment unless they are unionized, or part of the permanent civil service, or have an exceptional personal contract providing such rights. That's what “at will employment” means.
pjc50 9y ago
Breaches of an employer's code of conduct are not something that get assessed in court. As to why this stuff doesn't get dealt with in public? "They all asked not to be identified, citing fears over the investor’s history of filing lawsuits and concerns that he could wield his influence in the tech industry to ruin their careers. Earlier this year, Pishevar got a U.K. court to prohibit a local newspaper from reporting on his arrest following a rape allegation against him. London police investigated and didn’t charge him."
tashoecraft 9y ago
What rights? This isn't criminal charges (usually). This is multiple people accusing him, some of those aren't even victims. A company doesn't need to wait for criminal charges. You have no right to be hired.
acdha 9y ago
You're confusing separate processes with very different difficulty levels. A criminal case requires a high standard of evidence and it's likely that it wouldn't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt (which is generally considered a feature given the dangers of false imprisonment). What you're talking about is more in the realms of civil cases and business cases, where the burden of proof is smaller. In this case, if he felt that this was untrue he could sue under the existing libel laws. The reason that doesn't happen in most of these cases is that there actually is a fair amount of proof but it just hadn't been acted on and the person involved doesn't want to actually drag that evidence into the public scrutiny of a trial.
matt4077 9y ago
I hope we'll see many more victims come forward, until such time that people people like you no longer use scare-quotes around the word "accusations". That would be a leap forward. For justice, for the victims, and for grammar (these are real accusations–the doubt you're trying to emphasise is already built-in). Most of the accusations we've recently heard of also speak of actions that aren't crimes. Criminal law allows you to give as many sex toys to your interns as you want. Employment law, and common decency, are something different. They also don't require the standard of proof you're demanding.
jfk13 9y ago
I don't doubt for a moment that there are lots of legitimate complaints, and people (especially the rich/powerful) who have acted with impunity for years and fully deserve to be held to account. However, the current culture of insta-trial by social and/or mass media, and the assumption of guilt on the basis of unproven allegations, troubles me greatly. Anyone remember the Salem witch trials? Due process, standards of evidence, and so on were invented for some good reasons, and on this particular topic we seem to be prepared to ignore all that. Sadly, at the moment I don't see how we're going to restore some kind of balance between the rights of the accuser and the accused.
- crankylinuxuser 9y ago
  > I don't doubt for a moment that there are lots of legitimate complaints, and people (especially the rich/powerful) who have acted with impunity for years and fully deserve to be held to account. Absolutely. And some of the evidence proving it that Ive seen has been damning. I don't doubt that powerful people get away with sexual assault. This quote comes to mind: "And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything ... Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything." ~Donald J Trump. > However, the current culture of insta-trial by social and/or mass media, and the assumption of guilt on the basis of unproven allegations, troubles me greatly. Anyone remember the Salem witch trials? I look at "Social Media" as a form of a lynch mob. It's extrajudicial, and amounts to end the livelihood of a person. If they did something wrong, sure, nail their ass to a wall. But I'm done with "Twitter Justice", "Facebook Social-Death Squads" and the like. Destroying someone's ability to survive is even more cruel than throwing them in a jail cell where they are provided for. > Due process, standards of evidence, and so on were invented for some good reasons, and on this particular topic we seem to be prepared to ignore all that. Sadly, at the moment I don't see how we're going to restore some kind of balance between the rights of the accuser and the accused. Look at the responses I've received thus far. They defend companies doing whatever they want. That's what we're up against. Doesn't matter if it's your livelihood at stake. Just hope $you aren't the next 15 minute subject of the "Internet Death Squad".
  - dominotw 9y ago
    > powerful people get away with sexual assault. > they let you do it. How is it assault if the other party is onboard ?
Fnoord 9y ago
Accusations aren't always true. Here's a news item where an organisation out to defame 'targets' got caught when they were trying to use a news platform to spread their fake news: "A woman approached The Post with dramatic — and false — tale about Roy Moore. She appears to be part of undercover sting operation." [1] I suppose if the accusation is untrue they can sue the company for being unfairly fired due to untrue rumours. For those who are self-employed that's not gonna help though. As a society we should be wary for a shift if burden of proof but that goes for all controversial subjects including terrorism, nazism, paedophilia, and sexual abuse. Journalists being able to put time and effort into research is an important tool and pillar for that goal. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/a-woman-approached-the-post-with-dramatic--and-false--tale-about-roy-moore-sje-appears-to-be-part-of-undercover-sting-operation/2017/11/27/0c2e335a-cfb6-11e7-9d3a-bcbe2af58c3a_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/a-woman-approa...
TallGuyShort 9y ago
This is probably a good day to have this discussion actually. In San Francisco an undocumented immigrant admits that he fired in illegal weapon that results in the death of an innocent woman, but due to technicalities apparently supported by evidence I'm not familiar with, he is acquitted of the more serious charges and will be deported for the 5th or 6th time. Republicans are angry, and would rather a situation in which he gets some serious punishment. There are good reasons why he can't be tried again for the same incident with different charges and why they can't just charge him with conflicting accusations and let the subsequent investigation and trial determine which ones stick. Democrats have generally disagreed, largely because he's been picked up as an argument for stronger immigration laws and enforcement And yet there's also a similar movement among liberal circles towards ruining people's lives because of accusations that have not been proved until rules of law because they're obviously scum, just like Republicans think this guy is. In general we seem to have abandoned the rule of law everywhere but in most actual courts of law because of people we want to villify. And they're often actually terrible people, but we're on a slippery slope that we can't see because all the rhetoric is playing on people's emotions.
- pjc50 9y ago
  The court of public opinion is usually a last resort. Generally the accusers don't want to go public - after all, then their name is attached to the thing forever too. And they get a lot of abuse as a result too. If you don't want this stuff dealt with in public, the procedures for dealing with it in private have to work. And hitherto they generally haven't.
  - TallGuyShort 9y ago
    Well unfortunately the court of public opinion is pushing actual legal systems in directions that I think a lot of people are unhappy with too. I think it's the court of public opinion that we need to fix because of the impact it has elsewhere. I'm not generally a fan of Jeremy Clarkson's politics, but I think he makes a good point that we often think many of the people around us in public are morons but that being judged by a jury of those morons is a good idea, as opposed to being judged by the mature, experienced and very well-educated judge. Now obviously I'm not against juries and I'm not for authoritarian centralized judicial systems, but generally both conservatives and liberals seem increasingly willingly to trash people's reputations or call for harsh punishments because of an accusation and they only care for a methodical process of reviewing evidence and testimony and maintaining innocence until proof of guilt if they like the person. I mean police shootings are another issue like this - listen to the public discourse and virtually everyone has made up their mind about what should happen before any video is releases, and when video is released everyone sticks to the decision they already made before seeing it. Maybe we never had it, but most people seem to have lost the ability to withhold mental judgment until seeing it, and instead of people who think some shootings were understandable and others were abuses of authority, you have a lot of people who think they're virtually all one or the other.
greedo 9y ago
The majority of creeps who've been outed recently have admitted wrongdoing (post outing of course). This is largely to mitigate the damage and diminish the outrage; hoping that something or someone steals the spotlight. And some of the more egregious creeps completely deny despite overwhelming evidence and claims. This is also to be expected since they have nothing to lose. The third response is to deny a limited claim. Someone like Jeremy Piven comes to mind. He steadfastly denies the charge against him. I think it's reasonable to assume that some of the charges are fraudulent; people are human and prone to the human condition. But when there's a preponderance of evidence, it's pretty easy to tell who's being disingenuous.
matwood 9y ago
First, not every accusation brought up is necessarily criminal, but could open the company to civil liability or just point out people the company considers toxic. Second, I don't think anyone has been fired off of a single non-criminal accusation. The ones I have seen all have multiple accusers and corroboration. As an aside, I am a bit concerned how many of the accusations are being lumped together. A boss hitting on a subordinate is very different than a forcible rape. Both are wrong and should be addressed, but grouping them together lessens the seriousness of the later IMO.
- amyjess 9y ago
  > Second, I don't think anyone has been fired off of a single non-criminal accusation. Yes. Look at how the accusation against George Takei never took off. It was one person. With everyone else (e.g. Harvey Weinstein, Kevin Spacey, Louis C.K., Eddie Berganza, John Lasseter), it was well-known in certain circles that the person was a creep, and there were multiple independent accusations. Takei, on the other hand, had a reputation for being an absolute gentleman in a time when the gay scene was notoriously grabby.

myf01d 9y ago

All the men accused of sexual misconduct share the same trait: they are all rich!

zymhan 9y ago
Well that's not true, it's just the men you hear about in the news. It's not a national story to learn that a middle manager at a department store harassed employees for years. It's depressing for sure, but not exactly news.
merraksh 9y ago
The poor have less chance of being famous, and hence of being in the spotlight for such accusations.
- eropple 9y ago
  In the spheres being reported on, yes. On the other hand, something I find interesting is that there are plenty of nontrivial YouTube creators with large followings, and more than one of them has been outed as a scumbag (which was low-key happening before #MeToo, in a way that actually-powerful people seemed immune).
matdehaast 9y ago
I would hazard a guess it is only the ones you hear of. The #MeToo campaign showed that sexual harassment, assault and misconduct affects all demographics.
saas_co_de 9y ago
It is only "newsworthy" if the person has a recognizable name, which generally means they are upper income. The vast majority of sexual misconduct reports made to HR will never be reported in the media.
abiox 9y ago
> All the men really, all of them? or just ones you've seen on [WhateverNewsSite].com? i suspect a situation at, say, a random local hardware store is unlikely to make major news outlets.

zymhan 9y ago

I'm glad people are coming forward about this. Predatory men contribute to the culture of toxicity and hostility towards women in tech, and we need to toss the bums out of our industry.

geodel 9y ago
> and we need to toss the bums out of our industry. So in other industries it should be fine? If not, we should be filling prisons with these people.
- crsmithdev 9y ago
  > So in other industries it should be fine? What an odd thing to take away from that statement.
mirimir 9y ago
I'm glad too. Female friends have shared disturbing stories about advances by professors, supervisors, buyers, and others with influence over their lives. I mean, "sexretary" was a cliche, a few decades ago. For the most part, they were testing for potential victims. I'm guessing that this could become a substantial purge.
- indubitable 9y ago
  The interesting thing is that this is also going to change the status quo, in perhaps unexpected ways. There's no doubt the vast majority of these claims are true, yet there's also no doubt that this is really ratcheting up the concern of many employers about the possibilities when being alone with female employees. And then social events, most of which involve alcohol, are going to ramp that concern up to 11. It's possible that this is already happening to some degree. One of Ellen Pao's complaints against Kleiner Perkins is that females were not invited to some social outings with the other partners/execs. As this becomes a more serious issue, and like you - I am expecting an ongoing purge, the status quo is going to be shaken in ways other than taking out the trash.

tabeth 9y ago

I feel that the quantity of these reports has been increasing since the whole Weinstein incident. I wonder if it is because there's more comfort in finally sharing or because reporters are looking for scoops more. Either way, it's good I think.

saas_co_de 9y ago
It is being reported now when it wasn't before. Rose McGowan was publicly accusing Weinstein (not by name but it was known) of rape for a long time before the media would report it. There have also been several high profile media people who have been fired for sexual misconduct so that has probably made the upper level management in the media afraid to continue covering up these stories.
pjc50 9y ago
And inevitably it's being co-opted into the media wars. https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/a-woman-approached-the-post-with-dramatic--and-false--tale-about-roy-moore-sje-appears-to-be-part-of-undercover-sting-operation/2017/11/27/0c2e335a-cfb6-11e7-9d3a-bcbe2af58c3a_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/a-woman-approa...
- maxerickson 9y ago
  That's a very generous description of the dumbassery perpetrated by Project Veritas there.

JoeAltmaier 9y ago

This is all well and good, high-profile folks getting repercussions for their abusive behavior. But how does this help the folks down behind the counter at KFC, or on the factory floor, or at the dry-cleaners? I hope some cultural change comes of all this, else its just more celebrity gossip.

zymhan 9y ago
If the top people at a company can be publicly named and shamed, then that hopefully conveys the idea that this behavior won't be tolerated on any level.
- matte_black 9y ago
  It could also backfire and show that the only people worth reporting on are those at the top, since that’s all we hear about.
epmaybe 9y ago
This is a really astute observation. My only thought is that by showing that powerful people aren't impervious, there's inspiration and motivation for that harassed employee to get up and do something about it.
pjc50 9y ago
It helps when the folks down behind the counter at KFC, or on the factory floor, or at the dry-cleaners get groped by their boss and want to report him to his boss.

dominotw 9y ago

Why can't we put these people behind bars. What is going on, is this not really a crime in societies eyes.

zymhan 9y ago
People coming forward is step one. Those people feeling like they can go through with pressing charges and going to court is step two.
Cthulhu_ 9y ago
What laws did he break, what evidence is there, where's the police reports?
ct0 9y ago
False reports are a real thing, and very common unfortunately.
- pwinnski 9y ago
  Not very common at all, in fact. And almost certainly irrelevant to the story at hand. https://qz.com/980766/the-truth-about-false-rape-accusations/ https://qz.com/980766/the-truth-about-false-rape-accusations...
  - wehadfun 9y ago
    Impossible to know. I don't care what qz.com claims. Usually this stuff is done discretely so only 2 people really know what happened. There is also the fuzzy line between trying to laid and outright harassment.
    - abiox 9y ago
      > There is also the fuzzy line between there isn't necessarily a line. if you keep "trying to get laid" after being told someone wasn't interested, you're doing both.

junkscience2017 9y ago

If you are a wealthy coastal elite you can just apologize for sexual misconduct and seek "therapy" at a luxury spa. Every morning you can enjoy shade-grown coffee and cage-free eggs from a small family-owned farm in Mendocino county...afterwards you can attend a short session with a therapist before attending yoga. why downvote? This is literally a day planner for Kevin Spacey right now. See Harvey Weinstein being charged with rape? He will get off (tee hee) with a short statement of regret. This is your world, you can't downvote it away!

matt4077 9y ago
If your are "a wealthy coastal elite" you can already do all of those things, presumably. Since these people aren't living the liberal dream life of your little fantasy, they are presumably losing something they greatly desire when ousted from their positions of power. At the very least, they lose the opportunity to use their power to continue their victimisation of others.
sctb 9y ago
Could you please not violate the guidelines? You've been doing this a lot. It asks us to comment substantively and to not complain about downvotes. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

lukateake 9y ago

Why omit "Uber" from the title on HN?

saas_co_de 9y ago
As much as I enjoy piling on Uber, this seems to have nothing to do with them, and is just there for clickbait.
- lukateake 9y ago
  HN policy has always been to leave the title intact. And I, for one, find his affiliation with Uber to be of particular interest given Susan Fowler's story.
  - ams6110 9y ago
    Not true. It is permitted to neutralize a clickbait title if the story is otherwise worthy.
    - lukateake 9y ago
      Without looking at Crunchbase, please name one other investment of Shervin Pishevar that has the cultural reach of Uber. I suspect a randomly selected person would not be able to do so. And Uber has a well documented history of hostile or discriminatory behavior that hews close to the article's topic.
      - ams6110 9y ago
        I, like most people, didn't even recognize the name Shervin Pishevar. Of course I do recognize Uber, so putting Uber in the title when the story is not about Uber is clickbait.
      - Fnoord 9y ago
        Keeping or removing Uber is a complex decision: He's a little bit more than merely an Uber investor. Quoting: "He is a strategic advisor to Uber, and served as a board advisor to the company from 2011–2015." [1] He also invested in many more companies than merely Uber. [1] Therefore a case can be made for both keeping Uber as well as removing Uber from the title. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shervin_Pishevar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shervin_Pishevar

bitsyblits 9y ago

A new sexual-harassment-proof venture fund is what's needed, like these guys https://medium.com/@abdulbinatsef/eunuchs-vc-launches-with-new-400m-fund-74013330cd35 https://medium.com/@abdulbinatsef/eunuchs-vc-launches-with-n...

epx 9y ago

Jesus, what's wrong with these men?!

krapp 9y ago
Society often encourages and rewards sexual aggression and dominance in successful men - such behavior is symbolic of their status and virility, and has been since the days when sultans collected women in harems. Society is just an abstraction of primate hierarchies built on violence and sex with a thin veneer of civility applied, not that that excuses anything. But the point is, this behavior isn't unusual. It's valid to ask what's wrong with these men, but you should also ask what's wrong with cultures which reinforce predatory masculinity and allow it to propagate.
- epx 9y ago
  I mean, being rich and powerful already makes a whole lot easier for a man to conquest women (and vice-versa), I don't like it but that's the way it is - just riding a better car creates a lot of opportunities like I have myself experimented - so why bother forcing your way?
  - indubitable 9y ago
    I would imagine the situation for many of these people is not as great as you're framing it. For the most part the accused have been unusually physically unattractive and to say their personalities don't make up for it would be quite the understatement. So they have a situation where if somebody is interested in them it's almost certainly because they're interested in their money. And if they hide their wealth from people - then nobody would be any more interested in them than your average aging unattractive individual. So sure they can get laid by prostitutes and gold diggers, but that in many ways has to be incredibly emasculating. Imagine how awful it must be to know that if somebody shows interest in you, that they're probably lying to you and just after your money. The wife of Weinstein was a head and shoulders commercial girl. George Clooney's wife is a high profile lawyer whose clients include Julian Assange, the former PM of Ukraine, etc. Anecdotal, but there are plenty of very attractive and charismatic wealthy individuals. Yet, at least for now, it seems like they're not the ones engaged in this behavior. And there I would imagine it's because your stereotyping holds much more true.

cantrip 9y ago

It's insane that this article outs one of the alleged victims based on other's account of what happened even though she herself declined to comment. Women should be given the freedom to disclose these things on their own terms and this has been taken away from her.

craftyguy 9y ago
But it's super trendy to report on sexual misconduct these days, and no news outlet is going to sacrifice clicks for victim freedoms. /s
- cantrip 9y ago
  It's not trendy it's a much needed discussion that is a long time overdue. Don't diminish it by labeling it as trendy.
  - dominotw 9y ago
    much needed thing can be trendy.
    - cantrip 9y ago
      Don't diminish it by labeling it trendy.
dawhizkid 9y ago
one of my first thoughts reading this article - aren't there journalistic standards around things like this?
- cantrip 9y ago
  Yeah I really don't get it. It's not like the accusations from the multiple women who would speak on the record weren't damning enough. But the author decided to open the article with secondhand accounts of abuse towards a woman who did not want to speak about it. It's very poor journalism.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

dboreham 9y ago

Wondering how long before we don't have enough douchebags left to run the place.

QAPereo 9y ago
Well never run out, they’ll just select for new cryptic colorations and evasive behaviors. Fools and assholes are humanity’s greatest resources.
cantrip 9y ago
A reverse Atlas Shrugged, where society flourishes and people are able to fulfill their full potential once all the incredibly corrupt people disappear from the system.

kolbe 9y ago

Sexuality has value. Our system will continue to be in a chaotic disequilibrium until we can find a way to manage the fact that sexuality has as much value as money and power, and that it is impossible to separate it from business. But where we're at now, sexuality is just feared by timid people, and exploited by scumbags.