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I agree that this can be used for ill, but there's a number of very valid reasons to use these tools: - Heatmap views of where people hover and start to type

I agree that this can be used for ill, but there's a number of very valid reasons to use these tools: - Heatmap views of where people hover and start to type - capture of individual sessions to research support cases - Better understanding of user flows through a site or web app And all of these tools, at least the reputable ones cited in the article, allow you to mask fields or parts of the screens so that PII isn't captured, and reputable companies do that. The other part of this is that I don't think the article captures well is that these tools aren't used for targeting of ads or personalization or "spying" in the sense of malice, but to try to better understand users, what they're trying to find on a site, and clarify pain when using applications. I also think the people that use these tools, generally speaking, are perfectly fine with blocking them, since it's meant as a diagnostic and analytic tool.

Brotkrumen 9y ago
Passwords, medical records and credit card information are so sensitive that it's irrelevant that there are good uses for the tech that captures them or that at some point in the pipeline they get masked.
- mattzito 9y ago
  So, to be clear, the way at least the tools I've worked with operate: - websites implementing these tools need to specifically opt-in text fields they want to capture the inputs for - for HTML-side capture, the javascript will obfuscate PII before sending it to the servers - some of these tools will not capture password fields under any circumstances Does that address some of your concerns?
  - Brotkrumen 9y ago
    No. There's too many parties involved I'd have to trust to a) want to keep my data save and b) don't mess up. And even if both are true, I have to accept yet another way with several points of failure where bad agent could exfiltrate my data.
    - PJDK 9y ago
      But this is being run by a party you trust with that data in the first place surely? It's capturing the things you are typing into the website's input boxes!
      - krangu 9y ago
        Just because you trust the first party site with that information doesn't mean you would necessarily trust a third party to store or transmit that info.
      - orwin 9y ago
        We trust the website we give our information to. It is https-based (else my browser will tell me) and probably using an ORM that will 99% of the time hash my password. But the javascript layer... Sorry, call me paranoiac, but i will never trust the javascript of a website. With no webdev experience, i was able to inject js (almost by mistake) three years ago. Moreover, is the js communicating with the backend using https too? How can i check that? Are those js library on the website server, or are they hosted by a third party? I can trust them, but how do i know that no attacker was able to modify those scripts? Yes, those risks are small, but i'd rather have ublock making those risks closer tho 0 than not, am i wrong?
ams6110 9y ago
That's mostly fine, but it should be clear to me (the user) that it is happening.
pmlnr 9y ago
> number of very valid reasons I'm genuinely curious what steps are executed once this data is collected. Also, in theory, you only need to do this after design/layout changes and only for a while, so what justifies collecting it all the time? I might be wrong though.
- cordite 9y ago
  Usually if someone complains to support, their session can be tracked down and sent to the devs.
  - pmlnr 9y ago
    o.O that goes massively against data protection laws.
    - ashark 9y ago
      There are definitely SaaS tools that let you watch a user's session on your site. They stitch together page transitions, show you the mouse cursor moving around, what they type. It's like watching a remote desktop session. Creepy as hell.
    - cordite 9y ago
      Data protection laws? Provide some examples. Google does this on all of their products. And people that have left Google have made their own versions of this software for others to use. For example: https://www.fullstory.com/ https://www.fullstory.com/
- mattzito 9y ago
  So, again, the use cases here are varied. For the most common, which is understanding user behavior, you'll do something like: - I'm going to capture 5% of users sessions as they progress through a purchase funnel - I capture data for a few days after a design change, and look at behavioral changes, such as spending more time in a particular step of the funnel - Where there's something weird going on, I'll watch an aggregate view of people's mouse behaviors - I can then see that a lot of people are hovering between two different buttons, or highlighting a particular sentence - Based on that feedback, I'll do an A/B test of changing the button textx or the dialogue message - Capture more data, did that change? It's not "Let's go look at john smith's website behavior" except in the support example, where you get a user's consent to do that, and you usually only do it for internal corporate applications where there's a dedicated helpdesk.
consp 9y ago
Doing this without explicit user consent (explicit, detailed and with risks shown) is illegal for all 'good' use cases. (At least in the EU). It is criminal for all others. Edit: It also needs to be stored anonymously, though even people I know who build wifi/bluetooth tracking software&hardware say that is almost impossible.
- mattzito 9y ago
  So, in a GDPR world, it is true that you need to get more explicit user consent for the gathering of this permission. However, I think it's overly dramatic to say "illegal for all good use cases" and criminal for others. These tools have been used for years in the EU, with signoff from lawyers and regulators when PII is being obfuscated or removed.
  - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
    GDPR is addressing precisely these things though, and tightening up the allowed actions. It doesn't really matter if it was previously allowed, you need explicit documented consent to store PII. But, I thought it wasn't coming in to force until next May.
nippples 9y ago
There's a lot of "valid reasons" for doing a lot of bad things.
onion2k 9y ago
there's a number of very valid reasons to use these tools They're very useful for testing. I don't think there's any debate about that. The issue is with using them in production capturing everyone's data with no regard for a user's privacy.
erikbern 9y ago
I've found these tools extremely useful to understand user behavior. We rely on Fullstory all the time to improve the user experience, to identify bugs, and to debug user issues. The result of these tools is a far better user experience on our site and many other sites. "recording every keystroke" makes it sound like there's malicious intent, but it's misleading. It should be added that all these tools have a lot of options to avoid tracking sensitive data (like password fields) and we always rely on that (in fact anything else would be a compliance violation for us).
- evgen 9y ago
  I don't have any malicious intent, but don't mind me as I set up camp here in your bedroom...
- titzer 9y ago
  > "recording every keystroke" makes it sound like there's malicious intent Thinking from a security perspective, I'm not sure "intent" is an important consideration. The question is: should third parties have the technical capability to do this? IMO there are enough bad actors out there to answer this with a resounding _no_, at least by default. If you want to record user browsing sessions, you should ask permission.
  - zerocrates 9y ago
    I suppose the issue here is that these aren't really "third" parties doing the recording, even if they're using third-party scripts.
    - arkh 9y ago
      Yeah the owner of the website which include the script has only their website data. The third party follows users over all the websites they're deployed on. Best example is google analytics and all beacons scripts (G+, FB like, share on twitter etc.) which track you almost everywhere.
endemic 9y ago
Those are all valid reasons. But what these companies need to do instead is pay consenting users to engage in usability sessions.
- larrik 9y ago
  I know plenty of companies would pay a lot for usability sessions if they were remotely accurate (and they do anyway), but they really aren't like regular users using the site naturally.
  - rtb 9y ago
    Because people don't think they're being watched. ... so it is deceptive to watch them.
tzahola 9y ago
"There are a number of very valid reasons to install cameras and microphones in every living room. Consider the amount of domestic abuse that could be prevented this way! Also, interior designers could further understand and tweak the layout of people's living rooms for optimal recreation and entertainment."
- talmand 9y ago
  A more correct comparison is a store recording how people shop in their locations to better optimize paths and locations of products. Your comparison is more like an app that watches everything you do on your computer outside the context of the app. Not quite the same thing.
  - rbobby 9y ago
    > a store recording how people shop in their locations to better optimize paths and locations of products Hmmm... nice pitch. Has your series A filled up yet? /hehehe like I have money :)
    - ryukafalz 9y ago
      Retailers already do this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/10/19/how-stores-use-your-phones-wifi-to-track-your-shopping-habits/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/10/19...
  - dec0dedab0de 9y ago
    An even more correct comparison is if you invited a salesperson into your house and they had hidden cameras and other sensors recording everything.
    - bhhaskin 9y ago
      Not really, because again it doesn't recorded anything outside of it's context. It's more like being part of a user study group every time you use their product, whether or not you want to be, or agree to be.
gkya 9y ago
Certainly if someone breaks into my house and watches it with not-spy-at-all cameras, they can know how I live and provide me with better products shaped for my habits and preferences, and help me with emergencies or particularly difficult tasks. But that might be sliiightly inconvenient at times, no?
- talmand 9y ago
  Not quite the same thing.
Raphmedia 9y ago
> what they're trying to find on a site, and clarify pain when using applications. No. We are doing analytics for the sole purpose of selling our products and services better. Let's not kid ourselves into thinking we are spying on our users for the greater good. Nobody implements user tracking simply to make their user's lives better. If it does happens, it's merely a side effect of our sales strategies.

Brotkrumen 9y ago

Passwords, medical records and credit card information are so sensitive that it's irrelevant that there are good uses for the tech that captures them or that at some point in the pipeline they get masked.

mattzito 9y ago
So, to be clear, the way at least the tools I've worked with operate: - websites implementing these tools need to specifically opt-in text fields they want to capture the inputs for - for HTML-side capture, the javascript will obfuscate PII before sending it to the servers - some of these tools will not capture password fields under any circumstances Does that address some of your concerns?
- Brotkrumen 9y ago
  No. There's too many parties involved I'd have to trust to a) want to keep my data save and b) don't mess up. And even if both are true, I have to accept yet another way with several points of failure where bad agent could exfiltrate my data.
  - PJDK 9y ago
    But this is being run by a party you trust with that data in the first place surely? It's capturing the things you are typing into the website's input boxes!
    - krangu 9y ago
      Just because you trust the first party site with that information doesn't mean you would necessarily trust a third party to store or transmit that info.
    - orwin 9y ago
      We trust the website we give our information to. It is https-based (else my browser will tell me) and probably using an ORM that will 99% of the time hash my password. But the javascript layer... Sorry, call me paranoiac, but i will never trust the javascript of a website. With no webdev experience, i was able to inject js (almost by mistake) three years ago. Moreover, is the js communicating with the backend using https too? How can i check that? Are those js library on the website server, or are they hosted by a third party? I can trust them, but how do i know that no attacker was able to modify those scripts? Yes, those risks are small, but i'd rather have ublock making those risks closer tho 0 than not, am i wrong?

ams6110 9y ago

That's mostly fine, but it should be clear to me (the user) that it is happening.

pmlnr 9y ago

> number of very valid reasons I'm genuinely curious what steps are executed once this data is collected. Also, in theory, you only need to do this after design/layout changes and only for a while, so what justifies collecting it all the time? I might be wrong though.

cordite 9y ago
Usually if someone complains to support, their session can be tracked down and sent to the devs.
- pmlnr 9y ago
  o.O that goes massively against data protection laws.
  - ashark 9y ago
    There are definitely SaaS tools that let you watch a user's session on your site. They stitch together page transitions, show you the mouse cursor moving around, what they type. It's like watching a remote desktop session. Creepy as hell.
  - cordite 9y ago
    Data protection laws? Provide some examples. Google does this on all of their products. And people that have left Google have made their own versions of this software for others to use. For example: https://www.fullstory.com/ https://www.fullstory.com/
mattzito 9y ago
So, again, the use cases here are varied. For the most common, which is understanding user behavior, you'll do something like: - I'm going to capture 5% of users sessions as they progress through a purchase funnel - I capture data for a few days after a design change, and look at behavioral changes, such as spending more time in a particular step of the funnel - Where there's something weird going on, I'll watch an aggregate view of people's mouse behaviors - I can then see that a lot of people are hovering between two different buttons, or highlighting a particular sentence - Based on that feedback, I'll do an A/B test of changing the button textx or the dialogue message - Capture more data, did that change? It's not "Let's go look at john smith's website behavior" except in the support example, where you get a user's consent to do that, and you usually only do it for internal corporate applications where there's a dedicated helpdesk.

consp 9y ago

Doing this without explicit user consent (explicit, detailed and with risks shown) is illegal for all 'good' use cases. (At least in the EU). It is criminal for all others. Edit: It also needs to be stored anonymously, though even people I know who build wifi/bluetooth tracking software&hardware say that is almost impossible.

mattzito 9y ago
So, in a GDPR world, it is true that you need to get more explicit user consent for the gathering of this permission. However, I think it's overly dramatic to say "illegal for all good use cases" and criminal for others. These tools have been used for years in the EU, with signoff from lawyers and regulators when PII is being obfuscated or removed.
- pbhjpbhj 9y ago
  GDPR is addressing precisely these things though, and tightening up the allowed actions. It doesn't really matter if it was previously allowed, you need explicit documented consent to store PII. But, I thought it wasn't coming in to force until next May.

nippples 9y ago

There's a lot of "valid reasons" for doing a lot of bad things.

onion2k 9y ago

there's a number of very valid reasons to use these tools They're very useful for testing. I don't think there's any debate about that. The issue is with using them in production capturing everyone's data with no regard for a user's privacy.

erikbern 9y ago

I've found these tools extremely useful to understand user behavior. We rely on Fullstory all the time to improve the user experience, to identify bugs, and to debug user issues. The result of these tools is a far better user experience on our site and many other sites. "recording every keystroke" makes it sound like there's malicious intent, but it's misleading. It should be added that all these tools have a lot of options to avoid tracking sensitive data (like password fields) and we always rely on that (in fact anything else would be a compliance violation for us).

evgen 9y ago
I don't have any malicious intent, but don't mind me as I set up camp here in your bedroom...
titzer 9y ago
> "recording every keystroke" makes it sound like there's malicious intent Thinking from a security perspective, I'm not sure "intent" is an important consideration. The question is: should third parties have the technical capability to do this? IMO there are enough bad actors out there to answer this with a resounding _no_, at least by default. If you want to record user browsing sessions, you should ask permission.
- zerocrates 9y ago
  I suppose the issue here is that these aren't really "third" parties doing the recording, even if they're using third-party scripts.
  - arkh 9y ago
    Yeah the owner of the website which include the script has only their website data. The third party follows users over all the websites they're deployed on. Best example is google analytics and all beacons scripts (G+, FB like, share on twitter etc.) which track you almost everywhere.

endemic 9y ago

Those are all valid reasons. But what these companies need to do instead is pay consenting users to engage in usability sessions.

larrik 9y ago
I know plenty of companies would pay a lot for usability sessions if they were remotely accurate (and they do anyway), but they really aren't like regular users using the site naturally.
- rtb 9y ago
  Because people don't think they're being watched. ... so it is deceptive to watch them.

tzahola 9y ago

"There are a number of very valid reasons to install cameras and microphones in every living room. Consider the amount of domestic abuse that could be prevented this way! Also, interior designers could further understand and tweak the layout of people's living rooms for optimal recreation and entertainment."

talmand 9y ago
A more correct comparison is a store recording how people shop in their locations to better optimize paths and locations of products. Your comparison is more like an app that watches everything you do on your computer outside the context of the app. Not quite the same thing.
- rbobby 9y ago
  > a store recording how people shop in their locations to better optimize paths and locations of products Hmmm... nice pitch. Has your series A filled up yet? /hehehe like I have money :)
  - ryukafalz 9y ago
    Retailers already do this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/10/19/how-stores-use-your-phones-wifi-to-track-your-shopping-habits/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/10/19...
- dec0dedab0de 9y ago
  An even more correct comparison is if you invited a salesperson into your house and they had hidden cameras and other sensors recording everything.
  - bhhaskin 9y ago
    Not really, because again it doesn't recorded anything outside of it's context. It's more like being part of a user study group every time you use their product, whether or not you want to be, or agree to be.

gkya 9y ago

Certainly if someone breaks into my house and watches it with not-spy-at-all cameras, they can know how I live and provide me with better products shaped for my habits and preferences, and help me with emergencies or particularly difficult tasks. But that might be sliiightly inconvenient at times, no?

talmand 9y ago
Not quite the same thing.

Raphmedia 9y ago

> what they're trying to find on a site, and clarify pain when using applications. No. We are doing analytics for the sole purpose of selling our products and services better. Let's not kid ourselves into thinking we are spying on our users for the greater good. Nobody implements user tracking simply to make their user's lives better. If it does happens, it's merely a side effect of our sales strategies.