9 ms·

>> "Anecdotaly, about 20% of new hires under 30 don’t understand the concept of showing up on time (or at all)" Don't kid yourself. Those new hires are at othe

>> "Anecdotaly, about 20% of new hires under 30 don’t understand the concept of showing up on time (or at all)" Don't kid yourself. Those new hires are at other jobs making more money. I am booked for a roofer in feb 2018 (fingers crossed - friend of a friend). Blue skills are in extremely high demand. And those guys are working extremely hard making really high incomes (400k+). These guys are highly paid and are not messing around -- most saw 2008. They drive nice trucks, own their company, have rude secretaries and wont look at your email until feb 18 (fingers crossed). Look at a blue collar guys' current circumstance: no competition (know anyone learning HVAC?), a HUGE housing boom in cali, pass through low tax income, 2k homes burned (wtf), no outsourcing (try outsourcing a plumber) -- as my mentor said: "Harvest time".

jetrink 9y ago
This reminds me of the observation[1] that most applicants for programming positions can't implement FizzBuzz. This has led some to conclude that the majority of programmers would be stumped by the task, but it is more likely that such programmers are overrepresented in the applicant pool. 1. http://wiki.c2.com/?FizzBuzzTest http://wiki.c2.com/?FizzBuzzTest
- danielvf 9y ago
  This is exactly the issue. It’s not that all $manufacturing_demographic have issues showing up up, working, or are doing drugs, it’s that the pool has been almost picked clean of those who don’t.
  - s73ver_ 9y ago
    It doesn't help that most employers are not willing to do what it takes to attract qualified employees.
- expertentipp 9y ago
  So we have filtered 0.5% "elite" passing FizzBuzz, what shall we do now? Those need CV crafted in LaTeX, maintain public repositories, have fluency in latest frameworks and APIs, demand moderate salary... wait... nobody's left. SHORTAGE! Teach EVERYONE programming!
  - potta_coffee 9y ago
    So true. So frustrating. I'm not a top-shelf engineer, but I'm perfectly capable of working on a team and producing good work. Finding jobs is an extremely difficult process.
- milofeynman 9y ago
  I can't even get companies to send me FizzBuzz or any coding test when applying to remote jobs. I'm not sure they even see my application with the flood of applicants they get.
opportune 9y ago
I always read these ridiculously high salaries and laugh. Your average HVAC worker is not making $400k. I do know people in construction/HVAC/plumbers/electricians and it's the bosses making that money, not the grunt workers. The people on the front lines still make good money, for some easily approaching $100k/year, so there's not really a need for embellishment. That isn't to say that it's unattainable, but it's akin to saying that software developers make $400k/year when it's usually 10-20+ year tenured engineering managers at a few specific companies actually making that much.
- pedrosorio 9y ago
  "tenured engineering managers"? http://thestartupconference.com/2017/03/25/the-350k-google-salary-is-hurting-startups/ http://thestartupconference.com/2017/03/25/the-350k-google-s...
  - opportune 9y ago
    That's an even more specific case, because again, most software developers aren't working at Google/FB/Airbnb/Uber/Snap. And those are figures for experienced workers to boot, and "Staff Engineer" is typically a managerial role IMO, if not directly by delegation/HR-type stuff, then in a technical sense. The total comp is in practice also generally a bit lower because most of those companies backload the vesting
    - jacobolus 9y ago
      “Staff Engineer” is about halfway up the technical career ladder in many places, with a few possible (but increasingly rare) levels above, and a few levels below. Someone promoted to staff engineer likely has at least 5 years of work experience (probably more) and is self-motivated, good at their job, gets along well with their coworkers, and has some technical vision. Many of these people might have some quasi-managerial duties (interacting with other parts of the organization, helping with recruiting, ...), get roped into more meetings than they would like, or make high-level technical decisions and delegate work to a handful of more junior engineers, but most of them are sitting at their desks writing code a significant part of the day (or perhaps rewriting the schlocky code that the junior engineers just handed in).
southphillyman 9y ago
Where can one go to learn these "blue collar" skills? As a recent home owner I'm learning first hand how valuable these skills are by way of my wallet. Seems like most people I meet who do these kinds of jobs were "born into it", and learned by helping a family member who was already in the industry. Are there IIT type schools which teach these kinds of things on a part time basis?
- giobox 9y ago
  For a great many, youtube is surprisingly awesome. My normal approach to home DIY now is to watch as many youtube videos of the process I want to try as possible, then make a determination if it is something I still want professional help with or can try to do myself.
  - codekilla 9y ago
    Agreed, I renovated basically my entire condo using this process, hiring out the jobs that looked unreasonable to try and do myself. I was able to do quite a bit though, youtube is awesome for this.
  - finishcarpenter 9y ago
    There is a inverse relationship on youtube DIY remodel videos. The better the video quality, the worse the advice and vice versa. Many of these 'experts' are more interested in video production (and possibly revenue from it) than they are knowing about actual building codes and practices.
  - avasylev 9y ago
    YouTube is awesome for DIY, I moved to older house two years ago and with youtube helps I've added crown moldings, repainted all rooms, replaced baseboard, built patio, deck - lots of fun, I think without youtube I wouldn't done any of it, zero experience before. Funny, my dad did a lot of renovations, and a lot of times I'd get more details/better tips on youtube than asking him :) But youtube is great for common DIY projects - how to add crown molding - tens of really good detailed videos. But if project is less commonly done by DIY folks, not that much info - I've needed to replace exterior window trim - not that much, people usually hire for that. DIY subreddit is also a good place to search and ask questions.
avasylev 9y ago
I don't think roofers are good example, not sure where you live, but last summer I got roofers scheduled in a week (Boston area). By locally known construction company, I got estimate and contract by American owner/sales man - he probably does well, but the actual work was done by Brazilian crew, which I'm guessing was mostly illegal immigrants likely paid less than minimum wage. From my observations with neighbors and friends, all roof work done in the area is by Brazilian crews (I don't know why Brazilian specifically, but that how it is). Good luck competing wit them. Another anecdote example is small framing company owner (originally from Russia), mostly hires illegal Russian immigrants who work for near minimum wage. The owner may do well, but not the rest of the crew.
- forapurpose 9y ago
  > the actual work was done by Brazilian crew, which I'm guessing was mostly illegal immigrants likely paid less than minimum wage There are millions of immigrants in the U.S. who are legal; why would you think these people are not? I guess my point is, it's not a good assumption and has bad consequences: People having their legality questioned based on no evidence.
  - avasylev 9y ago
    legality questioned? come on, of course it's not good to assume anything about people, lots of things happen in life. That doesn't mean I had to go ask each of them to show me their documents, so I can make a guess on internet forum.
    - forapurpose 9y ago
      > I can make a guess on internet forum On one hand, I understand that people don't want to be challenged or to write dissertations for casual conversation. On the other, we know that misinformation spreading through 'internet forums' in the form of 'guesses' is a problem, that HN isn't a typical internet forum, and that 'guesses' are often challenged here.
- curun1r 9y ago
shams93 9y ago
Wow as an engineer with a master's degree in LA you top out at around 100k which after taxes leaves you with barely enough to make rent. Can't be a housing boom here the locals are being displaced at lightening speed. I have 20 years of experience and a master's degree and I struggle to afford both rent and food but I work 100 hours a week for 40 hours pay to not be laid off. These guys could be making 400k in a union job, and not working that hard for it. We build the future but are allowed a life where we barely hang onto survival in California.
shamsalmon 9y ago
More like 100k, but yes, salaries are high for highly trained trades jobs. You just have to get your foot in the door.
himom 9y ago
As an exception that’s not a counterargument: in the 90’s, the galvanized-to-copper repipe plumber (and helpers including a son) whom did the house I grew up in also did dozens of houses in a wealthy area around SJ/Los Gatos for several years, raking in $200k+ personally for that time and probably later. Mostly referrals. Amazing, prompt, proactive customer service, setting expectations, after support and cool guy. Professionalism, negotiation skills and quality service encourage referrals in places where friends / neighbors know one-another. That is, towns where customers having fewer friends or acquaintances (like neighbors or social media connections) tend not to scale via referral network effects. Also, a lifestyle business can scale somewhat by adding good employees carefully and encouraging a decency culture with accountability. TL;DR - better companies need better cultures; keep superconnector customers insanely happy
dang 9y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15748742 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15748742 and marked it off-topic. That's not precise, since it's not exactly off-topic, but the subthread went off into arguments about $400k and left the station.

jetrink 9y ago

This reminds me of the observation[1] that most applicants for programming positions can't implement FizzBuzz. This has led some to conclude that the majority of programmers would be stumped by the task, but it is more likely that such programmers are overrepresented in the applicant pool. 1. http://wiki.c2.com/?FizzBuzzTest http://wiki.c2.com/?FizzBuzzTest

danielvf 9y ago
This is exactly the issue. It’s not that all $manufacturing_demographic have issues showing up up, working, or are doing drugs, it’s that the pool has been almost picked clean of those who don’t.
- s73ver_ 9y ago
  It doesn't help that most employers are not willing to do what it takes to attract qualified employees.
expertentipp 9y ago
So we have filtered 0.5% "elite" passing FizzBuzz, what shall we do now? Those need CV crafted in LaTeX, maintain public repositories, have fluency in latest frameworks and APIs, demand moderate salary... wait... nobody's left. SHORTAGE! Teach EVERYONE programming!
- potta_coffee 9y ago
  So true. So frustrating. I'm not a top-shelf engineer, but I'm perfectly capable of working on a team and producing good work. Finding jobs is an extremely difficult process.
milofeynman 9y ago
I can't even get companies to send me FizzBuzz or any coding test when applying to remote jobs. I'm not sure they even see my application with the flood of applicants they get.

opportune 9y ago

I always read these ridiculously high salaries and laugh. Your average HVAC worker is not making $400k. I do know people in construction/HVAC/plumbers/electricians and it's the bosses making that money, not the grunt workers. The people on the front lines still make good money, for some easily approaching $100k/year, so there's not really a need for embellishment. That isn't to say that it's unattainable, but it's akin to saying that software developers make $400k/year when it's usually 10-20+ year tenured engineering managers at a few specific companies actually making that much.

pedrosorio 9y ago
"tenured engineering managers"? http://thestartupconference.com/2017/03/25/the-350k-google-salary-is-hurting-startups/ http://thestartupconference.com/2017/03/25/the-350k-google-s...
- opportune 9y ago
  That's an even more specific case, because again, most software developers aren't working at Google/FB/Airbnb/Uber/Snap. And those are figures for experienced workers to boot, and "Staff Engineer" is typically a managerial role IMO, if not directly by delegation/HR-type stuff, then in a technical sense. The total comp is in practice also generally a bit lower because most of those companies backload the vesting
  - jacobolus 9y ago
    “Staff Engineer” is about halfway up the technical career ladder in many places, with a few possible (but increasingly rare) levels above, and a few levels below. Someone promoted to staff engineer likely has at least 5 years of work experience (probably more) and is self-motivated, good at their job, gets along well with their coworkers, and has some technical vision. Many of these people might have some quasi-managerial duties (interacting with other parts of the organization, helping with recruiting, ...), get roped into more meetings than they would like, or make high-level technical decisions and delegate work to a handful of more junior engineers, but most of them are sitting at their desks writing code a significant part of the day (or perhaps rewriting the schlocky code that the junior engineers just handed in).

southphillyman 9y ago

Where can one go to learn these "blue collar" skills? As a recent home owner I'm learning first hand how valuable these skills are by way of my wallet. Seems like most people I meet who do these kinds of jobs were "born into it", and learned by helping a family member who was already in the industry. Are there IIT type schools which teach these kinds of things on a part time basis?

giobox 9y ago
For a great many, youtube is surprisingly awesome. My normal approach to home DIY now is to watch as many youtube videos of the process I want to try as possible, then make a determination if it is something I still want professional help with or can try to do myself.
- codekilla 9y ago
  Agreed, I renovated basically my entire condo using this process, hiring out the jobs that looked unreasonable to try and do myself. I was able to do quite a bit though, youtube is awesome for this.
- finishcarpenter 9y ago
  There is a inverse relationship on youtube DIY remodel videos. The better the video quality, the worse the advice and vice versa. Many of these 'experts' are more interested in video production (and possibly revenue from it) than they are knowing about actual building codes and practices.
- avasylev 9y ago
  YouTube is awesome for DIY, I moved to older house two years ago and with youtube helps I've added crown moldings, repainted all rooms, replaced baseboard, built patio, deck - lots of fun, I think without youtube I wouldn't done any of it, zero experience before. Funny, my dad did a lot of renovations, and a lot of times I'd get more details/better tips on youtube than asking him :) But youtube is great for common DIY projects - how to add crown molding - tens of really good detailed videos. But if project is less commonly done by DIY folks, not that much info - I've needed to replace exterior window trim - not that much, people usually hire for that. DIY subreddit is also a good place to search and ask questions.

avasylev 9y ago

I don't think roofers are good example, not sure where you live, but last summer I got roofers scheduled in a week (Boston area). By locally known construction company, I got estimate and contract by American owner/sales man - he probably does well, but the actual work was done by Brazilian crew, which I'm guessing was mostly illegal immigrants likely paid less than minimum wage. From my observations with neighbors and friends, all roof work done in the area is by Brazilian crews (I don't know why Brazilian specifically, but that how it is). Good luck competing wit them. Another anecdote example is small framing company owner (originally from Russia), mostly hires illegal Russian immigrants who work for near minimum wage. The owner may do well, but not the rest of the crew.

forapurpose 9y ago
> the actual work was done by Brazilian crew, which I'm guessing was mostly illegal immigrants likely paid less than minimum wage There are millions of immigrants in the U.S. who are legal; why would you think these people are not? I guess my point is, it's not a good assumption and has bad consequences: People having their legality questioned based on no evidence.
- avasylev 9y ago
  legality questioned? come on, of course it's not good to assume anything about people, lots of things happen in life. That doesn't mean I had to go ask each of them to show me their documents, so I can make a guess on internet forum.
  - forapurpose 9y ago
    > I can make a guess on internet forum On one hand, I understand that people don't want to be challenged or to write dissertations for casual conversation. On the other, we know that misinformation spreading through 'internet forums' in the form of 'guesses' is a problem, that HN isn't a typical internet forum, and that 'guesses' are often challenged here.
curun1r 9y ago

shams93 9y ago

Wow as an engineer with a master's degree in LA you top out at around 100k which after taxes leaves you with barely enough to make rent. Can't be a housing boom here the locals are being displaced at lightening speed. I have 20 years of experience and a master's degree and I struggle to afford both rent and food but I work 100 hours a week for 40 hours pay to not be laid off. These guys could be making 400k in a union job, and not working that hard for it. We build the future but are allowed a life where we barely hang onto survival in California.

shamsalmon 9y ago

More like 100k, but yes, salaries are high for highly trained trades jobs. You just have to get your foot in the door.

himom 9y ago

As an exception that’s not a counterargument: in the 90’s, the galvanized-to-copper repipe plumber (and helpers including a son) whom did the house I grew up in also did dozens of houses in a wealthy area around SJ/Los Gatos for several years, raking in $200k+ personally for that time and probably later. Mostly referrals. Amazing, prompt, proactive customer service, setting expectations, after support and cool guy. Professionalism, negotiation skills and quality service encourage referrals in places where friends / neighbors know one-another. That is, towns where customers having fewer friends or acquaintances (like neighbors or social media connections) tend not to scale via referral network effects. Also, a lifestyle business can scale somewhat by adding good employees carefully and encouraging a decency culture with accountability. TL;DR - better companies need better cultures; keep superconnector customers insanely happy

dang 9y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15748742 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15748742 and marked it off-topic. That's not precise, since it's not exactly off-topic, but the subthread went off into arguments about $400k and left the station.