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The Mating Crisis Among Educated Women

112 points by Abtin88 9y ago

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
vowelless 9y ago
> They end up being forced to compete for the limited pool of educated men not just with their more numerous educated rivals, but also with less educated women whom men find desirable on other dimensions. Considering that we want to eliminate any gaps between the genders, why are educated women limited to educated men of their own ages? Why not increase the pool like men do: go for more younger, possibly less educated men (as the article implies for men)? > As men age, they desire women who are increasingly younger than they are. Intelligent, educated women may go for a less accomplished partner for a casual fling, but for a committed partner they typically want mates their own age or a few years older, and at least as educated and career-driven. If men can increase their pool size, why not women?
- lotsofpulp 9y ago
  Because biology? Most women prefer a stronger (and taller) man, not just in the physical sense. Also, for status in social circles.
- Santosh83 9y ago
  That's precisely behind the purported problem outlined in the article. Women don't, on average, prefer younger or less educated/earning men as the other way around. As always with social problems, no easy solution is in sight.
  - jabretti 9y ago
    Women tend to desire men who are older, richer and more educated. Men tend to desire women who are young, hot, and of good character. Men can't always get what they want, either, but nobody writes articles about how that's a crisis.
    - sjg007 9y ago
      Realistically you only get 2 of those traits in my opinion.
    - greglindahl 9y ago
      I see "men can't always get what they want either" mentioned in articles all the time.
- Ensorceled 9y ago
  This is addressed in the article: "Mating psychology may not be that malleable." i.e. Biology.
  - Anderkent 9y ago
    Of course that's not necessarily a bad state. Sociology is fixed, biology is mutable - http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/10/society-is-fixed-biology-is-mutable/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/10/society-is-fixed-biolog...
  - mannykannot 9y ago
    Biological explanations for social phenomena are generally frowned upon these days, and they certainly have a poor track record, historically.
    - ghostcluster 9y ago
      Both mating and sexual selection are fundamentally biological issues. > they certainly have a poor track record, historically Evolution: a biological explanation for a social phenomena with a poor track record, historically
    - dwaltrip 9y ago
      Is mate selection primarily a social phenomenon?
    - SamReidHughes 9y ago
      Um, no? Biological explanations work great. Want to explain the social phenomenon of people going home every night? It's biology: they have to sleep. Want to explain why people smoke? They're addicted. Want to explain why grown up adoptees behave more like their biological parents than their adoptive parents? Genetics.
      - mannykannot 9y ago
        I probably should have put 'explanations' in quotes, because I was thinking of the bogus 'biological' just-so stories that have frequently been advanced in the past to 'explain' why women should not or can not do this or that, and the alleged inferiority of various ethnic groups. It is somewhat moot, however, as my comment is mostly about contemporary mores regarding the use of biological explanations (or 'explanations'), though perhaps I was not explicit enough. I don't know enough to have a definite opinion as to whether, or to what extent, biological explanations apply in this case.
- jgh 9y ago
  That's probably what'll end up happening. Right now people have a hard time imagining it because we've been living in a patriarchal society, but I'm willing to bet that in a generation or two there will be fewer hangups about house husbands.
- alva 9y ago
  > If men can increase their pool size, why not women? Women can, it is just they don't want to due to what the majority express as desirable characteristics. It is a sad state of affairs that make both men and women worse off. I know several women in their mid-thirties who adamantly refuse to consider long term partnership with perceived low status males (along lines of status, power, wealth and education). The main issue they seem to run into is this. The small pool of highly educated, high status and wealthy men are essentially at the top of the sexual marketplace. Considering the purchasing power (excuse the term, but it makes sense) these men have, they tend to optimise for traits many men find desirable. Finding an "equal" man in your mid-thirties as a women is very hard. Funnily enough, polygamy in societies partly resolves this distribution problem for women. The problems it causes amongst a perpetually single mass of men are catastrophic however.
  - xor1 9y ago
    >Finding an "equal" man in your mid-thirties as a women is very hard. Finding an "equal" woman in your mid-thirties as a man who doesn't want to date down in terms of education, status, wealth, or mental health is just as difficult.
    - Anderkent 9y ago
      Of course. But most - obvsly overlapping bell curves, but on the median clear difference - men don't care about that as much.
    - tpolzer 9y ago
      So just don't move "up", improve your dating life?
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
    - sjg007 9y ago
      It actually should be easier. Since there are more women at this level then men.
- Alex3917 9y ago
  > Why not increase the pool like men do: go for more younger, possibly less educated men (as the article implies for men)? Because it takes women thousands of times longer to produce a child than men. It's just game theory. Keep in mind also that the average woman doesn't have any magical ability to figure out which men will be successful in advance, otherwise all the top venture capitalists, producers, publishers, etc. would be women.
- steanne 9y ago
  that won't expand the pool as much as you think. it widens it on the education variable, but narrowers it to men who aren't threatened by women who are more educated (and possibly higher-paid) than they are.
  - xor1 9y ago
    >men who aren't threatened by women who are more educated (and possibly higher-paid) than they are Do these people actually exist anymore? What kind of man is really going to pass on an otherwise suitable partner just because she's more educated and makes more money than him? I can't imagine a single person I know thinking something along the lines of "yeah, she's great, but she makes more money than me, it won't work". 3 of my friends make more than their boyfriends. 2 of my friends make less than their girlfriends/wives. I sure wouldn't mind.
    - xedrac 9y ago
      If I'm being honest, this would bother me at some level. Certainly not enough to pass up the opportunity, but somehow I would feel less of a man. I'm sure I would get over it quickly enough, or maybe use it as motivation to become equally educated. I do think it's great that there are so many highly educated women.
      - xor1 9y ago
        I have only dated women smarter/richer than me so far, and yes, it is very motivating.
    - amag 9y ago
      My wife has at times earned more than me but that's never felt threatening. After all, I benefit from her increased income. In fact I would love it if she'd earn enough for me to be a stay home dad without us needing to cut expenses too much.
      - zaarn 9y ago
        That's more of an anecdote than any real data.
- eighthnate 9y ago
  > Considering that we want to eliminate any gaps between the genders, why are educated women limited to educated men of their own ages? Biologically and evolutionarily speaking, men want younger and more fertile women to mate with. Women want established males ( their age or older ) to mate with. > Why not increase the pool like men do: go for more younger, possibly less educated men (as the article implies for men)? As I stated earlier because men want younger women and women want established males. http://static5.businessinsider.com/image/54455482eab8ea361710fecc-800-/dataclysm_35.jpg http://static5.businessinsider.com/image/54455482eab8ea36171... http://www.businessinsider.com/dataclysm-shows-men-are-attracted-to-women-in-their-20s-2014-10 http://www.businessinsider.com/dataclysm-shows-men-are-attra...
  - Arete3141 9y ago
    1. Many women want the option to stay home and raise their own children, at least for a few years. If a woman marries an otherwise-wonderful man who earns half her salary, she will not be able to easily stay home with her own child while maintaining their former standard of living. So there are some logistical concerns here that just aren't there for men. Perhaps in a country with a lot of paid maternity leave, these issues would not be as pronounced. 2. I have trouble with the blanket statement that women "want established males" "biologically and evolutionarily speaking." We live in a society. Peoples' behavior in a society is not some mystery that can only be deciphered by looking at chimpanzees. Our society has some very messed up rules about who gets to have the most power. People respond to and strategize around their current reality. If that reality were to change -- like, if we had free childcare or 4 years paid maternity leave, or some other radical shift -- many of these calculations would "magically" fall away.
    - taejo 9y ago
      > Many women want the option to stay home and raise their own children, at least for a few years. > So there are some logistical concerns here that just aren't there for men. It's true that more women want this than men, certainly in the U.S., but you can't say the concerns "just aren't there for men" -- already in this thread there are men saying they want to be stay-at-home dads.
- dgudkov 9y ago
  Because women typically have different mating strategy -- hypergamy, which goal is to decrease the mating pool size as much as possible down to the best candidate. Men's mating strategy is polygamy which is increasing the pool size as much as possible. In other words most women would prefer to stay alone forever rather than marry a man who they consider suboptimal. Add to the equation the "mating standards" that are overblown by Hollywood and social media and the picture of dating market becomes even darker. I believe this exact mechanism (also aggravated by social media) is responsible for the decline of fertility rate below the reproduction level in countries with well educated population.
- nradov 9y ago
  Indeed. This is an imaginary crisis invented by people who just want to whine instead of finding solutions for themselves. Travel and online dating are (relatively) cheap. If someone can't find an educated husband in Manhattan then take a trip to Shenzhen or Houston or wherever.
  - lovich 9y ago
    Traveling across the world ain't cheap. Maybe to you but not to the majority of people. When you add on the fact that your have to make multiple trips to meet people, as it's unlikely that you will meet your future spouse on the first trip you make to another area, most people will only be dating within their local area just as an economic necessity
  - watwut 9y ago
    The crisis, according to male psychologue, is that women end up ok being single and don't care about finding partner. Also, women being more competitive for existing males by having sex faster is some kind of problem. Which is, according to him, something entirely different then dudes being single in Sillicon Valley where is surplus of males. Because, again, according to him, these dudes can find one night stands and care more about those anyway and thus everything is cool there.
- Balgair 9y ago
  In addition to 'A+' women not wanting to marry/date 'C-' men, those same men seem to be adverse to dating those women. The asymmetry in income and societal 'respect' is often too much for the ego. Her family may see him as 'below' her, her friends think she can do 'better', etc. The man then decides to not pursue the woman to begin with. Think Aladdin, but without Robin Williams. This leaves the women in an even smaller dating pool. But I think this is unlikely. In general, women want a 'real man', which is often not the opposite of a woman, but the opposite of a 'boy'. What 'real man' is does vary widely from culture, place, and decade. However, a 'real' man does have some similar base ideals across time and space. They are the 3 P's: Protector, Provider, Procreater. A 'real' man must have all 3, or be lacking in 1 but make up for it in the other 2. Missing 2 of the P's is almost certainly a DQ. For a very long and in-depth discussion, start here: https://www.artofmanliness.com/2014/03/31/the-3-ps-of-manhood-a-review/ https://www.artofmanliness.com/2014/03/31/the-3-ps-of-manhoo... These 'A+' women have a high standard for Protector and Provider, as well they should for the amount of effort they put in. How men can fix this is to excel in either the Protector or the Provider category. As the Provider one seems to be much harder, then the women should look for a mate that excels in the Protector category. In essence, go find lumberjacks/cops/firefighters/soldiers/etc.
Santosh83 9y ago
Hardly a crisis...
- iaw 9y ago
  Care to explain why you feel that way? From your statement I hope that you're extremely enlightened on the topic or have first hand experience being an educated woman trying to date.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - xor1 9y ago
    No one is entitled to being in a relationship. No one is entitled to having a partner.
    - Anderkent 9y ago
      And that's relevant how? Entitled or not, we generally think that if would be better if people who want relationships were in relationships.
      - xor1 9y ago
        >Entitled or not, we generally think that if would be better if people who want relationships were in relationships. In a perfect world, sure. Sadly, we are discussing reality here.
    - Oxitendwe 9y ago
      Having a lot of single childless people is not good for society.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        deleted 9y ago
lmcnish14 9y ago
Why is the onus of lowering their standards being pushed on educated women? One of the issues the author states is that men increasingly go for younger women instead of ones their own age. Why do we value youth and beauty instead of education and accomplishments?
- tzahola 9y ago
  >Why do we value youth and beauty instead of education and accomplishments? I for one, do value these traits. If I were to choose between two equally looking girls, I would choose the smarter. On the other hand, I have a strict lower bound for appearance, and no amount of education or accomplishment can compensate for being under that threshold. We can still talk about programming though!
- psergeant 9y ago
  The onerous onus to find the educated.
- iaw 9y ago
  > Why is the onerous of lowering their standards being pushed on educated women? A single person looking to find a partner is in essence selling something: themselves. When selling anything it's important to consider the target market. If the market isn't interested in what someone is selling there's a few options: 1) Change the product 2) Find a different market Changing the behavior of the market is not an option because, unless it's a really really desirable product, the market isn't likely to budge. So educated women that the article is referring could decide to not lower their standards but the risk they face is being alone.
- empath75 9y ago
  Both sides are lowering standards along different dimensions. Assuming the perfect mate is someone who is young, attractive, educated and accomplished -- men choose the young and attractive and women choose 'educated and accomplished'.
- hasenj 9y ago
  eh, this is like an obese man complaining that thin women don't want to date him, then when people point out the obvious, he complains why is the onus being pushed on him instead of on the thin women who don't find him attractive.
mnm1 9y ago
Better tools to connect women and men could have a major impact and increase the chances that couples connect with each other. Tinder and other dating sites are absolute shit (plenty of literature on their problems for both men and women out there) and in person interactions are becoming more rare. Improving these tools might help some of the people who would otherwise not connect or find suitable mates to do so, though it can only address the problem partially.
- kawera 9y ago
  You mean more tools in the same vein as meetup.com?
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 9y ago
  The problem isn't the tools, the problem is human nature. The way we select mates just doesn't work the way we tell ourselves it does, and the reality is that vary many people will never be compatible with anyone. In the past, and in other cultures, this is solved by significant social pressure forcing people together.
- nradov 9y ago
  It's not technically hard to build a dating site/app. If you have an idea for a better tool then go ahead and build it. Numerous entrepreneurs have already succeeded in this space. IAC is happy to buy up any dating site that establishes a large user base.
- tomp 9y ago
  Why do you think "connecting" would help? It's possible, likely even, that it would further exacerbate the problem, allowing more choice for those who want it (men), and allowing all those who are choosy (women) to aim for the top. Similar to the media - we thought that making the world more connected would make it better, but so far all we've got is more sensationalism, fake news, and cat videos. Most people ignore the "leaks".
sendaikiri 9y ago
Complete and utter nonsense. But you should know where this bullshit comes from.
- erikj 9y ago
  I don't know, where?
jimmywanger 9y ago
I'm not trying to incite a flamewar here, and this will probably be downvoted to death. Well, the argument here should be: Men don't find education and accomplishment as attractive as women do - they find youth and beauty important also. Therefore, in order to attract a mate, logically women should try to attract a mate when they're younger, and try to improve the way they look. They should not be trying to get more educated or accomplish more in their careers. They can of course do whatever they want, but I have very little sympathy for people who recognize how reality is and don't try to act in ways that will optimize the probability of the outcome they want.
- montaguy 9y ago
  This
- xor1 9y ago
  >They can of course do whatever they want, but I have very little sympathy for people who recognize how reality is and don't try to act in ways that will optimize the probability of the outcome they want. Yep. I recognized that I was ugly, and I thought that this was the primary obstacle when it came to dating. I fixed that with surgery, and I was right.
  - whatshisface 9y ago
    It's only a matter of time before we can pay CBT psychotherapists to give us good senses of humor and easy-to-be-around personalities. We're fast converging on a future where IQ and inherited wealth will be the only two fundamental positive qualities.
    - xor1 9y ago
      >We're fast converging on a future where IQ and inherited wealth will be the only two fundamental positive qualities. Genome editing might take care of IQ.
      - deleted 9y ago
indescions_2017 9y ago
Not the usual sort of discussion I expect to see on Edge but welcome nonetheless. Fertility services, reproductive tech is very hot right now. With women who heed the countdown of their biological clocks electing to freeze their eggs at $50K, it could also be considered a growth sector. So why not provide the spectrum of services a single professional would need to raise a family. From quality genetically screened gamete seed banks. Making it as easy to order 23 chromosomes as you would pick out a new laptop on Newegg. To generous paid maternity care and leave. Nanny, lactation consulting, on-call pediatrics, daycare. As well as transportation, grocery delivery, nursery installation and much more. Of course all of this is readily available via bespoke services for those that can afford it. So how to we extend all the necessary services to a middle class single professional woman? If it truly is a crisis that birth rates are falling in the developed world. And restricted immigration results in further population skew. Then taxpayers must begin the debate on subsidizing reproductive and childcare services. Because traditional "nudge" messaging and policy seems to neglect where organic demand lies: having children and career, without the necessity or social norm of marriage.
- Santosh83 9y ago
  You assume single parent upbringing is optimal? Why are 1. the world's population (as opposed to 'developed world's' population), and 2., the best for the child, not considered?
  - zanny 9y ago
    Because capitalism. If single wealthy women want children for... god knows what reason, there are enough studies to show that children need their parents throughout their childhoods to develop optimally, and having one or even worse both of them sequestered away in careers while they grow up in daycare is harmful. But if single wealthy women want children they will get them, they have the financial resources to push the economy into making it happen one way or another. You don't fight economics with morals postmortem.
- Oxitendwe 9y ago
  You're supposed to raise your own children. This is inconsistent with having virtually every job an "educated" person can have.
nserrino 9y ago
I've noticed the preferences among my male and female friends diverging over time. In college, everyone seemed to want the same thing -- a partner that was both successful and attractive. But now as we make it to our late twenties, I noticed that they "settle" differently. My female friends increasingly prefer an older guy with a great career and my male friends a younger woman who is less accomplished than they were at their age. They both still say they want the same thing -- and I totally buy it -- but it is hard to find the perfect person so sacrifices tend to be made. I have definitely noticed the happiest people I know, in terms of romance, found their life partner in college.
- xor1 9y ago
  >I have definitely noticed the happiest people I know, in terms of romance, found their life partner in college. Definitely. I am almost 30, and I started dating extremely late (26). I'm happy with who I'm with right now, but I envy people who met their significant others in their teens or early 20s. They were able to grow together throughout early adulthood. I had to go through it all alone. I will do everything possible to make it so that my kids don't have to experience the same thing.
  - damagednoob 9y ago
    > They were able to grow together throughout early adulthood. That's a double-edged sword. Sometimes people grow apart.
    - xor1 9y ago
      True, but better to have loved and lost, right?
      - Yetanfou 9y ago
        That depends on what the alternative was. For those who have been pining after love but did not find any until later 'having loved and lost' might be a desirable alternative. For those who've been busy with other things - study, research, discovery, what have you - and never really thought about finding themselves a partner 'having loved and lost' would be a net-negative.
jacobkg 9y ago
This problem is very evident amongst single female friends who are just out of medical residency. The ones that are married mostly met their spouses in undergrad but the others are having a lot of trouble finding men of similar education level.
- xor1 9y ago
  Hope they're willing to settle for someone with nothing more than a Bachelor's who still outearns them 2:1, after accounting for time spent in school instead of working and debt.
- rcpt 9y ago
  My wife is applying for residency now and it's become clear to me that American medical education just isn't fit for human consumption in general. I'm not at all surprised that your friends are having trouble with dating.
eighthnate 9y ago
Anyone else think this article was going to be about chess? Man HN has my mind so warped I thought this article was going to be about women and chess.
- xedrac 9y ago
  Seems to fit. "Unable to secure the smothered mate, she had to settle for the backrank mate."
throwawayXYZZ 9y ago
In Silicon Valley it has become too risky to date professional women. Everyone is a “Founder”, and everyone is an “Angel Investor”. Even flirting can end your career.
niuzeta 9y ago
Is this a problem that needs to be solved, though? I see a dichotomy here. On one hand, we would like to have more women in the "educated" and therefore, high-income workforce. This, in turn, causes imbalance in the dating market and may force the women in the high-income bracket to make a concession(by lowering their standards, etc). On the other, we can go back to the model where men dominate the high-income workforce and many women can "marry up" when they're younger. I would pick the former than the latter any day. Equality of opportunity trumps the equality of results in my world. Also, beyond a certain point, money just doesn't make the other person more attractive. I would rather date a caring jobless younger woman than an abusive doctor with several degrees. I make enough to pursue my dreams and leisures. Articles like this actually seem very insensitive for the men of my situation(previously poor, now making comfortably but didn't date much in 20s), as it purports that I, as a man in dating market, is worth as much as the amount of money I make. I hope that's not case for most people. Think about it. This is a "crisis" because there aren't high-earning men that these high-earning women would allow themselves to date? It doesn't necessarily trigger schadenfreude to me, if not a profound sadness due to a nature of the "problem". As a single man of early thirties, this sort of article horrifies and saddens me. You need to find your own happiness and maybe it shouldn't depend on other people. Jon Birger's Date-onomics(2015) discusses this phenomenon[1] pretty astutely, if you're interested in reading further data. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Date-onomics-Dating-Became-Lopsided-Numbers/dp/076118208X https://www.amazon.com/Date-onomics-Dating-Became-Lopsided-N...
- ghostcluster 9y ago
  It's one of the drivers causing all developed countries to have a fertility rate below the replacement rate. Japan's population, which is shrinking, worries about an aging majority without a base of young healthy workers who can support the economy and social programs. They are trying to mend this in the medium term by encouraging more women into the workforce, but, as we see from this article, that may have the unintended consequence of exacerbating the fertility crisis even further.
  - MarkMc 9y ago
    That's a problem for Japan, but not rich western countries which can simply accept more immigration.
spectrestatus 9y ago
what. in the fuck. are y'all rambling on about..
perilunar 9y ago
I'm impressed HN — not a single mention yet of hypergamy, SMV or Red Pill theory! (and now I've gone and ruined it)
- gspetr 9y ago
  Always keep Law 38 in mind.
lackbeard 9y ago
> But for accomplished women who successfully traverse the waters of a mating pool unfairly stacked against them, mating triumph at the individual level typically takes precedence over loftier goals of reducing societal-level inequality when the two come into conflict. It's wrong to characterize the pool as "unfairly" stacked against them; they could choose to date men with lower incomes or less education.
- gozur88 9y ago
  Yeah, it's assortive mating. It's not that the mating pool is stacked against them - it's that their self assessment of their own "rank" is too high. They assume men want in a woman what women want in a man, and for the most part men don't care about the (potential) wife's career.
  - tomp 9y ago
    > for the most part men don't care about the (potential) wife's career. There might even be an inverse correlation - the more successful the man is (hence the more money he earns, and the more hours he works), the more he would prefer his partner to take the lion's share of childcare and house-making, and also be able to pay for it. Ideally, of course, neither parent would have to work, but that's even more unrealistic for most of the population.
zzzzzzzza 9y ago
My experience trying to date women in physics and comp sci says this is mostly a crisis amongst non stem women.
- whyever 9y ago
  Of course, because in STEM it's the opposite: an oversupply of (educated) men.
vfulco 9y ago
You mean it is ok to be biologically inspired for your mating choices? Who knew?
Mz 9y ago
I wonder if it is any different in other countries with better health coverage and more family friendly policies.
lostgame 9y ago
Who says women have to date men?
- Chris2048 9y ago
  In biology, mating (or mateing in British English) is the pairing of either opposite-sex or hermaphroditic organisms, usually for the purposes of sexual reproduction -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mating https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mating
  - throwaway9ac420 9y ago
    No, it's the same in British English, or as we call it, English.
    - Chris2048 9y ago
      It's Wikipedia makes the claim, not I :-)
htrp 9y ago
Needs citations
RhysU 9y ago
Interestingly no discussion of what must be a similar crisis among less-educated men.
- hjkl4life 9y ago
  That would mean trying to understand and optimize for men's reproductive strategy. As far as I can tell, the western world seems mostly concerned with female reproductive strategy.
squozzer 9y ago
Where I think this will go is pretty easy, as it happens already among the less-educated. Women will select a mate based more on looks than money, have a kid or two, then divorce him (aka "starter marriages".) Child support from the male will probably not matter for women who make enough money, but might still be a useful tool to keep the ex-hubby in line. This is probably a simpler, if more cynical, means than freezing ova for the "perfect" man to fertilize. And while men at the tippy-top might take a pass on divorcees with kids, for most men beyond a certain age, it's a fact of life, and frankly, we have decades of cultural brain-washing that makes such attitudes seem sexist.

112 points by Abtin88 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

> They end up being forced to compete for the limited pool of educated men not just with their more numerous educated rivals, but also with less educated women whom men find desirable on other dimensions. Considering that we want to eliminate any gaps between the genders, why are educated women limited to educated men of their own ages? Why not increase the pool like men do: go for more younger, possibly less educated men (as the article implies for men)? > As men age, they desire women who are increasingly younger than they are. Intelligent, educated women may go for a less accomplished partner for a casual fling, but for a committed partner they typically want mates their own age or a few years older, and at least as educated and career-driven. If men can increase their pool size, why not women?

lotsofpulp 9y ago
Because biology? Most women prefer a stronger (and taller) man, not just in the physical sense. Also, for status in social circles.
Santosh83 9y ago
That's precisely behind the purported problem outlined in the article. Women don't, on average, prefer younger or less educated/earning men as the other way around. As always with social problems, no easy solution is in sight.
- jabretti 9y ago
  Women tend to desire men who are older, richer and more educated. Men tend to desire women who are young, hot, and of good character. Men can't always get what they want, either, but nobody writes articles about how that's a crisis.
  - sjg007 9y ago
    Realistically you only get 2 of those traits in my opinion.
  - greglindahl 9y ago
    I see "men can't always get what they want either" mentioned in articles all the time.
Ensorceled 9y ago
This is addressed in the article: "Mating psychology may not be that malleable." i.e. Biology.
- Anderkent 9y ago
  Of course that's not necessarily a bad state. Sociology is fixed, biology is mutable - http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/10/society-is-fixed-biology-is-mutable/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/10/society-is-fixed-biolog...
- mannykannot 9y ago
  Biological explanations for social phenomena are generally frowned upon these days, and they certainly have a poor track record, historically.
  - ghostcluster 9y ago
    Both mating and sexual selection are fundamentally biological issues. > they certainly have a poor track record, historically Evolution: a biological explanation for a social phenomena with a poor track record, historically
  - dwaltrip 9y ago
    Is mate selection primarily a social phenomenon?
  - SamReidHughes 9y ago
    Um, no? Biological explanations work great. Want to explain the social phenomenon of people going home every night? It's biology: they have to sleep. Want to explain why people smoke? They're addicted. Want to explain why grown up adoptees behave more like their biological parents than their adoptive parents? Genetics.
    - mannykannot 9y ago
      I probably should have put 'explanations' in quotes, because I was thinking of the bogus 'biological' just-so stories that have frequently been advanced in the past to 'explain' why women should not or can not do this or that, and the alleged inferiority of various ethnic groups. It is somewhat moot, however, as my comment is mostly about contemporary mores regarding the use of biological explanations (or 'explanations'), though perhaps I was not explicit enough. I don't know enough to have a definite opinion as to whether, or to what extent, biological explanations apply in this case.
jgh 9y ago
That's probably what'll end up happening. Right now people have a hard time imagining it because we've been living in a patriarchal society, but I'm willing to bet that in a generation or two there will be fewer hangups about house husbands.
alva 9y ago
> If men can increase their pool size, why not women? Women can, it is just they don't want to due to what the majority express as desirable characteristics. It is a sad state of affairs that make both men and women worse off. I know several women in their mid-thirties who adamantly refuse to consider long term partnership with perceived low status males (along lines of status, power, wealth and education). The main issue they seem to run into is this. The small pool of highly educated, high status and wealthy men are essentially at the top of the sexual marketplace. Considering the purchasing power (excuse the term, but it makes sense) these men have, they tend to optimise for traits many men find desirable. Finding an "equal" man in your mid-thirties as a women is very hard. Funnily enough, polygamy in societies partly resolves this distribution problem for women. The problems it causes amongst a perpetually single mass of men are catastrophic however.
- xor1 9y ago
  >Finding an "equal" man in your mid-thirties as a women is very hard. Finding an "equal" woman in your mid-thirties as a man who doesn't want to date down in terms of education, status, wealth, or mental health is just as difficult.
  - Anderkent 9y ago
    Of course. But most - obvsly overlapping bell curves, but on the median clear difference - men don't care about that as much.
  - tpolzer 9y ago
    So just don't move "up", improve your dating life?
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - sjg007 9y ago
    It actually should be easier. Since there are more women at this level then men.
Alex3917 9y ago
> Why not increase the pool like men do: go for more younger, possibly less educated men (as the article implies for men)? Because it takes women thousands of times longer to produce a child than men. It's just game theory. Keep in mind also that the average woman doesn't have any magical ability to figure out which men will be successful in advance, otherwise all the top venture capitalists, producers, publishers, etc. would be women.
steanne 9y ago
that won't expand the pool as much as you think. it widens it on the education variable, but narrowers it to men who aren't threatened by women who are more educated (and possibly higher-paid) than they are.
- xor1 9y ago
  >men who aren't threatened by women who are more educated (and possibly higher-paid) than they are Do these people actually exist anymore? What kind of man is really going to pass on an otherwise suitable partner just because she's more educated and makes more money than him? I can't imagine a single person I know thinking something along the lines of "yeah, she's great, but she makes more money than me, it won't work". 3 of my friends make more than their boyfriends. 2 of my friends make less than their girlfriends/wives. I sure wouldn't mind.
  - xedrac 9y ago
    If I'm being honest, this would bother me at some level. Certainly not enough to pass up the opportunity, but somehow I would feel less of a man. I'm sure I would get over it quickly enough, or maybe use it as motivation to become equally educated. I do think it's great that there are so many highly educated women.
    - xor1 9y ago
      I have only dated women smarter/richer than me so far, and yes, it is very motivating.
  - amag 9y ago
    My wife has at times earned more than me but that's never felt threatening. After all, I benefit from her increased income. In fact I would love it if she'd earn enough for me to be a stay home dad without us needing to cut expenses too much.
    - zaarn 9y ago
      That's more of an anecdote than any real data.
eighthnate 9y ago
> Considering that we want to eliminate any gaps between the genders, why are educated women limited to educated men of their own ages? Biologically and evolutionarily speaking, men want younger and more fertile women to mate with. Women want established males ( their age or older ) to mate with. > Why not increase the pool like men do: go for more younger, possibly less educated men (as the article implies for men)? As I stated earlier because men want younger women and women want established males. http://static5.businessinsider.com/image/54455482eab8ea361710fecc-800-/dataclysm_35.jpg http://static5.businessinsider.com/image/54455482eab8ea36171... http://www.businessinsider.com/dataclysm-shows-men-are-attracted-to-women-in-their-20s-2014-10 http://www.businessinsider.com/dataclysm-shows-men-are-attra...
- Arete3141 9y ago
  1. Many women want the option to stay home and raise their own children, at least for a few years. If a woman marries an otherwise-wonderful man who earns half her salary, she will not be able to easily stay home with her own child while maintaining their former standard of living. So there are some logistical concerns here that just aren't there for men. Perhaps in a country with a lot of paid maternity leave, these issues would not be as pronounced. 2. I have trouble with the blanket statement that women "want established males" "biologically and evolutionarily speaking." We live in a society. Peoples' behavior in a society is not some mystery that can only be deciphered by looking at chimpanzees. Our society has some very messed up rules about who gets to have the most power. People respond to and strategize around their current reality. If that reality were to change -- like, if we had free childcare or 4 years paid maternity leave, or some other radical shift -- many of these calculations would "magically" fall away.
  - taejo 9y ago
    > Many women want the option to stay home and raise their own children, at least for a few years. > So there are some logistical concerns here that just aren't there for men. It's true that more women want this than men, certainly in the U.S., but you can't say the concerns "just aren't there for men" -- already in this thread there are men saying they want to be stay-at-home dads.
dgudkov 9y ago
Because women typically have different mating strategy -- hypergamy, which goal is to decrease the mating pool size as much as possible down to the best candidate. Men's mating strategy is polygamy which is increasing the pool size as much as possible. In other words most women would prefer to stay alone forever rather than marry a man who they consider suboptimal. Add to the equation the "mating standards" that are overblown by Hollywood and social media and the picture of dating market becomes even darker. I believe this exact mechanism (also aggravated by social media) is responsible for the decline of fertility rate below the reproduction level in countries with well educated population.
nradov 9y ago
Indeed. This is an imaginary crisis invented by people who just want to whine instead of finding solutions for themselves. Travel and online dating are (relatively) cheap. If someone can't find an educated husband in Manhattan then take a trip to Shenzhen or Houston or wherever.
- lovich 9y ago
  Traveling across the world ain't cheap. Maybe to you but not to the majority of people. When you add on the fact that your have to make multiple trips to meet people, as it's unlikely that you will meet your future spouse on the first trip you make to another area, most people will only be dating within their local area just as an economic necessity
- watwut 9y ago
  The crisis, according to male psychologue, is that women end up ok being single and don't care about finding partner. Also, women being more competitive for existing males by having sex faster is some kind of problem. Which is, according to him, something entirely different then dudes being single in Sillicon Valley where is surplus of males. Because, again, according to him, these dudes can find one night stands and care more about those anyway and thus everything is cool there.
Balgair 9y ago
In addition to 'A+' women not wanting to marry/date 'C-' men, those same men seem to be adverse to dating those women. The asymmetry in income and societal 'respect' is often too much for the ego. Her family may see him as 'below' her, her friends think she can do 'better', etc. The man then decides to not pursue the woman to begin with. Think Aladdin, but without Robin Williams. This leaves the women in an even smaller dating pool. But I think this is unlikely. In general, women want a 'real man', which is often not the opposite of a woman, but the opposite of a 'boy'. What 'real man' is does vary widely from culture, place, and decade. However, a 'real' man does have some similar base ideals across time and space. They are the 3 P's: Protector, Provider, Procreater. A 'real' man must have all 3, or be lacking in 1 but make up for it in the other 2. Missing 2 of the P's is almost certainly a DQ. For a very long and in-depth discussion, start here: https://www.artofmanliness.com/2014/03/31/the-3-ps-of-manhood-a-review/ https://www.artofmanliness.com/2014/03/31/the-3-ps-of-manhoo... These 'A+' women have a high standard for Protector and Provider, as well they should for the amount of effort they put in. How men can fix this is to excel in either the Protector or the Provider category. As the Provider one seems to be much harder, then the women should look for a mate that excels in the Protector category. In essence, go find lumberjacks/cops/firefighters/soldiers/etc.

Santosh83 9y ago

Hardly a crisis...

iaw 9y ago
Care to explain why you feel that way? From your statement I hope that you're extremely enlightened on the topic or have first hand experience being an educated woman trying to date.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- xor1 9y ago
  No one is entitled to being in a relationship. No one is entitled to having a partner.
  - Anderkent 9y ago
    And that's relevant how? Entitled or not, we generally think that if would be better if people who want relationships were in relationships.
    - xor1 9y ago
      >Entitled or not, we generally think that if would be better if people who want relationships were in relationships. In a perfect world, sure. Sadly, we are discussing reality here.
  - Oxitendwe 9y ago
    Having a lot of single childless people is not good for society.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
      - deleted 9y ago

lmcnish14 9y ago

Why is the onus of lowering their standards being pushed on educated women? One of the issues the author states is that men increasingly go for younger women instead of ones their own age. Why do we value youth and beauty instead of education and accomplishments?

tzahola 9y ago
>Why do we value youth and beauty instead of education and accomplishments? I for one, do value these traits. If I were to choose between two equally looking girls, I would choose the smarter. On the other hand, I have a strict lower bound for appearance, and no amount of education or accomplishment can compensate for being under that threshold. We can still talk about programming though!
psergeant 9y ago
The onerous onus to find the educated.
iaw 9y ago
> Why is the onerous of lowering their standards being pushed on educated women? A single person looking to find a partner is in essence selling something: themselves. When selling anything it's important to consider the target market. If the market isn't interested in what someone is selling there's a few options: 1) Change the product 2) Find a different market Changing the behavior of the market is not an option because, unless it's a really really desirable product, the market isn't likely to budge. So educated women that the article is referring could decide to not lower their standards but the risk they face is being alone.
empath75 9y ago
Both sides are lowering standards along different dimensions. Assuming the perfect mate is someone who is young, attractive, educated and accomplished -- men choose the young and attractive and women choose 'educated and accomplished'.
hasenj 9y ago
eh, this is like an obese man complaining that thin women don't want to date him, then when people point out the obvious, he complains why is the onus being pushed on him instead of on the thin women who don't find him attractive.

mnm1 9y ago

Better tools to connect women and men could have a major impact and increase the chances that couples connect with each other. Tinder and other dating sites are absolute shit (plenty of literature on their problems for both men and women out there) and in person interactions are becoming more rare. Improving these tools might help some of the people who would otherwise not connect or find suitable mates to do so, though it can only address the problem partially.

kawera 9y ago
You mean more tools in the same vein as meetup.com?
AnIdiotOnTheNet 9y ago
The problem isn't the tools, the problem is human nature. The way we select mates just doesn't work the way we tell ourselves it does, and the reality is that vary many people will never be compatible with anyone. In the past, and in other cultures, this is solved by significant social pressure forcing people together.
nradov 9y ago
It's not technically hard to build a dating site/app. If you have an idea for a better tool then go ahead and build it. Numerous entrepreneurs have already succeeded in this space. IAC is happy to buy up any dating site that establishes a large user base.
tomp 9y ago
Why do you think "connecting" would help? It's possible, likely even, that it would further exacerbate the problem, allowing more choice for those who want it (men), and allowing all those who are choosy (women) to aim for the top. Similar to the media - we thought that making the world more connected would make it better, but so far all we've got is more sensationalism, fake news, and cat videos. Most people ignore the "leaks".

sendaikiri 9y ago

Complete and utter nonsense. But you should know where this bullshit comes from.

erikj 9y ago
I don't know, where?

jimmywanger 9y ago

I'm not trying to incite a flamewar here, and this will probably be downvoted to death. Well, the argument here should be: Men don't find education and accomplishment as attractive as women do - they find youth and beauty important also. Therefore, in order to attract a mate, logically women should try to attract a mate when they're younger, and try to improve the way they look. They should not be trying to get more educated or accomplish more in their careers. They can of course do whatever they want, but I have very little sympathy for people who recognize how reality is and don't try to act in ways that will optimize the probability of the outcome they want.

montaguy 9y ago
This
xor1 9y ago
>They can of course do whatever they want, but I have very little sympathy for people who recognize how reality is and don't try to act in ways that will optimize the probability of the outcome they want. Yep. I recognized that I was ugly, and I thought that this was the primary obstacle when it came to dating. I fixed that with surgery, and I was right.
- whatshisface 9y ago
  It's only a matter of time before we can pay CBT psychotherapists to give us good senses of humor and easy-to-be-around personalities. We're fast converging on a future where IQ and inherited wealth will be the only two fundamental positive qualities.
  - xor1 9y ago
    >We're fast converging on a future where IQ and inherited wealth will be the only two fundamental positive qualities. Genome editing might take care of IQ.
    - deleted 9y ago

indescions_2017 9y ago

Not the usual sort of discussion I expect to see on Edge but welcome nonetheless. Fertility services, reproductive tech is very hot right now. With women who heed the countdown of their biological clocks electing to freeze their eggs at $50K, it could also be considered a growth sector. So why not provide the spectrum of services a single professional would need to raise a family. From quality genetically screened gamete seed banks. Making it as easy to order 23 chromosomes as you would pick out a new laptop on Newegg. To generous paid maternity care and leave. Nanny, lactation consulting, on-call pediatrics, daycare. As well as transportation, grocery delivery, nursery installation and much more. Of course all of this is readily available via bespoke services for those that can afford it. So how to we extend all the necessary services to a middle class single professional woman? If it truly is a crisis that birth rates are falling in the developed world. And restricted immigration results in further population skew. Then taxpayers must begin the debate on subsidizing reproductive and childcare services. Because traditional "nudge" messaging and policy seems to neglect where organic demand lies: having children and career, without the necessity or social norm of marriage.

Santosh83 9y ago
You assume single parent upbringing is optimal? Why are 1. the world's population (as opposed to 'developed world's' population), and 2., the best for the child, not considered?
- zanny 9y ago
  Because capitalism. If single wealthy women want children for... god knows what reason, there are enough studies to show that children need their parents throughout their childhoods to develop optimally, and having one or even worse both of them sequestered away in careers while they grow up in daycare is harmful. But if single wealthy women want children they will get them, they have the financial resources to push the economy into making it happen one way or another. You don't fight economics with morals postmortem.
Oxitendwe 9y ago
You're supposed to raise your own children. This is inconsistent with having virtually every job an "educated" person can have.

nserrino 9y ago

I've noticed the preferences among my male and female friends diverging over time. In college, everyone seemed to want the same thing -- a partner that was both successful and attractive. But now as we make it to our late twenties, I noticed that they "settle" differently. My female friends increasingly prefer an older guy with a great career and my male friends a younger woman who is less accomplished than they were at their age. They both still say they want the same thing -- and I totally buy it -- but it is hard to find the perfect person so sacrifices tend to be made. I have definitely noticed the happiest people I know, in terms of romance, found their life partner in college.

xor1 9y ago
>I have definitely noticed the happiest people I know, in terms of romance, found their life partner in college. Definitely. I am almost 30, and I started dating extremely late (26). I'm happy with who I'm with right now, but I envy people who met their significant others in their teens or early 20s. They were able to grow together throughout early adulthood. I had to go through it all alone. I will do everything possible to make it so that my kids don't have to experience the same thing.
- damagednoob 9y ago
  > They were able to grow together throughout early adulthood. That's a double-edged sword. Sometimes people grow apart.
  - xor1 9y ago
    True, but better to have loved and lost, right?
    - Yetanfou 9y ago
      That depends on what the alternative was. For those who have been pining after love but did not find any until later 'having loved and lost' might be a desirable alternative. For those who've been busy with other things - study, research, discovery, what have you - and never really thought about finding themselves a partner 'having loved and lost' would be a net-negative.

jacobkg 9y ago

This problem is very evident amongst single female friends who are just out of medical residency. The ones that are married mostly met their spouses in undergrad but the others are having a lot of trouble finding men of similar education level.

xor1 9y ago
Hope they're willing to settle for someone with nothing more than a Bachelor's who still outearns them 2:1, after accounting for time spent in school instead of working and debt.
rcpt 9y ago
My wife is applying for residency now and it's become clear to me that American medical education just isn't fit for human consumption in general. I'm not at all surprised that your friends are having trouble with dating.

eighthnate 9y ago

Anyone else think this article was going to be about chess? Man HN has my mind so warped I thought this article was going to be about women and chess.

xedrac 9y ago
Seems to fit. "Unable to secure the smothered mate, she had to settle for the backrank mate."

throwawayXYZZ 9y ago

In Silicon Valley it has become too risky to date professional women. Everyone is a “Founder”, and everyone is an “Angel Investor”. Even flirting can end your career.

niuzeta 9y ago

Is this a problem that needs to be solved, though? I see a dichotomy here. On one hand, we would like to have more women in the "educated" and therefore, high-income workforce. This, in turn, causes imbalance in the dating market and may force the women in the high-income bracket to make a concession(by lowering their standards, etc). On the other, we can go back to the model where men dominate the high-income workforce and many women can "marry up" when they're younger. I would pick the former than the latter any day. Equality of opportunity trumps the equality of results in my world. Also, beyond a certain point, money just doesn't make the other person more attractive. I would rather date a caring jobless younger woman than an abusive doctor with several degrees. I make enough to pursue my dreams and leisures. Articles like this actually seem very insensitive for the men of my situation(previously poor, now making comfortably but didn't date much in 20s), as it purports that I, as a man in dating market, is worth as much as the amount of money I make. I hope that's not case for most people. Think about it. This is a "crisis" because there aren't high-earning men that these high-earning women would allow themselves to date? It doesn't necessarily trigger schadenfreude to me, if not a profound sadness due to a nature of the "problem". As a single man of early thirties, this sort of article horrifies and saddens me. You need to find your own happiness and maybe it shouldn't depend on other people. Jon Birger's Date-onomics(2015) discusses this phenomenon[1] pretty astutely, if you're interested in reading further data. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Date-onomics-Dating-Became-Lopsided-Numbers/dp/076118208X https://www.amazon.com/Date-onomics-Dating-Became-Lopsided-N...

ghostcluster 9y ago
It's one of the drivers causing all developed countries to have a fertility rate below the replacement rate. Japan's population, which is shrinking, worries about an aging majority without a base of young healthy workers who can support the economy and social programs. They are trying to mend this in the medium term by encouraging more women into the workforce, but, as we see from this article, that may have the unintended consequence of exacerbating the fertility crisis even further.
- MarkMc 9y ago
  That's a problem for Japan, but not rich western countries which can simply accept more immigration.

spectrestatus 9y ago

what. in the fuck. are y'all rambling on about..

perilunar 9y ago

I'm impressed HN — not a single mention yet of hypergamy, SMV or Red Pill theory! (and now I've gone and ruined it)

gspetr 9y ago
Always keep Law 38 in mind.

lackbeard 9y ago

> But for accomplished women who successfully traverse the waters of a mating pool unfairly stacked against them, mating triumph at the individual level typically takes precedence over loftier goals of reducing societal-level inequality when the two come into conflict. It's wrong to characterize the pool as "unfairly" stacked against them; they could choose to date men with lower incomes or less education.

gozur88 9y ago
Yeah, it's assortive mating. It's not that the mating pool is stacked against them - it's that their self assessment of their own "rank" is too high. They assume men want in a woman what women want in a man, and for the most part men don't care about the (potential) wife's career.
- tomp 9y ago
  > for the most part men don't care about the (potential) wife's career. There might even be an inverse correlation - the more successful the man is (hence the more money he earns, and the more hours he works), the more he would prefer his partner to take the lion's share of childcare and house-making, and also be able to pay for it. Ideally, of course, neither parent would have to work, but that's even more unrealistic for most of the population.

zzzzzzzza 9y ago

My experience trying to date women in physics and comp sci says this is mostly a crisis amongst non stem women.

whyever 9y ago
Of course, because in STEM it's the opposite: an oversupply of (educated) men.

vfulco 9y ago

You mean it is ok to be biologically inspired for your mating choices? Who knew?

Mz 9y ago

I wonder if it is any different in other countries with better health coverage and more family friendly policies.

lostgame 9y ago

Who says women have to date men?

Chris2048 9y ago
In biology, mating (or mateing in British English) is the pairing of either opposite-sex or hermaphroditic organisms, usually for the purposes of sexual reproduction -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mating https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mating
- throwaway9ac420 9y ago
  No, it's the same in British English, or as we call it, English.
  - Chris2048 9y ago
    It's Wikipedia makes the claim, not I :-)

htrp 9y ago

Needs citations

RhysU 9y ago

Interestingly no discussion of what must be a similar crisis among less-educated men.

hjkl4life 9y ago
That would mean trying to understand and optimize for men's reproductive strategy. As far as I can tell, the western world seems mostly concerned with female reproductive strategy.

squozzer 9y ago

Where I think this will go is pretty easy, as it happens already among the less-educated. Women will select a mate based more on looks than money, have a kid or two, then divorce him (aka "starter marriages".) Child support from the male will probably not matter for women who make enough money, but might still be a useful tool to keep the ex-hubby in line. This is probably a simpler, if more cynical, means than freezing ova for the "perfect" man to fertilize. And while men at the tippy-top might take a pass on divorcees with kids, for most men beyond a certain age, it's a fact of life, and frankly, we have decades of cultural brain-washing that makes such attitudes seem sexist.