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My Apology to Naomi Wu and the Make Community

215 points by runesoerensen 9y ago

runesoerensen 9y ago
I consider the issue with me resolved. This apology is more comprehensive and I have been promised tools with which I can repair my reputation here in China. https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/932363497647751168 https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/932363497647751168
- smegel 9y ago
  That Twitter page is NSFW. Although the username should have warned me.
  - ygaf 9y ago
    Why is a warning downvoted?
    - exodust 9y ago
      Because there's nothing unsafe about it.
    - YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
      I didn't downvote but the page is perfectly SFW. There's skin on display but no more than in, say, a one-piece swimsuit ad (on average- there's four or five pictures). There's no inappropriate body parts on display. I'd feel safe to show this to my boss, though my boss's mother would probably disaprove.
      - sn9 9y ago
        Really? I wouldn't dream of showing that page to my boss or coworkers. Honestly, doing so could plausibly and understandably make many women and some men uncomfortable.
        viraptor 9y ago
        I agree these may be uncomfortable for some. But they're definitely SFW. I'm ok with some things being uncomfortable. We got past the idea that women can wear trousers to work. We can get past this as well. Some progress can be uncomfortable.
        ryandrake 9y ago
        It’s almost as if... there isn’t a single universal definition of NSFW and different workplaces have different expectations! I know—-crazy, right?
      - flukus 9y ago
        Could you put up a calendar of similar pictures at your work desk? If not, like most of us then it's not SFW.
        exodust 9y ago
        Poor analogy. A calendar is obviously your choice of decoration that your colleagues will see every day. The calendar's content is on you. Visiting a Twitter page for a few seconds in your browser and the background happens to show the woman in a bikini, is absolutely not the same as your choice of calendar. There is no nudity anyway, it's 100% legal and we see similar images in the street, shop windows, billboards, TV, everywhere.
    - ploxiln 9y ago
      There is a funny kind of contradiction going on here. On the one hand, men in the tech community have been told it's never OK to use/share/endorse images of attractive women with "lots of skin", in any work or tech-community context, because it objectifies women, makes them uncomfortable, and pushes them away from the tech industry. On the other hand, men should respect how women present themselves, and welcome them into the tech community. Still, this doesn't save you if a moral busybody walks behind you when you're looking at this twitter profile - it's very conceivable that a guy could get in trouble or ostracized for "ogling scantily-clad women". Hell, surely you remember the two guys at pycon 4 years ago, some woman behind them heard one tell a (rather tame) "dongle" joke to the other, generated outrage on twitter, got them fired, etc. In this modern era where moral outrage is more in fashion than ever (in recent memory anyway), the only winning move is not to play.
      - Mz 9y ago
        I am a woman. I think she ought to tone it down a bit. I blogged about that. Edit: ironically this comment was being ignored as long as I had the disclaimer in it that I am routinely accused of victim blaming for trying to empower women. I removed it because I also get constantly accused of making things about me. The second it was removed, a personal attack in violation of the guidelines was posted as a reply and now my comment has been downvoted. Here is the blogpost in question in case anyone wants to read it instead of knee-jerk assuming I am just some sexually uptight prude: http://michelerebooted.blogspot.com/2017/11/how-i-try-to-direct-attention-as-woman.html http://michelerebooted.blogspot.com/2017/11/how-i-try-to-dir...
        awesomepantsm 9y ago
        That's nice, why should I care what you think about how some random person in the 7 billion people in the world should dress.
        Mz 9y ago
        That's nice. What makes you think I care to hear about your open contempt and dismissiveness of my opinion?
- the_gastropod 9y ago
  What a class act. Dougherty really did her dirty. It would be absolutely understandable if she didn't accept this apology. It's inspiring to see that she has, and is wanting to move forward amicably. She's comes out as the better person here. Bravo!
- reachtarunhere 9y ago
  Also, Dale has some of my respect for realizing what he did was wrong and then reevaluating and trying to make up for it. He could have possibly chosen to let the chaos settle and not apologize. I guess we all make mistakes sometimes. Good that he owned up.
ilamont 9y ago
Background: https://www.reddit.com/r/GamerGhazi/comments/7b1eqz/ceo_of_make_magazine_dale_dougherty_claims_that/ https://www.reddit.com/r/GamerGhazi/comments/7b1eqz/ceo_of_m... Cofounded O'Reilly Media, too: http://radar.oreilly.com/dale http://radar.oreilly.com/dale
cjbprime 9y ago
The best article I've read on the backstory: https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=5046 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=5046
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago
  I've only skimmed it so I may be missing something, but what did Dale Dougherty actually say about Naomi Wu? All I'm seeing is "Dale Doughtery tweeted a single line questioning Naomi Wu’s authenticity." Possibly unrelated, but I'm looking at Wu's Twitter (https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg), and this is something I struggle with. People should absolutely be allowed to dress how they please without fear of judgment. As the article says, "I do my best engineering when sitting half-naked at my desk." There's nothing wrong with that. But when a person or product deliberately cultivates a hypersexualized image in a field and setting that has nothing to do with sex, that's weird and off-putting to me. To swap the genders, I'd have no problem with a male engineer who does his best work half-naked at his desk at home and likes to do sexy cosplay sometimes, but it would be weird if that engineer's professional Twitter was topped with a dozen pics of him shirtless in leather pants--not "fake" or "inauthentic," just weird. I realize I know nothing about Wu except a glance at her Twitter, so I apologize if I'm missing something.
  - cjcenizal 9y ago
    I didn't downvote you, but I think you may be getting downvotes because of the sentence that begins with "But." > People should absolutely be allowed to dress how they please without fear of judgment. As the article says, "I do my best engineering when sitting half-naked at my desk." There's nothing wrong with that. That's it. Full stop. There's nothing to add after that. You don't need to add "but..." and then state the exact opposite of that sentiment. You find something weird about someone? Guess what -- we're all weird. Somebody out there probably finds something about you weird. But who gives a shit! Life's a lot better once you just get over it and accept people despite their weirdness. Or even better, because of their weirdness.
    - 9y ago
failrate 9y ago
I am super happy to see this response from Dale. I was horrified at what he posted, as it sounds completely out of character of him from what I know of him. Glad to see him own it and move onwards and upwards. I hope that this fixes Naomi's situation.
satysin 9y ago
That was a real dick move by Dale. All you have to do is watch a couple of Naomi's videos and you can see she is not a fraud. She is comfortable and competent with all the tools she uses in her videos and not just in a studio setting either but out and about she will hack on something. I am glad Dale has apologised as it was long overdue IMHO. I'm not sure I could be so forgiving as Naomi is though. For 2 weeks her reputation has been trashed.
- bigiain 9y ago
  Yeah - 2 weeks which I strongly suspect Dale spent arguing "What? I didn't do anything wrong!" while legal and PR tried desperately to convince him to publish an apology... He gets no credit from me for a 2 week late apology that's helpfully published with an accompanying Chinese translation. There's no sense of personal acknowledgement of wrongdoing here, just a corporate response to a paying-customer backlash.
  - gnulinux 9y ago
    Well said. This is exactly how I feel about this whole situation.
throwaway8184 9y ago
This seems absolutely typical of the modern world's approach to truth. Increasingly, the question is not what is true, but what should be true. For the record, here is the original blogpost -- which no one in this discussion links to or seems to have read, and which Dale Daugherty evidently found convincing: http://archive.is/GE0he http://archive.is/GE0he Is it morally wrong to be convinced by, for instance, a disparity between spoken and written English skills? If we believe that a narrative which is factually false is being presented to the public, are we allowed to question it factually? If not, what kind of world do we live in? Bunnie is wonderful. Bunnie is a great hacker. You can go through all of Bunnie's post, and not see any response to the facts and inferences laid out in the original blogpost.
cromwellian 9y ago
It's really quite ridiculous, because if you watch some of her videos where she's doing a build, it's obvious she's doing all the cutting, soldering, drilling, etc But more then that, if you watch videos where she is being interviewed talking about being a Maker (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcnChnrHwXg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcnChnrHwXg) she talks just like a real hacker. She uses the exact terminology and process you'd expect, knowing you're not an expert in something, but just scraping a whole bunch of different other projects that other people contributed and made tutorials on, and tweaking them and combining them to make it your own. It's like this CEO didn't spend even 10 minutes watching her videos and just decided to believe a conspiracy theory.
- throwaway8184 9y ago
  I watched that video. I saw a young Chinese woman with limited English skills buying electrical parts in Shenzhen. Maybe I skipped the wrong parts? Then, I am asked to believe that the same person wrote this: https://3dprintingindustry.com/news/3d-printing-next-five-years-naomi-wu-aka-sexy-cyborg-108980/ https://3dprintingindustry.com/news/3d-printing-next-five-ye... What am I doing wrong here? Should I not be suspicious at all? Can you genuinely not imagine that anyone could suspect that the author of the second article might not be the person on the screen in the first video?
  - danaliv 9y ago
    I didn't think her English was limited at all. Are you just hearing her accent?
    - cromwellian 9y ago
      Funny enough one of the big accusations against her being fake is that her English is “too good” for a native.
      - Avshalom 9y ago
        Wait part of the conspiracy included not being able to find a Chinese woman in China?
TempAccnt42 9y ago
Its clear from her youtube videos that Naomi has some experience. However the idea that her persona is "constructed" is not entirely misguided. My guess is the redditor known as "Timaz" (a white person who was part of the Shenzen community and pretty on reddit) is mentoring/working with her. In her videos you can pretty clearly see that she is working from Timaz's apartment. This picture[2] from here[3] is Timaz's. In this video[4] you can see what is pretty clearly the same cushioned chair. In this video[5] you can see the same wide computer screen on the pole that is also in the back of[2]. It has the same tall windows and metal railing outside. Also the same office chair, if you look closely you can see it is exactly the same model. I think by all of this the idea that there is some connection between Timaz and Naomi wu is clear. Hopefully its just that Naomi is friends with Timaz and has been using his apartment as a workspace. 2.https://web.archive.org/web/20171102170526/http://i.imgur.com/fLF9Q2m.jpg https://web.archive.org/web/20171102170526/http://i.imgur.co... 3.https://web.archive.org/web/20171102170256/https://www.reddit.com/r/China/comments/1qkquo/what_are_your_favorite_things_to_buy_on_taobao/ https://web.archive.org/web/20171102170256/https://www.reddi... 4.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPXs68Bx8OY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPXs68Bx8OY 5.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPmsi32m1nw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPmsi32m1nw
asciimo 9y ago
Fascinating story. In the end, I'm happy to have learned about a new maker hero to follow. (Naomi Wu, not Dale Dougherty.)
bArray 9y ago
Firstly, the public apology was required, she's clearly a maker and was wrongly accused of being a front person. >my response reflected my unconscious biases; and the negative impact of my tweets was amplified by the fact that I, a white, Western, male CEO of a key company in the Maker community, publicly questioned a young, female, self-employed Chinese maker. Fair point about unconscious bias. It's difficult as we are creatures of habit and purposely always look for patterns, mostly to our advantage but sometimes to our disadvantage. It's tough. I have seen countless times though that gender based unconscious bias is present in reality, more times than not against males - although rarely reported (schools, Universities and work places). The next point about how being a CEO for a company in a large engineering community and then publicly discrediting another person is massively impacting on the person being attacked. In general it seems to be that the more powerful your voice, the more you should think about what you say. Even then, powerless individuals can quickly be amplified for the purpose of being attacked or held up as a leader of some opinion. The next part grates. What has the combination of "white", "Western" and "male" got to do with the apology? Would the CEO's voice be any less effective if it was from an equally positioned black, African female? I would hope not. I think this could equally have been any other person of this power apologizing for doing little to no research. How did we get into the position where people are apologizing for features they are unable to control, somehow meaning they can or can't take part in some opinion/discussion? I bet the answer to that can't be made without discriminating. And looking at the actions being taken in response, it doesn't make much sense: >* With permission from Naomi, we will feature Naomi and her work on the cover of the next issue of Make: along with a full-length story about her work. >* We will invite her and help her obtain a VISA to a USA Maker Faire in 2018, covering her travel and expenses. >* We will be publishing a diversity audit of Make: as a company and our properties, and will be setting goals to drive progress on these issues. >* We will be assembling advisory boards to work with our Maker Faire organizers to ensure our events are representative of our entire community. We will invite Naomi to be part of any advisory board for events in China. Why is there now going to be a diversity audit of Make? What happened to question the diversity of Make and how does that prevent this public discrediting from occurring again? Surely a way more effective preventative measure would be to just turn off the CEO's Twitter account and stop any one person representative of Make from having unfiltered access to large audiences. On the other hand, featuring her work is a good gesture to counteract the incorrect public statement made. The advisory board position is over the top and again, seems to suggest that there is something wrong with the Make community when it was the actions of the CEO. Edit: Bad newline formatting for bullet points.
jacquesm 9y ago
What I really didn't like about this whole saga is that when miss Wu decided to strike back she got banned from Twitter for twelve hours.
- bigiain 9y ago
  Twitter's a fucking trashfire these days. Be an openly public Nazi? Oh no, we'll remove your blue verified tick! Use Twotter to send rape and death-threats? "No contravention of Twitter community guidelines..." Tell a nazi who threatens to kill you to fuck off? Get your account suspended... I feel Dale and Jack are from the same cult...
swang 9y ago
this was his second "apology" his first one was just a generic, "i'm sorry if i offended anyone" after he publicized a conspiracy theory about naomi. then it was revealed that andrew huang (who worked a lot on reverse engineering the original xbox), was asked in private by dale if naomi was real, and andrew vouched for her. yet he chose to go with the conspiracy theory story instead. this is a, "i better do this or my ass will be fired" deal. the original story was never posted on hackernews (that i recall) but if she didn't continue to fight for her reputation this dale would have just let this blow over.
Mz 9y ago
This seems to be a rare case of a woman turning a stumbling block into a career stepping stone. Given the amendments being made, I hope future press for Ms. Wu on HN is for her work, not her gender, wardrobe or being slandered.
badrabbit 9y ago
Glad he apologized and offered to right what he wronged. I hope Naomi accepts the apology as well. That said,unless you were personally wronged by this man,please let it go and consider this whole drama history. I wish either party didn't make this about a struggle between genders and classes. Guy acted like a jerk and apologized,something any one of us can do(regardless of gender,skin color or nationality)
Animats 9y ago
Well, Dale Dougherty just saved his career. He was going to lose this one. Naomi Wu has taken on challenges before and built things in front of an audience. Dale Dougherty is a publishing guy from print media. He acts like he's the head of the "maker movement", but he himself isn't a "maker". Unlike Jim Newton, the former head of TechShop, who is really into tools. He could have become a negative-value asset to Make Magazine and the Maker Faire operation. Make Magazine is dated, anyway. It's a print publication. Instructables is the go-to site for how to make things. That's now run by Autodesk, which encourages hobbyist use of Autodesk software in hopes that some amateurs will become pros and buy more Autodesk software. Naomi Wu's videos are often funny. She has a wry sense of humor. She converted a 3D printer into a wearable device worn on her back. It runs off batteries and prints as she rides the subway and walks through malls. The manufacturer for which she did that can now show that their unusual device is really robust. When it doesn't work, she's honest about it. She did an evaluation of a 3D printer / CNC mill / laser printer combo. The thing is an X-Y-Z platform with changeable tool heads. It wouldn't home consistently, and Wu gave it a very negative review. She has some nice techniques. At one point, she needed to punch a hole through a nylon covered foam pad, so she could put a bolt through. She heated up a screwdriver with a butane torch and pushed it through the pad, leaving a clean hole.
kprime 9y ago
An interesting bit of translation: English original: I specifically apologize for the tactless use of quotes around “her” in a tweet of mine that was offensive to Naomi and all women. Chinese translation: 我还要特别为我那句不得体的在“her”加双引号的暗示她是变性人言论抱歉，这不仅冒犯到Naomi而且对其他女性来说也是不公平的。 Chinese translated back to English: I am especially sorry for my tactless use of quotes around "her", alluding to that she is transsexual, which is not only offensive to Naomi but also unfair to other women.
- iliketosleep 9y ago
  That's a good find. Topics related to political correctness are often mistranslated due to cultural differences; western-style political correctness isn't really a "thing" in China.
Red_Tarsius 9y ago
He turns his personal flaws into a collective bias. His first paragraph tries to shift responsibility from the individual to a larger category of people. > "...the negative impact of my tweets was amplified by the fact that I, a white, Western, male CEO of a key company in the Maker community, publicly questioned a young, female, self-employed Chinese maker."
- lakechfoma 9y ago
  He's not trying to make the whole group responsible for his mistake, he is trying to highlight that white western males are powerful over marginalized groups and hold unconscious biases both collectively and individually. When someone with large white western male following sends racist/misogynist/whateverist signals, those signals are easily amplified and overpowering to whatever marginalized person/group is on the receiving end. So no, the entire group did not make that mistake. But it is every group members responsibility to understand these power dynamics and educate/change both themselves and their peers to not abuse this power be it on purpose or unconsciously. When a member of the group looks at a situation like this they need to reflect on if they are guilty at all and (regardless of if they are) how they can help change the culture. Your comment on "shifting responsibility" is not productive in that regard and only comes off as defensive. Not trying to say you're a white western dude possibly guilty of abusing power dynamics over marginalized groups, but something to keep in mind. Also read this[0] blog, much more eloquent and detailed than my response here. [0]https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=5046 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=5046
lallysingh 9y ago
What's with this invitation to the Western Maker Faire? The ones in China aren't equal?
- icebraining 9y ago
  The ones in China are probably not organized by the company directed by him.
kevenfu 9y ago
HOW TO BE COME A HACKER?
kevenfu 9y ago
HOW TO BECOME A HACKER

215 points by runesoerensen 9y ago

I consider the issue with me resolved. This apology is more comprehensive and I have been promised tools with which I can repair my reputation here in China. https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/932363497647751168 https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/932363497647751168

smegel 9y ago
That Twitter page is NSFW. Although the username should have warned me.
- ygaf 9y ago
  Why is a warning downvoted?
  - exodust 9y ago
    Because there's nothing unsafe about it.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
    I didn't downvote but the page is perfectly SFW. There's skin on display but no more than in, say, a one-piece swimsuit ad (on average- there's four or five pictures). There's no inappropriate body parts on display. I'd feel safe to show this to my boss, though my boss's mother would probably disaprove.
    - sn9 9y ago
      Really? I wouldn't dream of showing that page to my boss or coworkers. Honestly, doing so could plausibly and understandably make many women and some men uncomfortable.
      - viraptor 9y ago
        I agree these may be uncomfortable for some. But they're definitely SFW. I'm ok with some things being uncomfortable. We got past the idea that women can wear trousers to work. We can get past this as well. Some progress can be uncomfortable.
        ryandrake 9y ago
        It’s almost as if... there isn’t a single universal definition of NSFW and different workplaces have different expectations! I know—-crazy, right?
    - flukus 9y ago
      Could you put up a calendar of similar pictures at your work desk? If not, like most of us then it's not SFW.
      - exodust 9y ago
        Poor analogy. A calendar is obviously your choice of decoration that your colleagues will see every day. The calendar's content is on you. Visiting a Twitter page for a few seconds in your browser and the background happens to show the woman in a bikini, is absolutely not the same as your choice of calendar. There is no nudity anyway, it's 100% legal and we see similar images in the street, shop windows, billboards, TV, everywhere.
  - ploxiln 9y ago
    There is a funny kind of contradiction going on here. On the one hand, men in the tech community have been told it's never OK to use/share/endorse images of attractive women with "lots of skin", in any work or tech-community context, because it objectifies women, makes them uncomfortable, and pushes them away from the tech industry. On the other hand, men should respect how women present themselves, and welcome them into the tech community. Still, this doesn't save you if a moral busybody walks behind you when you're looking at this twitter profile - it's very conceivable that a guy could get in trouble or ostracized for "ogling scantily-clad women". Hell, surely you remember the two guys at pycon 4 years ago, some woman behind them heard one tell a (rather tame) "dongle" joke to the other, generated outrage on twitter, got them fired, etc. In this modern era where moral outrage is more in fashion than ever (in recent memory anyway), the only winning move is not to play.
    - Mz 9y ago
      I am a woman. I think she ought to tone it down a bit. I blogged about that. Edit: ironically this comment was being ignored as long as I had the disclaimer in it that I am routinely accused of victim blaming for trying to empower women. I removed it because I also get constantly accused of making things about me. The second it was removed, a personal attack in violation of the guidelines was posted as a reply and now my comment has been downvoted. Here is the blogpost in question in case anyone wants to read it instead of knee-jerk assuming I am just some sexually uptight prude: http://michelerebooted.blogspot.com/2017/11/how-i-try-to-direct-attention-as-woman.html http://michelerebooted.blogspot.com/2017/11/how-i-try-to-dir...
      - awesomepantsm 9y ago
        That's nice, why should I care what you think about how some random person in the 7 billion people in the world should dress.
        Mz 9y ago
        That's nice. What makes you think I care to hear about your open contempt and dismissiveness of my opinion?
the_gastropod 9y ago
What a class act. Dougherty really did her dirty. It would be absolutely understandable if she didn't accept this apology. It's inspiring to see that she has, and is wanting to move forward amicably. She's comes out as the better person here. Bravo!
reachtarunhere 9y ago
Also, Dale has some of my respect for realizing what he did was wrong and then reevaluating and trying to make up for it. He could have possibly chosen to let the chaos settle and not apologize. I guess we all make mistakes sometimes. Good that he owned up.

ilamont 9y ago

Background: https://www.reddit.com/r/GamerGhazi/comments/7b1eqz/ceo_of_make_magazine_dale_dougherty_claims_that/ https://www.reddit.com/r/GamerGhazi/comments/7b1eqz/ceo_of_m... Cofounded O'Reilly Media, too: http://radar.oreilly.com/dale http://radar.oreilly.com/dale

cjbprime 9y ago

The best article I've read on the backstory: https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=5046 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=5046

PhasmaFelis 9y ago
I've only skimmed it so I may be missing something, but what did Dale Dougherty actually say about Naomi Wu? All I'm seeing is "Dale Doughtery tweeted a single line questioning Naomi Wu’s authenticity." Possibly unrelated, but I'm looking at Wu's Twitter (https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg), and this is something I struggle with. People should absolutely be allowed to dress how they please without fear of judgment. As the article says, "I do my best engineering when sitting half-naked at my desk." There's nothing wrong with that. But when a person or product deliberately cultivates a hypersexualized image in a field and setting that has nothing to do with sex, that's weird and off-putting to me. To swap the genders, I'd have no problem with a male engineer who does his best work half-naked at his desk at home and likes to do sexy cosplay sometimes, but it would be weird if that engineer's professional Twitter was topped with a dozen pics of him shirtless in leather pants--not "fake" or "inauthentic," just weird. I realize I know nothing about Wu except a glance at her Twitter, so I apologize if I'm missing something.
- cjcenizal 9y ago
  I didn't downvote you, but I think you may be getting downvotes because of the sentence that begins with "But." > People should absolutely be allowed to dress how they please without fear of judgment. As the article says, "I do my best engineering when sitting half-naked at my desk." There's nothing wrong with that. That's it. Full stop. There's nothing to add after that. You don't need to add "but..." and then state the exact opposite of that sentiment. You find something weird about someone? Guess what -- we're all weird. Somebody out there probably finds something about you weird. But who gives a shit! Life's a lot better once you just get over it and accept people despite their weirdness. Or even better, because of their weirdness.
  - 9y ago

failrate 9y ago

I am super happy to see this response from Dale. I was horrified at what he posted, as it sounds completely out of character of him from what I know of him. Glad to see him own it and move onwards and upwards. I hope that this fixes Naomi's situation.

satysin 9y ago

That was a real dick move by Dale. All you have to do is watch a couple of Naomi's videos and you can see she is not a fraud. She is comfortable and competent with all the tools she uses in her videos and not just in a studio setting either but out and about she will hack on something. I am glad Dale has apologised as it was long overdue IMHO. I'm not sure I could be so forgiving as Naomi is though. For 2 weeks her reputation has been trashed.

bigiain 9y ago
Yeah - 2 weeks which I strongly suspect Dale spent arguing "What? I didn't do anything wrong!" while legal and PR tried desperately to convince him to publish an apology... He gets no credit from me for a 2 week late apology that's helpfully published with an accompanying Chinese translation. There's no sense of personal acknowledgement of wrongdoing here, just a corporate response to a paying-customer backlash.
- gnulinux 9y ago
  Well said. This is exactly how I feel about this whole situation.

throwaway8184 9y ago

This seems absolutely typical of the modern world's approach to truth. Increasingly, the question is not what is true, but what should be true. For the record, here is the original blogpost -- which no one in this discussion links to or seems to have read, and which Dale Daugherty evidently found convincing: http://archive.is/GE0he http://archive.is/GE0he Is it morally wrong to be convinced by, for instance, a disparity between spoken and written English skills? If we believe that a narrative which is factually false is being presented to the public, are we allowed to question it factually? If not, what kind of world do we live in? Bunnie is wonderful. Bunnie is a great hacker. You can go through all of Bunnie's post, and not see any response to the facts and inferences laid out in the original blogpost.

cromwellian 9y ago

It's really quite ridiculous, because if you watch some of her videos where she's doing a build, it's obvious she's doing all the cutting, soldering, drilling, etc But more then that, if you watch videos where she is being interviewed talking about being a Maker (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcnChnrHwXg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcnChnrHwXg) she talks just like a real hacker. She uses the exact terminology and process you'd expect, knowing you're not an expert in something, but just scraping a whole bunch of different other projects that other people contributed and made tutorials on, and tweaking them and combining them to make it your own. It's like this CEO didn't spend even 10 minutes watching her videos and just decided to believe a conspiracy theory.

throwaway8184 9y ago
I watched that video. I saw a young Chinese woman with limited English skills buying electrical parts in Shenzhen. Maybe I skipped the wrong parts? Then, I am asked to believe that the same person wrote this: https://3dprintingindustry.com/news/3d-printing-next-five-years-naomi-wu-aka-sexy-cyborg-108980/ https://3dprintingindustry.com/news/3d-printing-next-five-ye... What am I doing wrong here? Should I not be suspicious at all? Can you genuinely not imagine that anyone could suspect that the author of the second article might not be the person on the screen in the first video?
- danaliv 9y ago
  I didn't think her English was limited at all. Are you just hearing her accent?
  - cromwellian 9y ago
    Funny enough one of the big accusations against her being fake is that her English is “too good” for a native.
    - Avshalom 9y ago
      Wait part of the conspiracy included not being able to find a Chinese woman in China?

TempAccnt42 9y ago

Its clear from her youtube videos that Naomi has some experience. However the idea that her persona is "constructed" is not entirely misguided. My guess is the redditor known as "Timaz" (a white person who was part of the Shenzen community and pretty on reddit) is mentoring/working with her. In her videos you can pretty clearly see that she is working from Timaz's apartment. This picture[2] from here[3] is Timaz's. In this video[4] you can see what is pretty clearly the same cushioned chair. In this video[5] you can see the same wide computer screen on the pole that is also in the back of[2]. It has the same tall windows and metal railing outside. Also the same office chair, if you look closely you can see it is exactly the same model. I think by all of this the idea that there is some connection between Timaz and Naomi wu is clear. Hopefully its just that Naomi is friends with Timaz and has been using his apartment as a workspace. 2.https://web.archive.org/web/20171102170526/http://i.imgur.com/fLF9Q2m.jpg https://web.archive.org/web/20171102170526/http://i.imgur.co... 3.https://web.archive.org/web/20171102170256/https://www.reddit.com/r/China/comments/1qkquo/what_are_your_favorite_things_to_buy_on_taobao/ https://web.archive.org/web/20171102170256/https://www.reddi... 4.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPXs68Bx8OY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPXs68Bx8OY 5.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPmsi32m1nw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPmsi32m1nw

asciimo 9y ago

Fascinating story. In the end, I'm happy to have learned about a new maker hero to follow. (Naomi Wu, not Dale Dougherty.)

bArray 9y ago

Firstly, the public apology was required, she's clearly a maker and was wrongly accused of being a front person. >my response reflected my unconscious biases; and the negative impact of my tweets was amplified by the fact that I, a white, Western, male CEO of a key company in the Maker community, publicly questioned a young, female, self-employed Chinese maker. Fair point about unconscious bias. It's difficult as we are creatures of habit and purposely always look for patterns, mostly to our advantage but sometimes to our disadvantage. It's tough. I have seen countless times though that gender based unconscious bias is present in reality, more times than not against males - although rarely reported (schools, Universities and work places). The next point about how being a CEO for a company in a large engineering community and then publicly discrediting another person is massively impacting on the person being attacked. In general it seems to be that the more powerful your voice, the more you should think about what you say. Even then, powerless individuals can quickly be amplified for the purpose of being attacked or held up as a leader of some opinion. The next part grates. What has the combination of "white", "Western" and "male" got to do with the apology? Would the CEO's voice be any less effective if it was from an equally positioned black, African female? I would hope not. I think this could equally have been any other person of this power apologizing for doing little to no research. How did we get into the position where people are apologizing for features they are unable to control, somehow meaning they can or can't take part in some opinion/discussion? I bet the answer to that can't be made without discriminating. And looking at the actions being taken in response, it doesn't make much sense: >* With permission from Naomi, we will feature Naomi and her work on the cover of the next issue of Make: along with a full-length story about her work. >* We will invite her and help her obtain a VISA to a USA Maker Faire in 2018, covering her travel and expenses. >* We will be publishing a diversity audit of Make: as a company and our properties, and will be setting goals to drive progress on these issues. >* We will be assembling advisory boards to work with our Maker Faire organizers to ensure our events are representative of our entire community. We will invite Naomi to be part of any advisory board for events in China. Why is there now going to be a diversity audit of Make? What happened to question the diversity of Make and how does that prevent this public discrediting from occurring again? Surely a way more effective preventative measure would be to just turn off the CEO's Twitter account and stop any one person representative of Make from having unfiltered access to large audiences. On the other hand, featuring her work is a good gesture to counteract the incorrect public statement made. The advisory board position is over the top and again, seems to suggest that there is something wrong with the Make community when it was the actions of the CEO. Edit: Bad newline formatting for bullet points.

jacquesm 9y ago

What I really didn't like about this whole saga is that when miss Wu decided to strike back she got banned from Twitter for twelve hours.

bigiain 9y ago
Twitter's a fucking trashfire these days. Be an openly public Nazi? Oh no, we'll remove your blue verified tick! Use Twotter to send rape and death-threats? "No contravention of Twitter community guidelines..." Tell a nazi who threatens to kill you to fuck off? Get your account suspended... I feel Dale and Jack are from the same cult...

swang 9y ago

this was his second "apology" his first one was just a generic, "i'm sorry if i offended anyone" after he publicized a conspiracy theory about naomi. then it was revealed that andrew huang (who worked a lot on reverse engineering the original xbox), was asked in private by dale if naomi was real, and andrew vouched for her. yet he chose to go with the conspiracy theory story instead. this is a, "i better do this or my ass will be fired" deal. the original story was never posted on hackernews (that i recall) but if she didn't continue to fight for her reputation this dale would have just let this blow over.

Mz 9y ago

This seems to be a rare case of a woman turning a stumbling block into a career stepping stone. Given the amendments being made, I hope future press for Ms. Wu on HN is for her work, not her gender, wardrobe or being slandered.

badrabbit 9y ago

Glad he apologized and offered to right what he wronged. I hope Naomi accepts the apology as well. That said,unless you were personally wronged by this man,please let it go and consider this whole drama history. I wish either party didn't make this about a struggle between genders and classes. Guy acted like a jerk and apologized,something any one of us can do(regardless of gender,skin color or nationality)

Animats 9y ago

Well, Dale Dougherty just saved his career. He was going to lose this one. Naomi Wu has taken on challenges before and built things in front of an audience. Dale Dougherty is a publishing guy from print media. He acts like he's the head of the "maker movement", but he himself isn't a "maker". Unlike Jim Newton, the former head of TechShop, who is really into tools. He could have become a negative-value asset to Make Magazine and the Maker Faire operation. Make Magazine is dated, anyway. It's a print publication. Instructables is the go-to site for how to make things. That's now run by Autodesk, which encourages hobbyist use of Autodesk software in hopes that some amateurs will become pros and buy more Autodesk software. Naomi Wu's videos are often funny. She has a wry sense of humor. She converted a 3D printer into a wearable device worn on her back. It runs off batteries and prints as she rides the subway and walks through malls. The manufacturer for which she did that can now show that their unusual device is really robust. When it doesn't work, she's honest about it. She did an evaluation of a 3D printer / CNC mill / laser printer combo. The thing is an X-Y-Z platform with changeable tool heads. It wouldn't home consistently, and Wu gave it a very negative review. She has some nice techniques. At one point, she needed to punch a hole through a nylon covered foam pad, so she could put a bolt through. She heated up a screwdriver with a butane torch and pushed it through the pad, leaving a clean hole.

kprime 9y ago

An interesting bit of translation: English original: I specifically apologize for the tactless use of quotes around “her” in a tweet of mine that was offensive to Naomi and all women. Chinese translation: 我还要特别为我那句不得体的在“her”加双引号的暗示她是变性人言论抱歉，这不仅冒犯到Naomi而且对其他女性来说也是不公平的。 Chinese translated back to English: I am especially sorry for my tactless use of quotes around "her", alluding to that she is transsexual, which is not only offensive to Naomi but also unfair to other women.

iliketosleep 9y ago
That's a good find. Topics related to political correctness are often mistranslated due to cultural differences; western-style political correctness isn't really a "thing" in China.

Red_Tarsius 9y ago

He turns his personal flaws into a collective bias. His first paragraph tries to shift responsibility from the individual to a larger category of people. > "...the negative impact of my tweets was amplified by the fact that I, a white, Western, male CEO of a key company in the Maker community, publicly questioned a young, female, self-employed Chinese maker."

lakechfoma 9y ago
He's not trying to make the whole group responsible for his mistake, he is trying to highlight that white western males are powerful over marginalized groups and hold unconscious biases both collectively and individually. When someone with large white western male following sends racist/misogynist/whateverist signals, those signals are easily amplified and overpowering to whatever marginalized person/group is on the receiving end. So no, the entire group did not make that mistake. But it is every group members responsibility to understand these power dynamics and educate/change both themselves and their peers to not abuse this power be it on purpose or unconsciously. When a member of the group looks at a situation like this they need to reflect on if they are guilty at all and (regardless of if they are) how they can help change the culture. Your comment on "shifting responsibility" is not productive in that regard and only comes off as defensive. Not trying to say you're a white western dude possibly guilty of abusing power dynamics over marginalized groups, but something to keep in mind. Also read this[0] blog, much more eloquent and detailed than my response here. [0]https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=5046 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=5046

lallysingh 9y ago

What's with this invitation to the Western Maker Faire? The ones in China aren't equal?

icebraining 9y ago
The ones in China are probably not organized by the company directed by him.

kevenfu 9y ago

HOW TO BE COME A HACKER?

kevenfu 9y ago

HOW TO BECOME A HACKER