5 ms·

Not that I'm a fan of government regulation for technology issues like this but the security situation is beyond a joke. For one, it's time to hold companies (

by cletus 9y ago

Not that I'm a fan of government regulation for technology issues like this but the security situation is beyond a joke. For one, it's time to hold companies (and executives!) accountable for security of the data they are charged with protecting, often without your consent (eg Equifax). For another, insufficient product liability for companies being lax--even negligent--with security. Honestly I don't see an outcome like network-connected lightbulbs bringing down the Internet as particularly far-fetched. Frankly I don't even know what the market for IoT even is. Who needs $50 light bulbs that will DDoS someone one day? Or, worse, compromise your network to an attacker. And all for what? So you can turn the lights on after you go through multiple steps to unlock your phone?

thaumasiotes 9y ago
> And all for what? So you can turn the lights on after you go through multiple steps to unlock your phone? I wanted network-connected lightbulbs so I could have them turn on at the time I needed to wake up, when that time was well before dawn. I never installed them because I didn't know how to secure them and my schedule got more reasonable, but I think the use case is pretty compelling.
- joe_the_user 9y ago
  Why would light bulbs need to be connected to the Internet for the use case of being turned on at a specific time? They'd just need to be connected to a timer for this. I mean, an Internet connected light bulb use-case would a bulb that flashed whenever a stock you owned went down in price, which is ridiculous despite being the least ridiculous example I could think of. IoT security cameras and an automated kitchen you phone to, to prepared you dinner if you were coming home unexpected seems like the least crazy IoT device an individual could own - most IoT stuff seems more like what a global company would want rather than an individual.
  - DanBC 9y ago
    > despite being the least ridiculous example I could think of. A lighbulb flashes when visitors ring the doorbell, which is useful for people with visual impairment. the doorbell has a hidden rfid reader, and certain guests have an rfid card. the doorbell flashes differently for each visitor.
    - GrinningFool 9y ago
      That could also be done without network connectivity, even local. A microcontroller with a relay and rfid reader would do it. A fancier version might use bluetooth to let your phone set up new cards and disable/change others - still no need to talk to anything external beyond the phone itself. Take it one step further, and you could trigger it via an NFC read of your vistors' phones. This also would not need to connect to a network (beyond installing the app on the phones). Actually, sounds like it might be a fun project to play with :D
    - pdkl95 9y ago
      That only needs a local wireless (or whatever) connection between the reader and the light. X10 et al did this over power lines over 20 years ago. Communicating over 802.11 - with or without the internet - adds complexity and exposes the device to the world.
    - joe_the_user 9y ago
      "A lighbulb flashes when visitors ring the doorbell, which is useful for people with visual impairment. the doorbell has a hidden rfid reader, and certain guests have an rfid card. the doorbell flashes differently for each visitor." How is this an example of something that needs to be connected to the Internet. My point is most examples are about local connect to justify a jump into a world-wide, insecure net. I mean, all the light bulb examples are contrived because a PHONE has all information-conveying ability of a light bulb and is designed for information-conveyance. Light bulb are designed for the light-consumption needs of those nearby and examples of light-bulb-control at a distance are either poor substitutes for phones or "weirdness" - haunted houses and art-happenings.
  - arcbyte 9y ago
    It doesn’t matter whether you know of any use cases or not. Somebody else does. Don’t interfere with their liberties.
    - gruez 9y ago
      >Don’t interfere with their liberties. that's well and good until they cause negative externalities
  - thaumasiotes 9y ago
    > Why would light bulbs need to be connected to the Internet for the use case of being turned on at a specific time? They'd just need to be connected to a timer for this. I already have a network connected to the internet. I don't already have a dedicated light bulb timer, and producing one of those, or buying one that had somehow gotten produced, would be stupid. I had no particular desire for the bulbs to be connected to the internet, but I did want them connected to my home network, and I did also want my home network connected to the internet.
  - ryandrake 9y ago
    Exactly. Nearly everyone who tries to explain why I would want Xyz device to connect to the Internet cites a use case that... doesn't require an Internet connection! Turning lights on and off at certain times, buzzing when a doorbell is pressed, thermostats and sprinklers that respond to the weather. Even security cameras don't need an Internet connection when being viewed locally, yet my Dropcam insists on sending all video out to a web service, just so that I can request it all back when viewing on my computer! Insane!
    - joe_the_user 9y ago
      Indeed, You get a combination of a wifi network being the one sort network every person is guaranteed to be already on and every company dreaming of cloud-based-app supremacy "synergizing" every useless whatsit they have access and the IoT nightmare is in full swing. "What could possibly go" - wait, we've seen answers to that one already.
flashman 9y ago
> And all for what? So you can turn the lights on after you go through multiple steps to unlock your phone? The fact that they're IoT devices is kind of irrelevant, as is their function. The underlying question is: to what extent should manufacturers be made responsible for the damage their products cause? If you make an electric heater that routinely combusts during normal operation, your customers and the state have some recourse against you – not that it would happen, because there are generally standards in that industry. But if you make a device that quietly becomes part of a botnet, you really aren't going to suffer; even the reputational issues are generally minimal.
alkonaut 9y ago
> And all for what? So you can turn the lights on after you go through multiple steps to unlock your phone? I don't get it either. I can get the idea of switching on and off all the lighting in a home e.g. when leaving (hotel room style) but to do that you need to have a hell of a lot of gadgets, not just a couple of "smart lightbulbs". The only reason we have smart lightbulbs for switching to begin with was because someone realized that the sockets are standardized and users can switch bulbs. The elephant in the room is the wall switch, it's now in series with the bulb! Every time someone switches off the light using the lightswitch, the smart bulb can't be switched on again! And no - people will NOT stop switching lights manually just because they have a smart bulb! What people really want, would be smart switches, not smart bulbs. With a smart switch, you can switch either by hand or remotely. I just don't get why manufacturers (and customers, most of all) don't realize this. Are people happier to buy the bulb because it's a 10 second job to change, compared to the wall switch which might be an hour worst case require an electrician? I'd be thrilled to change all my switches and dimmners to smart ones, once there are gadgets that are cheap, secure, reliable etc. I'd mostly use it to have a master lightswitch somewhere near the front door.

by cletus 9y ago

thaumasiotes 9y ago

> And all for what? So you can turn the lights on after you go through multiple steps to unlock your phone? I wanted network-connected lightbulbs so I could have them turn on at the time I needed to wake up, when that time was well before dawn. I never installed them because I didn't know how to secure them and my schedule got more reasonable, but I think the use case is pretty compelling.

joe_the_user 9y ago
Why would light bulbs need to be connected to the Internet for the use case of being turned on at a specific time? They'd just need to be connected to a timer for this. I mean, an Internet connected light bulb use-case would a bulb that flashed whenever a stock you owned went down in price, which is ridiculous despite being the least ridiculous example I could think of. IoT security cameras and an automated kitchen you phone to, to prepared you dinner if you were coming home unexpected seems like the least crazy IoT device an individual could own - most IoT stuff seems more like what a global company would want rather than an individual.
- DanBC 9y ago
  > despite being the least ridiculous example I could think of. A lighbulb flashes when visitors ring the doorbell, which is useful for people with visual impairment. the doorbell has a hidden rfid reader, and certain guests have an rfid card. the doorbell flashes differently for each visitor.
  - GrinningFool 9y ago
    That could also be done without network connectivity, even local. A microcontroller with a relay and rfid reader would do it. A fancier version might use bluetooth to let your phone set up new cards and disable/change others - still no need to talk to anything external beyond the phone itself. Take it one step further, and you could trigger it via an NFC read of your vistors' phones. This also would not need to connect to a network (beyond installing the app on the phones). Actually, sounds like it might be a fun project to play with :D
  - pdkl95 9y ago
    That only needs a local wireless (or whatever) connection between the reader and the light. X10 et al did this over power lines over 20 years ago. Communicating over 802.11 - with or without the internet - adds complexity and exposes the device to the world.
  - joe_the_user 9y ago
    "A lighbulb flashes when visitors ring the doorbell, which is useful for people with visual impairment. the doorbell has a hidden rfid reader, and certain guests have an rfid card. the doorbell flashes differently for each visitor." How is this an example of something that needs to be connected to the Internet. My point is most examples are about local connect to justify a jump into a world-wide, insecure net. I mean, all the light bulb examples are contrived because a PHONE has all information-conveying ability of a light bulb and is designed for information-conveyance. Light bulb are designed for the light-consumption needs of those nearby and examples of light-bulb-control at a distance are either poor substitutes for phones or "weirdness" - haunted houses and art-happenings.
- arcbyte 9y ago
  It doesn’t matter whether you know of any use cases or not. Somebody else does. Don’t interfere with their liberties.
  - gruez 9y ago
    >Don’t interfere with their liberties. that's well and good until they cause negative externalities
- thaumasiotes 9y ago
  > Why would light bulbs need to be connected to the Internet for the use case of being turned on at a specific time? They'd just need to be connected to a timer for this. I already have a network connected to the internet. I don't already have a dedicated light bulb timer, and producing one of those, or buying one that had somehow gotten produced, would be stupid. I had no particular desire for the bulbs to be connected to the internet, but I did want them connected to my home network, and I did also want my home network connected to the internet.
- ryandrake 9y ago
  Exactly. Nearly everyone who tries to explain why I would want Xyz device to connect to the Internet cites a use case that... doesn't require an Internet connection! Turning lights on and off at certain times, buzzing when a doorbell is pressed, thermostats and sprinklers that respond to the weather. Even security cameras don't need an Internet connection when being viewed locally, yet my Dropcam insists on sending all video out to a web service, just so that I can request it all back when viewing on my computer! Insane!
  - joe_the_user 9y ago
    Indeed, You get a combination of a wifi network being the one sort network every person is guaranteed to be already on and every company dreaming of cloud-based-app supremacy "synergizing" every useless whatsit they have access and the IoT nightmare is in full swing. "What could possibly go" - wait, we've seen answers to that one already.

flashman 9y ago

> And all for what? So you can turn the lights on after you go through multiple steps to unlock your phone? The fact that they're IoT devices is kind of irrelevant, as is their function. The underlying question is: to what extent should manufacturers be made responsible for the damage their products cause? If you make an electric heater that routinely combusts during normal operation, your customers and the state have some recourse against you – not that it would happen, because there are generally standards in that industry. But if you make a device that quietly becomes part of a botnet, you really aren't going to suffer; even the reputational issues are generally minimal.

alkonaut 9y ago

> And all for what? So you can turn the lights on after you go through multiple steps to unlock your phone? I don't get it either. I can get the idea of switching on and off all the lighting in a home e.g. when leaving (hotel room style) but to do that you need to have a hell of a lot of gadgets, not just a couple of "smart lightbulbs". The only reason we have smart lightbulbs for switching to begin with was because someone realized that the sockets are standardized and users can switch bulbs. The elephant in the room is the wall switch, it's now in series with the bulb! Every time someone switches off the light using the lightswitch, the smart bulb can't be switched on again! And no - people will NOT stop switching lights manually just because they have a smart bulb! What people really want, would be smart switches, not smart bulbs. With a smart switch, you can switch either by hand or remotely. I just don't get why manufacturers (and customers, most of all) don't realize this. Are people happier to buy the bulb because it's a 10 second job to change, compared to the wall switch which might be an hour worst case require an electrician? I'd be thrilled to change all my switches and dimmners to smart ones, once there are gadgets that are cheap, secure, reliable etc. I'd mostly use it to have a master lightswitch somewhere near the front door.