9 ms·

I know this might not be a popular opinion. But I've basically instituted a modified version of this rule for myself. Billy Graham and Mike Pence are definitel

• astura 9y ago
  I don't understand why you think it makes you a jerk, most of what you said I'd simply include simply under "being professional."
  • shifter 9y ago
    A lot of feminists think this denies networking opportunities for women.
    • gozur88 9y ago
      The feminists created the environment in which it becomes the smart thing to do.
      • nothrabannosir 9y ago
        No, the people committing sexual assault did.
      • sitkack 9y ago
        > The feminists The people who think women should be equal ...
        • gozur88 9y ago
          Sure. Just like the communists thought people should be equal.
          • sitkack 9y ago
            So in your mind, personal and social equality are equated two things, Communism and Feminism? Could you explain this?
            • gozur88 9y ago
              I'll explain it this way: Both the feminists and the communists espouse equality as a tool to get what they're really after - power.
          • throwawaymanbot 9y ago
            Wow.... comments like that can get you banned from places like this.
          • sctb 9y ago
            This is getting crazy. Can we please not do this? > Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        • abiox 9y ago
          i think that to many this is almost comically reductive, if not an outright red herring. (not that 'the feminists' is a super useful term.)
    • Frondo 9y ago
      When men openly discuss not meeting with women because of a fear of being falsely accused (which itself is exceedingly rare) of inappropriate behavior or molestation, what are women supposed to conclude? That they aren't being denied networking opportunities or opportunities to build working relationships? What is a positive take-away for women from powerful or monied men saying, in public, "I am afraid of meeting with women, so I no longer will"? For the record, I'm a dude and when I hear men say this, I think much less of them--for being cowardly and shutting women out of industry for their cowardice.
      • kelukelugames 9y ago
        I think we lack empathy. How would we men feel if the situation was switched? At work we discussed a customer who wouldn't shake hands with women because of his religion. A coworker said that's not sexist and the company should accommodate the customer. I asked him how he'd feel if a customer's religion bars handshakes with white dudes. He looked down and had no response.
      • sitkack 9y ago
        What if white bosses said the same things about black employees? People's unit tests are tots broke.
        • abiox 9y ago
          i suppose it depends on there being a similar circumstance. if accusations of interpersonal 'racial harassment' became more regular, you would probably see a shift in behavior with some people going out of their way to avoid 'risky' situations.
          • sitkack 9y ago
            The chicken littles claiming this problem exists in the first place are publicly scared they are next. This they admit outright. I'd wager that people making these claims probably _do_ have this as a risk, for good reason.
    • astura 9y ago
      I'm a woman and I am a feminist. Unless you are an actor or dancer any sort of touching with coworkers is very inappropriate for all genders, sexual or non sexual touching included. Keeping your work and professional lives separate is just good sense. It's rude to make comments about other people's appearances unless you are very close friends with them. Closed door meetings are sometimes needed but you should never do them excessively or with only the young or attractive, that looks like you're being inappropriate. Basically, it's just professionalism and should apply to everyone, all genders. I an friendly with my colleagues but I don't want to be friends with them. I prefer to keep my professional relationships professional and my personal relationships personal.
      • aaron695 9y ago
        As such I would not want to work with you or hire you, man or woman. Work is the majority of many peoples lives. Human touch is fucking important to most homosapians and is used continiuosly and importantly in most interactions (like other things like the obvious talking but also smell and body language) I understand you might have a disorder or be atypical but the problem is you seem to think societies entire wellbeing should be reduced for your own wellbeing rather than dealing with your atypicalness or disability.
        • abiox 9y ago
          > Human touch is fucking important if it's important to you, that's why you have friends and family. i'm sure as an adult you can handle not fondling other adults at work, because even if you think 'it's important', you don't know what kind of space other people are in and how they feel about you touching them.
          • aaron695 9y ago
            I assume english is not your first language. Fondling is not even close to the word touching. Fondling is about sexuality. Touching is a physical action. You touch a cup. You touch a dog. You touch a touch screen. You touch someone when you shake their hand. Roughly, you can't fondle a cup. You wouldn't say you fondle a dog, and you won't say you fondle friends and family. (And I do know spaces my workmates are in... as much as family and friends, so should you if you are able. Human beings matter, a workplace is more than money)
  • kelukelugames 9y ago
    I don't understand why people hug their co workers. That sounds weird. But some of the things on the list are ridiculous. I'm socially awkward and I still don't have problems having a closed door conversation with a member of the opposite sex. Are you just going to pass on interviewing women because that puts the two of you in a room?
    • astura 9y ago
      Yeah, that's the only thing on the list that I thought was weird, that's why I said "most." The closed door meetings in all these sexual misconduct stories were really, really egregious and would be easily avoided. Everything else is just being professional.
    • Frondo 9y ago
      I used to be socially awkward, terribly so, and I was never ever afraid of being in a closed room with a woman, because even at the height of my awkwardness I certainly wouldn't 1) make sexist remarks or jokes, 2) stare at her body or, 3) flirt. People might've known me as a weirdo who stuttered or referred to Star Trek too much, but no one would ever think of me as inappropriate, simply because I never was, not even close.
    • ghostbrainalpha 9y ago
      In my position if I have to interview a woman (or any candidate), I can talk to her with my team present. Maybe it would be different if I was the CEO hiring for an executive position, and then I would make an exception. But for white boarding? Even if it were 1 on 1, I don't understand the need to have the door shut. Privacy makes me uncomfortable anytime in a work environment. I like my home life private, but I'm fine having my work place conversations overheard by others.
    • rexpop 9y ago
      Frankly, if the power difference is too great, it's not ethically safe to go into a room alone. Alone in a room with Putin/Duterte in their homefields, and God knows to what you'd agree. If they coerce you, you might not be believed and, besides, they could have you killed. Never walk into a room, alone with a dictator. Or, if you're an 18yo store clerk for American Apparel, never do so w/ the CEO of your company. And it's unethical to ask a subordinate to expose themselves by joining you, the authority, in such a situation. ... extenuating circumstances aside.
• jstarfish 9y ago
  > Maybe this makes me a jerk. But I feel like it keeps the relationships I care about most (those with my family) safe. Don't be so negative. They do the same things in Boy Scouts now for the same reasons. The net result is a safer environment for leadership and children alike.
• tetrep 9y ago
  Do you extend the same principles to homosexual men? Are homosexual women exempted? I find it easier to not have to consider the sexual preferences of my coworkers when I'm interacting with them. Edit: I should add, if someone is going to attack my character, they're going to do it regardless of what I do. I'm not going to go out of my way to prevent that. Similar to using encryption everywhere you can: it makes the use of it non-suspicious. The last thing I want is for being alone with a coworker to be implicitly suspicious because the new norm is this sillyness.
  • Dylan16807 9y ago
    > Do you extend the same principles to homosexual men? Are homosexual women exempted? The worry is about him appearing plausibly improper, so their sexuality doesn't matter.
    • s73ver_ 9y ago
      Right, but the implication is that they'd be just fine meeting one on one with another man. That it's only women who get treated specially.
      • Dylan16807 9y ago
        Yes, that's the point. That this paranoia is bad for women. And the paranoia is all about a man with any element of power interacting with a woman. The first party's sexuality is somewhat relevant, but the latter's doesn't matter at all.
        • s73ver_ 9y ago
          I'm sorry, but that paranoia is pure cowardice. If someone in power cannot meet with someone one on one without attempting anything, then they do not deserve to be in that position, full stop.
          • Dylan16807 9y ago
• egwynn 9y ago
  I dunno if I’d say that makes you a jerk, but it strikes me as maybe a little overcautious. As with any security/safety issue, I think it comes down to the threat model you’re using. What’s the attack vector you’re protecting against? How likely is it that any attempt on that vector will succeed? What’s the damage if it succeeds? Speaking for myself, it never seems like I need to go too far out of my normal mode in order to keep the whole threat model in check.
  • jparse 9y ago
    The threat model is an accusation. You are toast if you even get one accusation because it is cheaper to just get rid of you even if you are innocent. Frankly, I think he is not being cautious enough because the term "sexual harassment" has also moved into the realm of disagreement. Maybe you don't like her work and criticize it or maybe you are her boss and not agreeing with her performance. Most women quickly figure the criticism is being levied because he is overtly professional with them and also because they are women. I have had many women come to me and tell me these stories with this line of reasoning. Most women aren't like this but the threat model the OP is using is legitimate. In 2017, if you get accused, you are done. Your family is done. Just move to Bermuda and retire. It is not something you can recover from. > we do walking meetings around the block in public areas. Please don't do this.
    • andai 9y ago
      Not cautious enough?
    • egwynn 9y ago
      Yes, accusations were what I had in mind when I framed it as “threat model” in the question. it is cheaper to just get rid of you even if you are innocent Is it? One clearly has some value to their employer. Replacing an employee isn’t free either. It’s also not “free” to add social friction to interactions with one's coworkers. As best I know, this has never happened to anyone in / near my social network. That leads me to believe that this isn’t something that happens very often in the general population (unless I’m an outlier). And if it’s so rare, then it doesn’t seem to be worth going out of my way for.
• gdulli 9y ago
  What's your insinuation about being alone with a woman being unsafe? That you don't trust yourself not to do something inappropriate or that you don't trust the woman not to make up a false accusation? When you go shopping do you take a chaperone so as to keep yourself out of a potentially unsafe shoplifting situation? We're all always adjacent to a potential crime or difficult situation. But we're not supposed to live in fear of them.
  • abiox 9y ago
    > What's your insinuation about being alone with a woman being unsafe? That you don't trust yourself not to do something inappropriate or that you don't trust the woman not to make up a false accusation? it's not an insinuation, it's risk mitigation.
  • ghostbrainalpha 9y ago
    I am not worried that if I'm alone with a woman I will suddenly become a monster. I'm also not really worried about false accusations. What I'm really worried about is keeping myself out of situations where mutual feelings of physical attraction develop. This could lead to situations that threaten my work and family. I had an uncle who was a Catholic priest. They are not allowed to spend time alone with nuns, and I think its the same idea. Back to your analogy.... I don't bring a chaperone to the grocery store to prevent myself from shoplifting. But I definitely bring my wallet. I also try to shop AFTER dinner rather than BEFORE, because when I shop while hungry it completely changes my buying behavior. I view this as the same thing. I want to provide fertile ground for the type of relationships that I want to have, and make it difficult for the kinds that I am avoiding to even get started.
• gregpilling 9y ago
  This clip is relevant to today's issue. Men can accuse just as easily. American Beauty How to Quit a Job With Kevin Spacey https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psNuJuaYqVU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psNuJuaYqVU
• s17n 9y ago
  Easy fix: just apply the same rule to men and women. If you don't do that, then yeah you're a jerk.
• cisanti 9y ago
  "I don't ever comment on their physical appearance even if they got a great hair cut." Why is that? I'm not American so I don't understand, is it because of self-defense against allegations or because you see it inappropriate? Either way, I think you guys are a bit nuts over there, avoiding normal human interaction between genders, or people in general, is the solution?
  • ghostbrainalpha 9y ago
    Compliments on physical appearance can signal some type of sexual interest. I give PLENTY of compliments throughout the day. But I keep it limited to someone's thought's, actions, attitude, and quality of work.
    • cisanti 9y ago
      You guys are crazy over there if you're afraid of "signals", whatever that means.
      • ghostbrainalpha 9y ago
        How do you let someone know that you are romantically interested in them? Basically I try not to do anything that would be confused with one of those things.
• vfulco 9y ago
  And in a zero tolerance corporation, you could still be whacked after decades of service, because someone says so.
• marchenko 9y ago
  These seem like reasonable precautions that don't disproportionately affect womens' access to your time and expertise. They probably help some women feel more comfortable as well.