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Following these very visible and high profile falls from grace, in politics, media and entertainment, and high tech, there must be some legitimate concerns that

Following these very visible and high profile falls from grace, in politics, media and entertainment, and high tech, there must be some legitimate concerns that in the near future the Billy Graham rule [1] (or lately called the Graham-Pence rule) will find more followers than before. Many men in power will instinctually and subconsciously cut out women from their professional lives more than before, to the detriment of women's career advancement. Polls [2] suggest that this isn't a rare position even today. Mitigating this next challenge should be part of the current successful campaign that women and allies of women have been waging today, since even though to some it will be clear that basic attitudes of respect and professional distance will suffice, many others will make a fear-driven overreaction. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Graham_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Graham_rule [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/upshot/members-of-the-opposite-sex-at-work-gender-study.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/upshot/members-of-the-opp...

s73ver_ 9y ago
I think we then need to cut those people out. If you're not professional enough to be able to meet with anyone one-on-one, and not do anything, then you don't deserve a position in leadership.
- nothrabannosir 9y ago
  > and not do anything, His point was: "... and not fear to ever be accused of anything,"
  - s73ver_ 9y ago
    And if you're that afraid, you need to ask yourself why.
    - shifter 9y ago
      There are some terrible people out there that will lie to get what they want (c.f. borderline personality disorder, sociopaths, etc.). They exist in large quantities in the business world. I've been on the receiving end of false (non-harassment) accusations and it sucks. I now take precautions to prevent that from happening again and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that BPD or sociopath women would use false harassment accusations to achieve their means.
- shifter 9y ago
  Every action has a reaction. SJWs beware.
ghostbrainalpha 9y ago
I know this might not be a popular opinion. But I've basically instituted a modified version of this rule for myself. Billy Graham and Mike Pence are definitely not a fountain a good ideas, but that doesn't mean this rule is that bad, despite the nonsense place it comes from. Whenever I need to have after work dinner/social communication with a female associate after 5:00pm, I just go out of my way to invite another woman so she won't be alone. If that is not an option I will try to make it a bigger group with men and women. I never shut the door to my office when I am with a woman. If we need to have a private conversation, we do walking meetings around the block in public areas. This may be shutting some women out of the intense bonding that some male colleges have, but I'm not interested in friendships with men from work either, so I don't think I'm being unfair to anyone. I also don't stand too close to women. I don't ever comment on their physical appearance even if they got a great hair cut. And I don't need to hug anyone I work with ever. Maybe this makes me a jerk. But I feel like it keeps the relationships I care about most (those with my family) safe.
- astura 9y ago
  I don't understand why you think it makes you a jerk, most of what you said I'd simply include simply under "being professional."
  - shifter 9y ago
    A lot of feminists think this denies networking opportunities for women.
    - gozur88 9y ago
      The feminists created the environment in which it becomes the smart thing to do.
      - nothrabannosir 9y ago
        No, the people committing sexual assault did.
pvg 9y ago
Who is it that 'must' be having this 'legitimate' concern? Even in the poll and wikipedia page you cited, the primary driver for the concern is sexist beliefs of a religious nature, not some response to recent high-profile accusations of misconduct.
egwynn 9y ago
many others will make a fear-driven overreaction. This. The actual risk involved here (job loss due to fraudulent accusations) must be so tiny as to be negligible.
- Alex3917 9y ago
  I'm not convinced the risk of job loss due to false accusations is negligible, but it's hard to see how actually trying to make friends with people would increase that risk.
  - egwynn 9y ago
    It’s just a rough intuition/guess of mine. I tried to think about anyone I’ve heard of (in/near my social network) who’d lost a job due to any accusations at all. Two came to mind, both with smoking-gun evidence. Even if I knew five people who were dismissed on claims alone (which would still probably be a mix of true and false claims), that’d still put the fraction at well under one percent.
- tscs37 9y ago
  Humans don't work by actual risk and rather by perceived risk.
aero142 9y ago
I understand the fear of men being accused of harassment and losing their career over a he said, she said. However, the stories coming out recently look nothing like a he said she said. I'm not aware of any the recent allegations being based on two professionals meeting alone for a professional discussion and the woman accusing the man of harassment. There seems to be a lot of invitations back to hotel rooms, or numerous, numerous women claiming groping and outright sexual assault. The facts on the accusations here are not public, as far as I'm aware, so I can't speak to this allegation specifically. But to imply that men need to not have normal business interactions with women to protect from this doesn't seem to match up with the facts here and sounds like FUD that does a disservice to women who deal with real harassment.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
s17n 9y ago
These guys are all pretty obviously guilty, so I don't see the need to worry. Just follow two simple rules and you'll be fine: 1. Don't sexually assault / harass anybody. 2. Maintain clear boundaries with anybody you have a position of power over - even if it seems completely consensual you just can't hook up or have a romantic relationship with them.
- Overtonwindow 9y ago
  That's easier said than done. Sexual harassment is used as a weapon, but so is the accusation of harassment. I do not put it past women to fabricate these things to get their way. The danger is just too high because as a man, regardless of the accusation, or circumstances, we are guilty until proven innocent. It takes an enormous amount of evidence to clear a man from a wrongful accusation made by a woman. There's just too much risk to even take a chance.
  - s17n 9y ago
    What's easier said than done exactly?
- jparse 9y ago
  I am not sure SFJ is guilty. Basically, he was overly critical of ideas and pitches he received. The opposing party had their feelings hurt which they attribute to them being female.
  - s17n 9y ago
    Well given that afaik nothing has been said publicly, there's not much to discuss, but I doubt that he would have been ousted from DFJ without a reason. It is of course possible that this is DFJ freaking out and cutting him loose despite his innocence but that is not the most likely explanation.
    - xray123 9y ago
      Witnessed firsthand Jurvetson say wildly inappropriate thing to female VC he literally just met. He remarked about her necklace that it looked like a choker and did she also have "a ballgag"? He also used to flash a slide in his standard pitch deck, which he presented all over the world, about the impressive "software" at DFJ. The slide would show a photo of all the young female exec assts. He would then pause and smile to an audience of predominantly men. Usually it wouldn't get any laughs; not sure if anyone really appreciated the joke. Steve is a brilliant visionary but clearly has some difficulty understanding right from wrong behavior. On some level I feel sorry for him but I unhesitatingly believe DFJ ousted him due to the mountain of evidence they uncovered during their investigation.
ringaroundthetx 9y ago
Or reputation insurance products pick up, anybody interested? Asking for a VC
Overtonwindow 9y ago
I avoid women in my professional life as much as I possible can. My work is in politics, and if I absolutely must work with a woman, I do all I can to make that interaction as open, transparent, documented, and inclusive with others as possible. You will never catch me alone in an office with a woman. I know colleagues who refuse to even interview or consider women for positions because they are afraid of anything that might be said or implied later, and becoming a liability.
- sitkack 9y ago
  The breadth of thoughts you allow yourself is limiting your mind.
- susanrigetti 9y ago
  Yeahhhh, so refusing to interview or consider women for positions is very much against the law in the United States. Might not want to do that.
  - vfulco 9y ago
    Yeah, well the laws in the US have become so convoluted, if they want to get you, they'll find something you are guilty of. Same as Orwell and Huxley predicted.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
jaredklewis 9y ago
I think there is always a chance that a sociopath will plot to ruin your life for no perceivable self gain. A tiny, tiny chance. I’m skeptical of the actual efficacy of such strategies, like the “Pence” rule, but the main point is that designing your whole life so as to minimize the attack surface for sociopaths is completely insane. It would be like never leaving your house so as to reduce the chance of dying in a terrorist attack. And better not meet with any men either, as men can also accuse you of groping them, amazingly enough. In many ways it seems like the Republican campaign against “voter fraud” or similar: a solution so obviously in search of a problem, that one seems sure there must be some ulterior motive.

s73ver_ 9y ago

I think we then need to cut those people out. If you're not professional enough to be able to meet with anyone one-on-one, and not do anything, then you don't deserve a position in leadership.

nothrabannosir 9y ago
> and not do anything, His point was: "... and not fear to ever be accused of anything,"
- s73ver_ 9y ago
  And if you're that afraid, you need to ask yourself why.
  - shifter 9y ago
    There are some terrible people out there that will lie to get what they want (c.f. borderline personality disorder, sociopaths, etc.). They exist in large quantities in the business world. I've been on the receiving end of false (non-harassment) accusations and it sucks. I now take precautions to prevent that from happening again and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that BPD or sociopath women would use false harassment accusations to achieve their means.
shifter 9y ago
Every action has a reaction. SJWs beware.

ghostbrainalpha 9y ago

I know this might not be a popular opinion. But I've basically instituted a modified version of this rule for myself. Billy Graham and Mike Pence are definitely not a fountain a good ideas, but that doesn't mean this rule is that bad, despite the nonsense place it comes from. Whenever I need to have after work dinner/social communication with a female associate after 5:00pm, I just go out of my way to invite another woman so she won't be alone. If that is not an option I will try to make it a bigger group with men and women. I never shut the door to my office when I am with a woman. If we need to have a private conversation, we do walking meetings around the block in public areas. This may be shutting some women out of the intense bonding that some male colleges have, but I'm not interested in friendships with men from work either, so I don't think I'm being unfair to anyone. I also don't stand too close to women. I don't ever comment on their physical appearance even if they got a great hair cut. And I don't need to hug anyone I work with ever. Maybe this makes me a jerk. But I feel like it keeps the relationships I care about most (those with my family) safe.

astura 9y ago
I don't understand why you think it makes you a jerk, most of what you said I'd simply include simply under "being professional."
- shifter 9y ago
  A lot of feminists think this denies networking opportunities for women.
  - gozur88 9y ago
    The feminists created the environment in which it becomes the smart thing to do.
    - nothrabannosir 9y ago
      No, the people committing sexual assault did.

pvg 9y ago

Who is it that 'must' be having this 'legitimate' concern? Even in the poll and wikipedia page you cited, the primary driver for the concern is sexist beliefs of a religious nature, not some response to recent high-profile accusations of misconduct.

egwynn 9y ago

many others will make a fear-driven overreaction. This. The actual risk involved here (job loss due to fraudulent accusations) must be so tiny as to be negligible.

Alex3917 9y ago
I'm not convinced the risk of job loss due to false accusations is negligible, but it's hard to see how actually trying to make friends with people would increase that risk.
- egwynn 9y ago
  It’s just a rough intuition/guess of mine. I tried to think about anyone I’ve heard of (in/near my social network) who’d lost a job due to any accusations at all. Two came to mind, both with smoking-gun evidence. Even if I knew five people who were dismissed on claims alone (which would still probably be a mix of true and false claims), that’d still put the fraction at well under one percent.
tscs37 9y ago
Humans don't work by actual risk and rather by perceived risk.

aero142 9y ago

I understand the fear of men being accused of harassment and losing their career over a he said, she said. However, the stories coming out recently look nothing like a he said she said. I'm not aware of any the recent allegations being based on two professionals meeting alone for a professional discussion and the woman accusing the man of harassment. There seems to be a lot of invitations back to hotel rooms, or numerous, numerous women claiming groping and outright sexual assault. The facts on the accusations here are not public, as far as I'm aware, so I can't speak to this allegation specifically. But to imply that men need to not have normal business interactions with women to protect from this doesn't seem to match up with the facts here and sounds like FUD that does a disservice to women who deal with real harassment.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

s17n 9y ago

These guys are all pretty obviously guilty, so I don't see the need to worry. Just follow two simple rules and you'll be fine: 1. Don't sexually assault / harass anybody. 2. Maintain clear boundaries with anybody you have a position of power over - even if it seems completely consensual you just can't hook up or have a romantic relationship with them.

Overtonwindow 9y ago
That's easier said than done. Sexual harassment is used as a weapon, but so is the accusation of harassment. I do not put it past women to fabricate these things to get their way. The danger is just too high because as a man, regardless of the accusation, or circumstances, we are guilty until proven innocent. It takes an enormous amount of evidence to clear a man from a wrongful accusation made by a woman. There's just too much risk to even take a chance.
- s17n 9y ago
  What's easier said than done exactly?
jparse 9y ago
I am not sure SFJ is guilty. Basically, he was overly critical of ideas and pitches he received. The opposing party had their feelings hurt which they attribute to them being female.
- s17n 9y ago
  Well given that afaik nothing has been said publicly, there's not much to discuss, but I doubt that he would have been ousted from DFJ without a reason. It is of course possible that this is DFJ freaking out and cutting him loose despite his innocence but that is not the most likely explanation.
  - xray123 9y ago
    Witnessed firsthand Jurvetson say wildly inappropriate thing to female VC he literally just met. He remarked about her necklace that it looked like a choker and did she also have "a ballgag"? He also used to flash a slide in his standard pitch deck, which he presented all over the world, about the impressive "software" at DFJ. The slide would show a photo of all the young female exec assts. He would then pause and smile to an audience of predominantly men. Usually it wouldn't get any laughs; not sure if anyone really appreciated the joke. Steve is a brilliant visionary but clearly has some difficulty understanding right from wrong behavior. On some level I feel sorry for him but I unhesitatingly believe DFJ ousted him due to the mountain of evidence they uncovered during their investigation.

ringaroundthetx 9y ago

Or reputation insurance products pick up, anybody interested? Asking for a VC

Overtonwindow 9y ago

I avoid women in my professional life as much as I possible can. My work is in politics, and if I absolutely must work with a woman, I do all I can to make that interaction as open, transparent, documented, and inclusive with others as possible. You will never catch me alone in an office with a woman. I know colleagues who refuse to even interview or consider women for positions because they are afraid of anything that might be said or implied later, and becoming a liability.

sitkack 9y ago
The breadth of thoughts you allow yourself is limiting your mind.
susanrigetti 9y ago
Yeahhhh, so refusing to interview or consider women for positions is very much against the law in the United States. Might not want to do that.
- vfulco 9y ago
  Yeah, well the laws in the US have become so convoluted, if they want to get you, they'll find something you are guilty of. Same as Orwell and Huxley predicted.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

jaredklewis 9y ago

I think there is always a chance that a sociopath will plot to ruin your life for no perceivable self gain. A tiny, tiny chance. I’m skeptical of the actual efficacy of such strategies, like the “Pence” rule, but the main point is that designing your whole life so as to minimize the attack surface for sociopaths is completely insane. It would be like never leaving your house so as to reduce the chance of dying in a terrorist attack. And better not meet with any men either, as men can also accuse you of groping them, amazingly enough. In many ways it seems like the Republican campaign against “voter fraud” or similar: a solution so obviously in search of a problem, that one seems sure there must be some ulterior motive.