7 ms·

Lyft's first expansion outside the USA in Toronto next month

117 points by annapurna 9y ago

annapurna 9y ago
With recent investments in both Lyft and Uber, it will be interesting to see how Lyft executes on it's international expansion. > John Zimmer, Lyft’s president and co-founder says 5,000 Torontonians downloaded the app this year with no service available. > Uber has become part of Toronto’s transportation scene, with almost 50,000 drivers — many part-time — and new services including food delivery. > Kristine Hubbard, Beck Taxi’s operations manager, expects Lyft’s entry to worsen Toronto gridlock. “It’s another reason to encourage cars to cruise the streets of our city — many of them who come from outside it — who otherwise wouldn’t be there.”
- sbarre 9y ago
  Beck has been waging a pretty high-profile PR war against ride-sharing in this city.. But Beck Taxi are also the face of everything that's wrong with taxis in Toronto, so most people here don't take their position very seriously, and they do not have much goodwill from the population (or from taxi operators in a lot of cases). That said, in the last few months whenever I talk to my Uber driver about "how things are going", the majority of them complain about slowing business, and making less money and getting less rides.. It seems like, anecdotally speaking, the downtown area in particular is pretty saturated with drivers, and while this is great for riders (I almost never wait more than 2-3 minutes no matter where I am), it's probably less great for drivers.
  - annapurna 9y ago
    Yeah, Beck's been fighting a losing battle. Once I called them to give it a shot and they made me wait for 15 minutes. To be fair, the taxi did arrive and I was not in any rush so overall, the delay didn't matter much. However, that's probably the last time I'll call them unless something changes drastically. I also just noticed they have released an app. Curious how's the experience is on it so far.
    - sbarre 9y ago
      The Beck app is basically just a text interface to their human dispatcher.. Last time I used it (admittedly over a year ago) it was not very responsive (very poor UX) and didn't seem to have any advantage over calling.
nugget 9y ago
I've noticed that Uber seems to have much more competitive pricing in markets (especially airports) where Lyft is also present, compared to markets where they are the only provider. So personally I would welcome Lyft's rapid international expansion.
- annapurna 9y ago
  Agreed. I fly YYZ-LGA route frequently and notice the differences. Would love to have Lyft (or any other competitor) here in Toronto.
  - vimarshk 9y ago
    As Uber is not available at YYZ. I do feel Lyft will have the same issue. Politics of money will always play a huge role in this country.
- tw04 9y ago
  That's because in general Uber is selling at a loss in those markets to try to drive Lyft out of business. Hence why they're burning through cash like an 18 year-old lottery winner. It's unsustainable and hopefully Lyft can weather it.
  - malandrew 9y ago
    > selling at a loss in those markets to try to drive Lyft out of business. Leaked financials show that Lyft is selling at a far greater loss than Uber. Based on Q2 leaked figures, Uber's losses relative to gross bookings was -8% and Lyft's was 13.5%.
    - zwily 9y ago
      In aggregate yes, but it would be interesting to know what Uber’s numbers are for just the markets where they compete with Lyft.
      - 9y ago
joeblau 9y ago
> “At the end of the day, I’m available to the highest bidder.” I've heard that a lot from drivers all over the U.S. They run both apps and whichever gives them the next ride, they take.
thisisit 9y ago
> Khalid Ahmed, 31, says he makes about $30 an hour, less expenses, as an occasional driver for Uber. He plans to switch to Lyft. >"It’s new, it’s fresh. It’s like waiting in line for the new iPhone — I’ve got to have it,” he said with a laugh. He also likes the company’s mission statement and driver incentives. “At the end of the day, I’m available to the highest bidder.” Are Lyft's incentive better than Uber? Or is that they are better because they are the underdogs? AFAIK many drivers service all ride share apps at any given time.
- adjkant 9y ago
  Lyft tends to pay better than Uber. Have asked drivers who drive for both in about 5-6 cities, all same answer. Lyft is the one you want to drive for.
  - njj023 9y ago
    You are completely misinformed. Most drivers do both. Get on reddit.com/r/lyft or reddit.com/r/uberdrivers and you will get a sense that post tipping + changes Uber has made, the scale has entirely tipped. Lyft has certainly done an excellent job building up the perception that they are better for drivers and convincing consumers of the same. In fact, this is on the front page of r/lyft today - https://www.reddit.com/r/Lyft/comments/7c234g/is_lyft_unethical/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Lyft/comments/7c234g/is_lyft_unethi...
    - adjkant 9y ago
      I'm just reporting anecdotal evidence from drivers. The drivers I asked had signage for both on their cars, I did not deny that most drive for both. Said survey was before Uber introduced tipping.
TorKlingberg 9y ago
About time. While Uber is available in almost every major city around the world, Lyft has been US only. I wonder why Lyft is so far behind. Is it just a matter of investment capital?
- martinald 9y ago
  Agreed, I can't understand why they haven't expanded to London (UK) yet. Uber completely dominates the market for ride sharing.
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    Uber recently had their license to operate in London, UK revoked, and it was also ruled that their drivers are employees not ICs. It’s a market that requires more preparedness before entering.
- kitcar 9y ago
  I believe it is because they are hesitant to blatantly disregard local laws - it's part of their brand persona, they try to be seen as the "nicer uber" - hence they try to play nice with the jurisdictions they expand to, resulting in slower expansion. https://a16z.com/2017/09/25/government-relations-local-lyft/ https://a16z.com/2017/09/25/government-relations-local-lyft/
  - yeukhon 9y ago
    Certainly a factor, but honestly, I really think this is about building up the business. Uber burns so much money through its quick expansion. You could be the first, one and only one entirely, and last standing, but what really matters is to be the last standing right? The way I see it is Uber has proven shared riding is a great business to build, so Lyft just let Uber paved the way (bring shared riding) and bring shared riding to the rest of the world, while Lyft builds up a competent team in the U.S, then take advantage of shared riding momentum.. In a way think of Lfyt taking a shared ride with Uber but the last to pick up.
  - malandrew 9y ago
mabbo 9y ago
Can't wait. I've used Uber frequently for a long time, but every other story in the news about them is that their leadership are just terrible human beings. I don't want to deal with them as a company. Much like the drivers, I simply want what Uber is offering and have no loyalty to the company itself. If Lyft wants to come to Toronto and offer the same thing without being Uber, I'll gladly switch.
- t1o5 9y ago
  I would use Lyft or Uber in Toronto, whichever is convenient at that point of time. If you start to boycott companies which are not ethical in doing their business, well almost all companies are. Lets start with Amazon with their sweat shop warehouses, Garment manufacturing outsourced to workers in Bangladesh working in deadly conditions. No corporations are saints.
  - dantheman 9y ago
    It's important to choose companies that you like - and behavior is a key component of that. Sometimes you have no choice but to deal with unfavorable companies, but if there is an option you should consider all aspects when purchasing.
  - adjkant 9y ago
    To add to the sibling comment here, when you have a realistic choice, you can choose the better one. Lyft is a clear matching competitor, and if you can afford any small price differences, you have no excuses. Amazon doesn't really have a competitor. While some can afford fair trade clothing, most cannot. Just because no company is perfect and sometimes supporting pretty shitty practices is more or less unavoidable doesn't mean you have no choice in every scenario every time.
  - ahoy 9y ago
    (This isn't meant as a personal attack on the parent comment. Their opinion is common and I've held it myself in the past) I really dislike this line of thinking. It's profoundly cynical and sees change as impossible. Corporations do bad things. I can comment on that and refuse to do business with some of them and not others. I don't have to uproot my whole life and become a mountain ascetic to earn the moral purity necessary to acknowledge a single evil. We can address one bad thing without addressing every bad thing at once.
james_pm 9y ago
Excellent news. I dropped Uber because of how they run their business. My experience with Lyft in US cities has been excellent. Uber could use some competition in Toronto as well (outside of our generally terrible taxis).
- rfeather 9y ago
  I'm so glad to hear I'm not alone in avoiding Uber for being unethical. I hope this is more widespread than just the HN crowd, but generally I get the impression that most folks just aren't aware/don't care about corporate behavior.
ChrisArchitect 9y ago
Meh. I think I will continue to use Uber because from what I can tell, and what annoyingly no one seems to talk about in this conversation, is the difference in the services/experience. The user experience of taking a ride is not the same/not as seamless because you have to do all this payment/tip stuff at the end. Uber has always been a hail/get in/get out experience. No incentive to change to Lyft
- nametube 9y ago
  could you elaborate on that ? I've never used Lyft but i think it works just like uber. this is what i found on their site How Much Does a Lyft Ride Cost? Depends on where you’re headed and when. There is a base charge and a cost per mile and per minute, with extra added on when your pickup point is in Prime Time, which happens during higher-than-normal demand to encourage drivers to get on the road. For price estimates of rides in your city, check out the Lyft city page. Oh, and never worry about carrying cash — payment happens seamlessly through the app. https://blog.lyft.com/posts/how-does-lyft-work https://blog.lyft.com/posts/how-does-lyft-work
- an_account 9y ago
  You’re misinformed. It’s nearly exactly the same as Uber, especially now that Uber does tip. You just get out of the car at the end. Next time you open the app you either rate and tip or just rate.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- jordanlev 9y ago
  I use both Lyft and Uber regularly, and it's the exact same experience (except that the Uber app/system periodically decides to not process my request for unknown reasons).
- ChrisArchitect 9y ago
  and ok, fine, if the experience is exactly the same - what's the incentive to switch or even set up the second app? Uber wins on first in, same as if anyone local remembers, Hailo eventually gave up and pulled out of the city because couldn't get users over etc
vmarsy 9y ago
I don't know if this is the same in every cities, but here in Seattle using Uber is becoming very annoying: in the past rides we tried getting in the past few weeks, the original wait time shows something like 2 or 3 minutes, but as soon as the ride is found it jumps to 7-8 minutes. And that stays blocked on this time for a couple minutes (or sometimes increase!). In the meantime, for Lyft rides it seems to be the opposite, usually we have to wait less than a minute for rides from the same place. This didn't use to be the case, I'm wondering if the majority of drivers have now switched to Lyft .
- rjuyal 9y ago
  I have exactly opposite experience in Seattle. Almost always Lyft's estimated time of arrival is way off the charts.
sol_remmy 9y ago
Fantastic news. I dropped Uber because of how they organize their business. My experience with Lyft in US cities has been fantastic. Uber could use some competition in Canada as well (outside of our generally terrible taxis).
- dmix 9y ago
  The competition will most certainly result in coupons with free/discounted rides and other benefits like the old Hailo vs Uber days, before Hailo left Toronto... A large part of Uber's ability to act without regard for public scrutiny was the fact they were frequently the only horse in town for most cities. The tech press in SF is often isolated from this reality. This competition from Lyft is a great counter balance for Uber, without having to rely on the heavy-handed counter-weight of government-backed last-era taxi conglomerates/unions.
caycep 9y ago
Granted my experience in Toronto and Montreal are that cabs are easy to come by, relatively inexpensive and accept NFC payments...so maybe on the consumer side they have less cruft than US cab companies and may be less immune to complete disruption by the big rideshare companies

117 points by annapurna 9y ago

With recent investments in both Lyft and Uber, it will be interesting to see how Lyft executes on it's international expansion. > John Zimmer, Lyft’s president and co-founder says 5,000 Torontonians downloaded the app this year with no service available. > Uber has become part of Toronto’s transportation scene, with almost 50,000 drivers — many part-time — and new services including food delivery. > Kristine Hubbard, Beck Taxi’s operations manager, expects Lyft’s entry to worsen Toronto gridlock. “It’s another reason to encourage cars to cruise the streets of our city — many of them who come from outside it — who otherwise wouldn’t be there.”

sbarre 9y ago
Beck has been waging a pretty high-profile PR war against ride-sharing in this city.. But Beck Taxi are also the face of everything that's wrong with taxis in Toronto, so most people here don't take their position very seriously, and they do not have much goodwill from the population (or from taxi operators in a lot of cases). That said, in the last few months whenever I talk to my Uber driver about "how things are going", the majority of them complain about slowing business, and making less money and getting less rides.. It seems like, anecdotally speaking, the downtown area in particular is pretty saturated with drivers, and while this is great for riders (I almost never wait more than 2-3 minutes no matter where I am), it's probably less great for drivers.
- annapurna 9y ago
  Yeah, Beck's been fighting a losing battle. Once I called them to give it a shot and they made me wait for 15 minutes. To be fair, the taxi did arrive and I was not in any rush so overall, the delay didn't matter much. However, that's probably the last time I'll call them unless something changes drastically. I also just noticed they have released an app. Curious how's the experience is on it so far.
  - sbarre 9y ago
    The Beck app is basically just a text interface to their human dispatcher.. Last time I used it (admittedly over a year ago) it was not very responsive (very poor UX) and didn't seem to have any advantage over calling.

nugget 9y ago

I've noticed that Uber seems to have much more competitive pricing in markets (especially airports) where Lyft is also present, compared to markets where they are the only provider. So personally I would welcome Lyft's rapid international expansion.

annapurna 9y ago
Agreed. I fly YYZ-LGA route frequently and notice the differences. Would love to have Lyft (or any other competitor) here in Toronto.
- vimarshk 9y ago
  As Uber is not available at YYZ. I do feel Lyft will have the same issue. Politics of money will always play a huge role in this country.
tw04 9y ago
That's because in general Uber is selling at a loss in those markets to try to drive Lyft out of business. Hence why they're burning through cash like an 18 year-old lottery winner. It's unsustainable and hopefully Lyft can weather it.
- malandrew 9y ago
  > selling at a loss in those markets to try to drive Lyft out of business. Leaked financials show that Lyft is selling at a far greater loss than Uber. Based on Q2 leaked figures, Uber's losses relative to gross bookings was -8% and Lyft's was 13.5%.
  - zwily 9y ago
    In aggregate yes, but it would be interesting to know what Uber’s numbers are for just the markets where they compete with Lyft.
    - 9y ago

joeblau 9y ago

> “At the end of the day, I’m available to the highest bidder.” I've heard that a lot from drivers all over the U.S. They run both apps and whichever gives them the next ride, they take.

thisisit 9y ago

> Khalid Ahmed, 31, says he makes about $30 an hour, less expenses, as an occasional driver for Uber. He plans to switch to Lyft. >"It’s new, it’s fresh. It’s like waiting in line for the new iPhone — I’ve got to have it,” he said with a laugh. He also likes the company’s mission statement and driver incentives. “At the end of the day, I’m available to the highest bidder.” Are Lyft's incentive better than Uber? Or is that they are better because they are the underdogs? AFAIK many drivers service all ride share apps at any given time.

adjkant 9y ago
Lyft tends to pay better than Uber. Have asked drivers who drive for both in about 5-6 cities, all same answer. Lyft is the one you want to drive for.
- njj023 9y ago
  You are completely misinformed. Most drivers do both. Get on reddit.com/r/lyft or reddit.com/r/uberdrivers and you will get a sense that post tipping + changes Uber has made, the scale has entirely tipped. Lyft has certainly done an excellent job building up the perception that they are better for drivers and convincing consumers of the same. In fact, this is on the front page of r/lyft today - https://www.reddit.com/r/Lyft/comments/7c234g/is_lyft_unethical/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Lyft/comments/7c234g/is_lyft_unethi...
  - adjkant 9y ago
    I'm just reporting anecdotal evidence from drivers. The drivers I asked had signage for both on their cars, I did not deny that most drive for both. Said survey was before Uber introduced tipping.

TorKlingberg 9y ago

About time. While Uber is available in almost every major city around the world, Lyft has been US only. I wonder why Lyft is so far behind. Is it just a matter of investment capital?

martinald 9y ago
Agreed, I can't understand why they haven't expanded to London (UK) yet. Uber completely dominates the market for ride sharing.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  Uber recently had their license to operate in London, UK revoked, and it was also ruled that their drivers are employees not ICs. It’s a market that requires more preparedness before entering.
kitcar 9y ago
I believe it is because they are hesitant to blatantly disregard local laws - it's part of their brand persona, they try to be seen as the "nicer uber" - hence they try to play nice with the jurisdictions they expand to, resulting in slower expansion. https://a16z.com/2017/09/25/government-relations-local-lyft/ https://a16z.com/2017/09/25/government-relations-local-lyft/
- yeukhon 9y ago
  Certainly a factor, but honestly, I really think this is about building up the business. Uber burns so much money through its quick expansion. You could be the first, one and only one entirely, and last standing, but what really matters is to be the last standing right? The way I see it is Uber has proven shared riding is a great business to build, so Lyft just let Uber paved the way (bring shared riding) and bring shared riding to the rest of the world, while Lyft builds up a competent team in the U.S, then take advantage of shared riding momentum.. In a way think of Lfyt taking a shared ride with Uber but the last to pick up.
- malandrew 9y ago

mabbo 9y ago

Can't wait. I've used Uber frequently for a long time, but every other story in the news about them is that their leadership are just terrible human beings. I don't want to deal with them as a company. Much like the drivers, I simply want what Uber is offering and have no loyalty to the company itself. If Lyft wants to come to Toronto and offer the same thing without being Uber, I'll gladly switch.

t1o5 9y ago
I would use Lyft or Uber in Toronto, whichever is convenient at that point of time. If you start to boycott companies which are not ethical in doing their business, well almost all companies are. Lets start with Amazon with their sweat shop warehouses, Garment manufacturing outsourced to workers in Bangladesh working in deadly conditions. No corporations are saints.
- dantheman 9y ago
  It's important to choose companies that you like - and behavior is a key component of that. Sometimes you have no choice but to deal with unfavorable companies, but if there is an option you should consider all aspects when purchasing.
- adjkant 9y ago
  To add to the sibling comment here, when you have a realistic choice, you can choose the better one. Lyft is a clear matching competitor, and if you can afford any small price differences, you have no excuses. Amazon doesn't really have a competitor. While some can afford fair trade clothing, most cannot. Just because no company is perfect and sometimes supporting pretty shitty practices is more or less unavoidable doesn't mean you have no choice in every scenario every time.
- ahoy 9y ago
  (This isn't meant as a personal attack on the parent comment. Their opinion is common and I've held it myself in the past) I really dislike this line of thinking. It's profoundly cynical and sees change as impossible. Corporations do bad things. I can comment on that and refuse to do business with some of them and not others. I don't have to uproot my whole life and become a mountain ascetic to earn the moral purity necessary to acknowledge a single evil. We can address one bad thing without addressing every bad thing at once.

james_pm 9y ago

Excellent news. I dropped Uber because of how they run their business. My experience with Lyft in US cities has been excellent. Uber could use some competition in Toronto as well (outside of our generally terrible taxis).

rfeather 9y ago
I'm so glad to hear I'm not alone in avoiding Uber for being unethical. I hope this is more widespread than just the HN crowd, but generally I get the impression that most folks just aren't aware/don't care about corporate behavior.

ChrisArchitect 9y ago

Meh. I think I will continue to use Uber because from what I can tell, and what annoyingly no one seems to talk about in this conversation, is the difference in the services/experience. The user experience of taking a ride is not the same/not as seamless because you have to do all this payment/tip stuff at the end. Uber has always been a hail/get in/get out experience. No incentive to change to Lyft

nametube 9y ago
could you elaborate on that ? I've never used Lyft but i think it works just like uber. this is what i found on their site How Much Does a Lyft Ride Cost? Depends on where you’re headed and when. There is a base charge and a cost per mile and per minute, with extra added on when your pickup point is in Prime Time, which happens during higher-than-normal demand to encourage drivers to get on the road. For price estimates of rides in your city, check out the Lyft city page. Oh, and never worry about carrying cash — payment happens seamlessly through the app. https://blog.lyft.com/posts/how-does-lyft-work https://blog.lyft.com/posts/how-does-lyft-work
an_account 9y ago
You’re misinformed. It’s nearly exactly the same as Uber, especially now that Uber does tip. You just get out of the car at the end. Next time you open the app you either rate and tip or just rate.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
jordanlev 9y ago
I use both Lyft and Uber regularly, and it's the exact same experience (except that the Uber app/system periodically decides to not process my request for unknown reasons).
ChrisArchitect 9y ago
and ok, fine, if the experience is exactly the same - what's the incentive to switch or even set up the second app? Uber wins on first in, same as if anyone local remembers, Hailo eventually gave up and pulled out of the city because couldn't get users over etc

vmarsy 9y ago

I don't know if this is the same in every cities, but here in Seattle using Uber is becoming very annoying: in the past rides we tried getting in the past few weeks, the original wait time shows something like 2 or 3 minutes, but as soon as the ride is found it jumps to 7-8 minutes. And that stays blocked on this time for a couple minutes (or sometimes increase!). In the meantime, for Lyft rides it seems to be the opposite, usually we have to wait less than a minute for rides from the same place. This didn't use to be the case, I'm wondering if the majority of drivers have now switched to Lyft .

rjuyal 9y ago
I have exactly opposite experience in Seattle. Almost always Lyft's estimated time of arrival is way off the charts.

sol_remmy 9y ago

Fantastic news. I dropped Uber because of how they organize their business. My experience with Lyft in US cities has been fantastic. Uber could use some competition in Canada as well (outside of our generally terrible taxis).

dmix 9y ago
The competition will most certainly result in coupons with free/discounted rides and other benefits like the old Hailo vs Uber days, before Hailo left Toronto... A large part of Uber's ability to act without regard for public scrutiny was the fact they were frequently the only horse in town for most cities. The tech press in SF is often isolated from this reality. This competition from Lyft is a great counter balance for Uber, without having to rely on the heavy-handed counter-weight of government-backed last-era taxi conglomerates/unions.

caycep 9y ago

Granted my experience in Toronto and Montreal are that cabs are easy to come by, relatively inexpensive and accept NFC payments...so maybe on the consumer side they have less cruft than US cab companies and may be less immune to complete disruption by the big rideshare companies