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>Dopamine’s founders argue that they reserve the right to deny service to specific companies whose work seems to be off the level... Just "trust" us. There are

>Dopamine’s founders argue that they reserve the right to deny service to specific companies whose work seems to be off the level... Just "trust" us. There are obviously many teams working on doing this, but never so audacious. These things are definitely not a value add to society, yet very profitable, like e.g. heroin if that doesn't sound too hyperbolic.

api 9y ago
A casino is usually more profitable than a hospital too. It's probably the central problem of capitalism. Monetary systems draw no distinction between wealth creation and wealth extraction, and the second law of thermodynamics guarantees that the latter will always be much easier. When you design chips, cure diseases, or build rockets you are fighting entropy. When you addict, misinform, and con people entropy is on your side.
- Houshalter 9y ago
  Healthcare is a much larger percent of GDP than casinos for what it's worth. But your comment does remind me of http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
  - dredmorbius 9y ago
    And if you add the FIRE industries to that? Or the addiction-feeding elements of healthcare -- opiates and other-than-therapeutic interventions. https://www.selectusa.gov/financial-services-industry-united-states https://www.selectusa.gov/financial-services-industry-united...
- BayesStreet 9y ago
  This article made me pretty sad and made me think of this too. I think what an ethical investor needs to do is not deploy capital to any industries that don't add real economic value or wealth or whatever you want to call it. Also, ethical founders should refuse capital from orgs that fund these projects. Basically starve these projects out, but that's sort of idealistic.
  - AndrewKemendo 9y ago
    don't add real economic value or wealth or whatever you want to call it. Literally an impossible thing to measure because it's subjective. If it makes money is adds wealth so by your standard anything goes.
  - markatkinson 9y ago
    It is interesting how this article had the same affect on a lot of people. I also wasn't too comfortable with their angle or what they are doing.
  - markatkinson 9y ago
    Unfortunately greed often turns people from ethical to not so ethical pretty quickly. Would be nice if the chaps above could create an AI to help with that!
    - intended 9y ago
      We could go to unethical even faster! An unethical AI has more degrees of movement. It will always beat an ethical AI.
- alexasmyths 9y ago
  "When you design chips, cure diseases, or build rockets you are fighting entropy." I've never quite heard 'entropy' used as an argument, and though you might be a little bit correct in some sense of the word ... I don't think it holds true either physically or as an analogy :) But bon-bons for trying. That's my favourite 'most HN comment of the day'.
RAB1138 9y ago
Happy to answer any questions you have! It's all of our job to be transparent about the new tablestakes of design, because that transparency builds exact dialogues like this! It would be more audacious if we didn't publicize what we're doing and these techniques remained the dark patterns that keep people hooked to social apps that have poor alignment to what people actually want out of life!
- s17n 9y ago
  That's great but what is really needed is litigation/legislation.
  - cgmg 9y ago
    Why? On what basis?
    - intended 9y ago
      Because this is not a code problem. It is inherently a people problem. The issue is simply that any fix (by code or by competition), will only move the conflict point from its current location to a new place on the board. Without being able to approach the bad actors and their motivations/incentives directly, you will not be able to effect change. And there is always going to be an incentive to manipulate minds, easily and at scale.
    - s17n 9y ago
      Because the industry is deliberately creating addictive products that happen to be detrimental to the health of the people who use them. Facebook is the biggest offender but any time you hear the term "engagement", that's probably what is going on. This isn't just going to go away, it has to be fought.
- nerdponx 9y ago
  This is how I understand what you're saying: We are building something evil and reprehensible, but we are open about what we are building, and therefore we are better than the other guys who are doing it surreptitiously. Fine, but in that case your product is basically performance art. Bravo, you did a good job raising awareness: now go actually work on fixing the problem instead of pretending like you aren't part of it.
forgottenpass 9y ago
How good can Dopamine's moral compass be if they don't immediately refuse service to anyone who wants to use Dopamine's services?

api 9y ago

A casino is usually more profitable than a hospital too. It's probably the central problem of capitalism. Monetary systems draw no distinction between wealth creation and wealth extraction, and the second law of thermodynamics guarantees that the latter will always be much easier. When you design chips, cure diseases, or build rockets you are fighting entropy. When you addict, misinform, and con people entropy is on your side.

Houshalter 9y ago
Healthcare is a much larger percent of GDP than casinos for what it's worth. But your comment does remind me of http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
- dredmorbius 9y ago
  And if you add the FIRE industries to that? Or the addiction-feeding elements of healthcare -- opiates and other-than-therapeutic interventions. https://www.selectusa.gov/financial-services-industry-united-states https://www.selectusa.gov/financial-services-industry-united...
BayesStreet 9y ago
This article made me pretty sad and made me think of this too. I think what an ethical investor needs to do is not deploy capital to any industries that don't add real economic value or wealth or whatever you want to call it. Also, ethical founders should refuse capital from orgs that fund these projects. Basically starve these projects out, but that's sort of idealistic.
- AndrewKemendo 9y ago
  don't add real economic value or wealth or whatever you want to call it. Literally an impossible thing to measure because it's subjective. If it makes money is adds wealth so by your standard anything goes.
- markatkinson 9y ago
  It is interesting how this article had the same affect on a lot of people. I also wasn't too comfortable with their angle or what they are doing.
- markatkinson 9y ago
  Unfortunately greed often turns people from ethical to not so ethical pretty quickly. Would be nice if the chaps above could create an AI to help with that!
  - intended 9y ago
    We could go to unethical even faster! An unethical AI has more degrees of movement. It will always beat an ethical AI.
alexasmyths 9y ago
"When you design chips, cure diseases, or build rockets you are fighting entropy." I've never quite heard 'entropy' used as an argument, and though you might be a little bit correct in some sense of the word ... I don't think it holds true either physically or as an analogy :) But bon-bons for trying. That's my favourite 'most HN comment of the day'.

RAB1138 9y ago

Happy to answer any questions you have! It's all of our job to be transparent about the new tablestakes of design, because that transparency builds exact dialogues like this! It would be more audacious if we didn't publicize what we're doing and these techniques remained the dark patterns that keep people hooked to social apps that have poor alignment to what people actually want out of life!

s17n 9y ago
That's great but what is really needed is litigation/legislation.
- cgmg 9y ago
  Why? On what basis?
  - intended 9y ago
    Because this is not a code problem. It is inherently a people problem. The issue is simply that any fix (by code or by competition), will only move the conflict point from its current location to a new place on the board. Without being able to approach the bad actors and their motivations/incentives directly, you will not be able to effect change. And there is always going to be an incentive to manipulate minds, easily and at scale.
  - s17n 9y ago
    Because the industry is deliberately creating addictive products that happen to be detrimental to the health of the people who use them. Facebook is the biggest offender but any time you hear the term "engagement", that's probably what is going on. This isn't just going to go away, it has to be fought.
nerdponx 9y ago
This is how I understand what you're saying: We are building something evil and reprehensible, but we are open about what we are building, and therefore we are better than the other guys who are doing it surreptitiously. Fine, but in that case your product is basically performance art. Bravo, you did a good job raising awareness: now go actually work on fixing the problem instead of pretending like you aren't part of it.

forgottenpass 9y ago

How good can Dopamine's moral compass be if they don't immediately refuse service to anyone who wants to use Dopamine's services?