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The stated purpose of the H1-B program is to allow companies to fill vacancies with international applicants if they are unable to find US employees qualified f

The stated purpose of the H1-B program is to allow companies to fill vacancies with international applicants if they are unable to find US employees qualified for the roles. I've never heard any sane, rational person object to this use case. The issue most people have is that the program seems to be rampantly abused. Companies are replacing US workers with H1-B's sourced from companies like Tata and Infosys at much lower salaries than US employees would normally command. In some cases, they're just bringing in foreign workers for the time it takes to train them, then having them work remotely and paying them even less still. Disney even made their US employees train their replacements before laying them off: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff-at-disney-train-foreign-replacements.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff... Southern California Edison was another company that did the same: https://www.computerworld.com/article/2879083/it-outsourcing/southern-california-edison-it-workers-beyond-furious-over-h-1b-replacements.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2879083/it-outsourcing... It's this type of abuse where US companies are simply looking to fire US citizens so they can pay slave wages to foreign contractors for the same work that people are up in arms about.

majormajor 9y ago
Even established companies not in the obviously-sleazy Tata/Infosys abuse buckets play games here. "Write up job description consisting of specialty skills your H1B candidate already has, but that you don't need in your company in that role, then use them as a generic webdev" type stuff.
- vostok 9y ago
  I recently saw a job advertisement for a front office role at a major bank that literally included the person's name.
  - bsimpson 9y ago
    They'd already printed up name placards for Sam Fakename, so it was really important that they could reuse those for the next candidate.
    - vostok 9y ago
      They didn't list the name as a requirement, but they said Firstname will be working on X, Y, and Z. I assume the person writing the advertisement just forgot that they're technically looking for a local candidate.
  - thr0w__4w4y 9y ago
    I 100% believe you, but just for entertainment value, assuming the posting was public and recent -- any chance you have a link to the posting that you can share with us? I need a good laugh today.
- addicted 9y ago
  Yeah because wanting someone who has worked in your company for 3-5 years and has an in depth knowledge of the job and the internal Dynamics of the company is obviously the exact equivalent of someone who has experience in the 3-4 specific headline technologies whether they are good or not at that is a terrible idea. The alternative of an H1B is not an American. It's off shoring the entire project to a team that doesn't live in the US in the first place.
  - mobilefriendly 9y ago
    >The alternative of an H1B is not an American. It's off shoring the entire project to a team that doesn't live in the US in the first place. Nope, the alternative is off shoring the project to places like Ohio and Montana.
    - urazen 9y ago
      Nope, offshorinng to non-US companies is the most preferred alternative in the real world. Just look at the fact. Offshorinng has been existing for a long time. Building dev center in Ohio and Montana is much more difficult and costly.
      - sheepmullet 9y ago
        No. They already offshore as much as they can get away with. Being unable to import cheap labor from overseas would be a huge loss to these chop shops and allow other local companies to compete with local staff.
  - mywittyname 9y ago
    This is correct. I've been involved in these sorts of postings, and it was absolutely gamed. But for good reason: we already had the perfect person in the role and wanted to keep him. Imagine if there was a law that required companies to post job openings for every position in the company, regardless of whether or not that position was already filled. As you can imagine, they would likely make the job requirements exceedingly specific for the roles filled by people they really like. You don't even need to imagine, just go look at government or non-profit job postings. It's often the case that they similar ridiculous policies for promotions, where they already have a person they want to promote, but they need to open it up to public applicants first.
damnyou 9y ago
> The stated purpose of the H1-B program is to allow companies to fill vacancies with international applicants if they are unable to find US employees qualified for the roles. This canard keeps getting repeated in HN threads. This is WRONG. 100% absolutely completely WRONG. The only stated purpose of the H-1B program is to allow foreigners with degrees (or equivalent experience) to perform skilled work in the US. Here are the DOL requirements: https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/elg/h1b.htm https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/elg/h1b.htm The only one that affects US workers is to "[p]rovide working conditions for H-1B, H-1B1, or E-3 workers that will not adversely affect the working conditions of workers similarly employed." (There are additional requirements on H-1B dependent companies, but those don't apply to most companies.) Here's a fact sheet from the DOL specifically about this matter: https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/FactSheet62/whdfs62O.pdf https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/FactSheet62/whdfs62O... What you're talking about is requirements for an EB-2 or EB-3 green card.
- chefandy 9y ago
  "will not adversely affect the working conditions of workers similarly employed" Seriously. Who in the world would consider being fired and replaced with cheap labor an adverse effect?
  - rrhd 9y ago
    Yeah, but I don't think anyone argues that type of behavior isn't blatant abuse of the program. It's frustrating when people complain about H-1Bs at big companies like Google/MS/Amazon. Apparently we're underpaid, overworked, and stealing a job from an american. Despite the fact that these companies are almost constantly hiring and if the american wants to go try, they could.
    - fggdsgsg 9y ago
      If we weren't around, an American could demand a (significantly) higher wage. If the developer wages were higher an American programer would consider not becoming a manager (why code away for peanuts when you can boss others for much more?). That's in the short term. In the long term more Americans would do CS, and if the supply is tight enough, Apple and the others would open schools to train teenagers to code. Not saying that the current system isn't better. But the basic forces are what they are. Btw, you are underpaid and overworked. The game-room is gaming you to stay at work longer hours.
davidw 9y ago
The logical remedy would be to eliminate the lock the employer has on these people so that they can get competitive offers and see their salaries bid up to something better.
- aorloff 9y ago
  Bingo !
- KKKKkkkk1 9y ago
  There is no lock. Once you have an H-1B, you can transfer as soon as you get another offer. The lock is on the J-1 and O-1 visas very popular at research orgs. That's where the true indentured servitude happens.
  - calvinbhai 9y ago
    J-1 and O-1 have more shackles. H1b indeed restricts mobility. IMO, a better law would be to give a green card with 3 yr validity to those on H1b. Then you'll see how the equation changes. Employees on H1b have very few choices due to these locks.
- abandonliberty 9y ago
  Compensation for H1Bs includes potential American citizenship. Depending where you're from, this can be worth a lot. Therefore these employees will still accept much lower pay from the employer for similar work
  - calvinbhai 9y ago
    Since the big chunk of H1Bs are for people from India and China, Citizenship through employment is almost impossible for most of them, especially those born in India. This link explains the why and how very well http://7monthsvs70years.siia.us http://7monthsvs70years.siia.us People born elsewhere (other than China, India, Philippines) and are here on an H1b, are better off in terms of chances of getting a Green Card and a citizenship in a decent amount of time.
Mikeb85 9y ago
That's the ideal use case. The real use case is to get foreign workers to do jobs for a lower wage than Americans are being paid.
CydeWeys 9y ago
So why not simply stop granting any H-1Bs to rampant abusers like Tata and Infosys, while leaving more H-1Bs to go around for the non-abusers? What they're up to is very widely known.
- davidw 9y ago
  Why bother with a fixed number at all? http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-optimal-number-of-immigrants.html http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-optimal-number...
  - damnyou 9y ago
    > Why bother with a fixed number at all? This is obviously the sensible approach, but most people who comment on Hacker News immigration threads are nativist. They might pretend to be liberal or progressive [1], but at their core they're no different from the Jim Crow segregationists of the '50s. Changing your in-group from being based on the color of your skin to the patch of dirt you were born on doesn't change the basic immorality of your position. [1] Though it must be said that progressivism and nativism have been very close friends historically, and continue to be so in the form of NIMBYs.
  - jimbokun 9y ago
    That's an interesting article, but if the proposals for limiting the number of immigrants in that article, like speaking English. paying a bond, asset and income tests, would probably drive progressives apoplectic if proposed as actual legislation. Although, would be super interesting to see this as a proposal from a "moderate" Democrat. Also completely ignores traditional criteria for immigration, like oppressed people, security concerns, spouses and family members, and health status. Also, author jokes about population density of places like the UK, but how long would it take to actually build the infrastructure to accommodate a mass influx of new residents, especially if they tended to congregate in a small number of areas with good jobs or other people of their ethnic or linguistic groups?
    - davidw 9y ago
nonamechicken 9y ago
Infosys and TCS together received 7,504 approved H1B visas in 2014-15, which is only 8.8% of the total approved H1B visas, says Nasscom http://www.livemint.com/Industry/pHkRcTtIoKd8MkTkBNdtSN/Infosys-TCS-accounted-for-only-88-of-total-H1B-visasNass.html http://www.livemint.com/Industry/pHkRcTtIoKd8MkTkBNdtSN/Info...
- FireBeyond 9y ago
  I think "only" is an odd choice of words. In a country as large as the US, that two consulting companies picked up nearly 10% of the country's visa allotment for a certain category of worker is part of the problem in itself.
pfarnsworth 9y ago
Training your replacements has happened since the dotcom bust. My friend was forced to train his Indian replacements when he worked at Nortel.

majormajor 9y ago

Even established companies not in the obviously-sleazy Tata/Infosys abuse buckets play games here. "Write up job description consisting of specialty skills your H1B candidate already has, but that you don't need in your company in that role, then use them as a generic webdev" type stuff.

vostok 9y ago
I recently saw a job advertisement for a front office role at a major bank that literally included the person's name.
- bsimpson 9y ago
  They'd already printed up name placards for Sam Fakename, so it was really important that they could reuse those for the next candidate.
  - vostok 9y ago
    They didn't list the name as a requirement, but they said Firstname will be working on X, Y, and Z. I assume the person writing the advertisement just forgot that they're technically looking for a local candidate.
- thr0w__4w4y 9y ago
  I 100% believe you, but just for entertainment value, assuming the posting was public and recent -- any chance you have a link to the posting that you can share with us? I need a good laugh today.
addicted 9y ago
Yeah because wanting someone who has worked in your company for 3-5 years and has an in depth knowledge of the job and the internal Dynamics of the company is obviously the exact equivalent of someone who has experience in the 3-4 specific headline technologies whether they are good or not at that is a terrible idea. The alternative of an H1B is not an American. It's off shoring the entire project to a team that doesn't live in the US in the first place.
- mobilefriendly 9y ago
  >The alternative of an H1B is not an American. It's off shoring the entire project to a team that doesn't live in the US in the first place. Nope, the alternative is off shoring the project to places like Ohio and Montana.
  - urazen 9y ago
    Nope, offshorinng to non-US companies is the most preferred alternative in the real world. Just look at the fact. Offshorinng has been existing for a long time. Building dev center in Ohio and Montana is much more difficult and costly.
    - sheepmullet 9y ago
      No. They already offshore as much as they can get away with. Being unable to import cheap labor from overseas would be a huge loss to these chop shops and allow other local companies to compete with local staff.
- mywittyname 9y ago
  This is correct. I've been involved in these sorts of postings, and it was absolutely gamed. But for good reason: we already had the perfect person in the role and wanted to keep him. Imagine if there was a law that required companies to post job openings for every position in the company, regardless of whether or not that position was already filled. As you can imagine, they would likely make the job requirements exceedingly specific for the roles filled by people they really like. You don't even need to imagine, just go look at government or non-profit job postings. It's often the case that they similar ridiculous policies for promotions, where they already have a person they want to promote, but they need to open it up to public applicants first.

damnyou 9y ago

> The stated purpose of the H1-B program is to allow companies to fill vacancies with international applicants if they are unable to find US employees qualified for the roles. This canard keeps getting repeated in HN threads. This is WRONG. 100% absolutely completely WRONG. The only stated purpose of the H-1B program is to allow foreigners with degrees (or equivalent experience) to perform skilled work in the US. Here are the DOL requirements: https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/elg/h1b.htm https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/elg/h1b.htm The only one that affects US workers is to "[p]rovide working conditions for H-1B, H-1B1, or E-3 workers that will not adversely affect the working conditions of workers similarly employed." (There are additional requirements on H-1B dependent companies, but those don't apply to most companies.) Here's a fact sheet from the DOL specifically about this matter: https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/FactSheet62/whdfs62O.pdf https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/FactSheet62/whdfs62O... What you're talking about is requirements for an EB-2 or EB-3 green card.

chefandy 9y ago
"will not adversely affect the working conditions of workers similarly employed" Seriously. Who in the world would consider being fired and replaced with cheap labor an adverse effect?
- rrhd 9y ago
  Yeah, but I don't think anyone argues that type of behavior isn't blatant abuse of the program. It's frustrating when people complain about H-1Bs at big companies like Google/MS/Amazon. Apparently we're underpaid, overworked, and stealing a job from an american. Despite the fact that these companies are almost constantly hiring and if the american wants to go try, they could.
  - fggdsgsg 9y ago
    If we weren't around, an American could demand a (significantly) higher wage. If the developer wages were higher an American programer would consider not becoming a manager (why code away for peanuts when you can boss others for much more?). That's in the short term. In the long term more Americans would do CS, and if the supply is tight enough, Apple and the others would open schools to train teenagers to code. Not saying that the current system isn't better. But the basic forces are what they are. Btw, you are underpaid and overworked. The game-room is gaming you to stay at work longer hours.

davidw 9y ago

The logical remedy would be to eliminate the lock the employer has on these people so that they can get competitive offers and see their salaries bid up to something better.

aorloff 9y ago
Bingo !
KKKKkkkk1 9y ago
There is no lock. Once you have an H-1B, you can transfer as soon as you get another offer. The lock is on the J-1 and O-1 visas very popular at research orgs. That's where the true indentured servitude happens.
- calvinbhai 9y ago
  J-1 and O-1 have more shackles. H1b indeed restricts mobility. IMO, a better law would be to give a green card with 3 yr validity to those on H1b. Then you'll see how the equation changes. Employees on H1b have very few choices due to these locks.
abandonliberty 9y ago
Compensation for H1Bs includes potential American citizenship. Depending where you're from, this can be worth a lot. Therefore these employees will still accept much lower pay from the employer for similar work
- calvinbhai 9y ago
  Since the big chunk of H1Bs are for people from India and China, Citizenship through employment is almost impossible for most of them, especially those born in India. This link explains the why and how very well http://7monthsvs70years.siia.us http://7monthsvs70years.siia.us People born elsewhere (other than China, India, Philippines) and are here on an H1b, are better off in terms of chances of getting a Green Card and a citizenship in a decent amount of time.

Mikeb85 9y ago

That's the ideal use case. The real use case is to get foreign workers to do jobs for a lower wage than Americans are being paid.

CydeWeys 9y ago

So why not simply stop granting any H-1Bs to rampant abusers like Tata and Infosys, while leaving more H-1Bs to go around for the non-abusers? What they're up to is very widely known.

davidw 9y ago
Why bother with a fixed number at all? http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-optimal-number-of-immigrants.html http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-optimal-number...
- damnyou 9y ago
  > Why bother with a fixed number at all? This is obviously the sensible approach, but most people who comment on Hacker News immigration threads are nativist. They might pretend to be liberal or progressive [1], but at their core they're no different from the Jim Crow segregationists of the '50s. Changing your in-group from being based on the color of your skin to the patch of dirt you were born on doesn't change the basic immorality of your position. [1] Though it must be said that progressivism and nativism have been very close friends historically, and continue to be so in the form of NIMBYs.
- jimbokun 9y ago
  That's an interesting article, but if the proposals for limiting the number of immigrants in that article, like speaking English. paying a bond, asset and income tests, would probably drive progressives apoplectic if proposed as actual legislation. Although, would be super interesting to see this as a proposal from a "moderate" Democrat. Also completely ignores traditional criteria for immigration, like oppressed people, security concerns, spouses and family members, and health status. Also, author jokes about population density of places like the UK, but how long would it take to actually build the infrastructure to accommodate a mass influx of new residents, especially if they tended to congregate in a small number of areas with good jobs or other people of their ethnic or linguistic groups?
  - davidw 9y ago

nonamechicken 9y ago

Infosys and TCS together received 7,504 approved H1B visas in 2014-15, which is only 8.8% of the total approved H1B visas, says Nasscom http://www.livemint.com/Industry/pHkRcTtIoKd8MkTkBNdtSN/Infosys-TCS-accounted-for-only-88-of-total-H1B-visasNass.html http://www.livemint.com/Industry/pHkRcTtIoKd8MkTkBNdtSN/Info...

FireBeyond 9y ago
I think "only" is an odd choice of words. In a country as large as the US, that two consulting companies picked up nearly 10% of the country's visa allotment for a certain category of worker is part of the problem in itself.

pfarnsworth 9y ago

Training your replacements has happened since the dotcom bust. My friend was forced to train his Indian replacements when he worked at Nortel.