22 ms·

Airline revenue from extra fees increases

65 points by petethomas 9y ago

kwoff 9y ago
Are airlines or landlords worse nowadays...?
njarboe 9y ago
Southwest Airlines does not play these games (the first 2 checked bags are free and canceling your ticket before the flight gives you a voucher for the full fare you paid to use in the future). It also does not have fares listed with the airline ticket search sites. They usually have good fares, decent service, and on time flights. I try and fly them when ever I can get a direct flight with them. I understand why they keep growing and wish other airlines would try their style. I try to choose companies with friendly business practices, even if it costs a bit more sometimes.
- waqf 9y ago
  Isn't Southwest the one that just launched obligatory in-air concerts? https://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2017/11/hitting-wrong-note https://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2017/11/hitting-wro... I think I'll give that a miss.
  - njarboe 9y ago
    I imagine Southwest will give this a miss also. Seems like a Nashville one-off. Never seen it myself.
    - tallanvor 9y ago
      Unfortunately not just a one-off: http://www.npr.org/2017/10/30/560767453/southwest-airlines-to-offer-inflict-live-music-on-select-flights http://www.npr.org/2017/10/30/560767453/southwest-airlines-t...
  - whamlastxmas 9y ago
    If they want to make flying more fun, they should start by not treating everyone like a piece of meat during security screening beforehand.
    - andrewjw 9y ago
      Unfortunately, they don't really have control over that. I'm sure every airline would love to decrease the hassle of flying - it would be great for business.
- ransom1538 9y ago
  Southwest Airlines is also fatality free (on their planes).
- tyingq 9y ago
  No fees for changes either, other than the fare difference.
  - andrewjw 9y ago
    It's worth noting that in my observation their fares jump in price as the flight approaches to a higher degree than some other airlines, though not too much higher, and I still prefer this to change fees.
dawhizkid 9y ago
Who checks bags anymore?
- watty 9y ago
  Travelers do for a variety of reasons.
- untog 9y ago
  Fewer and fewer people, but that's not actually a good thing. Boarding the plane takes longer, as people walk up and down aisles trying to find an overhead bin that still has space. Then, when the plane has run out of space, passenger suitcases have to be carried back off the plane and stowed underneath, where they belong anyway. Everyone gets stressed out and annoyed by the whole experience. The airline fee structure is directly responsible for this. Spirit, for its many sins, charges less to check a bag than carry one on. As a result, there's almost always overhead bin space and boarding goes a lot quicker. The downside is that you're then dependent on airport staff to quickly unload your bags and put them on the carousel - they used to be very good at doing that quickly, but not any more.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    Then, when the plane has run out of space, passenger suitcases have to be carried back off the plane and stowed underneath Weird. I fly mostly with Ryanair and they count the bags before people enter the plane and stow away all the extras. I've never seen completely full overhead bins or bags carried off the plane to stow away.
    - untog 9y ago
      That's not too surprising - Ryanair seems to have been created with all these ideas factored into their whole operation. US airlines have sort of grafted them on top after discovering how lucrative they can be.
  - lokedhs 9y ago
    Why do the airlines allow people to bring large bags into the cabin? On all airlines I travel on (mostly in Asia and Europe) the bags have to comply with a maximum size.
bickfordb 9y ago
The economy (or even "premium") customer service on most of my recent flights has been awful. In most other U.S. service industries (restaurants, bars, etc), the staff is incentivized to serve you and increase sales and get tips. I've been on many 3-5HR flights where you see a flight attendant at most twice, and the attendants seem almost required to do the least. It comes across as if the airline firms are trying to make things as uncomfortable as possible to upsell to first/business.
- nradov 9y ago
  Flight attendants aren't really there for service. Their primarily responsibility is supposed to be safety. Serving snacks is just a courtesy. You can always bring your own, or walk to the galley and ask for something.
  - tyingq 9y ago
    They are paid to do both. The customer service side isn't optional. https://jobs.aa.com/job/Dallas-Trainee-Flight-Attendant-TX-75201/439653000/ https://jobs.aa.com/job/Dallas-Trainee-Flight-Attendant-TX-7...
  - mseebach 9y ago
    They are primarily there for safety, and had they not historically been required for safety (early cabin crew members were nurses), but they absolutely have service duties.
- chrisseaton 9y ago
  How many times do you need to see a stewardess on a 3 to 5 hour flight though? What do you need from them during that time? I'm not sure what you're expecting from them.
  - mseebach 9y ago
    Need? I don't need to see them at all. But business/first class products are sold as luxury, and have more staff per passenger than non-premium cabins -- it's not entirely unreasonable to expect them to pass through on a regular basis and offer to have your drink or coffee refreshed. Generally this has absolutely been the case when I've flown in premium cabins.
rchowe 9y ago
Airlines (in the US, mostly) are incentivized to add these fees for two major reasons: 1. Fees are exempt from the 7.5% federal excise tax on airfare. 2. It makes the initial fare lower on airfare sites like Kayak, for people who choose the cheapest route, then they up-sell customers once they've decided.
- dheera 9y ago
  Every so often a flight aggregator (Kayak, Expedia, etc.) shows up. To date precisely none of them have solved the REAL customer pain point: show the actual price I will pay. I really wish restaurants and everywhere else would include taxes in their prices too. I frankly don't care what fraction of my money is going to the government, all I care is (a) what I pay in total and (b) what I'm getting.
  - rchowe 9y ago
    The real trick with an aggregator would be to say what you want (e.g. I want a carry-on bag, but I don't care where I sit or about in-flight food) and it spits out a list of total-cost airfares with those features. It would probably still skew towards the low-cost carriers where everything is a la carte, but at least people wouldn't be surprised by the total cost.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - hkjayakumar 9y ago
    ITA's Matrix[1] shows the actual price, but rumours are that Google will shut them down in the near future in favour of Google Flights following their shutdown of the QPX Express API[2] [1] http://matrix.itasoftware.com/ http://matrix.itasoftware.com/ [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15594975 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15594975
    - jptman 9y ago
      Those two have nothing to do with each other. Someone in that thread purely speculated and now there are 'rumors'.
alsetmusic 9y ago
The nickel-and-diming of airlines has been clear to me for ages, but I found what I considered a surprising new low last year. I bought round-trip tickets but missed my outgoing flight. I booked a one-way trip for later the same day, reasoning that I would use my original return flight to come home. Surprise! I found out (at the airport, trying to fly home a few days later) that because I hadn’t boarded the first flight, the airline had resold my seat on the return flight. I was not credited for the seat on the return flight (which was now unavailable to me). I wasn’t even notified that it was forfeited when my trip was cancelled. Pressed for time, I had to purchase an additional one-way ticket home. I understand the motivation to resell an unused seat at flight time in the event of a no-show. This, however, struck me as a deliberate predatory theft of my reservation, a sort of loophole to deprive me of my reservation without recompense. I don’t think a scenario such as this is unforeseen by the airline (an honest misunderstanding); rather, I think it is exploited. The airline may have a clause somewhere on their website explaining that the above is to be expected. That doesn’t make it square for me. The behavior of the airline was, IMO, unethical. If I ever face a similar scenario in the future, I will know to communicate explicitly with the airline about my intention to use my return ticket. However, I shouldn’t have to do so or risk finding myself stranded away from home.
- pxeboot 9y ago
  Unfortunately that has been happening for years, long before checked bag fees were a thing. It is likely a way to make hidden city ticketing harder.
  - dzhiurgis 9y ago
    But how is that making them any money? Wouldn't it make more sense to sell something and not do the service? Or the actual service cost is so little that it makes 0 difference? Does airline get to keep airport tax? Fuel savings are negligible compared with all the taxes.
    - greenleafjacob 9y ago
      Because they can sell the same seat twice.
pxeboot 9y ago
I find high undisclosed taxes on rental cars and hidden resort fees at hotels much more unfriendly to consumers than airline fees.
- arnvald 9y ago
  Absolutely! When buying an air ticket, at least on the checkout page I see the final price I'm paying. On the contrary, when renting a car a couple of years ago I had following situation - I booked a car and paid, then I arrived at the airport, and at the counter I was told: * 5EUR/day more because I'm below 25yo * 5EUR/day more because it's a diesel car ("so I don't want diesel" - "but we have only diesel") * gas policy is full/empty, so I have to pay for gas in advance; I check the contract and it says I have to pay "market rate", I check online and market rate is 20% less than what they want me to pay, I say this is not market rate, they say it includes surcharge for fueling the car. In the end I didn't have much choice and rented the car, but the experience was much worse than buying air tickets.
  - ghaff 9y ago
    Fees in general for rental cars are awful. In the US at least there are also all sorts of taxes, concession fees, high hourly fees if you return at a bit later time than you picked up, etc. It can all add up to 30% or more of the total price so you need to make sure you're comparing apples-to-apples when you make a reservation. On the plus side, most rental cars don't charge for canceling or missing a reservation, returning early, or just not showing up--so there's that.
    - tombrossman 9y ago
      If you reserve (just book, no need to pay in advance) a popular class of vehicle in advance the pick-up location will often not have one available so you get a free upgrade to whichever superior class they do have ready. Also, look for 'off-airport' locations because these do not assess an airport surcharge fee. Off-airport locations are even less likely to have popular classes in stock. Doesn't matter if you just flew in, (remove your airline luggage tags, try not to be obvious) take a taxi to the location. It will frequently be cheaper this way. Off-airport locations are often near airports. As an American living in Europe, I found that some US insurers will issue a 'driver only' policy that covers you while driving rentals in the USA on your European license. I'm paying $24/year for mine which has generous limits and is much cheaper than the coverage rental agencies offer. Also slightly unrelated but don't dare call British Airways to enquire about changing your flight or you will not be able to check in online and you will get the worst seats when you show up for your flight. This is true even if you make no changes, your booking is put in to some kind of frozen state and the phone agents are unable to reverse this. You must visit the BA desk at an airport in person to have this corrected. Bizarre, but this was confirmed by multiple people at BA who I spoke to after having it happen to me.
Scoundreller 9y ago
So, what does a carry-on bag really cost an airline anyway? Is it reasonable to discourage it because the airline needs to pay the airports for each bag and the ability to carry non-passenger cargo is reduced that much?
- tradersam 9y ago
  The airlines cost are based on weight, as that determines the fuel use for the flight (not including in-flight variances that would also contribute to fuel costs).
  - Scoundreller 9y ago
    Not sure why I my question was just about carry-ons... For checked bags, what do the departing and arriving airports charge the airline per-bag for handling?
- pxeboot 9y ago
  If allowing carry-ons delays boarding by just 5 minutes on average, I imagine the cost to airlines is fairly high.
Scoundreller 9y ago
I guess this is also a way for airlines to devalue their frequent-flyer points programs: the bag is no longer included. Or, in the case of a Canadian airline, Westjet, you get a free checked bag when you have their premium credit card.
- monksy 9y ago
  That's the same with the United and Chase Milage cards (club and explorer)
- saryant 9y ago
  Frequent flyers don’t pay bag fees. Airline status comps those fees.
  - mseebach 9y ago
    "Airlines" don't collectively do anything. Most airlines' medium tier status and up generally entitles members to some extra baggage allowance, but eg. British Airways basic economy has no baggage allowance, including for status holders.
caseysoftware 9y ago
The new "basic economy" fares are the ones that piss me off. For ~16 months, I've been taking the same handful of United flights between the same locations every few weeks. When they launched "basic economy" they insisted that they would just lower the price for people who didn't care about having a carry on, assigned seats, etc. Not surprisingly, the basic economy fare is what I was paying before and to get all the "perks" like having a carry on, assigned seating or even having the miles count towards status, it's an extra $20-30 each way. They f*d us nicely there.
- BostonEnginerd 9y ago
  This drives me nuts - not only is it more money, but it seems that most of the people with Economy-- tickets don't realize it and get into fights with the gate agents. It's amazing how effective it is for turning all of the people in the airport against each other.
- KozmoNau7 9y ago
  We hit a nice little trap while booking our tickets for Christmas (Copenhagen to Stuttgart). The outgoing flight was Lufthansa "Economy Basic", which includes checked luggage. But the return flight was "Economy Light", which doesn't include checked luggage. Since we would actually like to take our bags home with us, it effectively added a hidden fee on top of the original price, just so it would show as "luggage included" in the aggregator.
  - dx034 9y ago
    But you surely saw that when you booked? Did you book over some shady website? Lufthansa.com would've definitely warned you before you booked.
    - KozmoNau7 9y ago
      We booked through Google Flights, which only pointed out that checked luggage may incur extra fees. We only spotted the difference on the return flight when we actually went to Lufthansa's site to check that everything was in order. Both flights were shown as "economy" on Google Flights.
chrisbennet 9y ago
I sometimes fantasize about having one of these companies as a client and billing them with fees mirroring the ones they charge i.e. add a fee for “mandated federal and state taxes” (my income taxes), maybe an “internet surcharge” and of course a “fuel surcharge”. My biggest expense next year will be insurance so I’ll definately add an “insurance fee” that in there as well. I’m getting giddy just thinking about it...
megaman22 9y ago
In recent years, the only decent experiences I've had flying have been with JetBlue, European national carriers, and WOW. JetBlue and the European carriers still offer decent service and don't nickel and dime everything. They let you check a bag or two. The gate and flight staff are competent and relatively efficient. The aircraft are clean, well-maintained, and modern. The European carriers even feed you. It's almost as good as flying was before 2000. WOW is a cut-rate airline, and they're upfront about it. The other major carriers are a dumpster fire. I won't even try to fly United or American or Delta anymore.
- ghaff 9y ago
  JetBlue is definitely one of the better US carriers for those who don't have status. (I typically fly United but I have relatively high status on them.) But JetBlue has adopted a lot of the fee structures of the legacy carriers. They do charge extra for checked luggage now. They have pay for more legroom seats (although their regular seat pitch isn't bad by economy standards). They have pay for early boarding. Their change fees have gone up.
chrismcb 9y ago
I was once charged a ticket purchasing fee! This was not an online free, it would have been charged no matter how I purchased the ticket
- dingaling 9y ago
  Easyjet in the UK now have a mandatory £15 'administration fee' for each booking. There's no way around it. It would be less galling if they just called it 'Minimum Fare'. Plus they add a 1% credit card charge!
  - zinckiwi 9y ago
    The credit card charge I don't mind so much. Budget airlines are understandably concerned about margins, and the 1% they charge is lower than what I understand prevailing credit card handling commissions to be. (Assuming that there is a 1%-free debit card option, of course. If not, then that's just a 1% margin booster in the guise of something else.)
  - koyote 9y ago
    The credit card charge should disappear in January once the new law on banning credit card charges is in place :)
    - whamlastxmas 9y ago
      It's already against their merchant agreements, I have doubts the ban will do anything.
      - sokoloff 9y ago
        Effective Jan 27, 2013, surcharges for credit card transactions became permitted by the Visa and Mastercard merchant agreements.
darklajid 9y ago
As someone who literally _just_ ranted on Twitter (and on their 1990s style, "/start.tk" issue website) that Turkish Airlines has never once replied to my messages after losing my bag on the 26th of October: I wish there were a central, democratic review system for airlines, outing them for all their faults. Paying for checked in bags is not fun if the bag doesn't arrive. Fighting for (soon) two weeks to get back what is yours is no fun either. Any public outrage about airline practices gets my upvote.. (I understand that for certain routes you cannot really choose someone else..)
- selimthegrim 9y ago
  http://www.airlinequality.com/ http://www.airlinequality.com/
JumpCrisscross 9y ago
We’re in a golden age of flying for both airlines and passengers. If you want 1960s style service, first class tickets are cheaper today than the cheapest tickets were back then. The reason airlines nickel and dime is Americans’ preference for cheaper tickets over almost anything else. The bulk of the remaining demand comes from frequent fliers, who are exempted from most fees, or business travellers, who are too profitable to risk pissing off.
- TheCoelacanth 9y ago
  The itemization of services isn't the problem. It is the hiding of the fees that is the problem. What they are doing now is essentially a bait-and-switch. They should (and should be legally mandated to) be upfront about what they are going to charge you for, include that information prominently when advertising tickets and make the fee information available to third-parties so that ticket shopping sites can offer an accurate comparison of what your total cost will be.
KozmoNau7 9y ago
Unless you're going away for two weeks or more, cabin luggage really should be all you need. Pack smart and pack light, think long and hard about which clothes you're actually going to need. If you're bringing bulky items of clothing (such as hiking boots), wear them on the plane. Don't bring a bunch of extra stuff "just in case", odds are you'll be able to buy whatever it is at your destination. Most airlines allow 55x40x20cm(-ish) size cabin luggage, plus a so-called personal item, which can be as big as 40x30x15cm on some airlines, or described as a purse, a handbag or a slim laptop bag. Sometimes the weight is included in the cabin luggage allowance, sometimes it's not, so you have to check the terms for each airline. This will let you bring a bit of extra luggage, or at least make sure your laptop isn't taking up a bunch of space in your cabin luggage. This may seem like a bunch of needless extra work when packing, for saving a small fee, but it also means you won't have to waste time at the luggage carousel, and it will be much less hassle if you have to go by taxi or public transport. And of course your luggage won't be at the mercy of underpaid and possibly careless luggage workers. Pack smart, avoid fees and hassle.
- deepGem 9y ago
  When weight is a concern, try not using the carry on bags with wheels. Those bags themselves weigh about 6-7 lbs and the telescopic handle takes up space inside the bag. I use the Amazon basics carryon or the more expensive Patagonia MLC 45L both of which which weigh less than 2.2 lbs and are a breeze to carry on. It's amazing how much space and time (it's much faster to walk with these carry on's) you save when you use these. Oh and these provide O(1) access as they fold like a suitcase and not like a hiking bag which in my view has a best case o(n) access and worst case o(n^n) access.
  - JadeNB 9y ago
    > I use the Amazon basics carryon Which one? This sounds like good advice, but I just did a quick search [0], and in the first several results saw only hard-sided spinners and a backpack. [0] https://www.amazon.com/s?field-keywords=Amazon+Basics+carry+on https://www.amazon.com/s?field-keywords=Amazon+Basics+carry+...
  - 9y ago
msheif 9y ago
Even though they have clauses on their website explaining that your ticket may be resold, it is still not fair.
chesimov 9y ago
Travelled in the US earlier this year on 3 regional carriers. I realise this is only an anecdote, but I was surprised by a number of things: - tickets stated as direct included a hidden stop and change of plane. - there was an extra charge for a checked bag. - the checked bag was promptly lost on my first flight and returned to me after 5 days. - on one united flight, we had to wait on the tarmac for 1hr45 min while a guy sat each wing of the plane in turn refuelling it with a gas-pump style hose through a port on the wing. This was because the central rapid-fuelling system on the plane was broken. - interior of aircraft was shabby. In one plane they had retrofitted LED lighting in the cabin, but it was too narrow and so exposed hull insulation and other structures in the gap. - seats felt much closer together than usual. What on earth do you do if you're above average height in the US? - price! Unbelievably expensive to fly between cities in the US. In SE Asia or Europe I have travelled between similar sized cities and similar distances for well under half the price in the US and at shorter notice. What ever the airlines may tell you in the US, from the perspective of an outsider, I'm pretty sure they're ripping you off! Edit: formatting
- dx034 9y ago
  Flying in the US usually has less service and higher prices than Europe. It's often cheaper to fly from Europe to the US than within the US. European airlines also started charging for some extras but it's nowhere near the level of the US. Population density is likely the explanation. In Europe most people fly between major city, small cities are often connected by rail to the next airport. That keeps costs low and makes competition easier. In the US there are few direct connections with a lot of demand so that you need to provide a network, increasing barriers of entrance.
- jowiar 9y ago
  Regional domestic travel in the US is shit — it’s not particularly profitable, and ends up with many monopolies. Flying between major cities/hubs is generally comfortable and efficient, albeit a hair expensive, but trying to go anywhere small is problematic. What makes the PR situation around this worse is a lot of once-a-year flyers traveling to see family for Christmas (or weddings or funerals) have this as their flying experience. This is both subject to delays (because winter, and specific circled dates on a calendar) and often is when the system is running near full capacity. Thus, air travel as most people experience it is very different from air travel as experienced on most trips — the denominator matters, but it is hard to solve.

65 points by petethomas 9y ago

Are airlines or landlords worse nowadays...?

Southwest Airlines does not play these games (the first 2 checked bags are free and canceling your ticket before the flight gives you a voucher for the full fare you paid to use in the future). It also does not have fares listed with the airline ticket search sites. They usually have good fares, decent service, and on time flights. I try and fly them when ever I can get a direct flight with them. I understand why they keep growing and wish other airlines would try their style. I try to choose companies with friendly business practices, even if it costs a bit more sometimes.

waqf 9y ago
Isn't Southwest the one that just launched obligatory in-air concerts? https://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2017/11/hitting-wrong-note https://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2017/11/hitting-wro... I think I'll give that a miss.
- njarboe 9y ago
  I imagine Southwest will give this a miss also. Seems like a Nashville one-off. Never seen it myself.
  - tallanvor 9y ago
    Unfortunately not just a one-off: http://www.npr.org/2017/10/30/560767453/southwest-airlines-to-offer-inflict-live-music-on-select-flights http://www.npr.org/2017/10/30/560767453/southwest-airlines-t...
- whamlastxmas 9y ago
  If they want to make flying more fun, they should start by not treating everyone like a piece of meat during security screening beforehand.
  - andrewjw 9y ago
    Unfortunately, they don't really have control over that. I'm sure every airline would love to decrease the hassle of flying - it would be great for business.
ransom1538 9y ago
Southwest Airlines is also fatality free (on their planes).
tyingq 9y ago
No fees for changes either, other than the fare difference.
- andrewjw 9y ago
  It's worth noting that in my observation their fares jump in price as the flight approaches to a higher degree than some other airlines, though not too much higher, and I still prefer this to change fees.

dawhizkid 9y ago

Who checks bags anymore?

watty 9y ago
Travelers do for a variety of reasons.
untog 9y ago
Fewer and fewer people, but that's not actually a good thing. Boarding the plane takes longer, as people walk up and down aisles trying to find an overhead bin that still has space. Then, when the plane has run out of space, passenger suitcases have to be carried back off the plane and stowed underneath, where they belong anyway. Everyone gets stressed out and annoyed by the whole experience. The airline fee structure is directly responsible for this. Spirit, for its many sins, charges less to check a bag than carry one on. As a result, there's almost always overhead bin space and boarding goes a lot quicker. The downside is that you're then dependent on airport staff to quickly unload your bags and put them on the carousel - they used to be very good at doing that quickly, but not any more.
- icebraining 9y ago
  Then, when the plane has run out of space, passenger suitcases have to be carried back off the plane and stowed underneath Weird. I fly mostly with Ryanair and they count the bags before people enter the plane and stow away all the extras. I've never seen completely full overhead bins or bags carried off the plane to stow away.
  - untog 9y ago
    That's not too surprising - Ryanair seems to have been created with all these ideas factored into their whole operation. US airlines have sort of grafted them on top after discovering how lucrative they can be.
- lokedhs 9y ago
  Why do the airlines allow people to bring large bags into the cabin? On all airlines I travel on (mostly in Asia and Europe) the bags have to comply with a maximum size.

bickfordb 9y ago

The economy (or even "premium") customer service on most of my recent flights has been awful. In most other U.S. service industries (restaurants, bars, etc), the staff is incentivized to serve you and increase sales and get tips. I've been on many 3-5HR flights where you see a flight attendant at most twice, and the attendants seem almost required to do the least. It comes across as if the airline firms are trying to make things as uncomfortable as possible to upsell to first/business.

nradov 9y ago
Flight attendants aren't really there for service. Their primarily responsibility is supposed to be safety. Serving snacks is just a courtesy. You can always bring your own, or walk to the galley and ask for something.
- tyingq 9y ago
  They are paid to do both. The customer service side isn't optional. https://jobs.aa.com/job/Dallas-Trainee-Flight-Attendant-TX-75201/439653000/ https://jobs.aa.com/job/Dallas-Trainee-Flight-Attendant-TX-7...
- mseebach 9y ago
  They are primarily there for safety, and had they not historically been required for safety (early cabin crew members were nurses), but they absolutely have service duties.
chrisseaton 9y ago
How many times do you need to see a stewardess on a 3 to 5 hour flight though? What do you need from them during that time? I'm not sure what you're expecting from them.
- mseebach 9y ago
  Need? I don't need to see them at all. But business/first class products are sold as luxury, and have more staff per passenger than non-premium cabins -- it's not entirely unreasonable to expect them to pass through on a regular basis and offer to have your drink or coffee refreshed. Generally this has absolutely been the case when I've flown in premium cabins.

rchowe 9y ago

Airlines (in the US, mostly) are incentivized to add these fees for two major reasons: 1. Fees are exempt from the 7.5% federal excise tax on airfare. 2. It makes the initial fare lower on airfare sites like Kayak, for people who choose the cheapest route, then they up-sell customers once they've decided.

dheera 9y ago
Every so often a flight aggregator (Kayak, Expedia, etc.) shows up. To date precisely none of them have solved the REAL customer pain point: show the actual price I will pay. I really wish restaurants and everywhere else would include taxes in their prices too. I frankly don't care what fraction of my money is going to the government, all I care is (a) what I pay in total and (b) what I'm getting.
- rchowe 9y ago
  The real trick with an aggregator would be to say what you want (e.g. I want a carry-on bag, but I don't care where I sit or about in-flight food) and it spits out a list of total-cost airfares with those features. It would probably still skew towards the low-cost carriers where everything is a la carte, but at least people wouldn't be surprised by the total cost.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- hkjayakumar 9y ago
  ITA's Matrix[1] shows the actual price, but rumours are that Google will shut them down in the near future in favour of Google Flights following their shutdown of the QPX Express API[2] [1] http://matrix.itasoftware.com/ http://matrix.itasoftware.com/ [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15594975 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15594975
  - jptman 9y ago
    Those two have nothing to do with each other. Someone in that thread purely speculated and now there are 'rumors'.

alsetmusic 9y ago

The nickel-and-diming of airlines has been clear to me for ages, but I found what I considered a surprising new low last year. I bought round-trip tickets but missed my outgoing flight. I booked a one-way trip for later the same day, reasoning that I would use my original return flight to come home. Surprise! I found out (at the airport, trying to fly home a few days later) that because I hadn’t boarded the first flight, the airline had resold my seat on the return flight. I was not credited for the seat on the return flight (which was now unavailable to me). I wasn’t even notified that it was forfeited when my trip was cancelled. Pressed for time, I had to purchase an additional one-way ticket home. I understand the motivation to resell an unused seat at flight time in the event of a no-show. This, however, struck me as a deliberate predatory theft of my reservation, a sort of loophole to deprive me of my reservation without recompense. I don’t think a scenario such as this is unforeseen by the airline (an honest misunderstanding); rather, I think it is exploited. The airline may have a clause somewhere on their website explaining that the above is to be expected. That doesn’t make it square for me. The behavior of the airline was, IMO, unethical. If I ever face a similar scenario in the future, I will know to communicate explicitly with the airline about my intention to use my return ticket. However, I shouldn’t have to do so or risk finding myself stranded away from home.

pxeboot 9y ago
Unfortunately that has been happening for years, long before checked bag fees were a thing. It is likely a way to make hidden city ticketing harder.
- dzhiurgis 9y ago
  But how is that making them any money? Wouldn't it make more sense to sell something and not do the service? Or the actual service cost is so little that it makes 0 difference? Does airline get to keep airport tax? Fuel savings are negligible compared with all the taxes.
  - greenleafjacob 9y ago
    Because they can sell the same seat twice.

pxeboot 9y ago

I find high undisclosed taxes on rental cars and hidden resort fees at hotels much more unfriendly to consumers than airline fees.

arnvald 9y ago
Absolutely! When buying an air ticket, at least on the checkout page I see the final price I'm paying. On the contrary, when renting a car a couple of years ago I had following situation - I booked a car and paid, then I arrived at the airport, and at the counter I was told: * 5EUR/day more because I'm below 25yo * 5EUR/day more because it's a diesel car ("so I don't want diesel" - "but we have only diesel") * gas policy is full/empty, so I have to pay for gas in advance; I check the contract and it says I have to pay "market rate", I check online and market rate is 20% less than what they want me to pay, I say this is not market rate, they say it includes surcharge for fueling the car. In the end I didn't have much choice and rented the car, but the experience was much worse than buying air tickets.
- ghaff 9y ago
  Fees in general for rental cars are awful. In the US at least there are also all sorts of taxes, concession fees, high hourly fees if you return at a bit later time than you picked up, etc. It can all add up to 30% or more of the total price so you need to make sure you're comparing apples-to-apples when you make a reservation. On the plus side, most rental cars don't charge for canceling or missing a reservation, returning early, or just not showing up--so there's that.
  - tombrossman 9y ago
    If you reserve (just book, no need to pay in advance) a popular class of vehicle in advance the pick-up location will often not have one available so you get a free upgrade to whichever superior class they do have ready. Also, look for 'off-airport' locations because these do not assess an airport surcharge fee. Off-airport locations are even less likely to have popular classes in stock. Doesn't matter if you just flew in, (remove your airline luggage tags, try not to be obvious) take a taxi to the location. It will frequently be cheaper this way. Off-airport locations are often near airports. As an American living in Europe, I found that some US insurers will issue a 'driver only' policy that covers you while driving rentals in the USA on your European license. I'm paying $24/year for mine which has generous limits and is much cheaper than the coverage rental agencies offer. Also slightly unrelated but don't dare call British Airways to enquire about changing your flight or you will not be able to check in online and you will get the worst seats when you show up for your flight. This is true even if you make no changes, your booking is put in to some kind of frozen state and the phone agents are unable to reverse this. You must visit the BA desk at an airport in person to have this corrected. Bizarre, but this was confirmed by multiple people at BA who I spoke to after having it happen to me.

Scoundreller 9y ago

So, what does a carry-on bag really cost an airline anyway? Is it reasonable to discourage it because the airline needs to pay the airports for each bag and the ability to carry non-passenger cargo is reduced that much?

tradersam 9y ago
The airlines cost are based on weight, as that determines the fuel use for the flight (not including in-flight variances that would also contribute to fuel costs).
- Scoundreller 9y ago
  Not sure why I my question was just about carry-ons... For checked bags, what do the departing and arriving airports charge the airline per-bag for handling?
pxeboot 9y ago
If allowing carry-ons delays boarding by just 5 minutes on average, I imagine the cost to airlines is fairly high.

Scoundreller 9y ago

I guess this is also a way for airlines to devalue their frequent-flyer points programs: the bag is no longer included. Or, in the case of a Canadian airline, Westjet, you get a free checked bag when you have their premium credit card.

monksy 9y ago
That's the same with the United and Chase Milage cards (club and explorer)
saryant 9y ago
Frequent flyers don’t pay bag fees. Airline status comps those fees.
- mseebach 9y ago
  "Airlines" don't collectively do anything. Most airlines' medium tier status and up generally entitles members to some extra baggage allowance, but eg. British Airways basic economy has no baggage allowance, including for status holders.

caseysoftware 9y ago

The new "basic economy" fares are the ones that piss me off. For ~16 months, I've been taking the same handful of United flights between the same locations every few weeks. When they launched "basic economy" they insisted that they would just lower the price for people who didn't care about having a carry on, assigned seats, etc. Not surprisingly, the basic economy fare is what I was paying before and to get all the "perks" like having a carry on, assigned seating or even having the miles count towards status, it's an extra $20-30 each way. They f*d us nicely there.

BostonEnginerd 9y ago
This drives me nuts - not only is it more money, but it seems that most of the people with Economy-- tickets don't realize it and get into fights with the gate agents. It's amazing how effective it is for turning all of the people in the airport against each other.
KozmoNau7 9y ago
We hit a nice little trap while booking our tickets for Christmas (Copenhagen to Stuttgart). The outgoing flight was Lufthansa "Economy Basic", which includes checked luggage. But the return flight was "Economy Light", which doesn't include checked luggage. Since we would actually like to take our bags home with us, it effectively added a hidden fee on top of the original price, just so it would show as "luggage included" in the aggregator.
- dx034 9y ago
  But you surely saw that when you booked? Did you book over some shady website? Lufthansa.com would've definitely warned you before you booked.
  - KozmoNau7 9y ago
    We booked through Google Flights, which only pointed out that checked luggage may incur extra fees. We only spotted the difference on the return flight when we actually went to Lufthansa's site to check that everything was in order. Both flights were shown as "economy" on Google Flights.

chrisbennet 9y ago

I sometimes fantasize about having one of these companies as a client and billing them with fees mirroring the ones they charge i.e. add a fee for “mandated federal and state taxes” (my income taxes), maybe an “internet surcharge” and of course a “fuel surcharge”. My biggest expense next year will be insurance so I’ll definately add an “insurance fee” that in there as well. I’m getting giddy just thinking about it...

megaman22 9y ago

In recent years, the only decent experiences I've had flying have been with JetBlue, European national carriers, and WOW. JetBlue and the European carriers still offer decent service and don't nickel and dime everything. They let you check a bag or two. The gate and flight staff are competent and relatively efficient. The aircraft are clean, well-maintained, and modern. The European carriers even feed you. It's almost as good as flying was before 2000. WOW is a cut-rate airline, and they're upfront about it. The other major carriers are a dumpster fire. I won't even try to fly United or American or Delta anymore.

ghaff 9y ago
JetBlue is definitely one of the better US carriers for those who don't have status. (I typically fly United but I have relatively high status on them.) But JetBlue has adopted a lot of the fee structures of the legacy carriers. They do charge extra for checked luggage now. They have pay for more legroom seats (although their regular seat pitch isn't bad by economy standards). They have pay for early boarding. Their change fees have gone up.

chrismcb 9y ago

I was once charged a ticket purchasing fee! This was not an online free, it would have been charged no matter how I purchased the ticket

dingaling 9y ago
Easyjet in the UK now have a mandatory £15 'administration fee' for each booking. There's no way around it. It would be less galling if they just called it 'Minimum Fare'. Plus they add a 1% credit card charge!
- zinckiwi 9y ago
  The credit card charge I don't mind so much. Budget airlines are understandably concerned about margins, and the 1% they charge is lower than what I understand prevailing credit card handling commissions to be. (Assuming that there is a 1%-free debit card option, of course. If not, then that's just a 1% margin booster in the guise of something else.)
- koyote 9y ago
  The credit card charge should disappear in January once the new law on banning credit card charges is in place :)
  - whamlastxmas 9y ago
    It's already against their merchant agreements, I have doubts the ban will do anything.
    - sokoloff 9y ago
      Effective Jan 27, 2013, surcharges for credit card transactions became permitted by the Visa and Mastercard merchant agreements.

darklajid 9y ago

As someone who literally _just_ ranted on Twitter (and on their 1990s style, "/start.tk" issue website) that Turkish Airlines has never once replied to my messages after losing my bag on the 26th of October: I wish there were a central, democratic review system for airlines, outing them for all their faults. Paying for checked in bags is not fun if the bag doesn't arrive. Fighting for (soon) two weeks to get back what is yours is no fun either. Any public outrage about airline practices gets my upvote.. (I understand that for certain routes you cannot really choose someone else..)

selimthegrim 9y ago
http://www.airlinequality.com/ http://www.airlinequality.com/

JumpCrisscross 9y ago

We’re in a golden age of flying for both airlines and passengers. If you want 1960s style service, first class tickets are cheaper today than the cheapest tickets were back then. The reason airlines nickel and dime is Americans’ preference for cheaper tickets over almost anything else. The bulk of the remaining demand comes from frequent fliers, who are exempted from most fees, or business travellers, who are too profitable to risk pissing off.

TheCoelacanth 9y ago
The itemization of services isn't the problem. It is the hiding of the fees that is the problem. What they are doing now is essentially a bait-and-switch. They should (and should be legally mandated to) be upfront about what they are going to charge you for, include that information prominently when advertising tickets and make the fee information available to third-parties so that ticket shopping sites can offer an accurate comparison of what your total cost will be.

KozmoNau7 9y ago

Unless you're going away for two weeks or more, cabin luggage really should be all you need. Pack smart and pack light, think long and hard about which clothes you're actually going to need. If you're bringing bulky items of clothing (such as hiking boots), wear them on the plane. Don't bring a bunch of extra stuff "just in case", odds are you'll be able to buy whatever it is at your destination. Most airlines allow 55x40x20cm(-ish) size cabin luggage, plus a so-called personal item, which can be as big as 40x30x15cm on some airlines, or described as a purse, a handbag or a slim laptop bag. Sometimes the weight is included in the cabin luggage allowance, sometimes it's not, so you have to check the terms for each airline. This will let you bring a bit of extra luggage, or at least make sure your laptop isn't taking up a bunch of space in your cabin luggage. This may seem like a bunch of needless extra work when packing, for saving a small fee, but it also means you won't have to waste time at the luggage carousel, and it will be much less hassle if you have to go by taxi or public transport. And of course your luggage won't be at the mercy of underpaid and possibly careless luggage workers. Pack smart, avoid fees and hassle.

deepGem 9y ago
When weight is a concern, try not using the carry on bags with wheels. Those bags themselves weigh about 6-7 lbs and the telescopic handle takes up space inside the bag. I use the Amazon basics carryon or the more expensive Patagonia MLC 45L both of which which weigh less than 2.2 lbs and are a breeze to carry on. It's amazing how much space and time (it's much faster to walk with these carry on's) you save when you use these. Oh and these provide O(1) access as they fold like a suitcase and not like a hiking bag which in my view has a best case o(n) access and worst case o(n^n) access.
- JadeNB 9y ago
  > I use the Amazon basics carryon Which one? This sounds like good advice, but I just did a quick search [0], and in the first several results saw only hard-sided spinners and a backpack. [0] https://www.amazon.com/s?field-keywords=Amazon+Basics+carry+on https://www.amazon.com/s?field-keywords=Amazon+Basics+carry+...
- 9y ago

msheif 9y ago

Even though they have clauses on their website explaining that your ticket may be resold, it is still not fair.

chesimov 9y ago

Travelled in the US earlier this year on 3 regional carriers. I realise this is only an anecdote, but I was surprised by a number of things: - tickets stated as direct included a hidden stop and change of plane. - there was an extra charge for a checked bag. - the checked bag was promptly lost on my first flight and returned to me after 5 days. - on one united flight, we had to wait on the tarmac for 1hr45 min while a guy sat each wing of the plane in turn refuelling it with a gas-pump style hose through a port on the wing. This was because the central rapid-fuelling system on the plane was broken. - interior of aircraft was shabby. In one plane they had retrofitted LED lighting in the cabin, but it was too narrow and so exposed hull insulation and other structures in the gap. - seats felt much closer together than usual. What on earth do you do if you're above average height in the US? - price! Unbelievably expensive to fly between cities in the US. In SE Asia or Europe I have travelled between similar sized cities and similar distances for well under half the price in the US and at shorter notice. What ever the airlines may tell you in the US, from the perspective of an outsider, I'm pretty sure they're ripping you off! Edit: formatting

dx034 9y ago
Flying in the US usually has less service and higher prices than Europe. It's often cheaper to fly from Europe to the US than within the US. European airlines also started charging for some extras but it's nowhere near the level of the US. Population density is likely the explanation. In Europe most people fly between major city, small cities are often connected by rail to the next airport. That keeps costs low and makes competition easier. In the US there are few direct connections with a lot of demand so that you need to provide a network, increasing barriers of entrance.
jowiar 9y ago
Regional domestic travel in the US is shit — it’s not particularly profitable, and ends up with many monopolies. Flying between major cities/hubs is generally comfortable and efficient, albeit a hair expensive, but trying to go anywhere small is problematic. What makes the PR situation around this worse is a lot of once-a-year flyers traveling to see family for Christmas (or weddings or funerals) have this as their flying experience. This is both subject to delays (because winter, and specific circled dates on a calendar) and often is when the system is running near full capacity. Thus, air travel as most people experience it is very different from air travel as experienced on most trips — the denominator matters, but it is hard to solve.