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'Big Void' Identified in Khufu's Great Pyramid at Giza
- sdfjkl 9y agoAmazing this stuff still yields secrets after thousands of years. Meanwhile the 3.5" floppy disks in my parents attic on which I've kept all my teenage Turbo Pascal source code have long lost all their data.
- irrational 9y agoReal programmers store their source code on baked clay tablets.
- dredmorbius 9y agoNam shubs.
- Gustomaximus 9y agoCeramic is better. An interesting project here: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/01/human-knowledge-salt-mine/512552/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/01/human...
- bmaupin 9y agoWay off topic, but have you actually tried to read them? I was able to get data off some ~25 year old 5.25" C64 diskettes a few months ago, encouraged by success with data recovery from some 3.5" diskettes a few months before that.
- sdfjkl 9y agoYes, most of them didn't last more than a few years before the bits started falling off. This may partially have been because most of them were SD (720kb) that I'd drilled the HD (1440kb) marker hole into to save money. Worked fine at the time, but probably didn't help boost their longevity.
- dsnuh 9y agoThis is something I think about a lot. How do we build a "data pyramid" that can be interpreted by future generations. I feel like much of our culture will be lost to bit rot.
- pcrh 9y agoWikipedia could be encoded into DNA and them spliced into species that are very long lived, geologically speaking, such as horseshoe crabs. Absent any negative selection against "wiki DNA", they could remain readable in millions of years time.
- gus_massa 9y agoYou will need a very strong error correction scheme. It is not necessary to have a negative selection against "wiki DNA", if there is not positive selection the error will accumulate quickly. With a quick googling, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation_rate#Variation_in_mutation_rates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation_rate#Variation_in_mut... I think that a mutation rate of 10^-5 per base per generation is a good estimation for humans. Let's assume 10^-6 per base per year. So after a million year, with no selection pressure, probably more than a half of the bases will be overwritten with garbage.
- sndean 9y agoIt'd be smarter to simply integrate it into a genome, make copies, extract it, then lyophilize and store it. Don't house it in an organism.
- Houshalter 9y agoLosing only 50% of the data after a million years doesn't sound that bad. The bigger problem is keeping knowledge that the data is there and how to get it to survive even a tenth of that length.
- pcrh 9y agoProbably there would be "signal decay", but one can still make sense of a text when many of the letters are missing. So the decay would have to be more than 50% for the message to be completely useless. Also, a million years is quite a long time, I doubt there are many media one could use that one could expect to still be at least half readable in one million years time.
- yoodenvranx 9y agoSlightly off-topic but perhaps someone has an answer: After finishing "Dark Forest" / "Death’s End" I somehow ended up with the questions if our way of doing archaeology is actually a good idea. Currently we i) remove a lot of things from the ground / graves / ruins, ii) analyze them, iii) put them in a museum and iv) write books about them. This means that all the knowledge about those artifacts and our history is stored in volatile documents and fragile minds. During the next WW3 or WW4 those museums might burn down and all archaeologist might be killed in an anti-intellectual purge. This means that a future generation will neither have the real artifacts in the ground nor our current documentation and all that knowledge about humanities history will be lost forever. Is there any project which strives to preserve our current knowledge about humanity in some sort of long-term storage so that also people in 500 or 2000 years will be able to reconstruct even without having access to 'real' artifacts? Is this actually a problem which current archaeologist think about?
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- Sir_Cmpwn 9y agoWith launch costs coming down it'll soon be more practical to launch a satellite into orbit that can store this information for a long time.
- jacobush 9y agoNever to be found again
- Sir_Cmpwn 9y agoOrbits decay, often at a plannable rate. Eventually it crashes back to earth and becomes an archeological relic for future explorers. I bet you could even design the sattelite to burn specatularly (in many colors) on the way down so it's more likely to be seen and sought after.
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- ceejayoz 9y agoIf it contains a bunch of grain we're going to owe Ben Carson an apology.
- jacobush 9y agoAnd Macgyver?
- tomkinstinch 9y agoCurious that Luis Alvarez (yes, that Luis Albarez) and his team did not find it in their 1970 exploration using a similar approach[1]. 1. http://lappweb.in2p3.fr/~chefdevi/Work_LAPP/Arche/alvarez_70.pdf http://lappweb.in2p3.fr/~chefdevi/Work_LAPP/Arche/alvarez_70... Edit: Thanks to jbmouret for pointing out Alvarez studied a different pyramid in the same complex!
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- yodon 9y agoYes, this work is clearly based on the cosmic ray muon detector approach that Nobel prize winner Luis Alvarez developed in the 1970’s, and looks to be a significant effort that would need considerable international support to accomplish, so somebody obviously thinks there is reason to believe Luie’s team missed something. In addition to the results, I’m very interested to understand what led them to think there might have been something missed in the analysis of the great pyramid of Khufu/Cheops.
- radiorental 9y agoIt's worth watching this video overview of the work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB-MOGw0RMo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB-MOGw0RMo Key takeaways that might answer why the original team missed the clues... note the Simulation results from the Japanese team. Throughout the video it's clear they're chasing the scent of information through data analaysis and visualisation. I think the Hololens stuff at the end is a little fluffy but it speaks to the tools scientists and engineers have available today versus the 70's
- jbmouret 9y agoAlvarez was in a different pyramid (Kephren) and from a single point of view. Also, the precision of the detectors improved a lot since the sixties (this is the kind of detectors that are used in the LHC, for instance).
- f_allwein 9y agoInteresting how the pyramids have been around for 4500 years and we still don't know all about their structure... Fun fact: there's a Neolithic site in Ireland, Newgrange, that's actually older than the pyramids. Fascinating and worth a visit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newgrange https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newgrange
- vowelless 9y agoNothing blows my mind more than Göbekli Tepe, especially its age. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göbekli_Tepe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göbekli_Tepe
- wuliwong 9y agoYes! Göbekli Tepe is so fascinating!
- qubex 9y agoYes I visited it in 2012 and spoke with the German archaeologist who found it, Claus Schmidt. Amazing place and an amazing man, sorely missed.
- nkoren 9y agoFun fact: Cleopatra and Mark Antony etc. lived closer in time to the invention of mobile phones than to the construction of the Great Pyramids. Egyptian history is deep. Funner fact: the Great Pyramids were built closer in time to the invention of mobile phones than to the construction of Göbekli Tepe. Human history is way deep. Funnest fact: if we don't fuck it up, we're still only at the dawn of history, not at the end of it.
- graphitezepp 9y agoYeah but I am pretty worried about us fucking it up these days.
- nkoren 9y ago
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- mrfusion 9y agoSo have people been inside the known chambers? Can you tour them?
- kevindqc 9y agoEgypt's main pyramid sites in Giza are accessible to the general public every day, all year long. Although you can go inside the Great Pyramid of Khufu when you visit, one of the smaller two pyramids usually is closed for restoration work. To further complicate your tourist plans, at the time of publication, only 300 tickets are sold per pyramid, per day. You must arrive early to secure your visit inside
- radiorental 9y agoI've also read that given the economic instability in Cairo, it's just a royal PITA to visit. Tourists get aggressively hassled to buy stuff, camel rides, tours, etc. I've been to New Grange and Stonehenge. While it's pretty neat to go there, it's just a structure. The real value and interest for me is reading up on what the researchers have found out. Let the plinths for Stonehendge were quarried 150 miles away in what is now Wales. Just think about that, mind blowing.
- acqq 9y ago> it's just a structure You haven't been in front of it, right? Not being there once, needing to spend your time and energy, standing there and thinking how old it is, seeing how big it is, makes easier to say something like that.
- radiorental 9y agoI've been inside New Grange and up close to Stonehenge. By all means, if you're in the area they are must sees. I just get more out of the research and you don't have to visit to get that.
- kevindqc 9y agoYeah... I've been there shortly after arab spring when there was next to one there. Camel ride people tried to steal from me, had to tell them I was going straight to the tourist police over there before they gave me back the extra money they took straight from my hands...
- vixen99 9y agoScanPyramids https://youtu.be/ZB-MOGw0RMo https://youtu.be/ZB-MOGw0RMo
- dbatten 9y agoDoes HN have any domain experts that can comment on how reliable this research is? I got super excited about the Queen Nefertiti / King Tut secret chamber theory a year or two back (which used similar methods, it seemed), and was really disappointed when it turned out to be all wrong...
- forgot-my-pw 9y agoFrom the article: The ScanPyramids team is being very careful not to describe the cavity as a "chamber". He says the muon science is sound but he is not yet convinced the discovery has significance. "It could be a kind of space that the builders left to protect the very narrow roof of the grand gallery from the weight of the pyramid," he told the BBC's Science In Action programme. "Right now it's just a big difference; it's an anomaly. But we need more of a focus on it especially in a day and age when we can no longer go blasting our way through the pyramid with gunpowder as [British] Egyptologist Howard Vyse did in the early 1800s." One of the team leaders, Hany Helal from Cairo University, believes the void is too big to have a pressure-relieving purpose, but concedes the experts will debate this. TLDR: don't get too excited.
- radiorental 9y agoIt's say it's pretty solid. Multiple teams from around the world contributed to this I've posted this video elsewhere in the this thread but putting here for completeness. It's a better overview compared to the bbc article. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB-MOGw0RMo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB-MOGw0RMo
- jbmouret 9y agoCo-author here. This is not the same method at all and this is much more reliable. For King Tut, they used ground penetration radar, which is very hard to interpret. Here: (1) this is confirmed by 3 independent teams using 3 different detection technologies, (2) we used the same statistical criteria as for discoveries in particle physics (deviation 5 sigma from the model). In addition, we clearly see the new void on Nagoya's data (Fig.2). Unfortunately, cosmic-ray muons cannot be used in King Tut tomb because we can only see "above us" (the muons come from the sky).
- avar 9y agoThis diagram shows a shaft going into this void from two sides. I was wondering why they don't send a robot down into those. Seems the answer is that they have, but there's something blocking the shaft and they're not willing to destroy it any further for some reason: http://guardians.net/hawass/articles/news_on_the_robot_Dec_2005.htm http://guardians.net/hawass/articles/news_on_the_robot_Dec_2... http://www.crystalinks.com/gantenbrink.html http://www.crystalinks.com/gantenbrink.html http://www.gizapower.com/Articles/door2.html http://www.gizapower.com/Articles/door2.html
- bertomartin 9y ago"...for some reason:" - they shouldn't be allowed to destroy such an important monument to satisfy their curiosity.
- virmundi 9y agoA) proper digging shouldn’t destroy the monument. B) removal of parts of the structure is how we know what’s in it at all. The same is true for any othe other monuments that are structures. We had to dig through the valley of the kings to find the tombs. If we don’t breech the obstruction, we won’t understand the thing.
- justinator 9y agoIt's at the very least, a double-edged sword. You're essentially condoning grave robbing.
- singularity2001 9y agodoes that disprove Jean-Pierre Houdin's beautiful theory, that there is an inner construction passage? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lasCXujNPfs&list=PLf_5zbxiQ4cL42b9vyvGRugPP3eLYmbsq https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lasCXujNPfs&list=PLf_5zbxiQ4...
- qubex 9y agoOn the contrary, it is no coincidence that it this has been found by a team comprised of (also) French academics. This is very much compatible and inspired by his work. His theory involves the Grand Gallery being a purely functional structure required to accodate a trolley that helped serve as a counterweight to heave the massive stones that relieve the weight acting upon the roof of the King’s Chamber. Implicit in this theory is the idea that there are other ”ceremonial routes” from the outside to the King’s Chamber. It is very possible that this is actually the unopened anteroom that contains the provisions for the Pharos’ afterlife (or other artefacts that could be carbon-dated).
- rurban 9y agoThe anteroom, or rather the container room for the ship and horses for his last travel? Or maybe another gallery leading to a third chamber. These are my theories.
- mcphage 9y ago> rather the container room for the ship Didn't they discover ship graves outside the pyramid?
- qubex 9y agoThat’s the idea: an anteroom containing the accoutrements to accompany the Pharaoh on his voyage into the afterlife. According to Houdain’s theory of how they were constructed, the ”Grand Gallery” was basically a machine spade that served no ceremonial purpose whatsoever and was sealed off from the main ceremonial passageways as a bit of an embarrassment. That, in turn, is why we have been oblivious about these other spaces for so long: quite by coincidence, when breaking into the pyramid, the service tunnels were the ones the profaners quite accidentally blundered into. According to Houdain we’ve been crawling around inside the ductwork of the Waldorf Astoria for centuries.
- knowThySelfx 9y agoHere's a different take on all this: http://ajitvadakayil.blogspot.in/2010/12/secrets-of-egyptian-pyramids-revealed.html http://ajitvadakayil.blogspot.in/2010/12/secrets-of-egyptian... http://ajitvadakayil.blogspot.in/2016/10/eight-sided-pyramid-of-giza-egypt.html http://ajitvadakayil.blogspot.in/2016/10/eight-sided-pyramid...
- odammit 9y agoI’ve got $20 that says when they open it up it’s Giorgio Tsoukalos dressed up like Nefertiti and a bunch of Martians getting hammered to a Bangles cover band.
- dmix 9y agoInterestingly the original search for these empty secret chambers in the pyramid helped an architect come up with one of the best theories on how it was built: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d83mn1yxCHc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d83mn1yxCHc Using a combination of an external ramp, up until the point of the King's chamber, then from there it used an internal ramp system that snaked around the edges.
- pgtruesdell 9y agoThe more we learn about the Giza Pyramids, the more they look like some technological device. I highly doubt the common "understanding" that their designed use was a fancy mausoleum for dignitaries. I have no doubt they have been used for this purpose, but unlikely to be the original intent.
- f_allwein 9y agoWhy? There is no evidence for that, is there? Also, look at the great cathedrals of the middle ages - people built them during several lifetimes and at huge expense, and the only "practical" purpose was to have a space for religious services. That and maybe the hope for eternal life after death etc...
- petecox 9y agoThere's a cathedral in Catalonia that began construction in 1882. Its practical purpose is to attract tourists to Barcelona; maybe some day it'll be fully completed as a place of worship.
- foxhop 9y agoI found that this theory was pretty interesting: The Giza Power Plants: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUjYsOXm3IA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUjYsOXm3IA
- dmix 9y agoYou really thought this would be okay to post on HN? https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Giza_pyramids#Power_station_.22theory.22 https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Giza_pyramids#Power_station_.2... > The Giza pyramids have been the cause of more extreme wingnuttery, pseudoscience, bullshit, and woo than any other ancient monument on the planet.
- willvarfar 9y agoFun coincidence: Noticed the newest book on Project Gutenburg is: A HISTORY OF ARCHITECTURE IN ALL COUNTRIES, FROM THE EARLIEST TIMES TO THE PRESENT DAY. By JAMES FERGUSSON, D.C.L., F.R.S., M.R.A.S., FELLOW ROYAL INST. BRIT. ARCHITECTS, So I click on it, and the very first building is the Great Pyramid, complete with diagram: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/55870/55870-h/55870-h.htm#Page_I_97 https://www.gutenberg.org/files/55870/55870-h/55870-h.htm#Pa... 1893.
- dmix 9y agoWasn't our understanding of how the pyramids were built, particularly the great pyramid, still very much up for debate until modern times? Let alone 1893? Plenty of older theories have been debunked. It's an interesting subject no doubt but a more modern source would likely be a better use of time.
- conorcleary 9y agohttp://www.gutenberg.org/files/55870/55870-h/images/ http://www.gutenberg.org/files/55870/55870-h/images/ So what ones should I look at? :-)
- sampo 9y agoThis one: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/55870/55870-h/images/i_129.jpg http://www.gutenberg.org/files/55870/55870-h/images/i_129.jp...
- conorcleary 9y agoIt's not allowing direct linking :/
- sampo 9y agoRight. So the one with filename i_129.jpg.
- fenwick67 9y agoForgive my ignorance, but couldn't this be explored with 20th-century technology like a very long drill bit and a fiber optic camera rig? Every article about this mentions sending up tiny flying robots for some reason.
- RandomBK 9y agoIt's the "very long drill bit" part that's problematic. They're trying to explore with minimal to no damage to the original structure.
- goldenkey 9y agoDoesnt seem like a tiny hole is enough to cause loss of structural integrity or for even anyone to notice. Preservation is important but thinking that it extends to ever centimeter of every weathered brick is quite silly.
- RandomBK 9y agoFrom what I understand, the problem is more political than archaeological. I'm sure the researchers are going all they can as fast as they can within the political, legal, and resource constraints there.
- 1stCommandment 9y agoThe "big void" in the pyramids is very symbolic of the false deities of the Egyptians. Those worthless voids lead to slavery, suffering, and death. Its quite fitting the secular extremists in the US gov use the "big void" pyramid on their seal while they're forcibly freeing us from Elohim's wholesome and life giving ways. Secular = a big void of Elohim. The ancient Egyptians were not genius, not creative, not illuminated, with one exceptional time: When Joseph and his illuminated relatives like Moses were guiding the Pharaoh. Without him, they would have starved from famine. And when his relatives left, they were driven by their prideful rebellion against Elohim to their deaths at the bottom of the Red Sea. Don't worship the tombs of failures, even if they're big and the world calls them great. Great failures maybe, forever documented in Exodus.
- sctb 9y agoWe're not here for religious battle, so we've banned this account which seems like it is. We're happy to unban accounts if you email us at hn@ycombinator.com and we believe you'll post civilly and substantively in the future. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- onion-soup 9y agoIsn't it more interesting that they placed 9 blocks (2.5 tons each) every hour for 30 years to build the pyramid?
- noetic_techy 9y agoNow watch as it never gets excavated. I've yet to see them break open the hidden door they found during some thermal scans recently. Isn't there also known void under the sphinx that was mapped with ground penetrating radar? They just seem to sit on these finds and do nothing.