10 ms·

FTA The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. In a referendum where

by adekok 9y ago

FTA The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. This just isn't a reflection of the will of the population.

thetxef 9y ago
> people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. that is just false. They did not show up because they did not want the referedum to take place.
- nubol 9y ago
  Yeah, maybe because it was not legal, anyway, it does not show in an accurate way the opinion of the Catalans.
  - nubol 9y ago
    Funny that I got downvoted for saying that, I will say it again, it was not legal, and therefore because the lack of participation is not representing the opinion of the Catalans.
    - nubol 9y ago
      Obviously there is no legitimacy on declaring the independence in an unilateral way considering that the referendum was illegal. What is happening is pure "picaresca española" ;)
- CaptSpify 9y ago
  Then it sucks to be them. You can't blame everyone else for making a decision when you refuse to voice your opinion on said decision.
beojan 9y ago
Can't use that excuse when it's the side supporting "no" perpetrating the violence.
- alvatar 9y ago
  The side supporting "yes" perpetrates equal amounts of violence. Is just the propaganda machine is much more developed on that side (with the money from all Spaniards...)
  - ryanlol 9y ago
    Show examples. https://spanishpolice.github.io/ https://spanishpolice.github.io/
    - alvatar 9y ago
      As I said, the propaganda machine is more developed in one side. The story is related by those who have a stronger interest. I've indeed seen videos of violence against those who don't think like the independentist. And I've lived in the region for 6 years, there are many other forms of violence as well. But you can look it up on the internet. You won't find a web index with hundreds of videos though, that doesn't surprise me.
      - yellowapple 9y ago
        "I've indeed seen videos of violence against those who don't think like the independentist." Do you have any links to specific videos?
    - wst_ 9y ago
      Interesting that this page title is "Videos of the Repression lived in Catalonia by the Spanish Police" while the video shows in most cases professional work of the force, especially considering the behavior of crowd. I don't want to take any sides, but know this - crowd plus emotions might turn into something dangerous. We should put emotions aside and then consider the situation. I am not telling that what happened was good, but sometimes you must choose the lesser eveil.
farresito 9y ago
This is incorrect. I saw a few people with Spanish flags and everyone cheered them for voting.
pdabbadabba 9y ago
True enough. Although this is a problem of Madrid's own making. By suppressing the referendum, they virtually guaranteed these results. It seems to me the political situation there is worse than if there has been a peaceful referendum, under protest by Madrid, and Catalans had narrowly voted for independence. They could probably have defused that with some sort of marginal concession to increase the region's autonomy (as they have in the past). But the problem they have now may not be solved so easily.
empath75 9y ago
I don't have a strong position one way or the other, but it seems to me that the Spanish government completely botched their response to the referendum by trying to get by with a raw power play which basically guaranteed that the referendum would pass (which by no means was guaranteed had the referendum but allowed to proceed without interference), leaving Spain with no choice but to use force. Now Catalonia has called their bluff. Spain is going to be left with the choice between letting Catalonia go or attempting to use force to keep them in the state. I don't think Spain is prepared to fight a civil war over this, personally, nor should it. Let them go, keep them in the EU, keep the borders open. With the EU there, it seems like breakups like this don't need to go any worse than splitting up North and South Carolina, for example.
- sametmax 9y ago
  That's the funny thing with the situation. Both sides screw up so bad there is literally no-one to support here. Whatever comment you make in favor for one will be immediately counter by comments that are equally reasonable for the other one.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    Well, if you were the Catalonian government and you wanted to push for independence, what would you do instead? Or are you saying that pushing for independence itself is a screw up?
    - sametmax 9y ago
      As usual people are missing part of the story. Both side screw up. BOTH. E.G: there is a strong racism culture among Catalonia independentists, even against other Spaniards. They even invented part of their cultural heritage to sound more credible (look up their "ancestral cultural dance" origin, it is kinda funny). If you want your independence, not alianating the rest of your neighbors for decades can be a good start. Those events are never unfolding in an instant, but are the consequences of years of complex shenanigans.
sametmax 9y ago
The real catch is more "In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because they didn't want to legitimize a referendum they considered illegal".
gonvaled 9y ago
Not true. People came to the polls wearing Spanish flags. No violence. The Catalan process has thankfully been extremely peaceful. People did not vote in the referendum because it was not officially recognized as such. Because the Spanish government refused to agree on the terms. The referendum was a sad exercise of democracy, in which the voice of lots of Catalans was not heard. But it was the only one that could be organized due to the ferocious opposition of the Central Government. I would prefer the Referendum to be repeated, in better conditions and properly organized, with all parties exposing their arguments, and all citizens interested enough to vote having their voices heard. Sadly, this might now never happen.
- icebraining 9y ago
  The next Catalan elections will be a referendum by another name, no? Obviously without legal force, but if the parties for independence win big, it'll be hard to claim it's for any other reason - and the same for the parties against it.
  - gonvaled 9y ago
    True, and this already happened in the last elections to the Catalan Parliament (Generalitat). But it's sad to fake referendums by hijacking elections, which exist for completely different reasons. This just mixes and confounds lots of different issues, and makes parliamentary elections meaningless. The question of independence is complex enough that warrants a dedicated vote.
  - pjc50 9y ago
    I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't any more Catalan elections or the independence parties were banned from standing in them.
    - marcosdumay 9y ago
      That's a coup of the Spanish State, isn't it?
    - gonvaled 9y ago
pjmlp 9y ago
It is a bit hard to vote when the police doesn't let you reach the places where it is taking place.
Legogris 9y ago
To add to that, the validity of the votes are questionable in the first place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum,_2017#International_observers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendu... > Due to the many irregularities and to the actions taken by the national police and civil guard, the international observers, invited by the Generalitat, declared that the referendum results could not be considered valid as the process failed to meet the minimum international standards for elections. IMO the Catalan government just lost any legitimacy they might have hoped to have by declaring independence prematurely.
- tomp 9y ago
  I'm guessing "national police" referrs to Spanish police and their brutal suppression of the voting, not Catalan police.
  - alvatar 9y ago
    You say "brutal suppression" based on the images you saw in the media, right?
    - 6t6t6t6 9y ago
      Pictures are easy to manipulate. Videos, not so much: https://spanishpolice.github.io/ https://spanishpolice.github.io/
      - alvatar 9y ago
        Videos are taken mostly by those out in the streets, so there are obviously biased towards one side. Is it so hard to believe that both sides exert some kind of violence? Do you really believe that one side is entirely pacifist and the other is aggressive? That kind of narrative should be hard to believe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_g4-4fMoMs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_g4-4fMoMs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ak9224HG_E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ak9224HG_E
  - kgwgk 9y ago
Radim 9y ago
Sure, but the question is, which population? A referendum conventionally happens country wide, surveying a % of the whole population. Not in a self-selected population subset. Otherwise there's this icky question of what subset, what "social unit", is allowed to claim independence? Spain? Catalunya only? Barcelona only? La Rambla? Jose down the street, as an individual, in his own referendum-of-one? This ad-absurdum may sound extreme, but there's really no fundamental difference there. The government astutely identified this as a "slippery slope", with brute power as the primary differentiator in practice.
- gonvaled 9y ago
  This was to be discussed while organizing the referendum. Sadly, the Spanish government refused to even consider the idea.
  - Radim 9y ago
    I know and agree! But that's completely orthogonal to my point. The new Catalan government (or any other government) may find itself presented with the same question, in the future. The writing is on the wall, in this all-or-nothing, binary age (cf. libertarians).
- justin66 9y ago
  > A referendum conventionally happens country wide, surveying a % of the whole population. Not in a self-selected population subset. In the recent Scottish independence referendum, resident Scottish people voted.
nubol 9y ago
In my opinion the referendum was not lawful because: 1- Was not legal, so the participation was low. 2- There were serious irregularities in the voting system. I'm against the violence and I think that the independence of a region is something morally right, but I don't consider that the referendum 1-O legitimizes that the Govern of Catalunya declares the independence of Catalunya in an unilateral manner. I think the Catalan Govern is cheating in its own benefit.
1_2__4 9y ago
You offer not a shred of evidence to back up your claim. Why would anyone believe it?
agumonkey 9y ago
True, Catalans factual issues are understandable, but this was an improper way to change things. It's nicer than fixed elections with fake votes, but it's almost as biased.
- icebraining 9y ago
  How else should they have done it?
  - agumonkey 9y ago
    What about: - no threats to non pro-spain - more time before actual vote so people had time to actually come a rushed vote is bad
    - icebraining 9y ago
      - Which threats has the Catalonian government issued? - Sure, but it's kinda hard to have an orderly vote when you have the National Guard descending on you and trying to stop it.
      - agumonkey 9y ago
        Reports of threats from Catalonians themselves. It's true Spain did wrong too.
        icebraining 9y ago
        You mean, from regular citizens? That's an impossible bar to meet; even the systemd change in Debian had people sending death threats.
barrkel 9y ago
70 out of 135 elected representatives. That's a better reflection than referendums, the typical tool of populists.
frobozz 9y ago
90% of 43% is still nearly 40% That's a better result in favour of independence than Brexit.
Quinner 9y ago
The only violence to be feared was committed by Spanish police, there specifically to suppress the vote.
- pvaldes 9y ago
  > The only violence to be feared was committed by Spanish police This is not true. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_g4-4fMoMs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_g4-4fMoMs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ak9224HG_E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ak9224HG_E
vkou 9y ago
Donald Trump was elected with a smaller mandate then 38% of the voting population. Brexit was done with a smaller mandate then 38% of the voting population. Can we get a do-over on those?

by adekok 9y ago

thetxef 9y ago

> people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. that is just false. They did not show up because they did not want the referedum to take place.

nubol 9y ago
Yeah, maybe because it was not legal, anyway, it does not show in an accurate way the opinion of the Catalans.
- nubol 9y ago
  Funny that I got downvoted for saying that, I will say it again, it was not legal, and therefore because the lack of participation is not representing the opinion of the Catalans.
  - nubol 9y ago
    Obviously there is no legitimacy on declaring the independence in an unilateral way considering that the referendum was illegal. What is happening is pure "picaresca española" ;)
CaptSpify 9y ago
Then it sucks to be them. You can't blame everyone else for making a decision when you refuse to voice your opinion on said decision.

beojan 9y ago

Can't use that excuse when it's the side supporting "no" perpetrating the violence.

alvatar 9y ago
The side supporting "yes" perpetrates equal amounts of violence. Is just the propaganda machine is much more developed on that side (with the money from all Spaniards...)
- ryanlol 9y ago
  Show examples. https://spanishpolice.github.io/ https://spanishpolice.github.io/
  - alvatar 9y ago
    As I said, the propaganda machine is more developed in one side. The story is related by those who have a stronger interest. I've indeed seen videos of violence against those who don't think like the independentist. And I've lived in the region for 6 years, there are many other forms of violence as well. But you can look it up on the internet. You won't find a web index with hundreds of videos though, that doesn't surprise me.
    - yellowapple 9y ago
      "I've indeed seen videos of violence against those who don't think like the independentist." Do you have any links to specific videos?
  - wst_ 9y ago
    Interesting that this page title is "Videos of the Repression lived in Catalonia by the Spanish Police" while the video shows in most cases professional work of the force, especially considering the behavior of crowd. I don't want to take any sides, but know this - crowd plus emotions might turn into something dangerous. We should put emotions aside and then consider the situation. I am not telling that what happened was good, but sometimes you must choose the lesser eveil.

farresito 9y ago

This is incorrect. I saw a few people with Spanish flags and everyone cheered them for voting.

pdabbadabba 9y ago

True enough. Although this is a problem of Madrid's own making. By suppressing the referendum, they virtually guaranteed these results. It seems to me the political situation there is worse than if there has been a peaceful referendum, under protest by Madrid, and Catalans had narrowly voted for independence. They could probably have defused that with some sort of marginal concession to increase the region's autonomy (as they have in the past). But the problem they have now may not be solved so easily.

empath75 9y ago

I don't have a strong position one way or the other, but it seems to me that the Spanish government completely botched their response to the referendum by trying to get by with a raw power play which basically guaranteed that the referendum would pass (which by no means was guaranteed had the referendum but allowed to proceed without interference), leaving Spain with no choice but to use force. Now Catalonia has called their bluff. Spain is going to be left with the choice between letting Catalonia go or attempting to use force to keep them in the state. I don't think Spain is prepared to fight a civil war over this, personally, nor should it. Let them go, keep them in the EU, keep the borders open. With the EU there, it seems like breakups like this don't need to go any worse than splitting up North and South Carolina, for example.

sametmax 9y ago
That's the funny thing with the situation. Both sides screw up so bad there is literally no-one to support here. Whatever comment you make in favor for one will be immediately counter by comments that are equally reasonable for the other one.
- icebraining 9y ago
  Well, if you were the Catalonian government and you wanted to push for independence, what would you do instead? Or are you saying that pushing for independence itself is a screw up?
  - sametmax 9y ago
    As usual people are missing part of the story. Both side screw up. BOTH. E.G: there is a strong racism culture among Catalonia independentists, even against other Spaniards. They even invented part of their cultural heritage to sound more credible (look up their "ancestral cultural dance" origin, it is kinda funny). If you want your independence, not alianating the rest of your neighbors for decades can be a good start. Those events are never unfolding in an instant, but are the consequences of years of complex shenanigans.

sametmax 9y ago

The real catch is more "In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because they didn't want to legitimize a referendum they considered illegal".

gonvaled 9y ago

Not true. People came to the polls wearing Spanish flags. No violence. The Catalan process has thankfully been extremely peaceful. People did not vote in the referendum because it was not officially recognized as such. Because the Spanish government refused to agree on the terms. The referendum was a sad exercise of democracy, in which the voice of lots of Catalans was not heard. But it was the only one that could be organized due to the ferocious opposition of the Central Government. I would prefer the Referendum to be repeated, in better conditions and properly organized, with all parties exposing their arguments, and all citizens interested enough to vote having their voices heard. Sadly, this might now never happen.

icebraining 9y ago
The next Catalan elections will be a referendum by another name, no? Obviously without legal force, but if the parties for independence win big, it'll be hard to claim it's for any other reason - and the same for the parties against it.
- gonvaled 9y ago
  True, and this already happened in the last elections to the Catalan Parliament (Generalitat). But it's sad to fake referendums by hijacking elections, which exist for completely different reasons. This just mixes and confounds lots of different issues, and makes parliamentary elections meaningless. The question of independence is complex enough that warrants a dedicated vote.
- pjc50 9y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't any more Catalan elections or the independence parties were banned from standing in them.
  - marcosdumay 9y ago
    That's a coup of the Spanish State, isn't it?
  - gonvaled 9y ago

pjmlp 9y ago

It is a bit hard to vote when the police doesn't let you reach the places where it is taking place.

Legogris 9y ago

To add to that, the validity of the votes are questionable in the first place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum,_2017#International_observers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendu... > Due to the many irregularities and to the actions taken by the national police and civil guard, the international observers, invited by the Generalitat, declared that the referendum results could not be considered valid as the process failed to meet the minimum international standards for elections. IMO the Catalan government just lost any legitimacy they might have hoped to have by declaring independence prematurely.

tomp 9y ago
I'm guessing "national police" referrs to Spanish police and their brutal suppression of the voting, not Catalan police.
- alvatar 9y ago
  You say "brutal suppression" based on the images you saw in the media, right?
  - 6t6t6t6 9y ago
    Pictures are easy to manipulate. Videos, not so much: https://spanishpolice.github.io/ https://spanishpolice.github.io/
    - alvatar 9y ago
      Videos are taken mostly by those out in the streets, so there are obviously biased towards one side. Is it so hard to believe that both sides exert some kind of violence? Do you really believe that one side is entirely pacifist and the other is aggressive? That kind of narrative should be hard to believe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_g4-4fMoMs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_g4-4fMoMs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ak9224HG_E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ak9224HG_E
- kgwgk 9y ago

Radim 9y ago

Sure, but the question is, which population? A referendum conventionally happens country wide, surveying a % of the whole population. Not in a self-selected population subset. Otherwise there's this icky question of what subset, what "social unit", is allowed to claim independence? Spain? Catalunya only? Barcelona only? La Rambla? Jose down the street, as an individual, in his own referendum-of-one? This ad-absurdum may sound extreme, but there's really no fundamental difference there. The government astutely identified this as a "slippery slope", with brute power as the primary differentiator in practice.

gonvaled 9y ago
This was to be discussed while organizing the referendum. Sadly, the Spanish government refused to even consider the idea.
- Radim 9y ago
  I know and agree! But that's completely orthogonal to my point. The new Catalan government (or any other government) may find itself presented with the same question, in the future. The writing is on the wall, in this all-or-nothing, binary age (cf. libertarians).
justin66 9y ago
> A referendum conventionally happens country wide, surveying a % of the whole population. Not in a self-selected population subset. In the recent Scottish independence referendum, resident Scottish people voted.

nubol 9y ago

In my opinion the referendum was not lawful because: 1- Was not legal, so the participation was low. 2- There were serious irregularities in the voting system. I'm against the violence and I think that the independence of a region is something morally right, but I don't consider that the referendum 1-O legitimizes that the Govern of Catalunya declares the independence of Catalunya in an unilateral manner. I think the Catalan Govern is cheating in its own benefit.

1_2__4 9y ago

You offer not a shred of evidence to back up your claim. Why would anyone believe it?

agumonkey 9y ago

True, Catalans factual issues are understandable, but this was an improper way to change things. It's nicer than fixed elections with fake votes, but it's almost as biased.

icebraining 9y ago
How else should they have done it?
- agumonkey 9y ago
  What about: - no threats to non pro-spain - more time before actual vote so people had time to actually come a rushed vote is bad
  - icebraining 9y ago
    - Which threats has the Catalonian government issued? - Sure, but it's kinda hard to have an orderly vote when you have the National Guard descending on you and trying to stop it.
    - agumonkey 9y ago
      Reports of threats from Catalonians themselves. It's true Spain did wrong too.
      - icebraining 9y ago
        You mean, from regular citizens? That's an impossible bar to meet; even the systemd change in Debian had people sending death threats.

barrkel 9y ago

70 out of 135 elected representatives. That's a better reflection than referendums, the typical tool of populists.

frobozz 9y ago

90% of 43% is still nearly 40% That's a better result in favour of independence than Brexit.

Quinner 9y ago

The only violence to be feared was committed by Spanish police, there specifically to suppress the vote.

pvaldes 9y ago
> The only violence to be feared was committed by Spanish police This is not true. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_g4-4fMoMs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_g4-4fMoMs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ak9224HG_E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ak9224HG_E

vkou 9y ago

Donald Trump was elected with a smaller mandate then 38% of the voting population. Brexit was done with a smaller mandate then 38% of the voting population. Can we get a do-over on those?