12 ms·

Flattr 2.0 launches to the public

152 points by endijs 9y ago

abcd_f 9y ago
> Install the desktop extension If they are expecting me to _install_ something on my precious machine, they'd better be damn explicit what it is and what _exactly_ it does. I can see bits about this and that spread across their blog posts, but nothing cohesive and nothing on the home page itself. All in all though - they appear to be wanting a real-time access to the browsing activity and its full history. That's, of course, an absolute NO regardless of how good the intentions are.
- hybridtupel 9y ago
  There is [1] with a little bit about the privacy issue, but yes you have to trust them, not sending more than the urls to flatter. [1]: https://blog.flattr.net/2017/06/key-elements-of-the-new-flattr-the-all-knowing-privacy-friendly-algorithm/ https://blog.flattr.net/2017/06/key-elements-of-the-new-flat...
  - eterm 9y ago
    It shouldn't even be returning URLs, it should return URL hashes. Even returning URLs seems like a privacy nightmare.
    - detaro 9y ago
      Since the entire purpose of transmitting URLs is making decisions (payment, provide info to potential customers) based on the URL, hashing wouldn't do anything.
      - eterm 9y ago
        If you have the whitelist, you compare the hash on the backend to known hashes. That's how "Safebrowsing" things work, no reason why it couldn't work here too.
        Deimorz 9y ago
        You'd have to know which site each hash relates to, so that you know who to give the money to. So the hashing wouldn't gain anything, since the system only works if they can reverse the hash. It can work for Safebrowsing because they can just have a gigantic list of hashes and it doesn't matter which specific site the user is visiting, only whether it's any site in the list. But for Flattr to work, you need to know which specific site it is.
        eterm 9y ago
        If you produce a list of hashes, you can reverse those hashes simply comparing against the hash. This still isn't private for any URLs in the list, but it does anonymize any URLs which get transmitted in case your white-listing goes bad and allows all. It also makes it clear that you're only transmitting exact matches and not fuzzy matches. This also makes it clear only the URL part and no URL parameters are transmitted which is also important for privacy. (Otherwise any URLs in redirects are also hoovered up). I haven't looked at the flattr code but if it's regex without going through proper URL parsing I also wouldn't trust it to go 'bad' at some point, there are too many edge cases from the tricky to the mundane such as matching on http://example.com#twitter.com http://example.com#twitter.com , etc. A side benefit to hashes for safebrowsing but perhaps a bad thing for this use case is that it also effectively allows you to anonymize a whitelist from your end-users because you can then compare client-side without leaking the list.
  - lsdornheim 9y ago
    Or you can just check the code. Or European privacy laws. Hint: They take this stuff serious!
- rainbowmverse 9y ago
  There's also the small problem of an ever-increasing percentage of traffic coming from mobile browsers with no or limited extension support.
hobofan 9y ago
My thoughts when reading that (in order): - With as many pivots as Flattr had, it should be called Flattr 5.0 (after reading the headline) - Hmm, actually looks really interesting now, and they seem to have tought about the major pitfalls (after reading the blog post) - Nope, not gonna touch that! (after finding out that flatter was acquired by the makers of Adblock Plus) (Oh boy have I made many dismissive comments today...)
- tome 9y ago
  > - Nope, not gonna touch that! (after finding out that flatter was acquired by the makers of Adblock Plus) What's wrong with Adblock Plus? I use it. I thought it was supposed to be good. Is there something I've missed?
  - codewithcheese 9y ago
    They charge advertisers to unblock ads. So actually you will see ads as long as Adblock Plus is making money. They are generally seen as untrustworthy compared to something totally free like uBlock Origin.
    - blfr 9y ago
      So actually you will see ads as long as Adblock Plus is making money. It's literally one checkbox to disable the whitelisted ("non-intrusive") ads.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - vog 9y ago
        As long as that setting is opt-out and not opt-in, they deserve all the criticism they get for this shady business model.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
IvanK_net 9y ago
I would like to point out two things about Flattr: - Whenever other people send you money, Flattr keeps 10% from that money. - When you make money with Flattr, Flattr expects you to give this money back to other authors you like. And they will send them back to other authors. As the money are sent back and forth, and 10% are removed at each step, Flattr is the only one actually making any money.
- icebraining 9y ago
  Flattr expects you to give this money back to other authors you like What does this mean? By the way, apparently the full fee is now quite higher: https://blog.flattr.net/2017/10/our-new-fee-structure/ https://blog.flattr.net/2017/10/our-new-fee-structure/
  - detaro 9y ago
    As a European user, that surely is motivating me to sign up. yeah, we got rid of an efficient payment method so you'll be paying even more. But it's userfriendly that way! Given that the amounts are going to fluctuate anyways, I wonder if tracking multiple currencies would really be so bad?
    - jochung 9y ago
      Yup. SEPA wire transfers are amazing, and it's scandalous how the credit card oligopoly keeps the US in the dark ages when it comes to banking. But America lives off credit, so nothing's going to change any time soon.
      - Tharkun 9y ago
        Credit cards and paper cheques.
  - gkya 9y ago
    That their business model is to get the money move as much as possible, as they charge per transaction.
drops 9y ago
Seems like a lot of hassle. Why shouldn't creators just keep using Patreon? None of the buzzwords in the post would convince me to switch.
- detaro 9y ago
  For creators: Because (assuming it gains a decent userbase) Flattr will give you money from people that not explicitly subscribe to you. For users: because it'll spread your contribution between people who made the content you consume, without individually selecting them and managing that distribution over time. It'll automatically distribute it between sites you visit. It doesn't handle the exact same thing as Patreon, nor are they mutual exclusive.
  - dexterdog 9y ago
    That's a good distillation of the issue. I have been noodling this idea for a good decade now as it's a huge problem to solve. Even micropayments are still payments that you have to decide to make. Really there should be a 'meter' on your media consumption and your $5/mo (or whatever) gets doled out to the creators of the content you consumed over that month. The problem is how do you equate a small single-authored article that takes me 5 minutes to read versus a 4K professionally-produced video that takes me 5 minutes to watch? Also, how do you handle the rise in fake content that will be even more incentivized to scream for eyeballs?
  - rainbowmverse 9y ago
    I always appreciate one-off sales/donations, but they aren't really dependable the way a subscription is. You can't plan or invest around it unless the thing you make is the kind of thing that gets a hobby/business-sustaining amount of sales or donations. A sale/donations says "this is cool." A subscription says "I want to see more of this." For the former, there are sites that popped up and got better established while flattr was twiddling its thumbs for 7 years. If I were going to ask for donations, I'd post a ko-fi link or a bitcoin address, not ask people to install an extension.
    - 9y ago
jyrkesh 9y ago
This might seem super nitpicky (I apologize in advance), but the domain and blog UX needs a little fixing. My 30 second experience: - skim blog, yeah, looks good, heard of this before, hope they're successful, <insert privacy concerns here>, whatever - click logo to try and get to main site - sent to blog.flattr.net instead - go to address bar, remove "blog." - 404 - ugh, maybe they're one of those that only left "www." to go their root page - add "www." - 404 - Google "flattr" - it's "flattr.com" ugh...
- VickBear 9y ago
  For me, I have no idea what Flattr is and trying to read through their .com site gives me no insight really. I see it is supposed to be something that supports content creators and or creatives on the internet, but how and what?
  - akerro 9y ago
    It's like Brave payments https://www.brave.com/introducing-brave-payments/ https://www.brave.com/introducing-brave-payments/ but from Flattr
    - fembot__ 9y ago
      Came here to say this. Also reminiscent of Steem.
  - cyphar 9y ago
    Effectively, you allocate a portion of funds every month to Flattr. Over that month you can click the "flattr" button on any site that has one, and at the end of the month your monthly contribution is split evenly among all of your "flatter" choices. I don't know if they added recurring donations, last I looked at this service was a couple of years ago. EDIT: Apparently they've made it an extension that tracks your browsing history. That's just ridiculous. It's also a shame -- Peter Sunde used to be quite pro-privacy. But they _did_ say they wanted to liberate the extension.
    - 9y ago
aptsurdist 9y ago
I was initially very excited to see this post. I have always believed that flattr's subscription/contribution model could be so important for supporting creatives and grassroots efforts. So I'm disappointed that it seems I can't signup and contribute without installing a browser plugin that can read and change all my browser data and browser history... nope. Flattr team, please fix that and I'll consider giving you another chance. P.S. I've been keeping my eye open for someone trying to implement this subscription/contribution model using blockchain. I haven't been able to find anything -- anyone seen that yet?
- pmlnr 9y ago
  > P.S. I've been keeping my eye open for someone trying to implement this subscription/contribution model using blockchain. I haven't been able to find anything -- anyone seen that yet? What makes you think blockchain is in any form, a relevant, or good tool for this?
- josteink 9y ago
  > So I'm disappointed that it seems I can't signup and contribute without installing a browser plugin that can read and change all my browser data and browser history... nope. The sad thing is you used to be able to do that. I can’t see why they would take that ability away...
- bonqis 9y ago
  The extension is how we can make the solution without any need for integration into sites (and services) and without any effort for the contributor. This is what we learned during the years to be needed for this to work on scale. (The change history is included in the history access scope in Chrome.)
- Ajedi32 9y ago
  How are you expecting it to work without a browser extension? In order to know who to pay, the software needs _some_ way to know what sites you're engaging with.
- Ajedi32 9y ago
  > P.S. I've been keeping my eye open for someone trying to implement this subscription/contribution model using blockchain. Brave browser does this.
tcmb 9y ago
I used to love Flattr's general concept, but from a product management perspective, I'm more than skeptical these changes will drive adoption. They don't make it easier for creators, and consumers now have a default-spending process running with questionable privacy implications, instead of making conscious decisions about whom to support. That being said, I think the general model of Flattr is really great and I've always wondered why the Flattr button wasn't more widely adopted. It seemed like the perfect solution to publishers' monetization crisis. - The transaction happens directly between consumer and creator, without a detour through ads (yes, there is a payment provider involved, but it's a lot more direct through Flattr) - I can pay after I actually consumed the content, when I have full information about its usefulness for me (unlike subscription models and paywalls) - There is a feedback mechanism built in, that lets content creators know what consumers consider pay-worthy. What I would have loved to see was an analysis of key inhibiting factors and then a few well-researched product decisions and how they will remove these inhibitors. I'm worried by Flattr's statement in this post, saying (paraphrased) 'we're not sure how many of you are going to like these changes, but we don't really have any guidance to go by'. Creators still have to sign up with Flattr, so the only thing that's easier for them is that they don't have to add the button to their sites anymore. Consumers still have to manage their payment details and amount per payment cycle, what's easier for them is that they don't have to press the button anymore. But this removes the conscious act of explicitly supporting something I liked to a default mode of supporting everyone on whose site I spend a certain amount of time, no matter if I actually liked what I found there (if I understand the new model correctly). Yes, I can go in afterwards and remove sites from the list of sites I give money to, but that seems much more tedious than pressing a Flattr button once per article/post/whatever that I actually enjoyed and want to consciously support. Now I need to be careful about who I give money to. I'd like me spending money to be a conscious decision, not an automated process running by default in the background.
- bonqis 9y ago
  You hit the head on the nail, but from the wrong angle ;) That what you liked was actually exactly why we failed so far. 1. Users needed to do a conscious choice, clicking the button. Our research and data showed that was not what people wanted or did. 2. The button was to hard to add to a site and also visible and promoted a brand etc. All things publishers don't want. Besides the button does not work on any social network or content platform. The new solution works anywhere and is when it's hardest to use adding a meta-tag. The new solution is a "fire and forget" solution. You set it up ones and then it just work. For both contributors and creators/publishers.
stefanwlb 9y ago
Another greeedy group willing to "steal" others' hard work while doing absolutely nothing to contribute value.
hmans 9y ago
Still a scam.
dec0dedab0de 9y ago
Are they claiming that installing local spyware is somehow more secure than if they just used third party cookies to track their users usage? I mean its bad enough that an ad network knows when you goto a participating site, but this would have access to so much more. With zero benefit over using the same techniques google and facebook use to track you.
- bonqis 9y ago
  Absolutely the opposite! We keep all your private data on your device where the algorithm runs and makes decisions on what to flattr. Instead of sending it all to us and then do the same on our servers. This is very conscious choice to make the service privacy friendly.
stevenj 9y ago
Some things to consider about Flattr: you have to install a web browser extension; the extension requires access to your full browsing history; it was bought by the parent company of Adblock Plus, Eyeo.
- singularity2001 9y ago
  Thanks for the info. That suffices.
- VikingCoder 9y ago
  You didn't used to have to have a browser extension, not for sites that participated. So for instance, I had flatr configured to follow all of my YouTube Likes...
  - bonqis 9y ago
    The extension uses a lot of data points (including your browser history) to decide what to flattr. But we never get the full data, the algorithm runs in the browser and only the results (the flattrs) are sent to us. This is the most privacy friendly solution possible that still gives enough data for us to know who should get the money and for you to know what you flattred. As well as for creators and publishers to know what content actually generated the money.
- mintplant 9y ago
  And they're explicitly tracking and logging it all to their servers: > With the Flattr button it was only possible to flattr creators that joined Flattr. The new extension does not use the button so it does not need to know if there is a signed up receiver or not for flattrs. So simply put, if there is an owner they gets your money, if not the flattrs become the statistics we need to convince the creators. Yikes. Don't use this, they clearly don't care about privacy.
  - lsdornheim 9y ago
    That is just plain wrong. Check the privacy policy: https://flattr.com/files/privacy_policy.pdf https://flattr.com/files/privacy_policy.pdf The extension keeps everything locally, only the information necessary to make payments is transferred. There is even a blacklist in place that prevents any information about sensitive sites (online banking, mail accounts, other adult content) from ever being stored. Here is a blogpost about it: https://blog.flattr.net/2017/06/key-elements-of-the-new-flattr-the-all-knowing-privacy-friendly-algorithm/ https://blog.flattr.net/2017/06/key-elements-of-the-new-flat...
dexterdog 9y ago
The key to a concept like this is massive, massive adoption by content creators. Flattr has been around for 7+ years and it's still relatively non-existent. Heck, the subreddit has 63 subscribers. Don't get me wrong. I love the idea and was trying to pitch people for funding on this almost 10 years ago and never hit anything but a brick wall.
- majewsky 9y ago
  Classic chicken-egg problem. 1. Why should a creator subscribe if it's not going to be a relevant revenue stream? 2. Why should a consumer subscribe (at a fixed fee, no less) if their favorite creators do not support it?
  - rainbowmverse 9y ago
    Patreon solved this problem by being developed as a solution to the founder's own problem (getting paid), and priming it with his own fanbase. Do flattr's founders use it for their own creative work?
    - dexterdog 9y ago
      My problem with patreon is that (from my recollection) everything is a subscription so you are committing to not just a fixed payment now, but a recurring payment to a bunch of different sources. I can't just pay $X/month and have it divided among the recipients that I actually patronized in a given month. Patreon is great for things like supporting a band or podcaster or something there there is not an easy way to tie it back to actual usage, but the recipient has to make a sale up-front.
  - Ajedi32 9y ago
    I actually think Flattr is doing a good job of solving this. Consumers can simply sign up without worrying about who supports it, and creators that don't support it will be notified that they're leaving money on the table by not accepting payments via Flattr. It's basically the same model Brave is using with their Basic Attention Token platform.
mtgx 9y ago
My guess is something like STEEM will eventually become mainstream, and people will be able to upvote/like posts on the internet with real money.
endijs 9y ago
I was big fan of original Flattr, that's why i was excited for 2.0 too. However that "extension" setup is something that still keeps me in evaluation phase, rather than 100% in. I inspected extension (not 100% of it, but a bit of code, storage, xhr calls). Some findings: * They use whitelist (visible in source) of sites, thus they do not record activity on all sites, but just the ones in whitelist. * You can individually block sites from being tracked even if they are in whitelist (by click on the icon). This gets respected. * They store a lot of data "locally". Things like timestamps, cursor activity, time spent on the page etc. This does not get sent to flattr, but sits in local storage. * Once "site/page" qualifies for a flattr, path with title is sent to flattr. No other information (i.e. - no query string, no mouse activity etc.). * They record things, that they should blacklist. For example - common cms paths (wp-admin/) is reported, but should not be. In some sites they report paths that should be blacklisted (like in twitter they report /settings/ ). * In youtube.com icon for extension looks disabled (like nothing is being recorded), however they still store data in local db (browsing history, videos viewed). Nothing is sent to flattr though. This should be updated. Either show in icon that you record data, or do not record anything. All in all extension does not look malicious at the moment. But it's not perfect either. And i'm not sure that there will be a point where i will feel 100% confident with it. Most likely i will try to use it, but will continue to inspect regularly to see if its still solid. Edited: fixed some typos.
- vog 9y ago
  I never understood why they decided to coorperate with the AdBlock Plus creators. From a technology point of view, that might have been a gain for them. But does this outweigh the loss of the "trust in advance" that they would otherwise receive? Also, what's about the risk of being dragged into bad reputation? (Which might happen as soon as AdBlock Plus gets bad media coverage, once again.)
  - endijs 9y ago
    As Flattr 1.0 did not get any traction, my guess is that they went with AdBlock Plus creators (Eyeo) just because Flattr run out of cash and Eyeo was the one who offered to invest and later on to buy out. Simple math. Even though I'm not fan of what Eyeo have done in the past, fact that old team was able to continue to work on this, makes me hopeful, that this will not turn out to be some sort of malicious or grey area project. But time will tell.
ensignavenger 9y ago
They now charge a massive 16.5% fee.
leopld 9y ago
I used to be quite excited about Flattr. The ideology they stand for is what makes them exciting, so I don't want to judge them by their brand, but still I can't help but feel that their communication and product design is honestly terrible. They communicated almost nothing for around 3 years, and now they're back to relaunch. I just don't feel very confident about their organization.
- bonqis 9y ago
  :( yeah, things took way longer than we wanted. It always does.
falcolas 9y ago
Any word on their content limitations? With the recent kerfluffel between Patreon and adult content creators, is this an alternative? I'm going to guess not, given the association with Visa and MC only. ... Had to dig - nope: > Pornographic or highly suggestive content or images that violate the applicable laws. Their "Types of websites not permitted" list is fairly long: https://flattr.com/files/terms.pdf https://flattr.com/files/terms.pdf
- bonqis 9y ago
  Yes, this is correct. In general payment providers has these set of rules/policies, that because the large institutions like Visa, Mastercard and banks does not accept these areas of payments.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
VickBear 9y ago
What is it with so many new sites and companies give such a vague description of what they do. I am literally clueless.
ttoinou 9y ago
So, does monthly payment works now ? I tried flattr years ago and it didn't even do it, that's a pretty obvious feature...
- bonqis 9y ago
  Yes, now it's a subscription service.
jasode 9y ago
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I thought using Flattr is not as easy on mobile phones. It requires using a separate browser app. (E.g. the Adblock browser app for Android). Since ~99% of smartphone users won't using anything but the default iPhone Safari or Android Chrome browser, this leaves out most audiences[1] that Flattr can't reach. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=majority+browse+web+with+mobile+phones https://www.google.com/search?q=majority+browse+web+with+mob...
BLanen 9y ago
Patreon with less features but a browser extension?
- bonqis 9y ago
  Nope, Patreon focuses on person and fame, and is one to one payments. We focus on content and divides your money to any number of creators.
discordianfish 9y ago
Couldn't you just use cookies to track which creator a user visits and how often? I doubt many people are willing to install a extension for that.
- bonqis 9y ago
  Nope, not possible on any content site (eg youtube) and it also needs the site to add it. Neither would it give us enough data to create what we have done. The algorithm in the extension is smarter about what it flattrs than a cookie could ever be. And more privacy friendly too.
gressquel 9y ago
install a software? i think im passing on this one. too much spyware floating around these days
- bonqis 9y ago
  There is nothing like that in our extension, feel free to check the code =)
  - vog 9y ago
    Not now, but what about the 10th update? In general, I don't think it works that way. If you want people to install your code in a privileged position (such as a browser extension), you need to appear trustworthy. You essentially ask your users for a credit of trust. And yes, being able to say "just read the code" is absolutely necessary, but it is not sufficient. You usually get trust by having a great track record in the past, or by cooperating with others who do have such a track record.
visarga 9y ago
I looked for 2 minutes trying to find out what "Flattr" is.
j05huaNathaniel 9y ago
I just don't see this being worthwhile.
johndoe489 9y ago
I'd rather make few, but meaningful contributions to creators with a system like Patreon or Kickstarter, than make many "micro", meaningless payments without a clue where my money is going. This is failed from the get go. The whole idea that the program is going to determine where your attention goes, and how that relates to your contributions. Maybe I read a blog I contribute to, and it takes a lot of time, yet I download music from an artist I want to contribute even more to, but I spend 5 mins on his site to download the music. For small creators I think this is dumb and almost deceitful. You're not going to make anything from hundreds of micro payments. You aren't an (fairly popular) artist on Spotify earning revenue from millions of streamings. I have a small site on Patreon that people find useful and earn a little over a hundred USD a month atm, from less than 30 patrons. I don't even have any "perks" atm. I can't imagine earning even 10 $ from something like Flattr, much less Google Ads (but I digress ;)). Point being for small creators the connection to the audience, and how meaningful their contribution is I think is key. Making micro payments in a way that's invisible to me as a contributor, that's meaningless and I feel no connection to the creator.
- BlueTemplar 9y ago
  What would you rather have : ads or Flattr 2.0 micropayments? This is what it is about. (Yes, I know, you can block ads, but adblockers, Patreon, and subscription efforts combined don't seem like they have put a significant dent in advertising revenues...)
bonqis 9y ago
Hi, I'm Linus co-founder of Flattr. Will try and answer any questions you might have!
jack_quack 9y ago
Which will win 1. Flattr 2. Basic Attention Token 3. Cryptocurrency browser mining?
- bonqis 9y ago
  4. North Korea
kybernetikos 9y ago
Personally I like platforms like https://liberapay.com https://liberapay.com and https://gratipay.com https://gratipay.com which fund themselves via themselves. I certainly think that 7.5% is too high for the kind of service that Flattr provides.
bauerd 9y ago
I remember Flattr from a long time ago, when some German podcasters made a push for it. Thought it was a great idea at that time. If I remember correctly, it was a small square button with the number of tippers below it and upon click one's monthly spending balance would in part go to the creator. A few months ago I stumbled upon Flattr again (thought it was dead till that day). Couldn't log in with my old credentials, couldn't sign up for new ones, but was told that I can put myself on the waiting list for "Flattr 2". Now that this Flattr 2 thing has launched I can't help but ask myself how badly you can fuck up a product that once had an enthusiastic user base. Not only that they told existing users to sign up for their product again, the product now is much more cumbersome (browser extension required) and costly because of the fees. I strongly believe that there's a need for social micropayments done right, but I don't see myself ever making a deposit to Flattr. Someone should simply clone Flattr 1 and keep the fees as low as possible. It was a good and much needed product.
- BlueTemplar 9y ago
  The Twitter ban has killed Flattr 1.0 : https://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/04/16/flattr-twitter-payments-ban/ https://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/04/16/flattr-twitter-pay... I don't understand how you can say that the product is more cumbersome. Another reason that Flattr 1.0 failed is because it was too cumbersome both for tippers (that had to click yet another "Like"-like button) and for website developers (that had to implement the "Flattr" buttons). And Flattr 1.0 already had fees, 11% IIRC. And then Patreon swooped in with their much simpler model (X$/month to a specific creator) and ate Flattr's lunch. Now with Flattr 2.0 you just have a browser extension you have to install, and it's automatic after that! How much easier can it get!?

152 points by endijs 9y ago

> Install the desktop extension If they are expecting me to _install_ something on my precious machine, they'd better be damn explicit what it is and what _exactly_ it does. I can see bits about this and that spread across their blog posts, but nothing cohesive and nothing on the home page itself. All in all though - they appear to be wanting a real-time access to the browsing activity and its full history. That's, of course, an absolute NO regardless of how good the intentions are.

hybridtupel 9y ago
There is [1] with a little bit about the privacy issue, but yes you have to trust them, not sending more than the urls to flatter. [1]: https://blog.flattr.net/2017/06/key-elements-of-the-new-flattr-the-all-knowing-privacy-friendly-algorithm/ https://blog.flattr.net/2017/06/key-elements-of-the-new-flat...
- eterm 9y ago
  It shouldn't even be returning URLs, it should return URL hashes. Even returning URLs seems like a privacy nightmare.
  - detaro 9y ago
    Since the entire purpose of transmitting URLs is making decisions (payment, provide info to potential customers) based on the URL, hashing wouldn't do anything.
    - eterm 9y ago
      If you have the whitelist, you compare the hash on the backend to known hashes. That's how "Safebrowsing" things work, no reason why it couldn't work here too.
      - Deimorz 9y ago
        You'd have to know which site each hash relates to, so that you know who to give the money to. So the hashing wouldn't gain anything, since the system only works if they can reverse the hash. It can work for Safebrowsing because they can just have a gigantic list of hashes and it doesn't matter which specific site the user is visiting, only whether it's any site in the list. But for Flattr to work, you need to know which specific site it is.
        eterm 9y ago
        If you produce a list of hashes, you can reverse those hashes simply comparing against the hash. This still isn't private for any URLs in the list, but it does anonymize any URLs which get transmitted in case your white-listing goes bad and allows all. It also makes it clear that you're only transmitting exact matches and not fuzzy matches. This also makes it clear only the URL part and no URL parameters are transmitted which is also important for privacy. (Otherwise any URLs in redirects are also hoovered up). I haven't looked at the flattr code but if it's regex without going through proper URL parsing I also wouldn't trust it to go 'bad' at some point, there are too many edge cases from the tricky to the mundane such as matching on http://example.com#twitter.com http://example.com#twitter.com , etc. A side benefit to hashes for safebrowsing but perhaps a bad thing for this use case is that it also effectively allows you to anonymize a whitelist from your end-users because you can then compare client-side without leaking the list.
- lsdornheim 9y ago
  Or you can just check the code. Or European privacy laws. Hint: They take this stuff serious!
rainbowmverse 9y ago
There's also the small problem of an ever-increasing percentage of traffic coming from mobile browsers with no or limited extension support.

hobofan 9y ago

My thoughts when reading that (in order): - With as many pivots as Flattr had, it should be called Flattr 5.0 (after reading the headline) - Hmm, actually looks really interesting now, and they seem to have tought about the major pitfalls (after reading the blog post) - Nope, not gonna touch that! (after finding out that flatter was acquired by the makers of Adblock Plus) (Oh boy have I made many dismissive comments today...)

tome 9y ago
> - Nope, not gonna touch that! (after finding out that flatter was acquired by the makers of Adblock Plus) What's wrong with Adblock Plus? I use it. I thought it was supposed to be good. Is there something I've missed?
- codewithcheese 9y ago
  They charge advertisers to unblock ads. So actually you will see ads as long as Adblock Plus is making money. They are generally seen as untrustworthy compared to something totally free like uBlock Origin.
  - blfr 9y ago
    So actually you will see ads as long as Adblock Plus is making money. It's literally one checkbox to disable the whitelisted ("non-intrusive") ads.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - vog 9y ago
      As long as that setting is opt-out and not opt-in, they deserve all the criticism they get for this shady business model.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

IvanK_net 9y ago

I would like to point out two things about Flattr: - Whenever other people send you money, Flattr keeps 10% from that money. - When you make money with Flattr, Flattr expects you to give this money back to other authors you like. And they will send them back to other authors. As the money are sent back and forth, and 10% are removed at each step, Flattr is the only one actually making any money.

icebraining 9y ago
Flattr expects you to give this money back to other authors you like What does this mean? By the way, apparently the full fee is now quite higher: https://blog.flattr.net/2017/10/our-new-fee-structure/ https://blog.flattr.net/2017/10/our-new-fee-structure/
- detaro 9y ago
  As a European user, that surely is motivating me to sign up. yeah, we got rid of an efficient payment method so you'll be paying even more. But it's userfriendly that way! Given that the amounts are going to fluctuate anyways, I wonder if tracking multiple currencies would really be so bad?
  - jochung 9y ago
    Yup. SEPA wire transfers are amazing, and it's scandalous how the credit card oligopoly keeps the US in the dark ages when it comes to banking. But America lives off credit, so nothing's going to change any time soon.
    - Tharkun 9y ago
      Credit cards and paper cheques.
- gkya 9y ago
  That their business model is to get the money move as much as possible, as they charge per transaction.

drops 9y ago

Seems like a lot of hassle. Why shouldn't creators just keep using Patreon? None of the buzzwords in the post would convince me to switch.

detaro 9y ago
For creators: Because (assuming it gains a decent userbase) Flattr will give you money from people that not explicitly subscribe to you. For users: because it'll spread your contribution between people who made the content you consume, without individually selecting them and managing that distribution over time. It'll automatically distribute it between sites you visit. It doesn't handle the exact same thing as Patreon, nor are they mutual exclusive.
- dexterdog 9y ago
  That's a good distillation of the issue. I have been noodling this idea for a good decade now as it's a huge problem to solve. Even micropayments are still payments that you have to decide to make. Really there should be a 'meter' on your media consumption and your $5/mo (or whatever) gets doled out to the creators of the content you consumed over that month. The problem is how do you equate a small single-authored article that takes me 5 minutes to read versus a 4K professionally-produced video that takes me 5 minutes to watch? Also, how do you handle the rise in fake content that will be even more incentivized to scream for eyeballs?
- rainbowmverse 9y ago
  I always appreciate one-off sales/donations, but they aren't really dependable the way a subscription is. You can't plan or invest around it unless the thing you make is the kind of thing that gets a hobby/business-sustaining amount of sales or donations. A sale/donations says "this is cool." A subscription says "I want to see more of this." For the former, there are sites that popped up and got better established while flattr was twiddling its thumbs for 7 years. If I were going to ask for donations, I'd post a ko-fi link or a bitcoin address, not ask people to install an extension.
  - 9y ago

jyrkesh 9y ago

This might seem super nitpicky (I apologize in advance), but the domain and blog UX needs a little fixing. My 30 second experience: - skim blog, yeah, looks good, heard of this before, hope they're successful, <insert privacy concerns here>, whatever - click logo to try and get to main site - sent to blog.flattr.net instead - go to address bar, remove "blog." - 404 - ugh, maybe they're one of those that only left "www." to go their root page - add "www." - 404 - Google "flattr" - it's "flattr.com" ugh...

VickBear 9y ago
For me, I have no idea what Flattr is and trying to read through their .com site gives me no insight really. I see it is supposed to be something that supports content creators and or creatives on the internet, but how and what?
- akerro 9y ago
  It's like Brave payments https://www.brave.com/introducing-brave-payments/ https://www.brave.com/introducing-brave-payments/ but from Flattr
  - fembot__ 9y ago
    Came here to say this. Also reminiscent of Steem.
- cyphar 9y ago
  Effectively, you allocate a portion of funds every month to Flattr. Over that month you can click the "flattr" button on any site that has one, and at the end of the month your monthly contribution is split evenly among all of your "flatter" choices. I don't know if they added recurring donations, last I looked at this service was a couple of years ago. EDIT: Apparently they've made it an extension that tracks your browsing history. That's just ridiculous. It's also a shame -- Peter Sunde used to be quite pro-privacy. But they _did_ say they wanted to liberate the extension.
  - 9y ago

aptsurdist 9y ago

I was initially very excited to see this post. I have always believed that flattr's subscription/contribution model could be so important for supporting creatives and grassroots efforts. So I'm disappointed that it seems I can't signup and contribute without installing a browser plugin that can read and change all my browser data and browser history... nope. Flattr team, please fix that and I'll consider giving you another chance. P.S. I've been keeping my eye open for someone trying to implement this subscription/contribution model using blockchain. I haven't been able to find anything -- anyone seen that yet?

pmlnr 9y ago
> P.S. I've been keeping my eye open for someone trying to implement this subscription/contribution model using blockchain. I haven't been able to find anything -- anyone seen that yet? What makes you think blockchain is in any form, a relevant, or good tool for this?
josteink 9y ago
> So I'm disappointed that it seems I can't signup and contribute without installing a browser plugin that can read and change all my browser data and browser history... nope. The sad thing is you used to be able to do that. I can’t see why they would take that ability away...
bonqis 9y ago
The extension is how we can make the solution without any need for integration into sites (and services) and without any effort for the contributor. This is what we learned during the years to be needed for this to work on scale. (The change history is included in the history access scope in Chrome.)
Ajedi32 9y ago
How are you expecting it to work without a browser extension? In order to know who to pay, the software needs _some_ way to know what sites you're engaging with.
Ajedi32 9y ago
> P.S. I've been keeping my eye open for someone trying to implement this subscription/contribution model using blockchain. Brave browser does this.

tcmb 9y ago

I used to love Flattr's general concept, but from a product management perspective, I'm more than skeptical these changes will drive adoption. They don't make it easier for creators, and consumers now have a default-spending process running with questionable privacy implications, instead of making conscious decisions about whom to support. That being said, I think the general model of Flattr is really great and I've always wondered why the Flattr button wasn't more widely adopted. It seemed like the perfect solution to publishers' monetization crisis. - The transaction happens directly between consumer and creator, without a detour through ads (yes, there is a payment provider involved, but it's a lot more direct through Flattr) - I can pay after I actually consumed the content, when I have full information about its usefulness for me (unlike subscription models and paywalls) - There is a feedback mechanism built in, that lets content creators know what consumers consider pay-worthy. What I would have loved to see was an analysis of key inhibiting factors and then a few well-researched product decisions and how they will remove these inhibitors. I'm worried by Flattr's statement in this post, saying (paraphrased) 'we're not sure how many of you are going to like these changes, but we don't really have any guidance to go by'. Creators still have to sign up with Flattr, so the only thing that's easier for them is that they don't have to add the button to their sites anymore. Consumers still have to manage their payment details and amount per payment cycle, what's easier for them is that they don't have to press the button anymore. But this removes the conscious act of explicitly supporting something I liked to a default mode of supporting everyone on whose site I spend a certain amount of time, no matter if I actually liked what I found there (if I understand the new model correctly). Yes, I can go in afterwards and remove sites from the list of sites I give money to, but that seems much more tedious than pressing a Flattr button once per article/post/whatever that I actually enjoyed and want to consciously support. Now I need to be careful about who I give money to. I'd like me spending money to be a conscious decision, not an automated process running by default in the background.

bonqis 9y ago
You hit the head on the nail, but from the wrong angle ;) That what you liked was actually exactly why we failed so far. 1. Users needed to do a conscious choice, clicking the button. Our research and data showed that was not what people wanted or did. 2. The button was to hard to add to a site and also visible and promoted a brand etc. All things publishers don't want. Besides the button does not work on any social network or content platform. The new solution works anywhere and is when it's hardest to use adding a meta-tag. The new solution is a "fire and forget" solution. You set it up ones and then it just work. For both contributors and creators/publishers.

stefanwlb 9y ago

Another greeedy group willing to "steal" others' hard work while doing absolutely nothing to contribute value.

hmans 9y ago

Still a scam.

dec0dedab0de 9y ago

Are they claiming that installing local spyware is somehow more secure than if they just used third party cookies to track their users usage? I mean its bad enough that an ad network knows when you goto a participating site, but this would have access to so much more. With zero benefit over using the same techniques google and facebook use to track you.

bonqis 9y ago
Absolutely the opposite! We keep all your private data on your device where the algorithm runs and makes decisions on what to flattr. Instead of sending it all to us and then do the same on our servers. This is very conscious choice to make the service privacy friendly.

stevenj 9y ago

Some things to consider about Flattr: you have to install a web browser extension; the extension requires access to your full browsing history; it was bought by the parent company of Adblock Plus, Eyeo.

singularity2001 9y ago
Thanks for the info. That suffices.
VikingCoder 9y ago
You didn't used to have to have a browser extension, not for sites that participated. So for instance, I had flatr configured to follow all of my YouTube Likes...
- bonqis 9y ago
  The extension uses a lot of data points (including your browser history) to decide what to flattr. But we never get the full data, the algorithm runs in the browser and only the results (the flattrs) are sent to us. This is the most privacy friendly solution possible that still gives enough data for us to know who should get the money and for you to know what you flattred. As well as for creators and publishers to know what content actually generated the money.
mintplant 9y ago
And they're explicitly tracking and logging it all to their servers: > With the Flattr button it was only possible to flattr creators that joined Flattr. The new extension does not use the button so it does not need to know if there is a signed up receiver or not for flattrs. So simply put, if there is an owner they gets your money, if not the flattrs become the statistics we need to convince the creators. Yikes. Don't use this, they clearly don't care about privacy.
- lsdornheim 9y ago
  That is just plain wrong. Check the privacy policy: https://flattr.com/files/privacy_policy.pdf https://flattr.com/files/privacy_policy.pdf The extension keeps everything locally, only the information necessary to make payments is transferred. There is even a blacklist in place that prevents any information about sensitive sites (online banking, mail accounts, other adult content) from ever being stored. Here is a blogpost about it: https://blog.flattr.net/2017/06/key-elements-of-the-new-flattr-the-all-knowing-privacy-friendly-algorithm/ https://blog.flattr.net/2017/06/key-elements-of-the-new-flat...

dexterdog 9y ago

The key to a concept like this is massive, massive adoption by content creators. Flattr has been around for 7+ years and it's still relatively non-existent. Heck, the subreddit has 63 subscribers. Don't get me wrong. I love the idea and was trying to pitch people for funding on this almost 10 years ago and never hit anything but a brick wall.

majewsky 9y ago
Classic chicken-egg problem. 1. Why should a creator subscribe if it's not going to be a relevant revenue stream? 2. Why should a consumer subscribe (at a fixed fee, no less) if their favorite creators do not support it?
- rainbowmverse 9y ago
  Patreon solved this problem by being developed as a solution to the founder's own problem (getting paid), and priming it with his own fanbase. Do flattr's founders use it for their own creative work?
  - dexterdog 9y ago
    My problem with patreon is that (from my recollection) everything is a subscription so you are committing to not just a fixed payment now, but a recurring payment to a bunch of different sources. I can't just pay $X/month and have it divided among the recipients that I actually patronized in a given month. Patreon is great for things like supporting a band or podcaster or something there there is not an easy way to tie it back to actual usage, but the recipient has to make a sale up-front.
- Ajedi32 9y ago
  I actually think Flattr is doing a good job of solving this. Consumers can simply sign up without worrying about who supports it, and creators that don't support it will be notified that they're leaving money on the table by not accepting payments via Flattr. It's basically the same model Brave is using with their Basic Attention Token platform.

mtgx 9y ago

My guess is something like STEEM will eventually become mainstream, and people will be able to upvote/like posts on the internet with real money.

endijs 9y ago

I was big fan of original Flattr, that's why i was excited for 2.0 too. However that "extension" setup is something that still keeps me in evaluation phase, rather than 100% in. I inspected extension (not 100% of it, but a bit of code, storage, xhr calls). Some findings: * They use whitelist (visible in source) of sites, thus they do not record activity on all sites, but just the ones in whitelist. * You can individually block sites from being tracked even if they are in whitelist (by click on the icon). This gets respected. * They store a lot of data "locally". Things like timestamps, cursor activity, time spent on the page etc. This does not get sent to flattr, but sits in local storage. * Once "site/page" qualifies for a flattr, path with title is sent to flattr. No other information (i.e. - no query string, no mouse activity etc.). * They record things, that they should blacklist. For example - common cms paths (wp-admin/) is reported, but should not be. In some sites they report paths that should be blacklisted (like in twitter they report /settings/ ). * In youtube.com icon for extension looks disabled (like nothing is being recorded), however they still store data in local db (browsing history, videos viewed). Nothing is sent to flattr though. This should be updated. Either show in icon that you record data, or do not record anything. All in all extension does not look malicious at the moment. But it's not perfect either. And i'm not sure that there will be a point where i will feel 100% confident with it. Most likely i will try to use it, but will continue to inspect regularly to see if its still solid. Edited: fixed some typos.

vog 9y ago
I never understood why they decided to coorperate with the AdBlock Plus creators. From a technology point of view, that might have been a gain for them. But does this outweigh the loss of the "trust in advance" that they would otherwise receive? Also, what's about the risk of being dragged into bad reputation? (Which might happen as soon as AdBlock Plus gets bad media coverage, once again.)
- endijs 9y ago
  As Flattr 1.0 did not get any traction, my guess is that they went with AdBlock Plus creators (Eyeo) just because Flattr run out of cash and Eyeo was the one who offered to invest and later on to buy out. Simple math. Even though I'm not fan of what Eyeo have done in the past, fact that old team was able to continue to work on this, makes me hopeful, that this will not turn out to be some sort of malicious or grey area project. But time will tell.

ensignavenger 9y ago

They now charge a massive 16.5% fee.

leopld 9y ago

I used to be quite excited about Flattr. The ideology they stand for is what makes them exciting, so I don't want to judge them by their brand, but still I can't help but feel that their communication and product design is honestly terrible. They communicated almost nothing for around 3 years, and now they're back to relaunch. I just don't feel very confident about their organization.

bonqis 9y ago
:( yeah, things took way longer than we wanted. It always does.

falcolas 9y ago

Any word on their content limitations? With the recent kerfluffel between Patreon and adult content creators, is this an alternative? I'm going to guess not, given the association with Visa and MC only. ... Had to dig - nope: > Pornographic or highly suggestive content or images that violate the applicable laws. Their "Types of websites not permitted" list is fairly long: https://flattr.com/files/terms.pdf https://flattr.com/files/terms.pdf

bonqis 9y ago
Yes, this is correct. In general payment providers has these set of rules/policies, that because the large institutions like Visa, Mastercard and banks does not accept these areas of payments.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

VickBear 9y ago

What is it with so many new sites and companies give such a vague description of what they do. I am literally clueless.

ttoinou 9y ago

So, does monthly payment works now ? I tried flattr years ago and it didn't even do it, that's a pretty obvious feature...

bonqis 9y ago
Yes, now it's a subscription service.

jasode 9y ago

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I thought using Flattr is not as easy on mobile phones. It requires using a separate browser app. (E.g. the Adblock browser app for Android). Since ~99% of smartphone users won't using anything but the default iPhone Safari or Android Chrome browser, this leaves out most audiences[1] that Flattr can't reach. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=majority+browse+web+with+mobile+phones https://www.google.com/search?q=majority+browse+web+with+mob...

BLanen 9y ago

Patreon with less features but a browser extension?

bonqis 9y ago
Nope, Patreon focuses on person and fame, and is one to one payments. We focus on content and divides your money to any number of creators.

discordianfish 9y ago

Couldn't you just use cookies to track which creator a user visits and how often? I doubt many people are willing to install a extension for that.

bonqis 9y ago
Nope, not possible on any content site (eg youtube) and it also needs the site to add it. Neither would it give us enough data to create what we have done. The algorithm in the extension is smarter about what it flattrs than a cookie could ever be. And more privacy friendly too.

gressquel 9y ago

install a software? i think im passing on this one. too much spyware floating around these days

bonqis 9y ago
There is nothing like that in our extension, feel free to check the code =)
- vog 9y ago
  Not now, but what about the 10th update? In general, I don't think it works that way. If you want people to install your code in a privileged position (such as a browser extension), you need to appear trustworthy. You essentially ask your users for a credit of trust. And yes, being able to say "just read the code" is absolutely necessary, but it is not sufficient. You usually get trust by having a great track record in the past, or by cooperating with others who do have such a track record.

visarga 9y ago

I looked for 2 minutes trying to find out what "Flattr" is.

j05huaNathaniel 9y ago

I just don't see this being worthwhile.

johndoe489 9y ago

I'd rather make few, but meaningful contributions to creators with a system like Patreon or Kickstarter, than make many "micro", meaningless payments without a clue where my money is going. This is failed from the get go. The whole idea that the program is going to determine where your attention goes, and how that relates to your contributions. Maybe I read a blog I contribute to, and it takes a lot of time, yet I download music from an artist I want to contribute even more to, but I spend 5 mins on his site to download the music. For small creators I think this is dumb and almost deceitful. You're not going to make anything from hundreds of micro payments. You aren't an (fairly popular) artist on Spotify earning revenue from millions of streamings. I have a small site on Patreon that people find useful and earn a little over a hundred USD a month atm, from less than 30 patrons. I don't even have any "perks" atm. I can't imagine earning even 10 $ from something like Flattr, much less Google Ads (but I digress ;)). Point being for small creators the connection to the audience, and how meaningful their contribution is I think is key. Making micro payments in a way that's invisible to me as a contributor, that's meaningless and I feel no connection to the creator.

BlueTemplar 9y ago
What would you rather have : ads or Flattr 2.0 micropayments? This is what it is about. (Yes, I know, you can block ads, but adblockers, Patreon, and subscription efforts combined don't seem like they have put a significant dent in advertising revenues...)

bonqis 9y ago

Hi, I'm Linus co-founder of Flattr. Will try and answer any questions you might have!

jack_quack 9y ago

Which will win 1. Flattr 2. Basic Attention Token 3. Cryptocurrency browser mining?

bonqis 9y ago
4. North Korea

kybernetikos 9y ago

Personally I like platforms like https://liberapay.com https://liberapay.com and https://gratipay.com https://gratipay.com which fund themselves via themselves. I certainly think that 7.5% is too high for the kind of service that Flattr provides.

bauerd 9y ago

I remember Flattr from a long time ago, when some German podcasters made a push for it. Thought it was a great idea at that time. If I remember correctly, it was a small square button with the number of tippers below it and upon click one's monthly spending balance would in part go to the creator. A few months ago I stumbled upon Flattr again (thought it was dead till that day). Couldn't log in with my old credentials, couldn't sign up for new ones, but was told that I can put myself on the waiting list for "Flattr 2". Now that this Flattr 2 thing has launched I can't help but ask myself how badly you can fuck up a product that once had an enthusiastic user base. Not only that they told existing users to sign up for their product again, the product now is much more cumbersome (browser extension required) and costly because of the fees. I strongly believe that there's a need for social micropayments done right, but I don't see myself ever making a deposit to Flattr. Someone should simply clone Flattr 1 and keep the fees as low as possible. It was a good and much needed product.

BlueTemplar 9y ago
The Twitter ban has killed Flattr 1.0 : https://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/04/16/flattr-twitter-payments-ban/ https://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/04/16/flattr-twitter-pay... I don't understand how you can say that the product is more cumbersome. Another reason that Flattr 1.0 failed is because it was too cumbersome both for tippers (that had to click yet another "Like"-like button) and for website developers (that had to implement the "Flattr" buttons). And Flattr 1.0 already had fees, 11% IIRC. And then Patreon swooped in with their much simpler model (X$/month to a specific creator) and ate Flattr's lunch. Now with Flattr 2.0 you just have a browser extension you have to install, and it's automatic after that! How much easier can it get!?