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A less mentioned reason for pollution curb is that China wants to attract their top talents back home, as well as global up-and-comers who wish for more accomm

A less mentioned reason for pollution curb is that China wants to attract their top talents back home, as well as global up-and-comers who wish for more accommodative research funding. Most top Chinese students who studied abroad are currently residing in the US, working in major tech companies and academia. They created the Thousand Talents program for promising and distinguished researchers, Chinese or otherwise, to work and stay in the country with salary comparable to the West, in nominal terms, and many extra privileges. [1] Pollution is a major concern among those who are interested and this gives additional urgency to the government. Basically, they understand very well that top talents are essential for developing advanced technologies they need, and they are pushing very hard to develop native talents and attract promising ones from other countries. This is the Singapore playbook that has propelled their two universities into major institutions in engineering and other fields within a few decades. (Engineering programs in both Singaporean universities are now ranked in the top 10 or 20 in the world. Also, both Tsinghua and Beijing are ranked in the world's top 10 in AI publications recently, but they plan for more universities to move up in more fields.) [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thousand_Talents_Program_(China) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thousand_Talents_Program_(Ch...

bustrakcan 9y ago
> Basically, they understand very well that top talents are essential for developing advanced technology they need Because companies around the world are now aware of the fact that Chinese government steals technologies. Also, Chinese government is too late trying to get talents back. Most of the laowais (expats) that were in Guangzhou, that were in technology, have left in recent years. The only foreigners left are africans trying to eek out a living and English teachers who can't make it anywhere else. You can imagine the reasons why: poisonous air that will give you cancer, poisonous food that will give you cancer, dirty water that will give you cancer, horrendous traffic (and everyone driving around honking and disregarding rules), bad mannered locals (imagine jackhammering at 4am, spitting, elbowing, cutting in lines), censorship, foreigners getting arrested without a reason, expensive rent (compared to quality), no way to be connected to the western internet without VPN (and recently, VPN have been failing as well), no way to talk to families overseas. And this is in the top province in China. Imagine tier 88 or even tier 2 cities. (shudder) There's no reason to be in China other than to make money, then get the hell out. And that seems to be even harder now with the economy stagnating and everyone blowing bubbles into the real estate. Thank god I got out of China. Many already have.
- AznHisoka 9y ago
  What if you don't know any English? Should you stay put in China or move to America if you have the chance?
  - vtange 9y ago
    I know many Chinese that manage to live in America with minimal knowledge of English. There are many sizeable Chinatowns and "bubble" communities in America where a Chinese/Taiwanese person could immerse himself/herself in and never really have to deal with English.
    - namelost 9y ago
      How do these people get visas?
      - AznHisoka 9y ago
        they have relatives in the usa.
        tim333 9y ago
        Or EB5. If you have $500k you can buy in. Apparently about 99% of the 10k issued each year go to Chinese.
  - rb2018 9y ago
    Or move to Taiwan if you have the chance.
    - hellofunk 9y ago
      Taiwan is lovely but still suffers from air pollution. Much of it is local pollution, but some also that drifts over from China. I found it quite challenging when I was there. But the food is great, so there's that.
TomK32 9y ago
> Also, both Tsinghua and Beijing are ranked in the world's top 10 in AI publications recently, but they plan for more universities to move up in more fields Sure they moved up in number of publications, but as with so many things in China, what's with the quality of this research? Only a few days ago we had a post here on fraud in China scientific work: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15473719 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15473719
- whooshee 9y ago
  Are you in academics? If you see some Chinese is cheating on his paper. You cannot effectively prove that the whole academic people are cheating. Given the basic ratio out there. Top-schools rarely cheat(https://www.natureindex.com/annual-tables/2017/institution/all/all https://www.natureindex.com/annual-tables/2017/institution/a...), Tsinghua is top tier. And its graduates are welcomed by top tier schools in Europe/US or tech companies. As for cheating, there are metric-system problems in China. For instance, to be a physician in China, you will be buried in day-to-day operations, however, if you want to climb up, you will need to have essays. I am not saying those cheaters are right, they are definitely wrong, but the system need to reconfigure itself as well.
hellofunk 9y ago
> This is the Singapore playbook Interesting. When I toured several companies in Singapore, including Google, most of the staff were from Europe or the States. If Singaporeans are indeed doing well in their own schools, my guess is many are still leaving to work elsewhere. I frequently attended programming meetups where about 90% of the attendees were non-Singaporean. But then, most of the Singaporeans I've known were quite happy to live and work in a Western country; I lived there briefly and was frequently asked by locals, "why would you want to live here, it's so small." Regarding pollution, it was actually Singapore's air pollution that caused me to leave. I think I'm not alone with that sentiment.
- gotrecruit 9y ago
  As a Singaporean born and raised there and then left, you are spot on. Most Singaporeans, esp talented tech workers, do not wish to stay there. It's a gilded birdcage - if your moral values and behavior align with the government's, Singapore is a very clean, safe and prosperous environment for you. If you even have the notion to disagree with the government on anything, go somewhere else. Because of such authoritarian attitudes in society, Singaporeans are raised to be subservient and fearful of authority (whether they know it or not). This means no creativity - the prevailing mentality in Singapore is "don't try to be clever - do what the authorities say and you won't go wrong", sort of like the local version of nobody gets fired for buying IBM. this is the reason why there is no innovation coming out of singapore despite the govt trying to offer all sorts of grants and schemes to "support local entrepreneurs" - because singaporeans have been psychologically beaten to subservience and are crippled when it comes to thinking out of the box because they have been conditioned by society to believe when you fail, you will be ridiculed and mocked and maybe even punished.
  - hellofunk 9y ago
    You are completely correct. This is exactly what I've noticed among people when I lived there. A lot of it is subconscious. Singapore really has this strange and pessimistic psychological effect on its citizens.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
wallace_f 9y ago
This is a good example of why public policy should, in principle, just do the right thing for the people merely for the sake of doing the right thing--most of the time it works out in your group's self interest. Sometimes in public policy it seems like we forget that we evolved to care about right and wrong for our own survival. And yes, there are contentious topics which reasonable people can disagree on, but many are essentially the people vs special interest groups (pollution, healthcare, military expansion, etc)
burntrelish1273 9y ago
It's shrewd. Can't always rope-in top talent by force, so commercial and residential centers must be organized/redeveloped to be more attractive than competing global options. PS: If it were SimCity, tear up roads, bulldoze industrial areas and build some parks. Sadly, PRC often does exactly that. :'( It was insane to see this empty new highway in Shanghai c. 2002 that had hedges, trees and flowers all the way down its length to the horizon. Oh, and a shiny, brand-new airport.
ericd 9y ago
I don't think those extra privileges would be a very strong enticement - it would be too clear how fragile my freedoms are when no one else is experiencing them, and from what I've seen, academics tend to prize freedom. That said, I'm sure the draw of the idea of living in their native culture is strong.

bustrakcan 9y ago

> Basically, they understand very well that top talents are essential for developing advanced technology they need Because companies around the world are now aware of the fact that Chinese government steals technologies. Also, Chinese government is too late trying to get talents back. Most of the laowais (expats) that were in Guangzhou, that were in technology, have left in recent years. The only foreigners left are africans trying to eek out a living and English teachers who can't make it anywhere else. You can imagine the reasons why: poisonous air that will give you cancer, poisonous food that will give you cancer, dirty water that will give you cancer, horrendous traffic (and everyone driving around honking and disregarding rules), bad mannered locals (imagine jackhammering at 4am, spitting, elbowing, cutting in lines), censorship, foreigners getting arrested without a reason, expensive rent (compared to quality), no way to be connected to the western internet without VPN (and recently, VPN have been failing as well), no way to talk to families overseas. And this is in the top province in China. Imagine tier 88 or even tier 2 cities. (shudder) There's no reason to be in China other than to make money, then get the hell out. And that seems to be even harder now with the economy stagnating and everyone blowing bubbles into the real estate. Thank god I got out of China. Many already have.

AznHisoka 9y ago
What if you don't know any English? Should you stay put in China or move to America if you have the chance?
- vtange 9y ago
  I know many Chinese that manage to live in America with minimal knowledge of English. There are many sizeable Chinatowns and "bubble" communities in America where a Chinese/Taiwanese person could immerse himself/herself in and never really have to deal with English.
  - namelost 9y ago
    How do these people get visas?
    - AznHisoka 9y ago
      they have relatives in the usa.
      - tim333 9y ago
        Or EB5. If you have $500k you can buy in. Apparently about 99% of the 10k issued each year go to Chinese.
- rb2018 9y ago
  Or move to Taiwan if you have the chance.
  - hellofunk 9y ago
    Taiwan is lovely but still suffers from air pollution. Much of it is local pollution, but some also that drifts over from China. I found it quite challenging when I was there. But the food is great, so there's that.

TomK32 9y ago

> Also, both Tsinghua and Beijing are ranked in the world's top 10 in AI publications recently, but they plan for more universities to move up in more fields Sure they moved up in number of publications, but as with so many things in China, what's with the quality of this research? Only a few days ago we had a post here on fraud in China scientific work: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15473719 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15473719

whooshee 9y ago
Are you in academics? If you see some Chinese is cheating on his paper. You cannot effectively prove that the whole academic people are cheating. Given the basic ratio out there. Top-schools rarely cheat(https://www.natureindex.com/annual-tables/2017/institution/all/all https://www.natureindex.com/annual-tables/2017/institution/a...), Tsinghua is top tier. And its graduates are welcomed by top tier schools in Europe/US or tech companies. As for cheating, there are metric-system problems in China. For instance, to be a physician in China, you will be buried in day-to-day operations, however, if you want to climb up, you will need to have essays. I am not saying those cheaters are right, they are definitely wrong, but the system need to reconfigure itself as well.

hellofunk 9y ago

> This is the Singapore playbook Interesting. When I toured several companies in Singapore, including Google, most of the staff were from Europe or the States. If Singaporeans are indeed doing well in their own schools, my guess is many are still leaving to work elsewhere. I frequently attended programming meetups where about 90% of the attendees were non-Singaporean. But then, most of the Singaporeans I've known were quite happy to live and work in a Western country; I lived there briefly and was frequently asked by locals, "why would you want to live here, it's so small." Regarding pollution, it was actually Singapore's air pollution that caused me to leave. I think I'm not alone with that sentiment.

gotrecruit 9y ago
As a Singaporean born and raised there and then left, you are spot on. Most Singaporeans, esp talented tech workers, do not wish to stay there. It's a gilded birdcage - if your moral values and behavior align with the government's, Singapore is a very clean, safe and prosperous environment for you. If you even have the notion to disagree with the government on anything, go somewhere else. Because of such authoritarian attitudes in society, Singaporeans are raised to be subservient and fearful of authority (whether they know it or not). This means no creativity - the prevailing mentality in Singapore is "don't try to be clever - do what the authorities say and you won't go wrong", sort of like the local version of nobody gets fired for buying IBM. this is the reason why there is no innovation coming out of singapore despite the govt trying to offer all sorts of grants and schemes to "support local entrepreneurs" - because singaporeans have been psychologically beaten to subservience and are crippled when it comes to thinking out of the box because they have been conditioned by society to believe when you fail, you will be ridiculed and mocked and maybe even punished.
- hellofunk 9y ago
  You are completely correct. This is exactly what I've noticed among people when I lived there. A lot of it is subconscious. Singapore really has this strange and pessimistic psychological effect on its citizens.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

wallace_f 9y ago

This is a good example of why public policy should, in principle, just do the right thing for the people merely for the sake of doing the right thing--most of the time it works out in your group's self interest. Sometimes in public policy it seems like we forget that we evolved to care about right and wrong for our own survival. And yes, there are contentious topics which reasonable people can disagree on, but many are essentially the people vs special interest groups (pollution, healthcare, military expansion, etc)

burntrelish1273 9y ago

It's shrewd. Can't always rope-in top talent by force, so commercial and residential centers must be organized/redeveloped to be more attractive than competing global options. PS: If it were SimCity, tear up roads, bulldoze industrial areas and build some parks. Sadly, PRC often does exactly that. :'( It was insane to see this empty new highway in Shanghai c. 2002 that had hedges, trees and flowers all the way down its length to the horizon. Oh, and a shiny, brand-new airport.

ericd 9y ago

I don't think those extra privileges would be a very strong enticement - it would be too clear how fragile my freedoms are when no one else is experiencing them, and from what I've seen, academics tend to prize freedom. That said, I'm sure the draw of the idea of living in their native culture is strong.