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I wonder how concerned they are about leaking proprietary technology from Chinese employees. Apple constantly struggles with this since the employees are paid l

I wonder how concerned they are about leaking proprietary technology from Chinese employees. Apple constantly struggles with this since the employees are paid little, but the incentive to leak and "share" information is very lucrative.

jorblumesea 9y ago
Even if they were well compensated the Chinese govt is very good at convincing people to leak or share IP with promises of huge cash rewards or career opportunities within national companies. I'd imagine Musk would be wary of this and put the proper controls in place.
- rasz 9y ago
  Usually they dont even have to convince anyone, the only way to build a factory in China used to be a joint venture owned by Chinese partner. Here Tesla is willing to pay '25 percent tariffs' to avoid that, but I highly doubt it will do them any good when it comes to Cherry Model Q/Geely Electric showing up in 12-18 months build using parts interchangeable with Model 3.
  - mistermann 9y ago
    I imagine Elon knows this, maybe he thinks he can keep one step ahead for long enough to make it worthwhile.
  - nate_meurer 9y ago
    I honestly don't think it will matter. Brand vanity goes a long way in China, and I bet Tesla will reliably command a premium over chinese knockoffs. Plus, the EV market in China is going to be so enormous that Tesla can take just a small piece of it and still be outrageously successful.
    - nomercy400 9y ago
      It's more the risk of China producing a good EV themselves and selling that in the rest of the world.
  - lucaspiller 9y ago
    Have there been any instances of a Chinese firm copying anything as large as a car part-for-part? I understand they make cars that look like Western cars, but under the hood they are completely different. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if they came out with the Model S ‘Petrol Edition’.
    - skgoa 9y ago
      A lot of the parts in every car, produced anywhere in the world, are shared with other models from other manufacturers. That's perfectly normal. Like e.g. "german", "french" or "american" cars, many "chinese" cars are made up mostly of german, french etc. parts. Well, german-engineered, french-engineered etc., beccause the parts are often produced relatively closely to the manufacturer's assembly plant. (Which is why BMW and it's american suppliers are biggest exporter of the fruits of automotive labor in the US.) Chinese manufacturers are just more blatant in their copying of western designs. Western manufacturers tend to be way subtle about taking and reworking design cues. Though undeniably everyone will assimilate any popular design into their own design language.
    - castratikron 9y ago
      I knew an engineer who used to work for a US company that made nuclear reactors. He had said that they sold a single reactor to someone in China, and only one. Several years later they found that they had made many identical copies of that model reactor, down to the size of the bolts.
- ksk 9y ago
  >Even if they were well compensated the Chinese govt is very good at convincing people to leak or share IP with promises of huge cash rewards or career opportunities within national companies. https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you
thisisit 9y ago
This might not answer your point fully but in the article: > China had previously circulated a proposal that would allow electric-car makers into the country without local partners if they were to locate in the so-called free-trade zones. The government set up the country’s first such zone in Shanghai in 2013, and has since approved 10 more around the country. > Until now, foreign auto makers have built cars in China through joint ventures with local manufacturers. That allows them to avoid the 25% tariff on autos, but also forces them to split profits, and potentially share technology, with the local partner—something that has tripped up Tesla’s previous efforts to expand there. My reading of this is, Tesla is okay with the tariff sanctions but doesn't want to share tech or profits with local partners. While that doesn't completely remove the potential IP problem, it does mitigate to a certain degree.
- pweissbrod 9y ago
  So by paying a 25% tariff, developing in china outside "free-trade" zones none of tesla technical manufacturing/design knowledge will be leaked to the government and knockoff competitors? Good luck w/that. One can only assume tesla expects some level of compromised proprietary secrets. Calculated risk on some level. Maye they see this as speeding up the inevitable. Apparently they figure this risk is outweighed by the benefit of employing a manufacturing powerhouse which surpasses their US productions.
npgatech 9y ago
Intel has a big assembly site there (Chengdu, China) but fabs are still in the US, Israel, Ireland. I wonder what Trump has to say about this move by Elon.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  I believe Intel tests in Chengdu, they don't need final assembly of CPUs. Intel also has an Asian fab in Singapore, I think.
  - Godel_unicode 9y ago
    They have a Fab (fab 68) in Dalian China for their 65nn process node on 300mm wafers, and an assembly/test site in Chengdu. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_manufacturing_sites https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_manufacturing_...
    - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
      Ah, ya, and Singapore was just flash (did they fab there before), and that is just Micron now to boot. At 65nm, they aren't fabbing CPU there, probably just supporting chips.
    - baybal2 9y ago
      It puzzles me why Intel Chinese fabs are located in such middle of nowhere where their logistics costs will be sky high
      - gruturo 9y ago
        As far as I know (which is admittedly very little), Intel's fabs require massive amounts of stable electricity and clean water. Maybe proximity to such resources is their driver in this case.
      - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
        Huh? Chengdu doesn't have a fab and is hardly in the middle of nowhere. Normal logistic costs. Dalian is in a highly industrialized liaoning province, again highly populated and lots of resources. Again, normal logistic costs. If they put it in the middle of gansu or qinghai or maybe Northern Yunnan or southern Sichuan (pretty much the Tibetan plateau), that would be the middle of nowhere.
userbinator 9y ago
On a more positive note, this is largely how the 3rd-party repair industry for Apple's and other's electronic products (laptops, TVs, etc.) is fed --- leaked schematics and other documentation is very useful not just for cloning but for repair.
rdl 9y ago
I thought Tesla (unlike SpaceX, due to ITAR/etc.) was pretty open with their technology. I assume Elon would be happy if all of the non-EVs in China copied Tesla. OTOH, I think the Chinese market actually already has better EVs for 90% of the Chinese market, and the market for Tesla is the high-end prestige market which wouldn't be so affected by copying (they don't copy BMWs today) https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you
- rasz 9y ago
  Cheaper for sure, but there is always a price (burning alive in case of BYD e6 ).
  - icebraining 9y ago
    Sounds like FUD. Is there anything more than the single case reported on Wikipedia?
- miketery 9y ago
  I believe this only applies to charging tech so that the whole industry is standardized for charging stations. I don't think Tesla shares any of their chemistry, power management, and other high value IP.
  - KGIII 9y ago
    As far as I know, it is all patents. Here is another source, as linked in my above post: https://www.wired.com/2014/06/tesla-just-gave-all-its-patents-away-to-competitors/ https://www.wired.com/2014/06/tesla-just-gave-all-its-patent...
    - thisisit 9y ago
      From the article: > Tesla CEO Elon Musk announced today that his company will not "initiate patent lawsuits against anyone who, in good faith, wants to use our technology." The question really is - what defines "good faith" for Musk and Tesla. Additionally, I am no patent expert but it will be interesting to see licensing terms, if any. Specially after what happened with React and Facebook.
xux 9y ago
If Tesla built a factory in a mainly minority neighborhood, would you find it appropriate to wonder out loud whether employees would steal the parts? If not, why do you believe your comment and the insinuation are appropriate? You may not have realized it, but the level of subtle racism is ridiculous. cc @dang, I've no idea how this works
- joshuamorton 9y ago
  I feel like the issue here is less race and more another country. In other words, replace the word "Chinese" in GP with "in China", as I assume GP intends, and I don't believe that racism is an issue.
- nodesocket 9y ago
  Wait... Back up. That was not my intention at all. The question was more about cultural differences and risks moving a core piece of a public company with lots of proprietary technology into a foreign country. I am actually a bit frustrated and confused why you think my comment would be deserving of a moderator.
- deleted 9y ago
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- deleted 9y ago
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- imron 9y ago
  If you'd even done a cursory study of foreign firms in China having their technology stolen, you'd realise it's a real problem that many foreign firms face and concerns about it aren't due to racism but an abundance of cases where it has happened.
jordache 9y ago
What technologies are there at the production phase? Powerful electric motors and big battery == fast and long distance. All software will be developed in-house and pre-loaded into dash modules.

jorblumesea 9y ago

Even if they were well compensated the Chinese govt is very good at convincing people to leak or share IP with promises of huge cash rewards or career opportunities within national companies. I'd imagine Musk would be wary of this and put the proper controls in place.

rasz 9y ago
Usually they dont even have to convince anyone, the only way to build a factory in China used to be a joint venture owned by Chinese partner. Here Tesla is willing to pay '25 percent tariffs' to avoid that, but I highly doubt it will do them any good when it comes to Cherry Model Q/Geely Electric showing up in 12-18 months build using parts interchangeable with Model 3.
- mistermann 9y ago
  I imagine Elon knows this, maybe he thinks he can keep one step ahead for long enough to make it worthwhile.
- nate_meurer 9y ago
  I honestly don't think it will matter. Brand vanity goes a long way in China, and I bet Tesla will reliably command a premium over chinese knockoffs. Plus, the EV market in China is going to be so enormous that Tesla can take just a small piece of it and still be outrageously successful.
  - nomercy400 9y ago
    It's more the risk of China producing a good EV themselves and selling that in the rest of the world.
- lucaspiller 9y ago
  Have there been any instances of a Chinese firm copying anything as large as a car part-for-part? I understand they make cars that look like Western cars, but under the hood they are completely different. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if they came out with the Model S ‘Petrol Edition’.
  - skgoa 9y ago
    A lot of the parts in every car, produced anywhere in the world, are shared with other models from other manufacturers. That's perfectly normal. Like e.g. "german", "french" or "american" cars, many "chinese" cars are made up mostly of german, french etc. parts. Well, german-engineered, french-engineered etc., beccause the parts are often produced relatively closely to the manufacturer's assembly plant. (Which is why BMW and it's american suppliers are biggest exporter of the fruits of automotive labor in the US.) Chinese manufacturers are just more blatant in their copying of western designs. Western manufacturers tend to be way subtle about taking and reworking design cues. Though undeniably everyone will assimilate any popular design into their own design language.
  - castratikron 9y ago
    I knew an engineer who used to work for a US company that made nuclear reactors. He had said that they sold a single reactor to someone in China, and only one. Several years later they found that they had made many identical copies of that model reactor, down to the size of the bolts.
ksk 9y ago
>Even if they were well compensated the Chinese govt is very good at convincing people to leak or share IP with promises of huge cash rewards or career opportunities within national companies. https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you

thisisit 9y ago

This might not answer your point fully but in the article: > China had previously circulated a proposal that would allow electric-car makers into the country without local partners if they were to locate in the so-called free-trade zones. The government set up the country’s first such zone in Shanghai in 2013, and has since approved 10 more around the country. > Until now, foreign auto makers have built cars in China through joint ventures with local manufacturers. That allows them to avoid the 25% tariff on autos, but also forces them to split profits, and potentially share technology, with the local partner—something that has tripped up Tesla’s previous efforts to expand there. My reading of this is, Tesla is okay with the tariff sanctions but doesn't want to share tech or profits with local partners. While that doesn't completely remove the potential IP problem, it does mitigate to a certain degree.

pweissbrod 9y ago
So by paying a 25% tariff, developing in china outside "free-trade" zones none of tesla technical manufacturing/design knowledge will be leaked to the government and knockoff competitors? Good luck w/that. One can only assume tesla expects some level of compromised proprietary secrets. Calculated risk on some level. Maye they see this as speeding up the inevitable. Apparently they figure this risk is outweighed by the benefit of employing a manufacturing powerhouse which surpasses their US productions.

npgatech 9y ago

Intel has a big assembly site there (Chengdu, China) but fabs are still in the US, Israel, Ireland. I wonder what Trump has to say about this move by Elon.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago
I believe Intel tests in Chengdu, they don't need final assembly of CPUs. Intel also has an Asian fab in Singapore, I think.
- Godel_unicode 9y ago
  They have a Fab (fab 68) in Dalian China for their 65nn process node on 300mm wafers, and an assembly/test site in Chengdu. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_manufacturing_sites https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_manufacturing_...
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    Ah, ya, and Singapore was just flash (did they fab there before), and that is just Micron now to boot. At 65nm, they aren't fabbing CPU there, probably just supporting chips.
  - baybal2 9y ago
    It puzzles me why Intel Chinese fabs are located in such middle of nowhere where their logistics costs will be sky high
    - gruturo 9y ago
      As far as I know (which is admittedly very little), Intel's fabs require massive amounts of stable electricity and clean water. Maybe proximity to such resources is their driver in this case.
    - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
      Huh? Chengdu doesn't have a fab and is hardly in the middle of nowhere. Normal logistic costs. Dalian is in a highly industrialized liaoning province, again highly populated and lots of resources. Again, normal logistic costs. If they put it in the middle of gansu or qinghai or maybe Northern Yunnan or southern Sichuan (pretty much the Tibetan plateau), that would be the middle of nowhere.

userbinator 9y ago

On a more positive note, this is largely how the 3rd-party repair industry for Apple's and other's electronic products (laptops, TVs, etc.) is fed --- leaked schematics and other documentation is very useful not just for cloning but for repair.

rdl 9y ago

I thought Tesla (unlike SpaceX, due to ITAR/etc.) was pretty open with their technology. I assume Elon would be happy if all of the non-EVs in China copied Tesla. OTOH, I think the Chinese market actually already has better EVs for 90% of the Chinese market, and the market for Tesla is the high-end prestige market which wouldn't be so affected by copying (they don't copy BMWs today) https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you

rasz 9y ago
Cheaper for sure, but there is always a price (burning alive in case of BYD e6 ).
- icebraining 9y ago
  Sounds like FUD. Is there anything more than the single case reported on Wikipedia?
miketery 9y ago
I believe this only applies to charging tech so that the whole industry is standardized for charging stations. I don't think Tesla shares any of their chemistry, power management, and other high value IP.
- KGIII 9y ago
  As far as I know, it is all patents. Here is another source, as linked in my above post: https://www.wired.com/2014/06/tesla-just-gave-all-its-patents-away-to-competitors/ https://www.wired.com/2014/06/tesla-just-gave-all-its-patent...
  - thisisit 9y ago
    From the article: > Tesla CEO Elon Musk announced today that his company will not "initiate patent lawsuits against anyone who, in good faith, wants to use our technology." The question really is - what defines "good faith" for Musk and Tesla. Additionally, I am no patent expert but it will be interesting to see licensing terms, if any. Specially after what happened with React and Facebook.

xux 9y ago

If Tesla built a factory in a mainly minority neighborhood, would you find it appropriate to wonder out loud whether employees would steal the parts? If not, why do you believe your comment and the insinuation are appropriate? You may not have realized it, but the level of subtle racism is ridiculous. cc @dang, I've no idea how this works

joshuamorton 9y ago
I feel like the issue here is less race and more another country. In other words, replace the word "Chinese" in GP with "in China", as I assume GP intends, and I don't believe that racism is an issue.
nodesocket 9y ago
Wait... Back up. That was not my intention at all. The question was more about cultural differences and risks moving a core piece of a public company with lots of proprietary technology into a foreign country. I am actually a bit frustrated and confused why you think my comment would be deserving of a moderator.
deleted 9y ago
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deleted 9y ago
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imron 9y ago
If you'd even done a cursory study of foreign firms in China having their technology stolen, you'd realise it's a real problem that many foreign firms face and concerns about it aren't due to racism but an abundance of cases where it has happened.

jordache 9y ago

What technologies are there at the production phase? Powerful electric motors and big battery == fast and long distance. All software will be developed in-house and pre-loaded into dash modules.