5 ms·

I see all these articles about the average employee age at startups being 20-30, and how older developers face discrimination. Now this is 100% anecdotal, but

I see all these articles about the average employee age at startups being 20-30, and how older developers face discrimination. Now this is 100% anecdotal, but I know a few 45+ year old developers and most of them are long-time corporate employees and are not really interested in the whole startup / bloggosphere / tech hype world. They have good stable jobs (think Perl, .NET, Java), and are mainly focused on their families and other hobbies. It’s well know that people tend to become more conservative with age, so this doesn’t really suprise me. None of them thought they were being discriminated against at all. Moreover, my colleague worked with a 58 year old guy who started programming when he was 50+. He currently works for a super hot "big data" startup as a lead Ruby on Rails engineer, and from what I've heard, he's really, really good at his job (and very well paid). Older developers of HN, what are your experiences? Everyone else, did you ever witness a case where someone was discriminated based on their age?

humanrebar 9y ago
I've seen people looking to switch from "good stable jobs" not given consideration while someone straight from college would be interviewed. Seems to me that an experienced perl programmer would compare well to someone with some academic experience and light project work. I honestly don't understand why the perl programmers aren't offered at least entry level wages with opportunities for advancement and raises if things go well. Instead, I typically see them passed over and lots of focus on recruiting university students away from other employers.
DrNuke 9y ago
>Older developers of HN, what are your experiences? Over 40 here. The most difficult part is human interaction. Youngsters are obviously well behind their own hype and have their right to try. Mature folks like me take things with a grain of salt and acknowledge hard work is only a part of the picture, often not the most important. From a technical point of view, the headless chickens thing is also common but, again, youngsters have their right to believe they are Einstein, Feynman or Jobs.
- Clubber 9y ago
  >youngsters have their right to believe they are Einstein, Feynman or Jobs. God knows, I certainly did.
- greggarious 9y ago
  >youngsters have their right to believe they are Einstein, Feynman or Jobs. or all three at once
- rpmcmurphy 9y ago
  The thing about being 40+ is you really start to see through bullshit. I remember working for one company that was selling a product customers simply did not want. I tried explaining this to the founders, and suggested alternatives, but got branded "not a team player" for not drinking the Kool-Aid. So it is important to work for companies that are actually doing something useful, otherwise you are going to have a hard time concealing your skepticism.
seanmcdirmid 9y ago
Selection bias. The older tech workers that have survived the industry have done so in "safer" corporate environments. If startups have bias against older employees, they simply couldn't survive the industry there in general barring a few exceptions. It isn't well known that people become more conservative as they age actually, younger people tend to be more liberal, they aren't changing their ideologies much as they grow. Again, this is just another instance of selection bias. Of course, when you have a family to support, you can't take as many risks with your career as you can when it's just you Finally, younger employees are all about potential, you imagine what they could be, while older employees are all about experience (WYSIWYG). We are more generous with aspirations than reality when making hiring decisions.
- walshemj 9y ago
  that statement "they simply couldn't survive the industry" is screamingly ageist do you hold similar views against females and BME candidates.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    I'm older actually, and I'm already seeing friends drop out. The career paths in our industry are shaped like a pyramids after all. This applies to all tech workers regardless of gender, ethnicity, or whatever.
    - kenshi 9y ago
      Where do your friends end up going?
      - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
        Places that are less competitive where you don't have move up or move out. Others are quite successful and have their pick. It's all around the spectrum I guess.
intellectronica 9y ago
I'm a 40+ engineer working in startups and I can't complain - my work life is good. I did, however, encounter age discrimination (where I wasn't the victim, just a bystander) a few times during my career. This is only anecdotal evidence, but this usually correlated with places where the management was not very mature and professional and there were other problems. I am a bit worried about the future, but I also have some confidence that as long as I keep my skills up-to-date and demonstrate my passion and commitment to the work I do there will always be work for me. Tech companies are so starved for good talent that if you have what to offer there will always be someone interested in hiring you. Ageism exists, and it is ugly (just like the other isms), but it's decreasing with time and will probably not be a problem in the coming decades.
- mixmastamyk 9y ago
  > but it's decreasing with time and will probably not What’s your source for this assertion?
  - intellectronica 9y ago
    Completely anecdotal. I've been working in the industry for over 20 years and it seems to be less prevalent.
kitd 9y ago
I'm over 50 and coding in Node & Java, + related modern technologies. I am very happy where I am, reasonably well paid, and wouldn't want to move. If circumstances change however, and I am forced to move for some reason, I would worry about landing something equivalent. I have already seen reluctance from recruiters about placing me. I think I would probably move into contracting. I feel it's a more honest way of earning a living in the software dev world atm.
tyingq 9y ago
>Older developers of HN, what are your experiences? Yes, it happens quite frequently. The most common code word is "overqualified". Often used even when it's clear that the candidate and the hiring manager are in the same ballpark on expected salary.
psyc 9y ago
I can't be sure yet, but I'm starting to be concerned. I turned 40 recently. My current job search has lasted about 5x longer than any previous job search. I've been turned down for nonsensical reasons, such as not having enough experience in a specific language that I have a lot of experience in. (That was an assertion by the interviewer, not the result of technical questioning.) I've been interviewed several times by managers and directors 10 years younger than myself. I've noticed a distinct pattern where they'll ask very basic questions, I'll give a detailed answer than I know to be correct and insightful, and they'll say it's wrong - and I'm just dumbfounded, like what can I say? I'm not going to argue with them.
- dominotw 9y ago
  I was recently rejected by a big tech company for not knowing Java 8. I code in scala in my day job and haven't kept up with changes in java. My coding exercise language options were nodejs,java, python, I submitted solution java 7. Interviewer said to my face( well..on the phone) that they won't be "moving forward" because I don't keep up with changes in technology and they are a 'fast moving' tech environment.
  - RhodesianHunter 9y ago
    Sounds like you dodged a bullet.
    - sidlls 9y ago
      There are a lot of those kinds of bullets to dodge. That's kind of the point behind the concern over age discrimination. These "bullets" are more or less cover for age discrimination.
  - dudul 9y ago
    That almost reads like a joke. The guy using Scala is criticized by Java evangelists (no other word when you reject somebody because they don't know one specific language) for not keeping up with changing technologies. Hope you found another position and can look at this experience thinking that you're better off not working there.
FigBug 9y ago
> Older developers of HN, what are your experiences? I turned 40 this year, I haven't noticed any differences. I've been contracting since 2010 and I never meet most of my clients, I guess they could guess my age from the length of my experience. I specialize in Pro Audio / DSP which seems to be an older field, maybe because it's slower changing and experience is more important. I think racial / gender discrimination is a bigger issue than age.
barkingtoad 9y ago
Linux Engineer, 53. When my cow-orker lent me the book version of "No Country For Old Men" saying "Here, this is going around", I figured I might be in trouble. I was laid off in the middle of the bad times, could not find anything for years, and have been rebooting my career since then. In my last interview, the recruiter said I was ruled out because I was "weak on nginx". The interviewer didn't ask about nginx, but you know, whatever.
bwoj 9y ago
A few years ago, I was tech lead on a team doing the software for IPTV settop boxes. We were trying to grow the team out and not getting many good candidates for the position. At one point the best candidate we had was a 60+ year old engineer with a background in compiler development. The skills he demonstrated on whiteboard coding and answering technical questions were not great but acceptable and we figured he should be able to transfer his knowledge to a new line of work. When he started working he struggled to adapt. He had some health problems that included an organ transplant. After a few months in the role, the stress began to cause his body to reject the transplant. It's clearl that hiring an older worker can have problems you won't likely see an a 20 year old. If I had to do it again, I would still give this candidate the chance. Every time.
bitsnbytes 9y ago
"Older developers of HN, what are your experiences?" I'm 43. When I was younger and first started out 20+ years ago I put in easily 50-60+ hour work weeks ,but only billed the client for 40. I was young , hungry to learn, and loved the feeling I got when I accomplished a project or tackled something new and complicated. It was self rewarding. It was not a job or even a career , it was a feeling that wow somebody is actually paying me to do something I fully enjoy. At 43 the only thing that has Changed is my ability to put in that extra time. I was married young and in college as well, but with no Child. At 35 we had our first child and my father had a stroke not too far after that. My responsibilities at home raising my Son and taking care of my older parents has consumed most of my free time. While it has not impacted my area of expertise, It has impacted my ability to stay up to date with all the latest and greatest technologies. Even when I was younger I always had a "learn as a needed" mentality and was able to quickly adapt. That hasn't changed nor my desire to learn new things. However, what has changed is that I have become selective on which technology "I need to learn". I also can't afford the risk to take a pay cut to jump on a new cool technology when I'm making good money , in my current industry. Having said that now I fantasize about retirement , but not to retire. I fantasize about that extra time and financial freedom to work and learn on the FUN projects I want. I have always wanted to get into the robotics industry to improve the quality of life for elderly people and children. I love the software and hardware intermingling and actually seeing the physical result, versus just software virtual results on the screen. Its something I fantasize enough about , that now I'm looking to purchase a new home with the space to build my lab (mwahahaha). In regards to ageism, Yes , I have seen it and would say its far more prevalent then the other 'ism' in the tech world. Luckily for me I don't really look like my age and can still pass for my 30's and have worked with the same clients for 20+ years, even after switching companies. However on paper its another thing, and something I definitely worry about if I have to change jobs or clients.
- pdimitar 9y ago
  Don't make my eyes wet, man. I am 37, no kids (happily! I don't want them!), burned out, tired, with several health problems due to continued neglect, in a relationship with the most awesome and beautiful woman in the world, and as much as I love programming, my soul SCREAMS for a break. As it is though, I've been extremely stupid and short-sighted most of my life and career and now that I make more money, I am compensating for a lot of mistakes in the past -- f.ex. I already must have spend at least 2500 euro on a dentist. Other medical bills will be rolling in shortly. Also upgrading tech, saving for good washing machine / refrigerator / oven. Started buying new clothes and shoes. Etc, etc. to infinity. Maybe in a few years I'll actually have savings and will be able to take 1-2 years of break but I quite frankly doubt it. This "mini retirement" is a beautiful dream but our system is constructed so as to keep you busy 100% of the time and doesn't care about your human needs. Still, not only the system is at fault -- we as people have to be smarter about our future, which I wasn't. Lastly, my woman can't support both of us -- for now, even though she really wants to. Maybe that will happen one day, who knows. For now though, most of the burden is on me and it's heavy.
matwood 9y ago
I'm 40 and have never witnessed age discrimination[1]. I know multiple people 40+ and 50+ who work in tech and they don't seem to have any problems finding jobs (or being poached) or finding contracts. Admittedly, the people I know have all been ICs, managers, CTOs and back during their careers. I do not personally know anyone who has just been an IC their entire career. I'm sure age discrimination happens, but I wonder if this (like many things in tech) is common the SV bubble and way less common everywhere else. As someone else mentioned below, I think what age discrimination is out there is going to go away as the first big programming generation gets older. First, many ICs in general will be older. Second, and probably more important, is the whole generation who is getting older now is used to the skills treadmill. [1] I wonder if age discrimination is the wrong word here. I'm going to guess it's more of family obligation discrimination. A 40 something with no kids or family is not going to be that different from a 20 something without any obligations. Age has just become an easy proxy here because many people now wait until their 30s to have kids.

humanrebar 9y ago

I've seen people looking to switch from "good stable jobs" not given consideration while someone straight from college would be interviewed. Seems to me that an experienced perl programmer would compare well to someone with some academic experience and light project work. I honestly don't understand why the perl programmers aren't offered at least entry level wages with opportunities for advancement and raises if things go well. Instead, I typically see them passed over and lots of focus on recruiting university students away from other employers.

DrNuke 9y ago

>Older developers of HN, what are your experiences? Over 40 here. The most difficult part is human interaction. Youngsters are obviously well behind their own hype and have their right to try. Mature folks like me take things with a grain of salt and acknowledge hard work is only a part of the picture, often not the most important. From a technical point of view, the headless chickens thing is also common but, again, youngsters have their right to believe they are Einstein, Feynman or Jobs.

Clubber 9y ago
>youngsters have their right to believe they are Einstein, Feynman or Jobs. God knows, I certainly did.
greggarious 9y ago
>youngsters have their right to believe they are Einstein, Feynman or Jobs. or all three at once
rpmcmurphy 9y ago
The thing about being 40+ is you really start to see through bullshit. I remember working for one company that was selling a product customers simply did not want. I tried explaining this to the founders, and suggested alternatives, but got branded "not a team player" for not drinking the Kool-Aid. So it is important to work for companies that are actually doing something useful, otherwise you are going to have a hard time concealing your skepticism.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago

Selection bias. The older tech workers that have survived the industry have done so in "safer" corporate environments. If startups have bias against older employees, they simply couldn't survive the industry there in general barring a few exceptions. It isn't well known that people become more conservative as they age actually, younger people tend to be more liberal, they aren't changing their ideologies much as they grow. Again, this is just another instance of selection bias. Of course, when you have a family to support, you can't take as many risks with your career as you can when it's just you Finally, younger employees are all about potential, you imagine what they could be, while older employees are all about experience (WYSIWYG). We are more generous with aspirations than reality when making hiring decisions.

walshemj 9y ago
that statement "they simply couldn't survive the industry" is screamingly ageist do you hold similar views against females and BME candidates.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  I'm older actually, and I'm already seeing friends drop out. The career paths in our industry are shaped like a pyramids after all. This applies to all tech workers regardless of gender, ethnicity, or whatever.
  - kenshi 9y ago
    Where do your friends end up going?
    - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
      Places that are less competitive where you don't have move up or move out. Others are quite successful and have their pick. It's all around the spectrum I guess.

intellectronica 9y ago

I'm a 40+ engineer working in startups and I can't complain - my work life is good. I did, however, encounter age discrimination (where I wasn't the victim, just a bystander) a few times during my career. This is only anecdotal evidence, but this usually correlated with places where the management was not very mature and professional and there were other problems. I am a bit worried about the future, but I also have some confidence that as long as I keep my skills up-to-date and demonstrate my passion and commitment to the work I do there will always be work for me. Tech companies are so starved for good talent that if you have what to offer there will always be someone interested in hiring you. Ageism exists, and it is ugly (just like the other isms), but it's decreasing with time and will probably not be a problem in the coming decades.

mixmastamyk 9y ago
> but it's decreasing with time and will probably not What’s your source for this assertion?
- intellectronica 9y ago
  Completely anecdotal. I've been working in the industry for over 20 years and it seems to be less prevalent.

kitd 9y ago

I'm over 50 and coding in Node & Java, + related modern technologies. I am very happy where I am, reasonably well paid, and wouldn't want to move. If circumstances change however, and I am forced to move for some reason, I would worry about landing something equivalent. I have already seen reluctance from recruiters about placing me. I think I would probably move into contracting. I feel it's a more honest way of earning a living in the software dev world atm.

tyingq 9y ago

>Older developers of HN, what are your experiences? Yes, it happens quite frequently. The most common code word is "overqualified". Often used even when it's clear that the candidate and the hiring manager are in the same ballpark on expected salary.

psyc 9y ago

I can't be sure yet, but I'm starting to be concerned. I turned 40 recently. My current job search has lasted about 5x longer than any previous job search. I've been turned down for nonsensical reasons, such as not having enough experience in a specific language that I have a lot of experience in. (That was an assertion by the interviewer, not the result of technical questioning.) I've been interviewed several times by managers and directors 10 years younger than myself. I've noticed a distinct pattern where they'll ask very basic questions, I'll give a detailed answer than I know to be correct and insightful, and they'll say it's wrong - and I'm just dumbfounded, like what can I say? I'm not going to argue with them.

dominotw 9y ago
I was recently rejected by a big tech company for not knowing Java 8. I code in scala in my day job and haven't kept up with changes in java. My coding exercise language options were nodejs,java, python, I submitted solution java 7. Interviewer said to my face( well..on the phone) that they won't be "moving forward" because I don't keep up with changes in technology and they are a 'fast moving' tech environment.
- RhodesianHunter 9y ago
  Sounds like you dodged a bullet.
  - sidlls 9y ago
    There are a lot of those kinds of bullets to dodge. That's kind of the point behind the concern over age discrimination. These "bullets" are more or less cover for age discrimination.
- dudul 9y ago
  That almost reads like a joke. The guy using Scala is criticized by Java evangelists (no other word when you reject somebody because they don't know one specific language) for not keeping up with changing technologies. Hope you found another position and can look at this experience thinking that you're better off not working there.

FigBug 9y ago

> Older developers of HN, what are your experiences? I turned 40 this year, I haven't noticed any differences. I've been contracting since 2010 and I never meet most of my clients, I guess they could guess my age from the length of my experience. I specialize in Pro Audio / DSP which seems to be an older field, maybe because it's slower changing and experience is more important. I think racial / gender discrimination is a bigger issue than age.

barkingtoad 9y ago

Linux Engineer, 53. When my cow-orker lent me the book version of "No Country For Old Men" saying "Here, this is going around", I figured I might be in trouble. I was laid off in the middle of the bad times, could not find anything for years, and have been rebooting my career since then. In my last interview, the recruiter said I was ruled out because I was "weak on nginx". The interviewer didn't ask about nginx, but you know, whatever.

bwoj 9y ago

A few years ago, I was tech lead on a team doing the software for IPTV settop boxes. We were trying to grow the team out and not getting many good candidates for the position. At one point the best candidate we had was a 60+ year old engineer with a background in compiler development. The skills he demonstrated on whiteboard coding and answering technical questions were not great but acceptable and we figured he should be able to transfer his knowledge to a new line of work. When he started working he struggled to adapt. He had some health problems that included an organ transplant. After a few months in the role, the stress began to cause his body to reject the transplant. It's clearl that hiring an older worker can have problems you won't likely see an a 20 year old. If I had to do it again, I would still give this candidate the chance. Every time.

bitsnbytes 9y ago

"Older developers of HN, what are your experiences?" I'm 43. When I was younger and first started out 20+ years ago I put in easily 50-60+ hour work weeks ,but only billed the client for 40. I was young , hungry to learn, and loved the feeling I got when I accomplished a project or tackled something new and complicated. It was self rewarding. It was not a job or even a career , it was a feeling that wow somebody is actually paying me to do something I fully enjoy. At 43 the only thing that has Changed is my ability to put in that extra time. I was married young and in college as well, but with no Child. At 35 we had our first child and my father had a stroke not too far after that. My responsibilities at home raising my Son and taking care of my older parents has consumed most of my free time. While it has not impacted my area of expertise, It has impacted my ability to stay up to date with all the latest and greatest technologies. Even when I was younger I always had a "learn as a needed" mentality and was able to quickly adapt. That hasn't changed nor my desire to learn new things. However, what has changed is that I have become selective on which technology "I need to learn". I also can't afford the risk to take a pay cut to jump on a new cool technology when I'm making good money , in my current industry. Having said that now I fantasize about retirement , but not to retire. I fantasize about that extra time and financial freedom to work and learn on the FUN projects I want. I have always wanted to get into the robotics industry to improve the quality of life for elderly people and children. I love the software and hardware intermingling and actually seeing the physical result, versus just software virtual results on the screen. Its something I fantasize enough about , that now I'm looking to purchase a new home with the space to build my lab (mwahahaha). In regards to ageism, Yes , I have seen it and would say its far more prevalent then the other 'ism' in the tech world. Luckily for me I don't really look like my age and can still pass for my 30's and have worked with the same clients for 20+ years, even after switching companies. However on paper its another thing, and something I definitely worry about if I have to change jobs or clients.

pdimitar 9y ago
Don't make my eyes wet, man. I am 37, no kids (happily! I don't want them!), burned out, tired, with several health problems due to continued neglect, in a relationship with the most awesome and beautiful woman in the world, and as much as I love programming, my soul SCREAMS for a break. As it is though, I've been extremely stupid and short-sighted most of my life and career and now that I make more money, I am compensating for a lot of mistakes in the past -- f.ex. I already must have spend at least 2500 euro on a dentist. Other medical bills will be rolling in shortly. Also upgrading tech, saving for good washing machine / refrigerator / oven. Started buying new clothes and shoes. Etc, etc. to infinity. Maybe in a few years I'll actually have savings and will be able to take 1-2 years of break but I quite frankly doubt it. This "mini retirement" is a beautiful dream but our system is constructed so as to keep you busy 100% of the time and doesn't care about your human needs. Still, not only the system is at fault -- we as people have to be smarter about our future, which I wasn't. Lastly, my woman can't support both of us -- for now, even though she really wants to. Maybe that will happen one day, who knows. For now though, most of the burden is on me and it's heavy.

matwood 9y ago

I'm 40 and have never witnessed age discrimination[1]. I know multiple people 40+ and 50+ who work in tech and they don't seem to have any problems finding jobs (or being poached) or finding contracts. Admittedly, the people I know have all been ICs, managers, CTOs and back during their careers. I do not personally know anyone who has just been an IC their entire career. I'm sure age discrimination happens, but I wonder if this (like many things in tech) is common the SV bubble and way less common everywhere else. As someone else mentioned below, I think what age discrimination is out there is going to go away as the first big programming generation gets older. First, many ICs in general will be older. Second, and probably more important, is the whole generation who is getting older now is used to the skills treadmill. [1] I wonder if age discrimination is the wrong word here. I'm going to guess it's more of family obligation discrimination. A 40 something with no kids or family is not going to be that different from a 20 something without any obligations. Age has just become an easy proxy here because many people now wait until their 30s to have kids.