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How Seattle Got More People to Ride the Bus
- paule89 9y agoWell. If people start to invest into public Infrastructure and Busses, Trams, trains. The quality will increase and more people will use it. The same thing with dedicated bike lanes. Not for every scenario. But it helps the people. The low and middle class and that is the best we can do. Help those who don't have the money.
- selectodude 9y agoThe irony is people who need better public transit are the ones more virulently against bike lanes.
- mulmen 9y agoCan you substantiate this claim?
- mandelbrotwurst 9y agoI'm not the parent and I don't have any data, but I think he is saying that he thinks people in lower income areas tend to not be supportive of efforts to support bicycling and/or bicyclists. Just based on my personal experience, I think there may be some correlation, possibly due to the fact that bicycle commuters tend to be from higher income brackets, and that lower-income folks often see efforts to support bicycling as both a symptom and cause of gentrification that does not do anything to help them personally as they are less likely to be bicyclists themselves. Just my two cents.
- tomjakubowski 9y ago> bicycle commuters tend to be from higher income brackets In the United States, the income segment with the highest rate of bicycle commuting (1.5%) is those individuals earning $10k/year or less [1]. Workers from households earning under $35k/year are 10x more likely to bike to work than workers from other households [2]. Of course, this doesn't directly imply that bicycle commuters tend to not be from higher income brackets, but if you examine the US household income distribution [3], it seems probable; as of 2014, a third of US households have an income below $35k/year. The Census Bureau provides some data tools which one could certainly use to break down bicycle commuters by income category, but their interface gives me trouble. [1] https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2014/cb14-86.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2014/cb14-86.... [2] http://bikeleague.org/sites/default/files/equity_report.pdf http://bikeleague.org/sites/default/files/equity_report.pdf [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States#Distribution_of_household_income_in_2014_according_to_US_Census_data https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United...
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- icebraining 9y agoIs it ironic? If you live very far due to housing costs, bike lanes probably don't help you that much.
- tynpeddler 9y agoIronically, between the poor weather, the hills everywhere, the high traffic and the poor road surfaces, bike lanes are the last thing that Seattle should be worried about. At a given intersection downtown per cycle, you will see dozens of cars and people, and MAYBE one bike. Almost all of Seattle's bike infrastructure is very underutilized. But Seattle cyclists are loud when it comes to local politics, because most seattleites think of themselves as temporarily inconvenienced cyclists.
- Animats 9y agoMaybe the monorail plan will come back.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Monorail_Project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Monorail_Project
- akhilcacharya 9y agoI wonder how much this has to do with employers giving their employees ORCA cards
- adamnemecek 9y agoMy experience has been less than stellar. Busses coming 20 minutes late or not at all. 545 at 6 pm on a weekday is so over packed I feel like I’m going to second base with half of the bus. Seattle should look to a city like Vienna or Prague. The transportation systems are surprisingly well engineered but that might be due to the fact that a larger part of the population takes it.
- mulmen 9y agoI'm not a transit engineer but I think this is because we are asking buses to do too much. When a route sends a bendy bus every 10 minutes it's no longer a bus route and is now a really expensive train. The Rapid Rides are packed at rush hour as well. What we need is something like light rail that can go between neighborhoods and then let buses move people within those areas.
- taeric 9y agoThere are a multitude of answers. All require space. And building any of them will spike the problem for a time. That said, I think we are getting there. I'm somewhat confident that the current problems are the spike.
- mulmen 9y agoAgreed, I just wish the light rail expansions weren't going to take 20 years. We need those lines yesterday.
- WalterBright 9y agoThe Eastside Rail Corridor, from Renton to Bothell, has existed for more than 50 years. It even still has tracks on it.
- VintageCool 9y agoI find it infuriating that Renton asked for nothing in the ST3 bill, and Kirkland was swayed by a small group of activists into asking SoundTransit not to use the Cross Kirkland Corridor.
- Spooky23 9y agoThat’s awesome. The bus authority in my area saw massive ridership changes when they added BRT to one trunk route. It dramatically improved transfers and has been a boon to them.
- narrator 9y agoI think what Muni in SF has done with putting cameras and microphones everywhere has kept the thug problem under control. I used to ride Muni a lot before that and would regularly watch and overhear people graffiting, planning some sort of gang violence, screaming in ecstacy while obviously extremely high after refilling their opioid prescription at sf general, openly smoking their crack rocks across from me, etc. That's why people don't ride public transit.
- dawnerd 9y agoI’ve been harassed a few times in Portland and that stabbing that happened a while ago stopped Me from using the max trains completely. There’s like no law enforcement on them.
- DrScump 9y agoBoth Muni and BART are also getting more crowded due to the new California law[0] that exempts juveniles from fare evasion enforcement; they can effectively ride anywhere for free, now. [0] SB882 (Hertzberg) This one change costs BART alone $25 million per year (Matier & Ross, SF Chronicle, May 8 2017, page C1)
- njarboe 9y agoPersonal, on-demand, point-to-point, high-speed, low-cost, environmentally-friendly, and quiet transportation seems to me what people want. This is what we as a society should be working towards. Not making using a car so broken that a train or a bus in dedicated lane is the better option. I hope Elon Musk can get his tunnels with electric vehicles going and remove most of the problems with our current transportation systems. By taking the shortcut of making using a car a moral failing, instead of the negative externalities of car use, we end up condemning a great tool that just needs improvement to remove its current negative aspects.
- icebraining 9y agoIt's very hard to make a car anywhere as space efficient as a train or bus, though.
- njarboe 9y agoSpace efficient in what way? Parking. I don't think this is a limiting problem. It is the gridlock on the roads. Tunnels can be put underground with a large number of levels if need be. People don't really like the space efficiency of standing packed right next to each other for an hour. With an automatic system of vehicles you can build a tunnel/track and can put into the system any size vehicle you want. One passenger, two, three, ten, twenty, one hundred. What is the difference between a car, or a bus, or train anyway in this system? Without a driver needed you can have vehicles of any capacity.
- so33 9y agoNo, not just parking. For every passenger that takes a train, that’s one passenger not sitting in a car that takes much much more space. An average subway train can fit around 800 people seated, and takes up much less space than 800 cars. It is precisely how much space vehicles take while being driven that is the issue here. Likewise, “flexibility” is precisely the issue here. Why should a train carrying 800 people have effectively the same priority as a car that carries one, maybe two or three people? I know that it’s tantalizing to think that cheap tunneling can solve this issue, but you are just outsourcing the fundamental problem that traffic exists because people want to go places. A good example is going to the airport. People need to get off, unload their luggage, and there’s only one place you can do it, at the departures terminal. No amount of self-driving is going to solve the problem that the transport vehicle needs to stop, let these people off with their luggage, and start again.
- loukrazy 9y agoFor some commutes in Seattle the bus is way faster than trying to drive out of downtown. The bus tunnel is pretty fantastic.
- ronnier 9y agoThe problem in the Seattle area (including Kirkland and surrounding areas) continues to be 1) Park and rides are completely full by 8:30 2) street parking was stopped in many areas by making it 2 to 4 hours only 3) many waiting areas have no cover -- so you'll stand in the rain waiting for a late bus.
- somethingsimple 9y ago> many waiting areas have no cover -- so you'll stand in the rain waiting for a late bus. This is something I don't get about the Seattle area. It's like people here are in complete denial about the fact that it rains for 9 months a year. It's not just bus stops - my daughter says recess at school sucks most of the year because the playground and other play areas are all uncovered. So all the kids have to stay stuck in a very limited covered area where there's nothing for them to do. Same thing with parks - no covered playgrounds or places where people can sit and relax without getting wet.
- tjr225 9y agoBelieve it or not, your epidermis is waterproof.
- jsolson 9y agoIt tends to be annoyingly cool when it rains for about six months out of the year. Take today for example -- 50 and raining. It won't kill you if you're otherwise healthy, but being caught out in it without proper attire feels "shitty". Good rain gear that you can wear every day for months doesn't come cheap, either.
- matt_the_bass 9y agoMy city “solved” the bus traffic issue by reducing bus coverage during rush hour. No wonder no one finds the bus in my area convenient.
- jlmorton 9y agoI don't want to take away from the good things that Seattle has done with transit, but it's worth pointing out that Seattle is far and away the fastest growing city in the US, with an astonishing 3.1% (21,000 people) between 2015-2016. If ridership increased by 4.1% between 2015-2016, then population growth alone may account for a significant chunk of that. https://www.seattle.gov/opcd/population-and-demographics https://www.seattle.gov/opcd/population-and-demographics https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/data/seattle-once-again-nations-fastest-growing-big-city-population-exceeds-700000/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/data/seattle-once-...
- keepkalm 9y agoAnd some of the worst housing affordability. People who move out of the city can't justify to drive and park in Seattle. It would be near impossible to navigate Metro, SoundTransit, and surrounding transit agencies without OneBusAway or Google Maps. Idk, SoundTranist also tried a massive money grab on car tabs on inflated valuations. They are doing just as much to undermine support for transit as anyone.
- aaronbrethorst 9y agoThanks, I appreciate the kind words about the utility of OneBusAway for you. You may not know this, but the people who make OneBusAway for iOS and Android are unpaid volunteers. n.b. I'm the maintainer of OneBusAway for iOS.
- loeg 9y agoThank you for your volunteer work! It is appreciated. I've relied upon the various forms of One Bus service from 2008-present and it is immensely useful.
- aaronbrethorst 9y agoThanks, I did too, which led me to volunteering on the iOS app a few years back. One thing led to another, and I now maintain it. I can always use more help, and I'm happy to help people who are just getting their feet wet on iOS learn more: https://github.com/OneBusAway/onebusaway-iphone#picking-an-appropriate-first-time-issue https://github.com/OneBusAway/onebusaway-iphone#picking-an-a...
- baybal2 9y agoDoes any US city have private run in-city public transport?
- krallja 9y agoNot in-city, but Fishers, IN has a privately run express bus to Indianapolis http://www.fishers.in.us/DocumentCenter/View/1665 http://www.fishers.in.us/DocumentCenter/View/1665
- lovich 9y agoThere's EZ-ride in Boston which has a few routes and uses the same model of buses as the mbta as far as I can tell[1]. There was also Bridj in Boston and DC, which wasn't buses but Vans and it was supposedly changing it's routes to meet demand on a frequent basis[2]. Bridj did shut down however. [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EZRide https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EZRide [2]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridj https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridj
- tomjakubowski 9y agoDenver does for two rail lines. https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2017/06/07/rtd-put-on-notice-by-contracyordenver-transit.html https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2017/06/07/rtd-put-o... (edit: not actually "in city", I guess, since it's commuter rail) The heavily urbanized San Gabriel Valley in the LA metro is serviced by—amongst a few public transit agencies, including the county's system, Metro—the privately operated Foothill Transit. Foothill also runs commuter bus lines to/from downtown LA.
- bensonn 9y agoHow did Seattle get more people to ride the bus? 1. They made coummuting by car miserable. Average commute time for Everett to Seattle (24 miles) is 76 minutes, Federal Way to Seattle (22 miles) is 66 minutes... Reducing congestion is not a goal of WA DOT. 2. They make driving really expensive. $30 car tabs that cost hundreds (if not thousands) and one of the highest gas taxes in the nation. 3. They subsidize the heck out of it. Bus fares cover less than 1/3 the cost of operating the bus. Ironically, if it weren't for all the cars the buses couldn't afford to operate. For every driver that switches to buses cost go up and revenue goes down. Maybe this is fine, but I don't think it should be ingored. This article seemed to praise Seattle and Metro but the area is always ranked as one of the worst traffic areas in the nation. If it is working so well, why is it so bad? Is there something Seattle or King County Metro has done well that makes people want to use it? Does it smell nice, is it quiet, are the drivers really friendly, do they offer good coffee..? Or is mass transit around here "good" compared to all the other bad options. One thing that is not transit's fault that makes traffic bad around here- Seattle area is filled with some of the worst drivers I have ever seen. Born and raised here so I think I am allowed to criticize, we collectively suck at driving!
- techsupporter 9y agoCommuting from Everett to Seattle via single-occupant car has taken forever since the turn of the century. 405 and I5 simply don't have the space for all of those cars. That's what transit does: it provides an alternative--primarily through the use of HOV/HOT lanes--to slogging along in your own car. Also, on those car tabs, voters approved them ourselves. Every single transit-related charge on your vehicle registration was approved by a measure put in front of voters. (Same for sales tax.) I disagree strongly with our legislature's predilection for punting hard tax issuers to voters but if you're gonna blame anybody, you've only the voting public to blame. (Full disclosure: I've voted "yes" on every single transit tax measure--except for the monorail--I've ever seen.) Oh, and on farebox recovery: very, very few transit systems recover their cost of operation. In the United States, only the Las Vegas Monorail recovers 100% of its costs. The only widely-used system that comes close is San Francisco's BART at 71%. (All figures courtesy Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio) It may come as a surprise to you, but vehicle owners don't directly pay the cost for the roads they drive upon, either. The motor vehicle fuel tax basically pays for the Washington State highway system (including part of the Washington State Ferries...which also has approximately a 70% farebox recovery ratio[0]). County and local general fund taxes pay for local roads, including basically every road you drive on inside a municipality. This is the same for transit. County and city taxes pay for the bulk of the service and fares and grants cover the rest. Oh, and public transit taxes in Washington State are almost universally put in front of the voters because the legislature won't let transit agencies impose taxes on their own authority. Road and fuel taxes? Pfft, those are somehow different and they get imposed by the legislature with no vote. I want the legislature and our representatives to handle taxation and spending; that's why we elect them. But this double standard of approval-required-for-transit-but-not-for-roads is galling. 0 - http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/A72D0350-674E-4D50-8483-109EC26B8F3F/0/FY2016ROUTESTATEMENTS.pdf http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/A72D0350-674E-4D50-8483...
- jorblumesea 9y agoAll of these are great things, but I think there's a few other practical considerations the author missed: 1) Paying for parking is really expensive compared to other cities. A downtown parking spot is easily ~$300/month. 2) Most employers subsidize orca cards (transit pass) but do not subsidize parking spots 3) With Seattle traffic being as bad as it is, most buses are just as fast as cars because of the prioritization they get. In any other city the bus takes twice as long. In Seattle it's on par with driving. 4) Seattle's natural geography encourages density which makes public transit more effective. Most new hires and population growth is also happening in the closer in neighborhoods which are already well connected to transit. 5) Suburban commuting is harshly punished by the above geographical and societal pressures. If you live in Woodinville and commute to the SLU you're looking at 1hr, one way, on a good day. Similar point about population growth happening close in to the city.
- TulliusCicero 9y agoRe: 4, it's funny because while Seattle is somewhat dense by American standards...it's still got tons and tons of areas that are restricted to only low-density detached single family homes. A major city like Seattle should have few if any areas like that. (Not that SFHs should be illegal of course, but they shouldn't be mandated)
- mikeytown2 9y agoIf the park and ride lots didn’t fill up the bus would be viable for our household. We actually went from using the bus to not using it because of this issue.
- mschuster91 9y ago> They added bus bulbs on the side of the road to pick up passengers without blocking traffic. Interesting. Here in Munich new bus stations are explicitly not in bulb form, because buses tend to pick up too much delay from morons ignoring the bus while it blinks and blinks and blinks until finally someone has the sense to let the bus merge into traffic. On the other hand, the "blocking" way has its own downsides. I live on a 1-lane-per-direction road, directly next to a recently converted bus station - and now I have angry honking whenever there's a load of school kids or wheelchair-bound people, and morons trying to overtake the car on the other direction's lane... so far no accident has happened but I'm waiting for it.
- userbinator 9y agobecause buses tend to pick up too much delay from morons ignoring the bus while it blinks and blinks and blinks until finally someone has the sense to let the bus merge into traffic. That would be easily solved by making buses always have the right of way --- when it starts signaling, traffic behind it has to stop if safe to do so and let it merge in.
- brewdad 9y agoIn Portland, they already do have right of way. Still drivers often don't yield. Most experienced bus drivers learn to just play a game of chicken and pull out anyway. Makes for some exciting conflicts.
- jsolson 9y agoI would describe the bus drivers in Seattle as assertive. They make their own way if nobody yields.
- piokuc 9y agoTransportation is a big and growing problem and this exceptionally interesting HN discussion is a testimony to that. But, no mention of a potential to reduce the problem by increasing the number of people working remotely from home and eliminating part of the transportation demand. Any thoughts on this?
- uberstuber 9y agoTax breaks for companies that implement 4 day work weeks / off peak commute times / WFH days? If I ran a company I'd want my employees to have shorter commutes anyway. A stressful drive in the morning can't be great for productivity.
- zanny 9y agoI can't imagine remoting will be that huge a chunk of the market for a long while. Even in software whenever I go over postings its usually only about 20% that offer remote as an option - and in practice software development is one of the most remote friendly careers.
- leyth 9y agoThe Seattle bus system is pretty good, they’re always improving. I know that a lot of people won’t ride the bus because they complain about homeless people sleeping in the back, it is an over exaggeration. Lately, I’ve noticed an influx of tech bros who refused to ride the bus because it “smells bad.” I’ve been using the Seattle public transit over 7 years to mostly commute to downtown, it has been a good experience.
- paxunix 9y agoIt could get even more people to ride the bus if they extended the idea of dedicated lanes for buses farther into the suburbs and along major corridors (like I-5, but they'd get crucified by all the car drivers if that were to happen). I absolutely hate my commute because on the very best of days (i.e. minimal traffic, which is almost never), it's 1h20m long (were I to drive on that exact same day and conditions instead, it would be 30 minutes--that's a steep price to pay for me to prefer public transit). 10 years ago it was great--40 minutes max by bus, but commuting from point A to point B almost only ever gets worse over time, never better. I'd love to take the bus all the time if it was much more consistent--but it never will be.
- locusofself 9y agoRiding the bus in Seattle is usually a bad experience (olfactory, auditory, etc). Hobos, wangsters, creepers, stinkers, etc. But it costs ~$40 to park downtown for work day. How could anyone afford/justify that? I had a parking pass that my company paid for for about $250 a month for a while. The lot was crazy packed and was valet only (but not in a nice way). I work from home now, and we got an office in Lynnwood. Not as cool, but it works for us. Parking was too expensive, bus far too time consuming..
- mseidl 9y agoI used to Work in Seattle. I just moved to Belltown a few blocks from work. Saved a lot of money on gas and commute time. Parking was a pain, but then again my company offered a subsidized 90$/mo pass. My rent did go up a lot, but when factoring in gas/time saved it was worth it to me. But this was quite some time ago.
- matty22 9y agoI live on the Eastside, so not sure that my experience qualifies as "Seattle", but bus transit is so good here that I sold my car and my wife and I reduced down to a single car household. I bus commute to work 5 days a week and couldn't be happier. My bus is nearly never late, my connections are short, the buses are clean and comfortable. I have no regrets on selling my car.
- juancn 9y ago78000 passengers a day? Isn't that too low? I'm from Buenos Aires and buses alone move 1.7M people each day.