11 ms·

How we buy plane tickets and why it's ruining air travel

134 points by jaf12duke 16y ago

abyssknight 16y ago
I'm reading this article while staring at my confirmed boarding pass that reads, "Seat Request" right next to the shiny barcode.
jwr 16y ago
It's a great article about something I've wanted to write about for a long time. I've been wondering why the airlines worked so hard to kill any differentiation and commoditize their business. The experience today is really similar on all airlines, with parts of it being exactly the same, outsourced away (ground handling, gates, security, lost luggage handling, etc).
- SRSimko 16y ago
  I agree, every bit of the airline experience is being outsourced to the lowest bidder (from flying the planes down to fixing them). It's all too easy to purchase a ticket and never talk to any of the parent airline's employees but you'd never know. In some cases this is good and while in some cases, not so much. IMO, most of the airlines don't want employees or to control a brand they just want to sell tickets.
  - ertyuiolkiujhg 16y ago
    Thats why the good LCC are very good (Southwestern, Virgin America, Westjet) - they do have good employees When the majors play at being LCC by outsourcing everything to outfits with a single regional jet it's terrible.
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  They worked hard to commoditize because that's what customers wanted. I had a great experience flying Porter last Monday, but I'm not going to pay $30 extra on my next flight just for free beer and terra chips. The only thing I'd pay extra for is an exit row seat and I'm a special case (most people are not 6'5").
sshumaker 16y ago
How do you expect consumers to view flying as anything but a commodity when I can pay 2x more then the customer sitting next to me? The airlines, with their byzantine and constantly shifting prices, have totally ruined any correlation between 'price' and 'value'. It's completely arbitrary from the point of view of the consumer. I might end up an old plane with a horrible seating configuration, or a brand new plane with plenty of legroom and in-flight entertainment. All on the same airline, between the same cities. My experience has no correlation with the price I'm paying, unless I decide to pony up for business class. Even then, among business class, there's a big difference among airlines. The industry is so concerned with extracting the maximum amount per customer, they forget that it's more important to grow their customer base. That said, I've been flying almost exclusively Virgin (America/Atlantic) for the last year or two, and they are definitely a cut above. Virgin America has an entire fleet of brand new planes, comfortable seats, personal in-flight entertainment and wifi, and great staff. Virgin Atlantic has Premium Economy, which is so worth the extra few hundred dollars (as opposed to the 2x for business) for flights to Europe. Here, at least, I can justify the price difference, at least vis-a-vis competing airlines.
- asmithmd1 16y ago
  From the article: "So why is air travel, among the most differentiated experiences we have in the normal course of life, purchased by so many people as a commodity?" So not true. A restaurant is a much more differentiated experience and also a "perishable" one that people are willing to pay a premium for. JetBlue has TV's and SouthWest has free luggage but you can't pick your seat -- what other differences are there between airlines? I you think you hit the nail on the head with the airlines destruction of any price/value correlation. The table next to me might be getting a free appetizer or desert but they are not going to be paying 1/5 or 5x as much as I am.
  - city41 16y ago
    > So not true. A restaurant is a much more differentiated experience and also a "perishable" one that people are willing to pay a premium for. Yes but a meal at a restaurant is the primary experience. People are deliberately seeking a good one as eating a fine meal is their intent. Flying an airplane is just a means to an end. An annoyance really. And in that mind set most people aren't going to care, myself included.
chime 16y ago
> The first is price, the second is schedule. Everything else is a distant third. Not in my case. 1. Not an airline on my bad_list 2. Price 3. Schedule E.g. I will not fly Air India, regardless of the price/schedule. Keep playing around with #2 and #3 but do not screw up so much that you get on #1 or else I will boycott you for life. Also when #2 and #3 are same, I have #4 - Airlines I like (JetBlue, SouthWest etc.). Off topic but relevant: I always check out my plane through seatguru.com before I buy the tickets. Definitely helps maximize my comfort at no additional cost.
- mey 16y ago
  I'd be interested to hear other people's airline bad lists. Mine is basically United at the moment. (Largely for fleet age (in my personal experience), and dismissive FA's) Prefer to when possible fly, JetBlue, Southwest and Alaskan Air if the price is drastically all over the board.
  - matwood 16y ago
    I don't really have a bad list. I first look for flights on Frontier then SW and Jetblue. If none of those work out I default to Delta for the skymiles and most of their planes have in flight internet from what I have seen. What always gets me is that long haul flights seem to have less room than domestic flights or the regionals. The most uncomfortable flight I've ever had was from ATL -> Tokyo because the seats were so close together. I ended up spending hours just sitting in the galley with the flight attendants.
  - TimeForThis 16y ago
    In in the UK so my bad list is limited to Ryanair.
  - ubernostrum 16y ago
    Delta. The only time you'll get me in one of their planes is for a one-hop to or from Atlanta, and even then I'll think hard about whether I can get on another airline. The number of patently absurd things they've done to me would fill quite a lengthy post, though. Whenever possible (i.e., heading westward, domestic US) I fly Frontier. For other destinations, US Airways is my preferred option, mostly because their hub -- Charlotte -- is actually a rather nice and not-too-crowded airport.
sliverstorm 16y ago
For me, price is #1, and everything else is a distant third. Then again, I'm not the target audience of this article. I fly rarely, and an airplane ticket represents a very sizable chunk of my income. Because of that, I will put up with a poor experience, and this is why I am not prepared to spend $10 more for the plane that gives the better 'experience'.
- GFischer 16y ago
  The article lacks some statistics and research. If I wanted to understand, I'd look at what % of the travellers are frequent flyers (with a standardized definition of "frequent flier" of course), the level of income (differentiated between frequent flyers and other as-yet-to-be-determined categories, maybe holiday trips, business trips, family trips, etc.). Not to mention there might be some irrational decisions or decisions not directly attributable to the customer. My "instinct" is that the airline managers have it right: price is #1, and schedule is #2 - like for silverstorm, a flight is easily several months' worth of income for me, and I don't have much flexibility with my holidays OR business trips.
  - nandemo 16y ago
    > The article lacks some statistics and research. In fact, I believe there are statistics out there that contradict the article's suggestion that there aren't significant and consistent differences between airlines. http://www.airlinequality.com/ http://www.airlinequality.com/ I don't know if this particular website is unbiased. But at least in my limited experience, the Japanese companies (JAL and ANA) and Swiss Air are much better than American Airlines, Continental and Canadian.
    - notahacker 16y ago
      Sure, Skytrax surveys can draw conclusions about average difference between airlines but they don't really account for the variance in flight quality, which is one of the chief factors that discourages people from paying a premium for a "quality" airline...there's no guarantee of even acceptable quality by paying more and most LCCs offer a safe and tolerable environment. Moreover, their sample is necessarily skewed away from the many people who use price as their main or only differentiator between airlines. A quick glance at the reviews section of the same site will show plenty of low ratings for "top" airlines and good ratings even for the likes of Ryanair (an airline that actively seeks negative publicity for its customer care in order to create the perception its tickets are cheaper than they actually are). I think its fair to say that few people fly for the intrinsic pleasure of being strapped into a seat in a narow metal tube, so "premium" airlines are mostly about minimising the displeasure. Other than seat comfort, arguably the main factors that can make a journey deeply unpleasant are largely uncorrelated with price. Unpleasant neighbours can happen anywhere, and many LCCs are statistically more likely to depart on time than their higher priced competition (their business model depends on it and they avoid busy hub airports) I considered creating an airline guide type site but shelved it because I'm just not convinced the consumer interest is there. Now if someone could make the process of booking _other_ aspects of a holiday more engaging and differentiated (forget price comparisons, wildly disparate customer reviews and grainy pictures in favour of something engaging, social and interactive) I think they'd make a mint.
jakarta 16y ago
I think air travel is destined to be a commodity for most people. Typically when we are flying we are trying to get to another place, where we will be away from work and spending a lot of money. Think the trip to Disney World. Or your European vacation. By saving money on the flight we will have more money to spend at our destination. I remember looking between Jet Blue and Continental for a flight to NYC recently. I had a great time with Jet Blue because they had TVs on board and I enjoyed the free wifi in their terminal when returning. But, price-wise Jet Blue would be $20 more than Continental. For me, the extra $20 I save could be used to eat out a couple more times in NYC so it was easy to forgo the in flight convenience for what I weighed as the greater use of my money. I think that also, the capital intensive nature of the business which yields low returns on investment, in the context of being in a highly regulated industry with unionized employees makes risk taking pretty limited. So, most of the players just copy each other which also helps re-enforce the commoditized product that they produce.
snitko 16y ago
I'm really sorry if it's a bit of an off-topic, but this thread seems like a good place to ask: anyone remembers this long and interesting multi-pages document (was posted on HN) about how prices on air tickets are calculated and how all this big system works? Can't find the link.
- bockris 16y ago
  http://www.demarcken.org/carl/papers/ITA-software-travel-complexity/img1.html http://www.demarcken.org/carl/papers/ITA-software-travel-com... from http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1479107 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1479107
  - snitko 16y ago
    Thank you so much! I've been seeking this for months.
j-g-faustus 16y ago
I'd add a fourth factor: The fact that we travel more frequently. If you are flying something like once per decade flying might feel like an adventure in its own right and you may be willing to splurge a bit. But the more often you need to fly between A and B, the more similar it becomes to taking the bus, subway or a taxi, all of which already are commodities. I expect there is room for more "exclusive" experiences at a higher price, just like there is for groceries. Or as with limousine rental vs taxi. But fundamentally it's just transport - I'm flying because I need to get somewhere else quickly. If I were traveling for the experience I would probably go by motorcycle, train or boat instead.
- Sukotto 16y ago
  The fact that we travel more frequently. I travel far less often now than a few years ago. I feel the airports today are so flier hostile that I would rather just stay home. My last few vacations were spent within driving distance of my home. Even though I could easily afford the airfare. To put that into perspective... I used to fly a lot. A weekend trip across country would not have been an unusual thing for me. My wife and I flew to Japan several times a year to visit family... we just don't do that anymore. Now I'll fly on business if I have to. but that's pretty much it.
  - j-g-faustus 16y ago
    > I travel far FAR less often now than a few years ago. So do I. I never found flying particularly pleasant, whether economy or business class, and after a decade of frequent business flying I pick other alternatives (including staying at home) whenever I can. But the US travel statistics http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_01_37.html http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_stat... seems to say that "people" still fly more - 350 bill. passenger miles in 1990, 530 bill. in 2000, 583 in 2008. Although it's down a bit from the peak years 2006-2007.
    - logic 16y ago
      I'm a visual kind of guy, so I pulled those travel stats into Google Docs: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AqzimL8-eYhYdDdkcC1fS3I1VkFsQWppUDhGWDVCM2c&hl=en https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AqzimL8-eYhYdDdkcC1... The chart sheet has a graph of total miles traveled. Compare to US population: http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=uspopulation&ctype=l&strail=false&nselm=h&met_y=population&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=state&tdim=true&tstart=331257600000&tunit=M&tlen=348&hl=en&dl=en http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=uspopulation&ctype=l...
akeefer 16y ago
One thing I think that this analysis misses is the fact that, for most people, you're not going to enjoy the flight no matter what. At that point most people shift from "maximize enjoyment" mode, where paying more for something better is more rational, to "minimize costs mode." If I'm going to spend 5 hours being uncomfortable whether I spend $300 or $500, what's the point in paying more? I think there's a certain enjoyment threshold below which something becomes "unpleasant," and moving from one state below that threshold to another state also below that threshold isn't as valuable as a similar state shift would be if the initial state happened to be above that threshold.
- ghshephard 16y ago
  "you're not going to enjoy the flight no matter what." Why aren't there carriers that try and create a comfortable and enjoyable flight experience? The article spent a great deal of time explaining that people pay on two factors, price and schedule. Attempting to differentiate on comfort doesn't win you more customers, therefore, the carriers aren't incented to create a comfortable flight experience. I've certainly had some really outstanding flight experiences, usually when being upgraded. But, I think I see what you are getting at - we're so far beyond that point right now, that subtle increases in comfort won't register - you need a quantum leap - something akin to moving into first class, to really capture people's imagination.
  - abyssknight 16y ago
    Well, JetBlue kind of does this already. You get more leg room and infinite snacks/drinks on every flight. They also have live television for free, in flight.
    - joe_the_user 16y ago
      Virgin America has leather seats, AC plugs in every seat, $12 wifi, decent meals for $10 and lots of TV channels with LCD screens at every seat that go on all by themselves. They still packed us in like a sardines but, hey, I could have bought business class for an extra $100 at the gate (I bought the meal and used the plug, though my laptop was a bit big for the space). I personally found the experience like a bad sci-fi nightmare but it does seem they are trying for what some people might enjoy.
autarch 16y ago
I'm 6'7" (200 cm), so being stuck in a typical economy class seat is extremely uncomfortable for me. On my next long trip (from Minneapolis to Italy), I chose to spend about double for business class, because the prospect of 10 hours flying in economy literally terrifies me. When I fly to Taiwan I make a point of traveling on Eva (a Taiwanese airline) which has a class between economy & business (like Virgin). It's well worth the extra cost for a 12 hour flight. I would gladly pay a premium for exit row or galley seats with more legroom. I still don't understand why airlines don't consistently sell these seats in advance. In years when I'm flying a lot, I always stick with the same airline. Getting elite status gives you free upgrades and first crack at some of the more comfortable seats. All of which is to say that price & schedule are not really my #1 considerations.
- detst 16y ago
  I haven't flown too many different airlines recently but some do sell exit-row seats in advance and usually don't sell them all so asking as soon as you get to the gate can get one for free. It's one of those things where being polite and directly asking for something can go a long way.
  - autarch 16y ago
    Delta, which has most of the gates in Minneapolis, does not sell exit row in advance, and I wouldn't count on getting it when I'm going to be flying for 10 hours to Italy. Northwest would sell the exit row seats in advance, but unless you had elite status, you could only purchase them 24 hours in advance. This was great when I had elite status, but sucked otherwise. I would gladly pay $100+ for exit row if I could get it when I book my ticket.
- mcargian 16y ago
  Both United and Jetblue have extra legroom economy sections available for purchase by anyone well in advance. I think this shows that the original article is incorrect in its assumption that given more product differentiation people will chose an alternate airline. If more people were willing to pay for extra legroom then more airlines would offer these "economy plus" sections. For me, I'll stick to flying one airline, keeping my elite status which almost always guarantees me an upgrade to first class.
ronnier 16y ago
I've traveled to about 30 countries within Africa, Asia, Middle East, Europe, Central America and a lot of travel within the US. Of course there have been hiccups along the way, but overall it's been pleasant and I just don't share the feelings with others that air travel is a horrible experience. I believe my point of view stems from the happiness of being able to travel around the world so cheaply (even free with airline miles). This wasn't even possible until modern times and it is easy to take for granted.
sqrt17 16y ago
One thing that always bugged me about air travel in the US is the time you spend on the ground, standing in queues, pulling your shoes off, putting them back on again. You'll say that this is for better security. It's not an effective way to achieve better security. In Europe, queues are shorter and people only have to remove their shoes when there's a reason for it. Europe has not exploded yet - put it down to behavioral profiling, making good use of extant security measures and (for the most part) having enough personnel to avoid the building up of queues. To pick the restaurant analogy, it has the same effect on the airlines as it would for a restaurant to have pseudo-policemen sit in front of their door and bully everyone, building up a long queue.
- mmt 16y ago
  You'll say that this is for better security. I doubt many here on HN would say that. It makes for better theater perhaps, but, really, it's just a way to bolster that theater industry. Personally, I don't think the feds are very good at entertaining. It's certainly made flying between Southern California and the Bay Area take long enough that driving doesn't seem as preposterous an alternative, especially for a last-minute trip. High-speed rail, with a 3-hour travel time would even be comparable, until, of course, somebody tries to bring exploding shoes on board or realizes that downtown LA isn't likely to host a convenient car rental facility any time soon.
  - vl 16y ago
    This winter I took train from Seattle to Vancouver, BC. There was a security check before boarding the train, but it was much much faster than airport. Train was patrolled by assault rifle-armed guards in bullet-proof vests, some had dogs. I still trying to imagine what is the threat profile they were trying to respond to.
    - mmt 16y ago
      How long did the trip end up taking, and how much did it cost? I'm curious if there's much, if any, time savings versus driving[1]. [1] With a highly variable border crossing time if not all passengers hold a NEXUS card
dotBen 16y ago
Interesting post, but what was missed is that corporate travel accounts for a large degree of airline ticket spend - and those values (price and schedule) are that BigCo business cares about. The post was written from the perspective of the flyer also being the purchaser (either leisure or small business travel) but when tickets are purchased for you, or you have to purchase within a financial policy all that it comes down to is price (and to some extent, schedule). The CFO doesn't care whether AirlineX has more comfortable seats than ArlineZ and isn't going to authorize purchases because of it.
- dartland 16y ago
  Very true, although most companies that have corporate contracts do so for multiple major airlines, so there still is choice. Also, corporate contracts have much more influence for international travel, they aren't nearly as meaningful for domestic travel.
latch 16y ago
seatguru.com addresses some of this already. Although, the limited extra info they provide doesn't often help to differentiate one flight from the other.
gyardley 16y ago
This post mentions loyalty programs for frequent flyers, but it completely underestimates their importance. The difference between business class and coach is so stark, just a reasonable chance at an upgrade completely decommoditizes the inventory. Because of this, the most profitable customers certainly aren't basing their decisions solely on price. Myself, I always fly American, not because the coach experience is any better but because I've got about a one-in-four chance of getting upgraded to business class. Just a couple of days ago I got upgraded on my redeye back from SFO - well worth the $35 or so extra I paid for the seat vs. the equivalent flight on a competing airline. Slept like a baby, and I certainly couldn't have done that back in steerage.
jballanc 16y ago
How much will I pay for SFO to NYC? Well, that depends...is it more than two weeks out? Less than two weeks out? Is it a popular day to travel? Convenient route? Who else is flying? So many factors that make it difficult to know when to buy and what to expect to pay... For example, something I've noticed recently: the SFO to NYC red-eye will be cheaper than the evening flights up until about 3-5 weeks before the day of travel. Then, the red-eye will suddenly jump to almost double the price of the other tickets. All I can figure is that more than 3-5 weeks out, most of the people buying tickets are tourists, and tourists tend to not like taking red-eyes. Once you get inside the 3-5 week window, that buying pattern switches to primarily business travelers. For a business traveler, the red-eye means still getting in a full day of work before leaving, so they tend to favor that schedule. The fact that the price fluctuates so rapidly, and depends more on the buying patterns of other consumers than on the product itself, makes plane tickets look an awful lot like a futures market! And you know what else is sold on futures markets? ...commodities.
aneth 16y ago
I buy Southwest always for one reason: no change fees. Every dollar I spend is applicable toward another fare if I don't go or want to change times. I spend more money sometimes, less money others, but always have confidence I'm not throwing money away or being nickel and dimed. Every single other airline focuses on profitability through obscurity and I simply can't stand that.
loewenskind 16y ago
You want to know what's really ruining air travel? Security. With e.g. TSA and their "exactly the wrong person for the job" approach to staffing, pricing scams (ever notice that right after you get out of the security check line, where they made you pour out your water, there is a store selling normal water for 5x the normal price?), etc., etc. the price for an airline ticket is basically asking you how much you'd be willing to pay to get gang raped. I hate flying now, and to the US most of all. But I have a solution to fix all the problems (well, it would still be a commodity...): When you get to the airport, someone takes your ticket and gasses you. You wake up in your destination (or occasionally a totally random place, but that would still be better than what it's like now. Especially since you slept through it). That would solve everyone's problem. Who cares about seats, you can just make bays to stack the sleeping people in. You can carry more people. You can have a vastly smaller staff, pretty much just a pilot and a loading/unloading crew. For security you can do any check you need to but most will be unnecessary since the people wont be conscious.

134 points by jaf12duke 16y ago

I'm reading this article while staring at my confirmed boarding pass that reads, "Seat Request" right next to the shiny barcode.

jwr 16y ago

It's a great article about something I've wanted to write about for a long time. I've been wondering why the airlines worked so hard to kill any differentiation and commoditize their business. The experience today is really similar on all airlines, with parts of it being exactly the same, outsourced away (ground handling, gates, security, lost luggage handling, etc).

SRSimko 16y ago
I agree, every bit of the airline experience is being outsourced to the lowest bidder (from flying the planes down to fixing them). It's all too easy to purchase a ticket and never talk to any of the parent airline's employees but you'd never know. In some cases this is good and while in some cases, not so much. IMO, most of the airlines don't want employees or to control a brand they just want to sell tickets.
- ertyuiolkiujhg 16y ago
  Thats why the good LCC are very good (Southwestern, Virgin America, Westjet) - they do have good employees When the majors play at being LCC by outsourcing everything to outfits with a single regional jet it's terrible.
yummyfajitas 16y ago
They worked hard to commoditize because that's what customers wanted. I had a great experience flying Porter last Monday, but I'm not going to pay $30 extra on my next flight just for free beer and terra chips. The only thing I'd pay extra for is an exit row seat and I'm a special case (most people are not 6'5").

sshumaker 16y ago

How do you expect consumers to view flying as anything but a commodity when I can pay 2x more then the customer sitting next to me? The airlines, with their byzantine and constantly shifting prices, have totally ruined any correlation between 'price' and 'value'. It's completely arbitrary from the point of view of the consumer. I might end up an old plane with a horrible seating configuration, or a brand new plane with plenty of legroom and in-flight entertainment. All on the same airline, between the same cities. My experience has no correlation with the price I'm paying, unless I decide to pony up for business class. Even then, among business class, there's a big difference among airlines. The industry is so concerned with extracting the maximum amount per customer, they forget that it's more important to grow their customer base. That said, I've been flying almost exclusively Virgin (America/Atlantic) for the last year or two, and they are definitely a cut above. Virgin America has an entire fleet of brand new planes, comfortable seats, personal in-flight entertainment and wifi, and great staff. Virgin Atlantic has Premium Economy, which is so worth the extra few hundred dollars (as opposed to the 2x for business) for flights to Europe. Here, at least, I can justify the price difference, at least vis-a-vis competing airlines.

asmithmd1 16y ago
From the article: "So why is air travel, among the most differentiated experiences we have in the normal course of life, purchased by so many people as a commodity?" So not true. A restaurant is a much more differentiated experience and also a "perishable" one that people are willing to pay a premium for. JetBlue has TV's and SouthWest has free luggage but you can't pick your seat -- what other differences are there between airlines? I you think you hit the nail on the head with the airlines destruction of any price/value correlation. The table next to me might be getting a free appetizer or desert but they are not going to be paying 1/5 or 5x as much as I am.
- city41 16y ago
  > So not true. A restaurant is a much more differentiated experience and also a "perishable" one that people are willing to pay a premium for. Yes but a meal at a restaurant is the primary experience. People are deliberately seeking a good one as eating a fine meal is their intent. Flying an airplane is just a means to an end. An annoyance really. And in that mind set most people aren't going to care, myself included.

chime 16y ago

> The first is price, the second is schedule. Everything else is a distant third. Not in my case. 1. Not an airline on my bad_list 2. Price 3. Schedule E.g. I will not fly Air India, regardless of the price/schedule. Keep playing around with #2 and #3 but do not screw up so much that you get on #1 or else I will boycott you for life. Also when #2 and #3 are same, I have #4 - Airlines I like (JetBlue, SouthWest etc.). Off topic but relevant: I always check out my plane through seatguru.com before I buy the tickets. Definitely helps maximize my comfort at no additional cost.

mey 16y ago
I'd be interested to hear other people's airline bad lists. Mine is basically United at the moment. (Largely for fleet age (in my personal experience), and dismissive FA's) Prefer to when possible fly, JetBlue, Southwest and Alaskan Air if the price is drastically all over the board.
- matwood 16y ago
  I don't really have a bad list. I first look for flights on Frontier then SW and Jetblue. If none of those work out I default to Delta for the skymiles and most of their planes have in flight internet from what I have seen. What always gets me is that long haul flights seem to have less room than domestic flights or the regionals. The most uncomfortable flight I've ever had was from ATL -> Tokyo because the seats were so close together. I ended up spending hours just sitting in the galley with the flight attendants.
- TimeForThis 16y ago
  In in the UK so my bad list is limited to Ryanair.
- ubernostrum 16y ago
  Delta. The only time you'll get me in one of their planes is for a one-hop to or from Atlanta, and even then I'll think hard about whether I can get on another airline. The number of patently absurd things they've done to me would fill quite a lengthy post, though. Whenever possible (i.e., heading westward, domestic US) I fly Frontier. For other destinations, US Airways is my preferred option, mostly because their hub -- Charlotte -- is actually a rather nice and not-too-crowded airport.

sliverstorm 16y ago

For me, price is #1, and everything else is a distant third. Then again, I'm not the target audience of this article. I fly rarely, and an airplane ticket represents a very sizable chunk of my income. Because of that, I will put up with a poor experience, and this is why I am not prepared to spend $10 more for the plane that gives the better 'experience'.

GFischer 16y ago
The article lacks some statistics and research. If I wanted to understand, I'd look at what % of the travellers are frequent flyers (with a standardized definition of "frequent flier" of course), the level of income (differentiated between frequent flyers and other as-yet-to-be-determined categories, maybe holiday trips, business trips, family trips, etc.). Not to mention there might be some irrational decisions or decisions not directly attributable to the customer. My "instinct" is that the airline managers have it right: price is #1, and schedule is #2 - like for silverstorm, a flight is easily several months' worth of income for me, and I don't have much flexibility with my holidays OR business trips.
- nandemo 16y ago
  > The article lacks some statistics and research. In fact, I believe there are statistics out there that contradict the article's suggestion that there aren't significant and consistent differences between airlines. http://www.airlinequality.com/ http://www.airlinequality.com/ I don't know if this particular website is unbiased. But at least in my limited experience, the Japanese companies (JAL and ANA) and Swiss Air are much better than American Airlines, Continental and Canadian.
  - notahacker 16y ago
    Sure, Skytrax surveys can draw conclusions about average difference between airlines but they don't really account for the variance in flight quality, which is one of the chief factors that discourages people from paying a premium for a "quality" airline...there's no guarantee of even acceptable quality by paying more and most LCCs offer a safe and tolerable environment. Moreover, their sample is necessarily skewed away from the many people who use price as their main or only differentiator between airlines. A quick glance at the reviews section of the same site will show plenty of low ratings for "top" airlines and good ratings even for the likes of Ryanair (an airline that actively seeks negative publicity for its customer care in order to create the perception its tickets are cheaper than they actually are). I think its fair to say that few people fly for the intrinsic pleasure of being strapped into a seat in a narow metal tube, so "premium" airlines are mostly about minimising the displeasure. Other than seat comfort, arguably the main factors that can make a journey deeply unpleasant are largely uncorrelated with price. Unpleasant neighbours can happen anywhere, and many LCCs are statistically more likely to depart on time than their higher priced competition (their business model depends on it and they avoid busy hub airports) I considered creating an airline guide type site but shelved it because I'm just not convinced the consumer interest is there. Now if someone could make the process of booking _other_ aspects of a holiday more engaging and differentiated (forget price comparisons, wildly disparate customer reviews and grainy pictures in favour of something engaging, social and interactive) I think they'd make a mint.

jakarta 16y ago

I think air travel is destined to be a commodity for most people. Typically when we are flying we are trying to get to another place, where we will be away from work and spending a lot of money. Think the trip to Disney World. Or your European vacation. By saving money on the flight we will have more money to spend at our destination. I remember looking between Jet Blue and Continental for a flight to NYC recently. I had a great time with Jet Blue because they had TVs on board and I enjoyed the free wifi in their terminal when returning. But, price-wise Jet Blue would be $20 more than Continental. For me, the extra $20 I save could be used to eat out a couple more times in NYC so it was easy to forgo the in flight convenience for what I weighed as the greater use of my money. I think that also, the capital intensive nature of the business which yields low returns on investment, in the context of being in a highly regulated industry with unionized employees makes risk taking pretty limited. So, most of the players just copy each other which also helps re-enforce the commoditized product that they produce.

snitko 16y ago

I'm really sorry if it's a bit of an off-topic, but this thread seems like a good place to ask: anyone remembers this long and interesting multi-pages document (was posted on HN) about how prices on air tickets are calculated and how all this big system works? Can't find the link.

bockris 16y ago
http://www.demarcken.org/carl/papers/ITA-software-travel-complexity/img1.html http://www.demarcken.org/carl/papers/ITA-software-travel-com... from http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1479107 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1479107
- snitko 16y ago
  Thank you so much! I've been seeking this for months.

j-g-faustus 16y ago

I'd add a fourth factor: The fact that we travel more frequently. If you are flying something like once per decade flying might feel like an adventure in its own right and you may be willing to splurge a bit. But the more often you need to fly between A and B, the more similar it becomes to taking the bus, subway or a taxi, all of which already are commodities. I expect there is room for more "exclusive" experiences at a higher price, just like there is for groceries. Or as with limousine rental vs taxi. But fundamentally it's just transport - I'm flying because I need to get somewhere else quickly. If I were traveling for the experience I would probably go by motorcycle, train or boat instead.

Sukotto 16y ago
The fact that we travel more frequently. I travel far less often now than a few years ago. I feel the airports today are so flier hostile that I would rather just stay home. My last few vacations were spent within driving distance of my home. Even though I could easily afford the airfare. To put that into perspective... I used to fly a lot. A weekend trip across country would not have been an unusual thing for me. My wife and I flew to Japan several times a year to visit family... we just don't do that anymore. Now I'll fly on business if I have to. but that's pretty much it.
- j-g-faustus 16y ago
  > I travel far FAR less often now than a few years ago. So do I. I never found flying particularly pleasant, whether economy or business class, and after a decade of frequent business flying I pick other alternatives (including staying at home) whenever I can. But the US travel statistics http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_01_37.html http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_stat... seems to say that "people" still fly more - 350 bill. passenger miles in 1990, 530 bill. in 2000, 583 in 2008. Although it's down a bit from the peak years 2006-2007.
  - logic 16y ago
    I'm a visual kind of guy, so I pulled those travel stats into Google Docs: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AqzimL8-eYhYdDdkcC1fS3I1VkFsQWppUDhGWDVCM2c&hl=en https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AqzimL8-eYhYdDdkcC1... The chart sheet has a graph of total miles traveled. Compare to US population: http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=uspopulation&ctype=l&strail=false&nselm=h&met_y=population&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=state&tdim=true&tstart=331257600000&tunit=M&tlen=348&hl=en&dl=en http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=uspopulation&ctype=l...

akeefer 16y ago

One thing I think that this analysis misses is the fact that, for most people, you're not going to enjoy the flight no matter what. At that point most people shift from "maximize enjoyment" mode, where paying more for something better is more rational, to "minimize costs mode." If I'm going to spend 5 hours being uncomfortable whether I spend $300 or $500, what's the point in paying more? I think there's a certain enjoyment threshold below which something becomes "unpleasant," and moving from one state below that threshold to another state also below that threshold isn't as valuable as a similar state shift would be if the initial state happened to be above that threshold.

ghshephard 16y ago
"you're not going to enjoy the flight no matter what." Why aren't there carriers that try and create a comfortable and enjoyable flight experience? The article spent a great deal of time explaining that people pay on two factors, price and schedule. Attempting to differentiate on comfort doesn't win you more customers, therefore, the carriers aren't incented to create a comfortable flight experience. I've certainly had some really outstanding flight experiences, usually when being upgraded. But, I think I see what you are getting at - we're so far beyond that point right now, that subtle increases in comfort won't register - you need a quantum leap - something akin to moving into first class, to really capture people's imagination.
- abyssknight 16y ago
  Well, JetBlue kind of does this already. You get more leg room and infinite snacks/drinks on every flight. They also have live television for free, in flight.
  - joe_the_user 16y ago
    Virgin America has leather seats, AC plugs in every seat, $12 wifi, decent meals for $10 and lots of TV channels with LCD screens at every seat that go on all by themselves. They still packed us in like a sardines but, hey, I could have bought business class for an extra $100 at the gate (I bought the meal and used the plug, though my laptop was a bit big for the space). I personally found the experience like a bad sci-fi nightmare but it does seem they are trying for what some people might enjoy.

autarch 16y ago

I'm 6'7" (200 cm), so being stuck in a typical economy class seat is extremely uncomfortable for me. On my next long trip (from Minneapolis to Italy), I chose to spend about double for business class, because the prospect of 10 hours flying in economy literally terrifies me. When I fly to Taiwan I make a point of traveling on Eva (a Taiwanese airline) which has a class between economy & business (like Virgin). It's well worth the extra cost for a 12 hour flight. I would gladly pay a premium for exit row or galley seats with more legroom. I still don't understand why airlines don't consistently sell these seats in advance. In years when I'm flying a lot, I always stick with the same airline. Getting elite status gives you free upgrades and first crack at some of the more comfortable seats. All of which is to say that price & schedule are not really my #1 considerations.

detst 16y ago
I haven't flown too many different airlines recently but some do sell exit-row seats in advance and usually don't sell them all so asking as soon as you get to the gate can get one for free. It's one of those things where being polite and directly asking for something can go a long way.
- autarch 16y ago
  Delta, which has most of the gates in Minneapolis, does not sell exit row in advance, and I wouldn't count on getting it when I'm going to be flying for 10 hours to Italy. Northwest would sell the exit row seats in advance, but unless you had elite status, you could only purchase them 24 hours in advance. This was great when I had elite status, but sucked otherwise. I would gladly pay $100+ for exit row if I could get it when I book my ticket.
mcargian 16y ago
Both United and Jetblue have extra legroom economy sections available for purchase by anyone well in advance. I think this shows that the original article is incorrect in its assumption that given more product differentiation people will chose an alternate airline. If more people were willing to pay for extra legroom then more airlines would offer these "economy plus" sections. For me, I'll stick to flying one airline, keeping my elite status which almost always guarantees me an upgrade to first class.

ronnier 16y ago

I've traveled to about 30 countries within Africa, Asia, Middle East, Europe, Central America and a lot of travel within the US. Of course there have been hiccups along the way, but overall it's been pleasant and I just don't share the feelings with others that air travel is a horrible experience. I believe my point of view stems from the happiness of being able to travel around the world so cheaply (even free with airline miles). This wasn't even possible until modern times and it is easy to take for granted.

sqrt17 16y ago

One thing that always bugged me about air travel in the US is the time you spend on the ground, standing in queues, pulling your shoes off, putting them back on again. You'll say that this is for better security. It's not an effective way to achieve better security. In Europe, queues are shorter and people only have to remove their shoes when there's a reason for it. Europe has not exploded yet - put it down to behavioral profiling, making good use of extant security measures and (for the most part) having enough personnel to avoid the building up of queues. To pick the restaurant analogy, it has the same effect on the airlines as it would for a restaurant to have pseudo-policemen sit in front of their door and bully everyone, building up a long queue.

mmt 16y ago
You'll say that this is for better security. I doubt many here on HN would say that. It makes for better theater perhaps, but, really, it's just a way to bolster that theater industry. Personally, I don't think the feds are very good at entertaining. It's certainly made flying between Southern California and the Bay Area take long enough that driving doesn't seem as preposterous an alternative, especially for a last-minute trip. High-speed rail, with a 3-hour travel time would even be comparable, until, of course, somebody tries to bring exploding shoes on board or realizes that downtown LA isn't likely to host a convenient car rental facility any time soon.
- vl 16y ago
  This winter I took train from Seattle to Vancouver, BC. There was a security check before boarding the train, but it was much much faster than airport. Train was patrolled by assault rifle-armed guards in bullet-proof vests, some had dogs. I still trying to imagine what is the threat profile they were trying to respond to.
  - mmt 16y ago
    How long did the trip end up taking, and how much did it cost? I'm curious if there's much, if any, time savings versus driving[1]. [1] With a highly variable border crossing time if not all passengers hold a NEXUS card

dotBen 16y ago

Interesting post, but what was missed is that corporate travel accounts for a large degree of airline ticket spend - and those values (price and schedule) are that BigCo business cares about. The post was written from the perspective of the flyer also being the purchaser (either leisure or small business travel) but when tickets are purchased for you, or you have to purchase within a financial policy all that it comes down to is price (and to some extent, schedule). The CFO doesn't care whether AirlineX has more comfortable seats than ArlineZ and isn't going to authorize purchases because of it.

dartland 16y ago
Very true, although most companies that have corporate contracts do so for multiple major airlines, so there still is choice. Also, corporate contracts have much more influence for international travel, they aren't nearly as meaningful for domestic travel.

latch 16y ago

seatguru.com addresses some of this already. Although, the limited extra info they provide doesn't often help to differentiate one flight from the other.

gyardley 16y ago

This post mentions loyalty programs for frequent flyers, but it completely underestimates their importance. The difference between business class and coach is so stark, just a reasonable chance at an upgrade completely decommoditizes the inventory. Because of this, the most profitable customers certainly aren't basing their decisions solely on price. Myself, I always fly American, not because the coach experience is any better but because I've got about a one-in-four chance of getting upgraded to business class. Just a couple of days ago I got upgraded on my redeye back from SFO - well worth the $35 or so extra I paid for the seat vs. the equivalent flight on a competing airline. Slept like a baby, and I certainly couldn't have done that back in steerage.

jballanc 16y ago

How much will I pay for SFO to NYC? Well, that depends...is it more than two weeks out? Less than two weeks out? Is it a popular day to travel? Convenient route? Who else is flying? So many factors that make it difficult to know when to buy and what to expect to pay... For example, something I've noticed recently: the SFO to NYC red-eye will be cheaper than the evening flights up until about 3-5 weeks before the day of travel. Then, the red-eye will suddenly jump to almost double the price of the other tickets. All I can figure is that more than 3-5 weeks out, most of the people buying tickets are tourists, and tourists tend to not like taking red-eyes. Once you get inside the 3-5 week window, that buying pattern switches to primarily business travelers. For a business traveler, the red-eye means still getting in a full day of work before leaving, so they tend to favor that schedule. The fact that the price fluctuates so rapidly, and depends more on the buying patterns of other consumers than on the product itself, makes plane tickets look an awful lot like a futures market! And you know what else is sold on futures markets? ...commodities.

aneth 16y ago

I buy Southwest always for one reason: no change fees. Every dollar I spend is applicable toward another fare if I don't go or want to change times. I spend more money sometimes, less money others, but always have confidence I'm not throwing money away or being nickel and dimed. Every single other airline focuses on profitability through obscurity and I simply can't stand that.

loewenskind 16y ago

You want to know what's really ruining air travel? Security. With e.g. TSA and their "exactly the wrong person for the job" approach to staffing, pricing scams (ever notice that right after you get out of the security check line, where they made you pour out your water, there is a store selling normal water for 5x the normal price?), etc., etc. the price for an airline ticket is basically asking you how much you'd be willing to pay to get gang raped. I hate flying now, and to the US most of all. But I have a solution to fix all the problems (well, it would still be a commodity...): When you get to the airport, someone takes your ticket and gasses you. You wake up in your destination (or occasionally a totally random place, but that would still be better than what it's like now. Especially since you slept through it). That would solve everyone's problem. Who cares about seats, you can just make bays to stack the sleeping people in. You can carry more people. You can have a vastly smaller staff, pretty much just a pilot and a loading/unloading crew. For security you can do any check you need to but most will be unnecessary since the people wont be conscious.