10 ms·

Here is a presentation[1] of one of the maximum security prisons in Norway. If you treat people better you will have lower rates of reincarceration[2]. In essen

by tyfon 9y ago

Here is a presentation[1] of one of the maximum security prisons in Norway. If you treat people better you will have lower rates of reincarceration[2]. In essence, they are trying to create "good neighbors" out of the prisoners. And we are certainly not a homogeneous society that many use as an argument that this would not work elsewhere. In my city, Drammen, a bit outside of Oslo, about 1/3 of the population are not native Norwegians and there are over 100 nationalities here. My daughters school has over 30 nationalities. (And I don't think this is a bad thing) [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB037gVIpJc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB037gVIpJc [2]http://www.businessinsider.com/why-norways-prison-system-is-so-successful-2014-12?r=US&IR=T&IR=T http://www.businessinsider.com/why-norways-prison-system-is-...

wallace_f 9y ago
A bit of a tangent, but evidence such as this makes me fear the trend towards greater centralization and globalization of powers. In other words, it's not just that there are obvious benefits to competition, it's probably true that we need it to progress.
FreekNortier 9y ago
Prisons like that are only possible in countries with a high percentage of tax paying citizens as is the case in Norway. Here in Africa there is simply no money for that.
- b0rsuk 9y ago
  I don't mean to sound patronizing and teach you about your own continent, but I heard the main problem with Africa is not lack of money. It's corruption. Africa has lots of space and natural resources. Those resources are mined, extracted and sold but profits go to a small caste of wealthy warlords and/or corrupt leaders. And yes the climate is harsh. Especially the heat literally makes thinking hard. There was a study about government clerks in USA, their work effectiveness shot up by 20% once they got air conditioning. In a way Africa is similar to Russian Federation. Both are vast, both have bad climate and both have lots of natural resources. Both are hamstrung by corruption.
  - nerdponx 9y ago
    It's like people didn't read your disclaimer before downvoting. This indeed is the stereotype we hear about Africa (and it's certainly true in the USA where the stereotype flourishes). I would love to see some of this information confirmed or repudiated.
    - tyingq 9y ago
      Transparency.org has a methodology for measuring it by country. Heat map at the top, but you can find the detailed stats too. https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_perceptions_index_2016 https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_percept...
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - matt4077 9y ago
      You can't just add a disclaimer to absolve yourself of what you're about to say.
  - rrauenza 9y ago
    Do you have a better pointer to that study about air conditioning? I'd like to read more.
    - b0rsuk 9y ago
      This is a better pointer (not necessarily a good one, but it makes it easier to google for): http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39735802 http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39735802 (The article was linked from Hacker News). From the article: '''The boom in air conditioning is good news for many reasons. Studies show that it lowers mortality during heat waves. Heat makes prison inmates fractious - air conditioning pays for itself by reducing fights. When the temperature exceeds 21C or 22C in exam halls, students start to score lower in maths tests. In offices, air conditioning makes us more productive: according to one early study, it made US government typists do 24% more work. Economists have since confirmed that relationship between productivity and keeping cool.'''
- vidarh 9y ago
  Why do you assume they'll be more expensive? Not least because reduced reincarceration rates translates to fewer people in prison where they cost the state a lot of money, when they could be out and participating in growing the economy.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
SeanDav 9y ago
OT: > "If you treat people better you will have lower rates of reincarnation" I think the Buddhists will be very disappointed to hear that... I believe you meant "reincarceration" (We know you meant that!)
- tyfon 9y ago
  Obviously! :) My auto correct feature has been a bit overzealous here and English is not my 1st language. Updated the post you referenced.
- jfaucett 9y ago
  > I think Buddhists will be very disappointed... Actually, Buddhists would be very happy indeed, no reincarnation means nirvana has been reached :)
  - SomeStupidPoint 9y ago
    There's actually a few Buddhist sects that would be aptly summarized as "Treat people better so there are fewer reincarnations."
HalfwayToDice 9y ago
Norwegian and USA societies are vastly different. There is absolutely no reason that something that works in one country will work in the other. For instance, look at the gun ownership/gun crime rates. I want to add another comment, which is slightly more difficult. You say that your daughters school "has over 30 nationalities, and that it's not a bad thing". I admire you for this. BUT I don't think it's representative of how Norwegian society is, judging from my 6 months working in Oslo.
- ejolto 9y ago
  > For instance, look at the gun ownership/gun crime rates. Could you expand on this? Norway ranks at 6th place in number of guns per 100 inhabitants and 39th in number of firearm-related deaths per 100,000 population per year. The US ranks 1st and 11th respectively, having 3.6 times the number of guns per 100 people and 6 times the number of firearm-related deaths per 100,000 people compared to Norway. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-r...
  - HalfwayToDice 9y ago
    According to those statistics, Japan has a higher gun crime rate than the USA, looking at "Firearm-related deaths per gun per year". My opinion is that those statistics are not very useful.
    - zimpenfish 9y ago
      I don't know how Wikipedia shows that - following the links at the bottom gives 33599 US deaths in 2014 with 270-310M guns for ratios of 0.0001244 - 0.0001084 deaths per gun. For Japan in 2014, 6 deaths in 2014 with 710K guns for a ratio of 0.0000085 deaths per gun. Double-checking, the US has 5600 x more deaths with 380-435 x more guns for a ratio of 12-14 more deaths per gun.
- mrow84 9y ago
  > Norwegian and USA societies are vastly different. There is absolutely no reason that something that works in one country will work in the other. Can you elaborate on which social differences you think might make it difficult or impossible to implement a Norwegian-style justice system in the USA?
rayiner 9y ago
86% of Norway is ethnically Norwegian. Then there are the folks from Sweden, etc. Suffice it to say Norway is highly homogenous.
- tyfon 9y ago
  While seen as a whole this might be true, but if you look at the major cities the story is very different. The latest statistic from Oslo[1] shows that 32.8% are immigrants and 40% of these are from Europe. So between 15-20% of Oslo are "non-western" immigrants which I think is what you are aiming for. I don't know what counts as homogeneous and not, but if you walk around in Oslo you see a lot more colours than white :) [1] https://www.oslo.kommune.no/politikk-og-administrasjon/statistikk/befolkning/landbakgrunn/ https://www.oslo.kommune.no/politikk-og-administrasjon/stati...
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- splitrocket 9y ago
  I've never quite understood this argument. Why does ethnic homogeny matter?
  - hood_syntax 9y ago
    Cultural bonds tend to be stronger. I don't necessarily buy the arguments that follow from that premise but I do think there's some truth to that statement, especially because ethnic heterogeneity(sp?) tends to go hand in hand with immigration and hence mixing of cultures. I like the diversity of cultures that immigration brings, but some people like feeling as though they are part of a united whole.
    - vilmosi 9y ago
      Humans are tribal though, as in maximum 200 people. Everyone else is an "outsider". Everything above that number is the treated the same, regardless of ethnicity, as a foreigner. You can't seriously suggest millions of people think the same because of their genetic markup.
yodsanklai 9y ago
Sadly, I have the feeling that the idea of more humane prisons is widely unpopular.
- eeZah7Ux 9y ago
  ...in US.
  - beepboopbeep 9y ago
    Only because we only ever talk about "Criminals" and "Prisoners" or "Offenders". Never by name, always by number. We dehumanize them and the system has been ignored because of it.
  - yodsanklai 9y ago
    Not only. I live in France and while it's always difficult to really grasp public opinion, I'm pretty sure a large proportion of my fellow citizens thinks our prison aren't cruel enough. Actually, according to some poll, a majority even wishes death penalty were reinstated. Not quite the same thing, but still...
alexasmyths 9y ago
That's all fine and good and I appreciate the thoughtfulness of the Scandinavians about this. But there's a huge component missing to this - and that is the rights of the victims. There are quite a number of people who have 'committed a crime' and really are at no risk of re-offending in the first place. A Montreal doctor, in a fit of fury, murdered his wife and children. I believe - with some basic help and observation, it's entirely unlikely he'd do such a thing again. I don't think for a second that 'prison' or even the 'threat of prison' factors into his likelihood of recitivism. So the 're-integration' thing to do for this doctor would just be a little time in a psych/hospital, then re-integration and observation/checking-in on him. But what about the wife? The kids that were murdered? What about their rights as victims? If you 'slander' someone - you might have to pay them $100K. But if you 'murder' them - there's nobody to pay? This is a real issue - and more real in Scandinavia. I have a distant relative who is Danish - a rough and tumble guy who hangs out with bikers. Over at his place for dinner one day (in Denmark) - the guy sitting beside me (who seemed rather normal if a tiny bit thuggish) - was a murderer. He spent four years in jail for murdering someone, and was now in a 'half way house' for a couple of years. That's it. I don't doubt that maybe his situation is optimized for 'non recidivism' - but there are moral questions with this. Four years in a really nice jail - with Internet, a 'instrument' room with instruments, a goddam mixing panel to make tracks (!), a gym, half decent food - etc. - is just wrong. Imagine if your mother/family member was ruthlessly murdered by her landlord. He does four years in an easy prison. No worries. His property, holdings intact. He comes back as if it didn't happen, with a little bit of 'checking in' form the government? We cannot think of crime just as a matter of 'recidivism rates' - yes - those are important - but the moral implications are equally as important.
- neilparikh 9y ago
  Is how much "justice" the victim really equally important to the recidivism rates? I don't think it is. If one treatment method is "more unjust" towards the victim, but it leads to a lower recidivism rate, I think we should use that one. For example, in the case of murder, I think it's obvious that it's in society's best interest to optimize the justice system around reducing the murder rate as a whole, not how much "justice" the victim receives. Now, if there's 2 methods that (somehow) lead to the same recidivism rate, then we can consider the one that is "more just" towards the victim, but even then, I'm not 100% sure. Note: I put justice in quotes not because I'm trying to minimize it (it's definitely that has to be considered, or people will lose faith in the system), but because it's an ill-defined term right now.

by tyfon 9y ago

wallace_f 9y ago

A bit of a tangent, but evidence such as this makes me fear the trend towards greater centralization and globalization of powers. In other words, it's not just that there are obvious benefits to competition, it's probably true that we need it to progress.

FreekNortier 9y ago

Prisons like that are only possible in countries with a high percentage of tax paying citizens as is the case in Norway. Here in Africa there is simply no money for that.

b0rsuk 9y ago
I don't mean to sound patronizing and teach you about your own continent, but I heard the main problem with Africa is not lack of money. It's corruption. Africa has lots of space and natural resources. Those resources are mined, extracted and sold but profits go to a small caste of wealthy warlords and/or corrupt leaders. And yes the climate is harsh. Especially the heat literally makes thinking hard. There was a study about government clerks in USA, their work effectiveness shot up by 20% once they got air conditioning. In a way Africa is similar to Russian Federation. Both are vast, both have bad climate and both have lots of natural resources. Both are hamstrung by corruption.
- nerdponx 9y ago
  It's like people didn't read your disclaimer before downvoting. This indeed is the stereotype we hear about Africa (and it's certainly true in the USA where the stereotype flourishes). I would love to see some of this information confirmed or repudiated.
  - tyingq 9y ago
    Transparency.org has a methodology for measuring it by country. Heat map at the top, but you can find the detailed stats too. https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_perceptions_index_2016 https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_percept...
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - matt4077 9y ago
    You can't just add a disclaimer to absolve yourself of what you're about to say.
- rrauenza 9y ago
  Do you have a better pointer to that study about air conditioning? I'd like to read more.
  - b0rsuk 9y ago
    This is a better pointer (not necessarily a good one, but it makes it easier to google for): http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39735802 http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39735802 (The article was linked from Hacker News). From the article: '''The boom in air conditioning is good news for many reasons. Studies show that it lowers mortality during heat waves. Heat makes prison inmates fractious - air conditioning pays for itself by reducing fights. When the temperature exceeds 21C or 22C in exam halls, students start to score lower in maths tests. In offices, air conditioning makes us more productive: according to one early study, it made US government typists do 24% more work. Economists have since confirmed that relationship between productivity and keeping cool.'''
vidarh 9y ago
Why do you assume they'll be more expensive? Not least because reduced reincarceration rates translates to fewer people in prison where they cost the state a lot of money, when they could be out and participating in growing the economy.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

SeanDav 9y ago

OT: > "If you treat people better you will have lower rates of reincarnation" I think the Buddhists will be very disappointed to hear that... I believe you meant "reincarceration" (We know you meant that!)

tyfon 9y ago
Obviously! :) My auto correct feature has been a bit overzealous here and English is not my 1st language. Updated the post you referenced.
jfaucett 9y ago
> I think Buddhists will be very disappointed... Actually, Buddhists would be very happy indeed, no reincarnation means nirvana has been reached :)
- SomeStupidPoint 9y ago
  There's actually a few Buddhist sects that would be aptly summarized as "Treat people better so there are fewer reincarnations."

HalfwayToDice 9y ago

Norwegian and USA societies are vastly different. There is absolutely no reason that something that works in one country will work in the other. For instance, look at the gun ownership/gun crime rates. I want to add another comment, which is slightly more difficult. You say that your daughters school "has over 30 nationalities, and that it's not a bad thing". I admire you for this. BUT I don't think it's representative of how Norwegian society is, judging from my 6 months working in Oslo.

ejolto 9y ago
> For instance, look at the gun ownership/gun crime rates. Could you expand on this? Norway ranks at 6th place in number of guns per 100 inhabitants and 39th in number of firearm-related deaths per 100,000 population per year. The US ranks 1st and 11th respectively, having 3.6 times the number of guns per 100 people and 6 times the number of firearm-related deaths per 100,000 people compared to Norway. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-r...
- HalfwayToDice 9y ago
  According to those statistics, Japan has a higher gun crime rate than the USA, looking at "Firearm-related deaths per gun per year". My opinion is that those statistics are not very useful.
  - zimpenfish 9y ago
    I don't know how Wikipedia shows that - following the links at the bottom gives 33599 US deaths in 2014 with 270-310M guns for ratios of 0.0001244 - 0.0001084 deaths per gun. For Japan in 2014, 6 deaths in 2014 with 710K guns for a ratio of 0.0000085 deaths per gun. Double-checking, the US has 5600 x more deaths with 380-435 x more guns for a ratio of 12-14 more deaths per gun.
mrow84 9y ago
> Norwegian and USA societies are vastly different. There is absolutely no reason that something that works in one country will work in the other. Can you elaborate on which social differences you think might make it difficult or impossible to implement a Norwegian-style justice system in the USA?

rayiner 9y ago

86% of Norway is ethnically Norwegian. Then there are the folks from Sweden, etc. Suffice it to say Norway is highly homogenous.

tyfon 9y ago
While seen as a whole this might be true, but if you look at the major cities the story is very different. The latest statistic from Oslo[1] shows that 32.8% are immigrants and 40% of these are from Europe. So between 15-20% of Oslo are "non-western" immigrants which I think is what you are aiming for. I don't know what counts as homogeneous and not, but if you walk around in Oslo you see a lot more colours than white :) [1] https://www.oslo.kommune.no/politikk-og-administrasjon/statistikk/befolkning/landbakgrunn/ https://www.oslo.kommune.no/politikk-og-administrasjon/stati...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
splitrocket 9y ago
I've never quite understood this argument. Why does ethnic homogeny matter?
- hood_syntax 9y ago
  Cultural bonds tend to be stronger. I don't necessarily buy the arguments that follow from that premise but I do think there's some truth to that statement, especially because ethnic heterogeneity(sp?) tends to go hand in hand with immigration and hence mixing of cultures. I like the diversity of cultures that immigration brings, but some people like feeling as though they are part of a united whole.
  - vilmosi 9y ago
    Humans are tribal though, as in maximum 200 people. Everyone else is an "outsider". Everything above that number is the treated the same, regardless of ethnicity, as a foreigner. You can't seriously suggest millions of people think the same because of their genetic markup.

yodsanklai 9y ago

Sadly, I have the feeling that the idea of more humane prisons is widely unpopular.

eeZah7Ux 9y ago
...in US.
- beepboopbeep 9y ago
  Only because we only ever talk about "Criminals" and "Prisoners" or "Offenders". Never by name, always by number. We dehumanize them and the system has been ignored because of it.
- yodsanklai 9y ago
  Not only. I live in France and while it's always difficult to really grasp public opinion, I'm pretty sure a large proportion of my fellow citizens thinks our prison aren't cruel enough. Actually, according to some poll, a majority even wishes death penalty were reinstated. Not quite the same thing, but still...

alexasmyths 9y ago

That's all fine and good and I appreciate the thoughtfulness of the Scandinavians about this. But there's a huge component missing to this - and that is the rights of the victims. There are quite a number of people who have 'committed a crime' and really are at no risk of re-offending in the first place. A Montreal doctor, in a fit of fury, murdered his wife and children. I believe - with some basic help and observation, it's entirely unlikely he'd do such a thing again. I don't think for a second that 'prison' or even the 'threat of prison' factors into his likelihood of recitivism. So the 're-integration' thing to do for this doctor would just be a little time in a psych/hospital, then re-integration and observation/checking-in on him. But what about the wife? The kids that were murdered? What about their rights as victims? If you 'slander' someone - you might have to pay them $100K. But if you 'murder' them - there's nobody to pay? This is a real issue - and more real in Scandinavia. I have a distant relative who is Danish - a rough and tumble guy who hangs out with bikers. Over at his place for dinner one day (in Denmark) - the guy sitting beside me (who seemed rather normal if a tiny bit thuggish) - was a murderer. He spent four years in jail for murdering someone, and was now in a 'half way house' for a couple of years. That's it. I don't doubt that maybe his situation is optimized for 'non recidivism' - but there are moral questions with this. Four years in a really nice jail - with Internet, a 'instrument' room with instruments, a goddam mixing panel to make tracks (!), a gym, half decent food - etc. - is just wrong. Imagine if your mother/family member was ruthlessly murdered by her landlord. He does four years in an easy prison. No worries. His property, holdings intact. He comes back as if it didn't happen, with a little bit of 'checking in' form the government? We cannot think of crime just as a matter of 'recidivism rates' - yes - those are important - but the moral implications are equally as important.

neilparikh 9y ago
Is how much "justice" the victim really equally important to the recidivism rates? I don't think it is. If one treatment method is "more unjust" towards the victim, but it leads to a lower recidivism rate, I think we should use that one. For example, in the case of murder, I think it's obvious that it's in society's best interest to optimize the justice system around reducing the murder rate as a whole, not how much "justice" the victim receives. Now, if there's 2 methods that (somehow) lead to the same recidivism rate, then we can consider the one that is "more just" towards the victim, but even then, I'm not 100% sure. Note: I put justice in quotes not because I'm trying to minimize it (it's definitely that has to be considered, or people will lose faith in the system), but because it's an ill-defined term right now.