15 ms·

iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

543 points by panarky 9y ago

dvcrn 9y ago
I hate this. I have a ton of wifi hotspots setup in the city, some of them require authentication, some of them don't. I leave work, mount my phone on my bike, "turn off" WiFi and cycle before realizing that nothing (like maps) is updating because I connected to a wifi point that needs authentication, or a point that is now far away because I already cycled by. While cycling, I reach to my phone and switch it "off" again just to be again connected to some other access point at the next crossing. I really hope for a setting in the next version so that off means off again.
- r00fus 9y ago
  Can't you just turn off wifi's promiscuous mode? I forget all wifi points except for any place I regularly go. LTE is good enough for cafes and the like.
  - rkangel 9y ago
    > I have a ton of wifi hotspots setup in the city Presumably they are cycling past places they visit.
- new299 9y ago
  Right, I feel like this is a bigger issue than the privacy angle too. For privacy/security, I feel like it's only really going to help to turn off all radios (airplane mode).
  - gervase 9y ago
    Just so you know, this feature change also affects airplane mode; that is, when you turn on airplane mode, only the cellular modem turns off. The WiFi and Bluetooth radios remain on if they're currently connected to something, only turning off completely if not connected.
    - new299 9y ago
      ok, that seems somewhat confusing having googled it [1]. But I guess at least the UI shows that Wifi and Bluetooth are on. I assume that if after activating airplane mode you disconnect bluetooth and wifi from the control center, it really does turn all radios off... [1] http://www.redmondpie.com/new-in-ios-11-airplane-mode-no-longer-turns-off-wifi-or-bluetooth-automatically/ http://www.redmondpie.com/new-in-ios-11-airplane-mode-no-lon...
- clouddrover 9y ago
  The workaround I use is to add Settings to the taskbar. If you force-press Settings it pops up a menu which allows you to get to the WiFi section directly. Turning off WiFi in Settings turns it off (you'll see the WiFi icon has a line through it in Control Centre).
  - pdimitar 9y ago
    Already doing this, it's basically half a second more work and I can't for the life of me understand why the people make so much drama about the new state of affairs.
- jwong_ 9y ago
  If you want to be off wifi why not just fully turn it off? It seems like you want it to be off for a long time. Going into settings to turn off the radio doesn't seem to be hugely laborious if you really do want it off for the entire ride.
  - cassowary 9y ago
    That's a really silly reply. There's nothing in the UI that tells me turning Wifi off in the control centre has a different meaning today than it had last week. It's not at all clear that turning it off in the Settings app will have a different result. Literally. You're obliging us to read someone's mind. Moreover, going to the Settings app is laborious. There's a lot of stuff there. When you open it, you don't always "start from the start", so that pulling it up requires working out where it is in the app you are in order to navigate appropriately. Instead of focusing on the task of disabling wifi and going somewhere, you have to focus on the task of navigating an app. And also if you have a phone that wasn't bought yesterday, it will probably close some other app you were running because it's run out of RAM. All so that some weird usecase I can't understand is available. This fellow is the only person who's described a usecase for disconnecting from wifi networks while leaving wifi on, insofar as leaving the radio on won't have upsetting results for him. But the feature doesn't work for him. For me, sometimes I need my battery to last all day not just till dinner. I want the radio off. I can't think of a non-technical/non-exceptional use that is benefited by this feature. (NB. I quite like the idea that my wifi will spontaneously turn back on again when the battery is charged adequately, or at 5am or some such. It would've saved my data on numerous occasions. But that's a different feature that hasn't been implemented.)
  - fehrm 9y ago
    That is what he did. It is a toggle. It is not a feature to force everyone to go to settings and click a kit more times. It is silly to claim that this is fine.
  - Ensorceled 9y ago
    The entire point is they thought they did turn it off. Are you being deliberately obtuse?
kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
As opposed to Google's dark patterns that make maps unusable with location tracking off.
- mannykannot 9y ago
  No, not "as opposed to." This is a completely bogus line of argument, even if the "opposing" behavior is equally bad.
- panarky 9y ago
  Google Maps is perfectly usable with location turned off. I often use it this way just to stretch the battery.
  - dingo_bat 9y ago
    He means location tracking, not location. If you turn off location tracking in settings, maps will keep bugging you. Even though it just needs location at that time and it is enabled, but you must allow Google to create a fucking timeline of you all the time otherwise maps will keep nagging you.
paloaltokid 9y ago
Yes, this was a big surprise in iOS 11. I can understand the appeal of making it work this way, but I wish it was implemented as a parallel set of options. Or at least make it configurable in settings of how it should work. I feel the same way about the "Do Not Disturb While Driving" feature. I like the feature a lot, and I've been using it, but I wish it was a parallel feature as well. My "Do Not Disturb" patterns are different in the car from when I'm not and I'd like to be able to configure it as such.
- zwily 9y ago
  I wish the “Do Not Disturb While Driving” would re-enable itself after the car starts moving again. I lie and tell it I’m not driving all the time at a light to select the next podcast.
  - lucaspiller 9y ago
    Yeah this is a bit of a weird feature. I understand it’s a kind of mental barrier to prevent you using your phone while driving, but it’s weird you can’t keep it on and still use your phone - especially when you aren’t moving as you say.
    - theobon 9y ago
      Every jurisdiction I'm aware of considers using your phone while stopped at a red light the same as while driving. Apple enabling this behaviour within a feature specifically designed to support safe driving laws would be illogical.
UnoriginalGuy 9y ago
Well this finally explains why Bluetooth kept re-enabling itself seemingly at random after I turned it off in iOS 11... I agree with the EFF on this one, at no time was any of how this works communicated, particularly not the "turns back on at 5 am" quirk. These features aren't inherently bad, but lack of communication is bad.
- MBCook 9y ago
  See my other post in this thread, it is communicated. It’s definitely settle. But it is there.
  - jackvalentine 9y ago
    If that counts as communicating changes, it seems a bit Hitchhiker's to me. No user should be expected to notice and figure out the changed behavior for something they do that takes half a second, based on that 'communication'. > “But the plans were on display…” > “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.” > “That’s the display department.” > “With a flashlight.” > “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.” > “So had the stairs.” > “But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?” > “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”
    - MBCook 9y ago
      I meant that the buttons communicate what they do, not the Apple effectively communicated that they changed what they do. That’s all.
      - jackvalentine 9y ago
        I would still disagree with that, but I suppose we’re getting in to circular opinion waste of time territory now...
TempleOS 9y ago
cia nigger in denial
Terretta 9y ago
> In an attempt to keep you connected to Apple devices and services, iOS 11 compromises users' security. No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan. (And the very real frustration when things don’t work they expect to work, and they don’t know why.) Meanwhile, the security motivated user will figure out she can 3D Touch or go into settings and meet her more sophisticated use cases. Consider the normal user’s scenarios and do the math. This saves more users from more loss.
- astronautjones 9y ago
  This is such a backwards approach to security in an age where the average user is only less and less informed
- new299 9y ago
  I just spent a couple of minutes trying to 3D touch to properly disable wifi, then googling how to do this with 3d touch and came up empty. Either it doesn't work that way, or it's well hidden and appears not great in terms of UX. Overall, I agree with you though. I'm personally not clear on the utility of turning off just wifi or just bluetooth. I assume (hope) airplane mode turns everything off. But in any other scenario you're still leaking location and other information.
  - mattacular 9y ago
    There is no way to 3D touch the bluetooth and wireless radios all the way off in iOS11. You have to manually go all the way into settings.app now which takes quite a bit more effort not to mention longer than the old control center
    - nkristoffersen 9y ago
      You can 3D Touch the settings app which provides shortcuts to both bluetooth settings and wifi settings.
rileytg 9y ago
my airpods disconnect when i turn bluetooth off from control center. very weird that’s not an exception...
- freehunter 9y ago
  So Bluetooth devices disconnect when you hit the button to disconnect Bluetooth devices?
  - vacri 9y ago
    From The Fine Article: > Location Services is still enabled, Apple devices (like Apple Watch and Pencil) stay connected, and services such as Handoff and Instant Hotspot stay on. > The only way to turn off the Wi-Fi and Bluetooth radios... The GP is right that it's weird that Apple Watch stays connected when you ask for a disconnect, but Apple Earbuds do not. TFA wasn't only talking about the wifi radio.
- syncsynchalt 9y ago
  They're bluetooth devices. I'm not sure what your expectation is?
  - CodeWriter23 9y ago
    I would expect BT devices to be turned off. BUT Apple’s rationale for faux turning off in control center is so they can maintain Apple services, so I would expect EarPods to stay on under their new ridiculous regime of “Off means On”.
- Operyl 9y ago
  They probably made this exception because unlike the pencil or watch, this is something that “takes control” of a system component (your audio output). It likely made more sense to disconnect them in this case.
api_or_ipa 9y ago
Not sure if this is new in the ios world, but I discovered this 'feature' in Android years ago. Turns out Beacon Requests are very important to location services, especially where gps doesn't work (like in any indoor location).
Perceptes 9y ago
This has bugged me too since upgrading to iOS 11. I understand the motivation for the change, but it was not necessary to make the UI misleading. It should very clearly indicate between "off" and "off-ish," and allow switching to a true off state, perhaps by long-pressing the icon to get additional options, like how several other control center panels work.
- MBCook 9y ago
  The messages the display at the top of the screen when you tap the icons were the labels below the icons if you expand the panel clearly show whether the radios are off or just disconnected.
  - joombaga 9y ago
    The message says "disconnected", it doesn't say anything about the power state. If I didn't know, it wouldn't occur to me that "off" and "disconnected" are distinct states, especially since this differs from the previous behavior of the same button.
  - hesarenu 9y ago
    If you are explaining too much then it would mean that its not communicated properly.
  - josteink 9y ago
    > clearly show whether the radios are off or just disconnected. I guess you and most of the rest of the planet have very different opinion about what "clearly" means then, otherwise we woulnd't be having this discussion now.
  - Ensorceled 9y ago
    There is a rule in UX Design that if you have to explain the UX to people it’s a bad UX.
userbinator 9y ago
In other words, the WiFi actually has 3 states: Off, Idle/disassociated/disconnected, and Connected/Associated. Most people have experienced all 3 states, but it seems Apple is under the impression that users are too stupid to know the difference between them... The Wi-Fi will turn back full-on if you drive or walk to a new location. And both Wi-Fi and Bluetooth will turn back on at 5:00 AM. This is not clearly explained to users, nor left to them to choose, which makes security-aware users vulnerable as well. Why 5:00 AM, and why only WiFi when location changes (and how far must the location change? That is not mentioned even on the Apple support page)? This set of conditions reminds me of the decisions taken by aircraft automation systems --- read how the Boeing autothrottle works, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autothrottle#Usage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autothrottle#Usage Of course, the majority of iOS users have nowhere near that ability to memorise how this "automatic wireless control" works, so Apple doesn't bother to make the explanation prominent; which brings me to the next point: Apple products aren't designed for you. They're designed for the user Apple wants, and by not giving any choices to change the behaviour, Apple is gradually "creating an average user" by forcing them into compliance and causing the rest to a different platform. To continue the analogy, Apple's design has all the complexity of aircraft automation, and works well for the ideal use case, but none of the transparency and predictability, nor the ability to turn it all off and "fly manually" when it fails. Also, the original item on HN about this, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15297387 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15297387 , was rather ironically accompanied by this one submitted around roughly the same time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15299165 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15299165 The security aspect is not just a theoretical one.
- jamesrcole 9y ago
  [EDIT: to all the people downvoting this, what do you think is incorrect about either of the two points I made?] > the WiFi actually has 3 states: ... Most people have experienced all 3 states, but it seems Apple is under the impression that users are too stupid to know the difference between them. ... Of course, the majority of iOS users have nowhere near that ability to memorise how this "automatic wireleas control" works Hypocrisy much? It sounds like you're trying to seize any opportunity you can to bash Apple.
- 9y ago
raimue 9y ago
It is interesting to see how this is now suddenly perceived as an issue with iOS 11, while Android already introduced the same behavior with 4.3 in 2013. The "off" setting these days only indicates that the device will not associate with any WiFi network, but it keeps the radio on for location services. Without commenting whether this is actually bad for security, articles on the matter should point out that Android phones are doing the same to raise awareness. Edit: iOS enables WiFi on switching location, but re-enabling WiFi based on known locations is only a new feature of Android 8 Oreo. So for most Android users WiFi will at least not be turned back on automatically yet.
- davidcbc 9y ago
  That's not the iOS behavior. Toggling "off" just disconnects you from your current network, you will still connect to the next known network you come in contact with.
- vmarsy 9y ago
  In an article[1] about it, it clearly says you can disable it : >> This isn't going to sit well with everyone, and thankfully Google included a way to disable the feature, it's just a bit hidden. Settings -> tap on the Wi-Fi -> tap on the menu button in the lower-right hand corner and select "Advanced", Uncheck "Scanning always available" So sure, it's "a bit hidden" as the article points out, but , at least at the time the article was written, it's possible to disable this. [1] https://www.cnet.com/how-to/stop-android-4-3-from-always-scanning-for-wi-fi-networks/ https://www.cnet.com/how-to/stop-android-4-3-from-always-sca...
- josteink 9y ago
  > It is interesting to see how this is now suddenly perceived as an issue with iOS 11, while Android already introduced the same behavior with 4.3 in 2013. > The "off" setting these days only indicates that the device will not associate with any WiFi network, but it keeps the radio on for location services. That's not true. This is provenly and factually false. On All Android devices I've had (and I've had all version from 2.2. through to 8.0), turning wifi off causes lots of apps to nag you about turning it back on, exactly because of they wish to use location services.
getaclue 9y ago
Is it to farfetched to say that this may have lead to a decrease in performance and battery life that I've noticed on my iPhone 7 plus? I mean... the phone feels... sluggish now. I don't know how else to say it. Interesting time we live in friends. It seems like you have to observe every application, every update, and monitor everything if you want your software to do what you expect it to do by using it. Passing it down to the user I suppose. I used to assume that options and controls meant something for the user.
- spc476 9y ago
  I'm resigned to the fact that any workflow I have will break with the next update. And if it's a web application, it will break with the next refresh (I'm looking at you, Google Maps!). It's the CADT model [1] writ large. [1] https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
  - devrandomguy 9y ago
    Dude. That redirects to a picture of a scrotum in a cup, if you arrive with an HN referer header. I'm guessing you got pranked, lol.
    - spc476 9y ago
      No, I forgot JWZ did that. Sigh.
davb 9y ago
In general, iOS isn’t very friendly to users who favour 3G/4G over WiFi. I’ve got unlimited data on my LTE plan but very shaky WiFi at home. I can’t start an iCloud backup without WiFi and can’t download apps or updates over a certain size. And now WiFi miraculously turns itself back on after I turn it off in Control Center (as I’ve done for some time). If I want it off I’ve got to dig through Settings. Changing defaults is bad enough, but not giving users a choice to change them back is incredibly frustrating, especially for a device with such a diverse range of users and use cases. Apple (and Google, in their own way) seem to think they can push users towards a lowest common denominator use case. It just doesn’t work. Take “Do Not Disturb While Driving” for example, which kept activating when I was taking the train. I don’t drive. I set the option to manual yet it still continued to activate whenever I moved above a certain speed. I feel like the folks at Apple have decided “well, since we all drive, it’s probably true of most people”.
- andai 9y ago
  I'm on unlimited data plan too, I was constantly running into the device refusing to do what I wanted because it was trying to protect me from imaginary "unexpected charges". Strangely enough it was actually much nicer using my Android phone as the hotspot for my MacBook instead of the iPhone, because (recognizing the iPhone) it refused to auto-connect (probably those "charges" again eh?), and it would turn off the hotspot whenever the last person disconnected (so I'd have to keep my phone on all night, or be woken early by data-hungry housemates), probably for power saving. I do understand these are sensible defaults for most people. But it stops being sensible when the defaults are inappropriate, get in the way constantly, and cannot be changed. I guess their philosophy is something like, "Make 80% of people happy and totally disregard everyone else."
  - isolli 9y ago
    > I guess their philosophy is something like, "Make 80% of people happy and totally disregard everyone else." Which probably makes sense financially...
- digi_owl 9y ago
  Sadly the default assumption in IT these days is "users are dumb sheep". Its not just Apple or Google, MS is doing it as well, and I see more and more of it in the FOSS world.
myrandomcomment 9y ago
So I filed an RFE to stop bitching at me to turn on WiFi to improve location services —�- I guess I should have been more detailed :)
trowawee 9y ago
This has been easily the most obnoxious change of iOS 11. It is super annoying to have to dismiss the list of available WiFi networks every single time I open my phone while walking around the city, no matter how many times I turn my WiFi off.
- neotek 9y ago
  So why not just actually turn your wifi off? They didn't remove your ability to do so, just changed the way you do it.
  - trowawee 9y ago
    I mean, I can. It's just an annoying pain in the ass, now, rather than a simple toggle. Which was a stupid decision on Apple's part.
    - neotek 9y ago
      Is it more or less annoying than having to dismiss the list of available wifi networks? This change might be inconvenient for you personally, but I suspect there's no way in hell Apple would have made this change if they didn't have robust data on the way their average customer uses their device and didn't believe that this was a positive change.
    - jachee 9y ago
      Try "Hey Siri, turn off WiFi." Five words isn't much beyond a simple toggle. :)
      - macpete 9y ago
        Ironically you possibly need WiFi (since siri operates remotely) to turn it off.
- colejohnson66 9y ago
  Turn off “Ask to join networks”
mikeash 9y ago
All they had to do was implement it to cycle between three states: on, off-temporarily, and actually off. Or label the damned things. But no, they fundamentally changed how an important UI widget worked with no obvious indication that anything is different.
- hn_throwaway_99 9y ago
  This decision seems so fundamentally "anti-Apple". What happened to "it just works"? Heck, they could have even promoted a third option as being super innovative (not like it is, but marketing "Now with 'WiFi Safe Sleep!' or something like that would have been the old Apple way).
  - flukus 9y ago
    Even the work around is far from what I'd expect, so much hidden functionality behind long presses, 3D presses, swipes, etc from the company that used to think the right mouse button would confuse people. That's about as useful to the average person as putting the setting in an ini file.
  - Too 9y ago
    This decision is not anti-Apple at all, in fact it's Apple in a nutshell: We decide what's best for you, there should be no settings whatsoever to toggle any kind of preferred alternative option and we don't have to inform you what's going on because things obviously "just work".
  - cassowary 9y ago
    Yes. Apple used to be about empowering people. That's what ease of use was about. You can keep doing the same thing and you get the same result, but when you're ready you can finally press that button you've always ignored. You'll discover something new which you might want to undo. But that's fine too, because it's clear and obvious how to. This meant they got a reputation for building easy-to-use tools. This meant they got a reputation for building things for people who want their stuff to just work. This meant that they believed their role should be to remove things that are ugly or powerful, hiding features. This means that they're no longer building easy-to-use tools. You don't know what your phone is going to do any more. You can't predict if wifi is off or not. There's two ways to turn wifi off, one of them doesn't work. One of them allegedly works. There's no way to know this without reading documentation or relying on word of mouth. There's a good reason to want wifi to only be pseudo-off, but there's other ways they could have implemented this feature that would have been empowering. They opted for this one not because it's the right option, but because they've given up on the spirit that made them great in the first place. RTFM. It's the new motto of the Apple apologist. Soon we'll be saying "next year will be the year of Apple on the desktop".
abalone 9y ago
Even if you are the fabled user who would turn your radios off and cripple your phone just to decrease your attack surface... like you’re walking into enemy territory... Wouldn’t you just use airplane mode?
nickhalfasleep 9y ago
Any software switch is liable to be compromised. If you need real certainty, put the device in a faraday sock.
djrogers 9y ago
When I tap the WiFi or BY icons after a 3D Touch in either it says ‘not connected’ - it’s doesnt say off. That’s pretty self explanatory. When they’re off they are crossed out - also self explanatory. The only real problem here is that this could have been explained to the user on first use.
omarforgotpwd 9y ago
You can still go into settings and turn it off for real. So whatever, makes sense to me. A lot of times the Wifi is bad so i want to disconnect, but I don’t care if the OS uses the wifi radio to talk to my apple watch or determine my location or whatever. This makes total sense to me because 99% of the time I use the control center I just want to disconnect from wifi network that isn’t working.
fulafel 9y ago
This is especially egregrious coming just after the wifi drivers RCE debacle (https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.fi/2017/10/over-air-vol-2-pt-2-exploiting-wi-fi.html https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.fi/2017/10/over-air-vol-2...).
- CodeWriter23 9y ago
  But Broadcom fixed all their bugs this time. Really.
CodeWriter23 9y ago
Fake News. Your password hint is your password. Employing fascism to fight fascism. Off means on. This world is so full of shit.
hungerstrike 9y ago
I wonder what Steve Jobs would’ve said if this were a feature of other devices when he asked everybody to get off of Wi-Fi at WWDC? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lqfRx61BUg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lqfRx61BUg
- icebraining 9y ago
  Probably the same thing, as this feature would do what he intended.
galeforcewinds 9y ago
Bob Pease once said, "my favorite programming language is solder." That this OS runs on closed, proprietary hardware means we either need a third-party solution, for purchasers to vote with their feet, or for the vendor to be brought to their senses. Perhaps this is a regulatory matter for the FCC to evaluate (now or later).
- dx034 9y ago
  There is an alternative called Android where you have a choice of different manufacturers that all deliver somewhat different systems. And you can install your own OS on most devices. Android has more users than iOS so it's not that Apple would exploit their monopoly. People can vote with their feet but they like what they get with an iPhone. The number of people that want to compile their own OS is very limited.
zestyping 9y ago
This is lying to the user about a security-critical setting. Plain and simple. It's a dishonest user interface and Apple should be ashamed.
foo1423 9y ago
I find it strange that no one here on hn is pointing out that maybe Apple has changed things due to the fact that they want your radio data...
Systemic33 9y ago
Apple technically does show the difference, but it is very very subtle, and most users would never notice unless told so. Connected state = Blue background color Disconnected state = Gray background color (Force Touch shows "Not Connected") Off state = Gray background with gray slash across the icon (Force Touch shows "Off")
yoz-y 9y ago
I very much like the new system, I usually disable wifi either when it is too flaky or when I need to test something with an external network. Before when I forgot to put it back on my gps location would be slow and drain the battery, not everything is good. I do not use hotspots as my LTE is usually faster and more reliable (not to mention more secure). However. It seems that there is a clear divide on how this button should work, and this usually means that there should be an option to set the behavior. Apple hates settings but I do believe that they will do something about this in a few releases.
hguhghuff 9y ago
Off means off. Or it should.
calvinbhai 9y ago
Though I wish it was communicated better, I don’t know how they can do it. It’s good to know the difference. I love this feature. Fringe wifi areas are where I turn wifi off, and often I’m not turning wifi back on. It affects cellular data consumption, location accuracy and also the battery. I don’t understand how is this affecting the security of the device.
pdimitar 9y ago
I have a lot of respect for EFF but this time they just do a blind hate. Many people forget to re-enable Wi-Fi after they turned off due to a spotty connection. This feature saves them money. The security-minded users have zero trouble going to the real control panel -- it's quite honestly one Home button press and one one tap away! -- and do the real disabling of Wi-Fi / Bluetooth. Come on. This is not a grand conspiracy. It's an attempt to make all sides happy. I agree it could've been communicated better -- that's very obvious -- but everything above that is just Apple hate.
Waterluvian 9y ago
Every week at least a few times I turn off WiFi because it's interfering with something I want to look up quickly. But then I get home and realise later I've been watching YouTube over 3G. I like the feature, I just want a three state switch in the UI.
khana 9y ago
You friggin' got that right. And don't tell me it saves power. FORK TIME
Xeoncross 9y ago
Just an added thought. I question the possible health side-effects of having a transmitter (even a small-power one) 14hrs a day on my hip or in my shirt pocket 2 inches from my baby's brain. I learned the dangers of hi-power devices even at 10ft away - I prefer to turn off the wifi/bluetooth (at least) when possible. Apple has made airplane mode really easy and quick until now, even when the phone is locked.
torstenvl 9y ago
I'm really surprised to see so many on HN defending this behavior change, when it objectively violates traditional UI/UX principles and Apple's own HIG. The principle of least astonishment is there for a reason: as Apple itself says, iOS interfaces must "incorporate[] features and behaviors in ways people expect." The toggle is too close to previous versions to have a different behavior. I'm not opposed to the behavior itself, necessarily, and it seems like some people might find it useful. But implementing it as a bait-and-switch was the wrong call.
calebm 9y ago
No means no Apple.
vinniejames 9y ago
This has been driving me crazy. Couldn’t figure out why my WiFi kept turning back on. Not to mention, the first two iOS 11 releases broke the “Phone” app, leaving me unable to make actual phone calls. Hello Pixel 2
manigandham 9y ago
All Apple had to do was make a 3rd stage icon/look to have: on, temp disconnected, off. Cycle through with a tap or 3D touch. Everyone's happy.
balthamael 9y ago
Apple is for "sheep", what else is new? Like removing the headphone jack to underhandedly force people into Bluetooth headphones(with Apple conveniently owning Beats, who has the biggest market share of aforementioned headphones) and insultingly excusing it with "innovation" and non-reasons. Yet people will crawl out of the woodwork to arbitrarily defend their phone brand, which is apparently really important for their identity.

543 points by panarky 9y ago

I hate this. I have a ton of wifi hotspots setup in the city, some of them require authentication, some of them don't. I leave work, mount my phone on my bike, "turn off" WiFi and cycle before realizing that nothing (like maps) is updating because I connected to a wifi point that needs authentication, or a point that is now far away because I already cycled by. While cycling, I reach to my phone and switch it "off" again just to be again connected to some other access point at the next crossing. I really hope for a setting in the next version so that off means off again.

r00fus 9y ago
Can't you just turn off wifi's promiscuous mode? I forget all wifi points except for any place I regularly go. LTE is good enough for cafes and the like.
- rkangel 9y ago
  > I have a ton of wifi hotspots setup in the city Presumably they are cycling past places they visit.
new299 9y ago
Right, I feel like this is a bigger issue than the privacy angle too. For privacy/security, I feel like it's only really going to help to turn off all radios (airplane mode).
- gervase 9y ago
  Just so you know, this feature change also affects airplane mode; that is, when you turn on airplane mode, only the cellular modem turns off. The WiFi and Bluetooth radios remain on if they're currently connected to something, only turning off completely if not connected.
  - new299 9y ago
    ok, that seems somewhat confusing having googled it [1]. But I guess at least the UI shows that Wifi and Bluetooth are on. I assume that if after activating airplane mode you disconnect bluetooth and wifi from the control center, it really does turn all radios off... [1] http://www.redmondpie.com/new-in-ios-11-airplane-mode-no-longer-turns-off-wifi-or-bluetooth-automatically/ http://www.redmondpie.com/new-in-ios-11-airplane-mode-no-lon...
clouddrover 9y ago
The workaround I use is to add Settings to the taskbar. If you force-press Settings it pops up a menu which allows you to get to the WiFi section directly. Turning off WiFi in Settings turns it off (you'll see the WiFi icon has a line through it in Control Centre).
- pdimitar 9y ago
  Already doing this, it's basically half a second more work and I can't for the life of me understand why the people make so much drama about the new state of affairs.
jwong_ 9y ago
If you want to be off wifi why not just fully turn it off? It seems like you want it to be off for a long time. Going into settings to turn off the radio doesn't seem to be hugely laborious if you really do want it off for the entire ride.
- cassowary 9y ago
  That's a really silly reply. There's nothing in the UI that tells me turning Wifi off in the control centre has a different meaning today than it had last week. It's not at all clear that turning it off in the Settings app will have a different result. Literally. You're obliging us to read someone's mind. Moreover, going to the Settings app is laborious. There's a lot of stuff there. When you open it, you don't always "start from the start", so that pulling it up requires working out where it is in the app you are in order to navigate appropriately. Instead of focusing on the task of disabling wifi and going somewhere, you have to focus on the task of navigating an app. And also if you have a phone that wasn't bought yesterday, it will probably close some other app you were running because it's run out of RAM. All so that some weird usecase I can't understand is available. This fellow is the only person who's described a usecase for disconnecting from wifi networks while leaving wifi on, insofar as leaving the radio on won't have upsetting results for him. But the feature doesn't work for him. For me, sometimes I need my battery to last all day not just till dinner. I want the radio off. I can't think of a non-technical/non-exceptional use that is benefited by this feature. (NB. I quite like the idea that my wifi will spontaneously turn back on again when the battery is charged adequately, or at 5am or some such. It would've saved my data on numerous occasions. But that's a different feature that hasn't been implemented.)
- fehrm 9y ago
  That is what he did. It is a toggle. It is not a feature to force everyone to go to settings and click a kit more times. It is silly to claim that this is fine.
- Ensorceled 9y ago
  The entire point is they thought they did turn it off. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

kevin_thibedeau 9y ago

As opposed to Google's dark patterns that make maps unusable with location tracking off.

mannykannot 9y ago
No, not "as opposed to." This is a completely bogus line of argument, even if the "opposing" behavior is equally bad.
panarky 9y ago
Google Maps is perfectly usable with location turned off. I often use it this way just to stretch the battery.
- dingo_bat 9y ago
  He means location tracking, not location. If you turn off location tracking in settings, maps will keep bugging you. Even though it just needs location at that time and it is enabled, but you must allow Google to create a fucking timeline of you all the time otherwise maps will keep nagging you.

paloaltokid 9y ago

Yes, this was a big surprise in iOS 11. I can understand the appeal of making it work this way, but I wish it was implemented as a parallel set of options. Or at least make it configurable in settings of how it should work. I feel the same way about the "Do Not Disturb While Driving" feature. I like the feature a lot, and I've been using it, but I wish it was a parallel feature as well. My "Do Not Disturb" patterns are different in the car from when I'm not and I'd like to be able to configure it as such.

zwily 9y ago
I wish the “Do Not Disturb While Driving” would re-enable itself after the car starts moving again. I lie and tell it I’m not driving all the time at a light to select the next podcast.
- lucaspiller 9y ago
  Yeah this is a bit of a weird feature. I understand it’s a kind of mental barrier to prevent you using your phone while driving, but it’s weird you can’t keep it on and still use your phone - especially when you aren’t moving as you say.
  - theobon 9y ago
    Every jurisdiction I'm aware of considers using your phone while stopped at a red light the same as while driving. Apple enabling this behaviour within a feature specifically designed to support safe driving laws would be illogical.

UnoriginalGuy 9y ago

Well this finally explains why Bluetooth kept re-enabling itself seemingly at random after I turned it off in iOS 11... I agree with the EFF on this one, at no time was any of how this works communicated, particularly not the "turns back on at 5 am" quirk. These features aren't inherently bad, but lack of communication is bad.

MBCook 9y ago
See my other post in this thread, it is communicated. It’s definitely settle. But it is there.
- jackvalentine 9y ago
  If that counts as communicating changes, it seems a bit Hitchhiker's to me. No user should be expected to notice and figure out the changed behavior for something they do that takes half a second, based on that 'communication'. > “But the plans were on display…” > “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.” > “That’s the display department.” > “With a flashlight.” > “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.” > “So had the stairs.” > “But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?” > “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”
  - MBCook 9y ago
    I meant that the buttons communicate what they do, not the Apple effectively communicated that they changed what they do. That’s all.
    - jackvalentine 9y ago
      I would still disagree with that, but I suppose we’re getting in to circular opinion waste of time territory now...

TempleOS 9y ago

cia nigger in denial

Terretta 9y ago

> In an attempt to keep you connected to Apple devices and services, iOS 11 compromises users' security. No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan. (And the very real frustration when things don’t work they expect to work, and they don’t know why.) Meanwhile, the security motivated user will figure out she can 3D Touch or go into settings and meet her more sophisticated use cases. Consider the normal user’s scenarios and do the math. This saves more users from more loss.

astronautjones 9y ago
This is such a backwards approach to security in an age where the average user is only less and less informed
new299 9y ago
I just spent a couple of minutes trying to 3D touch to properly disable wifi, then googling how to do this with 3d touch and came up empty. Either it doesn't work that way, or it's well hidden and appears not great in terms of UX. Overall, I agree with you though. I'm personally not clear on the utility of turning off just wifi or just bluetooth. I assume (hope) airplane mode turns everything off. But in any other scenario you're still leaking location and other information.
- mattacular 9y ago
  There is no way to 3D touch the bluetooth and wireless radios all the way off in iOS11. You have to manually go all the way into settings.app now which takes quite a bit more effort not to mention longer than the old control center
  - nkristoffersen 9y ago
    You can 3D Touch the settings app which provides shortcuts to both bluetooth settings and wifi settings.

rileytg 9y ago

my airpods disconnect when i turn bluetooth off from control center. very weird that’s not an exception...

freehunter 9y ago
So Bluetooth devices disconnect when you hit the button to disconnect Bluetooth devices?
- vacri 9y ago
  From The Fine Article: > Location Services is still enabled, Apple devices (like Apple Watch and Pencil) stay connected, and services such as Handoff and Instant Hotspot stay on. > The only way to turn off the Wi-Fi and Bluetooth radios... The GP is right that it's weird that Apple Watch stays connected when you ask for a disconnect, but Apple Earbuds do not. TFA wasn't only talking about the wifi radio.
syncsynchalt 9y ago
They're bluetooth devices. I'm not sure what your expectation is?
- CodeWriter23 9y ago
  I would expect BT devices to be turned off. BUT Apple’s rationale for faux turning off in control center is so they can maintain Apple services, so I would expect EarPods to stay on under their new ridiculous regime of “Off means On”.
Operyl 9y ago
They probably made this exception because unlike the pencil or watch, this is something that “takes control” of a system component (your audio output). It likely made more sense to disconnect them in this case.

api_or_ipa 9y ago

Not sure if this is new in the ios world, but I discovered this 'feature' in Android years ago. Turns out Beacon Requests are very important to location services, especially where gps doesn't work (like in any indoor location).

Perceptes 9y ago

This has bugged me too since upgrading to iOS 11. I understand the motivation for the change, but it was not necessary to make the UI misleading. It should very clearly indicate between "off" and "off-ish," and allow switching to a true off state, perhaps by long-pressing the icon to get additional options, like how several other control center panels work.

MBCook 9y ago
The messages the display at the top of the screen when you tap the icons were the labels below the icons if you expand the panel clearly show whether the radios are off or just disconnected.
- joombaga 9y ago
  The message says "disconnected", it doesn't say anything about the power state. If I didn't know, it wouldn't occur to me that "off" and "disconnected" are distinct states, especially since this differs from the previous behavior of the same button.
- hesarenu 9y ago
  If you are explaining too much then it would mean that its not communicated properly.
- josteink 9y ago
  > clearly show whether the radios are off or just disconnected. I guess you and most of the rest of the planet have very different opinion about what "clearly" means then, otherwise we woulnd't be having this discussion now.
- Ensorceled 9y ago
  There is a rule in UX Design that if you have to explain the UX to people it’s a bad UX.

userbinator 9y ago

In other words, the WiFi actually has 3 states: Off, Idle/disassociated/disconnected, and Connected/Associated. Most people have experienced all 3 states, but it seems Apple is under the impression that users are too stupid to know the difference between them... The Wi-Fi will turn back full-on if you drive or walk to a new location. And both Wi-Fi and Bluetooth will turn back on at 5:00 AM. This is not clearly explained to users, nor left to them to choose, which makes security-aware users vulnerable as well. Why 5:00 AM, and why only WiFi when location changes (and how far must the location change? That is not mentioned even on the Apple support page)? This set of conditions reminds me of the decisions taken by aircraft automation systems --- read how the Boeing autothrottle works, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autothrottle#Usage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autothrottle#Usage Of course, the majority of iOS users have nowhere near that ability to memorise how this "automatic wireless control" works, so Apple doesn't bother to make the explanation prominent; which brings me to the next point: Apple products aren't designed for you. They're designed for the user Apple wants, and by not giving any choices to change the behaviour, Apple is gradually "creating an average user" by forcing them into compliance and causing the rest to a different platform. To continue the analogy, Apple's design has all the complexity of aircraft automation, and works well for the ideal use case, but none of the transparency and predictability, nor the ability to turn it all off and "fly manually" when it fails. Also, the original item on HN about this, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15297387 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15297387 , was rather ironically accompanied by this one submitted around roughly the same time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15299165 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15299165 The security aspect is not just a theoretical one.

jamesrcole 9y ago
[EDIT: to all the people downvoting this, what do you think is incorrect about either of the two points I made?] > the WiFi actually has 3 states: ... Most people have experienced all 3 states, but it seems Apple is under the impression that users are too stupid to know the difference between them. ... Of course, the majority of iOS users have nowhere near that ability to memorise how this "automatic wireleas control" works Hypocrisy much? It sounds like you're trying to seize any opportunity you can to bash Apple.
9y ago

raimue 9y ago

It is interesting to see how this is now suddenly perceived as an issue with iOS 11, while Android already introduced the same behavior with 4.3 in 2013. The "off" setting these days only indicates that the device will not associate with any WiFi network, but it keeps the radio on for location services. Without commenting whether this is actually bad for security, articles on the matter should point out that Android phones are doing the same to raise awareness. Edit: iOS enables WiFi on switching location, but re-enabling WiFi based on known locations is only a new feature of Android 8 Oreo. So for most Android users WiFi will at least not be turned back on automatically yet.

davidcbc 9y ago
That's not the iOS behavior. Toggling "off" just disconnects you from your current network, you will still connect to the next known network you come in contact with.
vmarsy 9y ago
In an article[1] about it, it clearly says you can disable it : >> This isn't going to sit well with everyone, and thankfully Google included a way to disable the feature, it's just a bit hidden. Settings -> tap on the Wi-Fi -> tap on the menu button in the lower-right hand corner and select "Advanced", Uncheck "Scanning always available" So sure, it's "a bit hidden" as the article points out, but , at least at the time the article was written, it's possible to disable this. [1] https://www.cnet.com/how-to/stop-android-4-3-from-always-scanning-for-wi-fi-networks/ https://www.cnet.com/how-to/stop-android-4-3-from-always-sca...
josteink 9y ago
> It is interesting to see how this is now suddenly perceived as an issue with iOS 11, while Android already introduced the same behavior with 4.3 in 2013. > The "off" setting these days only indicates that the device will not associate with any WiFi network, but it keeps the radio on for location services. That's not true. This is provenly and factually false. On All Android devices I've had (and I've had all version from 2.2. through to 8.0), turning wifi off causes lots of apps to nag you about turning it back on, exactly because of they wish to use location services.

getaclue 9y ago

Is it to farfetched to say that this may have lead to a decrease in performance and battery life that I've noticed on my iPhone 7 plus? I mean... the phone feels... sluggish now. I don't know how else to say it. Interesting time we live in friends. It seems like you have to observe every application, every update, and monitor everything if you want your software to do what you expect it to do by using it. Passing it down to the user I suppose. I used to assume that options and controls meant something for the user.

spc476 9y ago
I'm resigned to the fact that any workflow I have will break with the next update. And if it's a web application, it will break with the next refresh (I'm looking at you, Google Maps!). It's the CADT model [1] writ large. [1] https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
- devrandomguy 9y ago
  Dude. That redirects to a picture of a scrotum in a cup, if you arrive with an HN referer header. I'm guessing you got pranked, lol.
  - spc476 9y ago
    No, I forgot JWZ did that. Sigh.

davb 9y ago

In general, iOS isn’t very friendly to users who favour 3G/4G over WiFi. I’ve got unlimited data on my LTE plan but very shaky WiFi at home. I can’t start an iCloud backup without WiFi and can’t download apps or updates over a certain size. And now WiFi miraculously turns itself back on after I turn it off in Control Center (as I’ve done for some time). If I want it off I’ve got to dig through Settings. Changing defaults is bad enough, but not giving users a choice to change them back is incredibly frustrating, especially for a device with such a diverse range of users and use cases. Apple (and Google, in their own way) seem to think they can push users towards a lowest common denominator use case. It just doesn’t work. Take “Do Not Disturb While Driving” for example, which kept activating when I was taking the train. I don’t drive. I set the option to manual yet it still continued to activate whenever I moved above a certain speed. I feel like the folks at Apple have decided “well, since we all drive, it’s probably true of most people”.

andai 9y ago
I'm on unlimited data plan too, I was constantly running into the device refusing to do what I wanted because it was trying to protect me from imaginary "unexpected charges". Strangely enough it was actually much nicer using my Android phone as the hotspot for my MacBook instead of the iPhone, because (recognizing the iPhone) it refused to auto-connect (probably those "charges" again eh?), and it would turn off the hotspot whenever the last person disconnected (so I'd have to keep my phone on all night, or be woken early by data-hungry housemates), probably for power saving. I do understand these are sensible defaults for most people. But it stops being sensible when the defaults are inappropriate, get in the way constantly, and cannot be changed. I guess their philosophy is something like, "Make 80% of people happy and totally disregard everyone else."
- isolli 9y ago
  > I guess their philosophy is something like, "Make 80% of people happy and totally disregard everyone else." Which probably makes sense financially...
digi_owl 9y ago
Sadly the default assumption in IT these days is "users are dumb sheep". Its not just Apple or Google, MS is doing it as well, and I see more and more of it in the FOSS world.

myrandomcomment 9y ago

So I filed an RFE to stop bitching at me to turn on WiFi to improve location services —�- I guess I should have been more detailed :)

trowawee 9y ago

This has been easily the most obnoxious change of iOS 11. It is super annoying to have to dismiss the list of available WiFi networks every single time I open my phone while walking around the city, no matter how many times I turn my WiFi off.

neotek 9y ago
So why not just actually turn your wifi off? They didn't remove your ability to do so, just changed the way you do it.
- trowawee 9y ago
  I mean, I can. It's just an annoying pain in the ass, now, rather than a simple toggle. Which was a stupid decision on Apple's part.
  - neotek 9y ago
    Is it more or less annoying than having to dismiss the list of available wifi networks? This change might be inconvenient for you personally, but I suspect there's no way in hell Apple would have made this change if they didn't have robust data on the way their average customer uses their device and didn't believe that this was a positive change.
  - jachee 9y ago
    Try "Hey Siri, turn off WiFi." Five words isn't much beyond a simple toggle. :)
    - macpete 9y ago
      Ironically you possibly need WiFi (since siri operates remotely) to turn it off.
colejohnson66 9y ago
Turn off “Ask to join networks”

mikeash 9y ago

All they had to do was implement it to cycle between three states: on, off-temporarily, and actually off. Or label the damned things. But no, they fundamentally changed how an important UI widget worked with no obvious indication that anything is different.

hn_throwaway_99 9y ago
This decision seems so fundamentally "anti-Apple". What happened to "it just works"? Heck, they could have even promoted a third option as being super innovative (not like it is, but marketing "Now with 'WiFi Safe Sleep!' or something like that would have been the old Apple way).
- flukus 9y ago
  Even the work around is far from what I'd expect, so much hidden functionality behind long presses, 3D presses, swipes, etc from the company that used to think the right mouse button would confuse people. That's about as useful to the average person as putting the setting in an ini file.
- Too 9y ago
  This decision is not anti-Apple at all, in fact it's Apple in a nutshell: We decide what's best for you, there should be no settings whatsoever to toggle any kind of preferred alternative option and we don't have to inform you what's going on because things obviously "just work".
- cassowary 9y ago
  Yes. Apple used to be about empowering people. That's what ease of use was about. You can keep doing the same thing and you get the same result, but when you're ready you can finally press that button you've always ignored. You'll discover something new which you might want to undo. But that's fine too, because it's clear and obvious how to. This meant they got a reputation for building easy-to-use tools. This meant they got a reputation for building things for people who want their stuff to just work. This meant that they believed their role should be to remove things that are ugly or powerful, hiding features. This means that they're no longer building easy-to-use tools. You don't know what your phone is going to do any more. You can't predict if wifi is off or not. There's two ways to turn wifi off, one of them doesn't work. One of them allegedly works. There's no way to know this without reading documentation or relying on word of mouth. There's a good reason to want wifi to only be pseudo-off, but there's other ways they could have implemented this feature that would have been empowering. They opted for this one not because it's the right option, but because they've given up on the spirit that made them great in the first place. RTFM. It's the new motto of the Apple apologist. Soon we'll be saying "next year will be the year of Apple on the desktop".

abalone 9y ago

Even if you are the fabled user who would turn your radios off and cripple your phone just to decrease your attack surface... like you’re walking into enemy territory... Wouldn’t you just use airplane mode?

nickhalfasleep 9y ago

Any software switch is liable to be compromised. If you need real certainty, put the device in a faraday sock.

djrogers 9y ago

When I tap the WiFi or BY icons after a 3D Touch in either it says ‘not connected’ - it’s doesnt say off. That’s pretty self explanatory. When they’re off they are crossed out - also self explanatory. The only real problem here is that this could have been explained to the user on first use.

omarforgotpwd 9y ago

You can still go into settings and turn it off for real. So whatever, makes sense to me. A lot of times the Wifi is bad so i want to disconnect, but I don’t care if the OS uses the wifi radio to talk to my apple watch or determine my location or whatever. This makes total sense to me because 99% of the time I use the control center I just want to disconnect from wifi network that isn’t working.

fulafel 9y ago

This is especially egregrious coming just after the wifi drivers RCE debacle (https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.fi/2017/10/over-air-vol-2-pt-2-exploiting-wi-fi.html https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.fi/2017/10/over-air-vol-2...).

CodeWriter23 9y ago
But Broadcom fixed all their bugs this time. Really.

CodeWriter23 9y ago

Fake News. Your password hint is your password. Employing fascism to fight fascism. Off means on. This world is so full of shit.

hungerstrike 9y ago

I wonder what Steve Jobs would’ve said if this were a feature of other devices when he asked everybody to get off of Wi-Fi at WWDC? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lqfRx61BUg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lqfRx61BUg

icebraining 9y ago
Probably the same thing, as this feature would do what he intended.

galeforcewinds 9y ago

Bob Pease once said, "my favorite programming language is solder." That this OS runs on closed, proprietary hardware means we either need a third-party solution, for purchasers to vote with their feet, or for the vendor to be brought to their senses. Perhaps this is a regulatory matter for the FCC to evaluate (now or later).

dx034 9y ago
There is an alternative called Android where you have a choice of different manufacturers that all deliver somewhat different systems. And you can install your own OS on most devices. Android has more users than iOS so it's not that Apple would exploit their monopoly. People can vote with their feet but they like what they get with an iPhone. The number of people that want to compile their own OS is very limited.

zestyping 9y ago

This is lying to the user about a security-critical setting. Plain and simple. It's a dishonest user interface and Apple should be ashamed.

foo1423 9y ago

I find it strange that no one here on hn is pointing out that maybe Apple has changed things due to the fact that they want your radio data...

Systemic33 9y ago

Apple technically does show the difference, but it is very very subtle, and most users would never notice unless told so. Connected state = Blue background color Disconnected state = Gray background color (Force Touch shows "Not Connected") Off state = Gray background with gray slash across the icon (Force Touch shows "Off")

yoz-y 9y ago

I very much like the new system, I usually disable wifi either when it is too flaky or when I need to test something with an external network. Before when I forgot to put it back on my gps location would be slow and drain the battery, not everything is good. I do not use hotspots as my LTE is usually faster and more reliable (not to mention more secure). However. It seems that there is a clear divide on how this button should work, and this usually means that there should be an option to set the behavior. Apple hates settings but I do believe that they will do something about this in a few releases.

hguhghuff 9y ago

Off means off. Or it should.

calvinbhai 9y ago

Though I wish it was communicated better, I don’t know how they can do it. It’s good to know the difference. I love this feature. Fringe wifi areas are where I turn wifi off, and often I’m not turning wifi back on. It affects cellular data consumption, location accuracy and also the battery. I don’t understand how is this affecting the security of the device.

pdimitar 9y ago

I have a lot of respect for EFF but this time they just do a blind hate. Many people forget to re-enable Wi-Fi after they turned off due to a spotty connection. This feature saves them money. The security-minded users have zero trouble going to the real control panel -- it's quite honestly one Home button press and one one tap away! -- and do the real disabling of Wi-Fi / Bluetooth. Come on. This is not a grand conspiracy. It's an attempt to make all sides happy. I agree it could've been communicated better -- that's very obvious -- but everything above that is just Apple hate.

Waterluvian 9y ago

Every week at least a few times I turn off WiFi because it's interfering with something I want to look up quickly. But then I get home and realise later I've been watching YouTube over 3G. I like the feature, I just want a three state switch in the UI.

khana 9y ago

You friggin' got that right. And don't tell me it saves power. FORK TIME

Xeoncross 9y ago

Just an added thought. I question the possible health side-effects of having a transmitter (even a small-power one) 14hrs a day on my hip or in my shirt pocket 2 inches from my baby's brain. I learned the dangers of hi-power devices even at 10ft away - I prefer to turn off the wifi/bluetooth (at least) when possible. Apple has made airplane mode really easy and quick until now, even when the phone is locked.

torstenvl 9y ago

I'm really surprised to see so many on HN defending this behavior change, when it objectively violates traditional UI/UX principles and Apple's own HIG. The principle of least astonishment is there for a reason: as Apple itself says, iOS interfaces must "incorporate[] features and behaviors in ways people expect." The toggle is too close to previous versions to have a different behavior. I'm not opposed to the behavior itself, necessarily, and it seems like some people might find it useful. But implementing it as a bait-and-switch was the wrong call.

calebm 9y ago

No means no Apple.

vinniejames 9y ago

This has been driving me crazy. Couldn’t figure out why my WiFi kept turning back on. Not to mention, the first two iOS 11 releases broke the “Phone” app, leaving me unable to make actual phone calls. Hello Pixel 2

manigandham 9y ago

All Apple had to do was make a 3rd stage icon/look to have: on, temp disconnected, off. Cycle through with a tap or 3D touch. Everyone's happy.

balthamael 9y ago

Apple is for "sheep", what else is new? Like removing the headphone jack to underhandedly force people into Bluetooth headphones(with Apple conveniently owning Beats, who has the biggest market share of aforementioned headphones) and insultingly excusing it with "innovation" and non-reasons. Yet people will crawl out of the woodwork to arbitrarily defend their phone brand, which is apparently really important for their identity.