8 ms·

You know I can't really feel their plight. Take this: >Hundreds of miles away, in Minas Gerais State, Dr. Jiménez, 34, found the work rewarding, but also began

• nradov 9y ago
  Cuba is explicitly organized around keeping the Castros and their cronies in power. Propaganda aside, giving everybody a chance to succeed was never an actual organizing principle.
  • emodendroket 9y ago
    Maybe so but Cuban doctors hardly strike me as an example of people trammeled by the system.
  • jondubois 9y ago
    I think that there is a bit of truth to both arguments. There are a lot of very smart people in the west who never had the chance to study medicine (there seem to be a lot of American janitors with high IQs...) - Under a communist regime, those who are mentally able to become a doctor can generally do so; in the west there are many financial and social hurdles. Communism removes the element of luck from the system. I don't think it's quite fair to portray the doctors as having being treated unfairly though I also understand that it might feel that way.
    • nradov 9y ago
      That was never how it worked in communist countries. Admission to medical schools and other advanced education was often based more on political reliability (Party membership), family connections, and outright bribes. Sure some people made it on merit, but communism never removed the element of luck from the system.
• maxerickson 9y ago
  I expect it largely comes down to them not defining success the way you are here.
• chongli 9y ago
  Why is it weird? Humans don't like to pay for the meal they ate yesterday. Far better to focus on tomorrow.
• brightball 9y ago
  Couldn't this same train of thought be applied to the current discourse around student loans though?
• TallGuyShort 9y ago
  >> how many 34 y/o american doctors are even close to paying down their debt? I know more than a few successful Americans that age who whinge about their student loan debt too.
• influx 9y ago
  And yet those Cuban doctors would give up their entire way of life, access to family members and the country they grew up in to move to the evil capitalist United States. Weird.
  • gozur88 9y ago
    While I'm no fan of Cuba, I have to point out doctors come to the US from a lot of different countries because they'll get paid more. That's just human nature.
  • frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
    Weird how they do it after they became doctors and not before.
    • daveFNbuck 9y ago
      Lots of people leave Cuba for America without becoming doctors first.
    • ars 9y ago
      Tons of Cubans do if before as well. Have you never heard of wet-foot dry-foot?
    • dpraburaj 9y ago
      It's actually weird how many people in capitalist countries look at failed/failing communist states and think of them as utopias, all the while ignoring the plight of millions living there in poverty and with no clear path to a better standard of life. They should put their money where their mouth is and spend at least a few decades in such countries before criticising others who've made a choice to leave(for various reasons).
      • frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
        How much of that is America's doing? If the embargo were lifted, do you still think Communist Cuba would be failing? Its poverty is a result of America's intolerance for different political systems, not the result of those political systems themselves.
• phd514 9y ago
  Where to start? They don't allow anyone to attend medical school in Cuba. They accept a certain number of foreign students based on some standard of financial need. As for Cuban medical students, they're stuck as practitioners in the Cuban medical system which isn't a particularly great success from the perspective of financial reward. Certainly there are many problems with the US system of medical training and treatment, but at least it's still a financially rewarding occupation in the US.
• jerkstate 9y ago
  I think you hit the nail on the head there. In non-communist countries, it is possible to pay off your education debt, and profit from your hard work thereafter. In Cuba, it isn't.
  • davidw 9y ago
    This is true even under single payer systems like Italy. Via my wife, I know the GP in the small town where she lived, and he has a place in the mountains, a boat in the laguna, and regularly takes nice vacations around the world. He's doing pretty well, in other words, and I don't think most people begrudge doctors some financial rewards for what they do.
  • adrianN 9y ago
    I live in a non-communist country and still got all my education for free. There aren't just two political systems, the American one and dirty communism.
    • jerkstate 9y ago
      The last thing I intended to do was defend the totally broken American education system, where the costs are inflated by subsidized loans which were purportedly intended to increase access but actually work to move us closer to an indentured servitude system like they have in Cuba.
    • briandear 9y ago
      You don’t get anything for free. Your 40%+ taxes give you that “for free.” I’d rather pay more for school and keep more of my earnings than have “free” school and high taxes forever. Americans have more disposable income than the countries with “free” university. Student debt is temporary, confiscatory taxes are forever. Study comp sci in France, graduate and make €40k per year before taxes. Study comp sci in the US, graduate and make $100k but with $80k in debt. What’s the better deal? Remember that $100k also includes health benefits, vacation and all that. That €40k probably has an effective tax rate of 35% while the $100k likely has Ann effective rate of 20%. School isn’t “free” — you pay dearly for it.
• candiodari 9y ago
  Perhaps some amount of repayment for education is reasonable, but not this amount. How many American doctors are paying >75% of their AFTER TAX income to pay down those debts ? None. How many Cuban doctors agreed to the arrangement of being restricted to a country controlled by the Cuban government, and therefore only offered a pittance for their services ? None. They were born there. What would happen if a bank offered such a deal to a US citizen ? They would be persecuted, as this falls under "usury" and is a crime. Note: it's a crime. As in, if a bank does this and gets convicted (which happens regularly) people WILL go to jail for doing this. What would happen if I did the same, organising a job for you in a foreign country and in return I get 75% of your wages in a contract that couldn't be broken ? You could go to a judge and get the contract annulled, as this clearly violates labor laws. The article seems to confirm that this indeed violates even Brazilian labor laws.
  • appleflaxen 9y ago
    > if a bank does this and gets convicted (which happens regularly) people WILL go to jail for doing this thanks for pointing this out; I've heard the term "usury", but have never seen it linked with criminal charges. but a quick web search shows that you're right. really interesting, and great point regarding the fraction of after-tax payments. thanks!
• Angostura 9y ago
  I think the point is probably this: > But the doctors get a small cut of that money, If the Cuban government were taking something like 10%-20% of salaray, you could see how that would wash. I presume they are taking much more
  • arethuza 9y ago
    It's pretty common in professional services contexts for people to be charged out at least 3 or 4 times their salary.
    • throwawayknecht 9y ago
      Yeah, according to the article: > The World Health Organization, a United Nations agency, helped broker the deal. Under it, Brazil pays Cuba... nearly four times what Cuban doctors earn through the arrangement. Google makes $1,200,000 per employee; a comparable average salary is then $300,000, which sounds on the high end of plausible if restricted only to engineer salaries (and it'd be a very top-heavy average), but implausibly high for a company-wide average.
      • arethuza 9y ago
        Google aren't in professional services though - which is a very different business model to what Google does.
• mratzloff 9y ago
  I'm sure American doctors would pay down their debt quite quickly if they lived like a Cuban doctor and nearly their entire paycheck went to school loans. Ultimately, if you think it's such a good deal, I'm sure Cuba would let you defect and go to medical school for the opportunity to earn $30/month like she does in Cuba.
  • ue_ 9y ago
    I think it's possible to critique both systems; the American (capitalist) system in which you need to pay huge amounts for education in order to have the mere chance to get a job that's above sustenace wage, the system screwing over especially those who can't afford to pay back debt; the Cuban system in which your training is free of charge but you cannot apply your skills such that you receive above sustenance wage. Considering the doctors who are able to get into well-paying jobs alone, the American system seems to work better. Another commenter remarked that the Cuban system is set up to keep the people at the top in power, the American capitalist system less obviously so. I wonder what other methods of Socialist organisation may be explored other than the capitalist wage-labour system we see in both Cuba and the US. The idea of labour vouchers has always been interesting to me.
    • briandear 9y ago
      Plumbers and electricians make great money and they aren’t incurring debt to do so. Plumbers, especially self employed ones, make more than your average “marketing assistant” or some other job that requires a degree. Plenty of people go to school and don’t rack up tens of thousands in debt. The question we should be asking is why does education cost keep expanding so quickly: cost inflation is much higher than even healthcare. It isn’t “capitalism” it’s actually the he fact that student loan availability distorts the market. Eliminate student loans and costs will drop like a rock to a level the actual market supports. Don’t blame capitalism because capitalism would never support the artificial cost inflation caused by government intervention. If Big Macs were subsidized as much as universities, they’d cost $100 because McDonald’s knows that if you can’t afford it, the government will be there to help.
• bitL 9y ago
  A typical case of "grass is greener elsewhere" and quitter syndrome. Pretty common in ex-commie countries that expected manna from heaven once they switched their system, then ended up in a shock. It would probably suck if you were confined to the same work/hospital/team most of your life though.
• OmeCommentLeft 9y ago
  Replace Cuban doctor with Silicon Valley programmer. Reveal communist redistributuon to mean almost 95% of your income is given to rural meth head white trash. I guess you're right. I wouldn't give a fuck about your plight, either.
• coliveira 9y ago
  There are many problems in Cuba, but what this article is saying is based on pure propaganda. Of course these doctors are not receiving money as they would in the US, this is the whole point of a communist system. In the other hand they didn't have to pay anything for education during their whole life, unlike the US where just a few people have the money and/or opportunity to go to medical school. It is just like going to Cuban managers and saying that they wished to live in a capitalist system where they would made 10 times more than their poor friends. It doesn't make it right. In other words, this article is trying to attack Cuba for what it did right as a communist country, not for what it did wrong. If this were the worst that came out from Cuba, then it would be pretty close to perfect.
  • trgv 9y ago
    Ehhhh, up to a point. The thing you're not mentioning is that these doctors don't live in Cuba. They live in capitalist countries in which the government doesn't (even try to) provide X, Y, and Z. Sure, the doctors got a free education, and that's worth a lot. But at some point they'll have paid off the value of that education and after that point, they're still being taxed at some very high rate and they're seeing no benefit from those taxes because they live in Brazil. Seems like exploitation to me.
    • eradicatethots 9y ago
      It’s rare to see an article about exploited people met with “yes they’re actually exploited, and that’s very sad” on this website.
  • agumonkey 9y ago
    That says something about human nature. Many want to satisfy themselves in a way that money conveys. I wonder if other countries (US, France, England...) students would see things like this Cuban doctor if they had full medical education for free. Would they think relatively to the tuition system ? would they say that being able to cure people is so worthy they'd do it for free.
  • rvail2 9y ago
• notyourday 9y ago
  The love of communism among those that don't live in places that tried to implement it is something that totally baffles me.
  • joshuas 9y ago
    The grass is always greener I suspect.
  • gozur88 9y ago
    I think it's understandable. They see parts they like and either ignore or don't know about the rest. The most anti-communist places you'll find are in Eastern Europe where the old people remember going through sub-zero winters without heat.
    • jrochkind1 9y ago
      > The most anti-communist places you'll find are in Eastern Europe I'm not totally sure that's still true. It might be. But I think a lot of people are now nostalgic for communism after living what is apparently the alternative for them. The most anti-communist people I know, though, are definitely some people in _the U.S._ from Eastern European countries, who moved here before or shortly after the end of communism. (I also know some people in the U.S. from Russia especially who are not particularly anti-communist. Russia definitely had it better than most other soviet bloc). (Also, the very poor seldom get to immigrate to the U.S. from Eastern Europe either before or after communism, immigrants are not a representative sample. Although I knew a lot of poor-ish undocumented immigrant Poles in Chicago in the late 90s. They weren't particularly anti-communist by and large.) But yeah, the grass is often greener, as they say.
  • oh_sigh 9y ago
    I see it as sort of the same thing as when, say, a city-dweller reveres deer and thinks they are somewhat magical, because they only have intellectual knowledge of deer. Whereas, take a rural-dweller, and they usually see deer as a nuisance and pest.
  • topspin 9y ago
• aiyodev 9y ago
  Of course it's free. That's how slavery works. Slaves get everything provided for them but have no freedom to profit from their labor or improve their conditions.
  • throwawayknecht 9y ago
    That is not how slavery as practiced in North America, including Cuba, worked. You didn't get things "provided", you got absolute subsistence (or less) during your most productive years.
• colomon 9y ago
  Okay, just for fun I punched this into a loan calculator. Assume the cost of their medical education is $200,000. (Everything here is USD.) A ten-year loan at 10% interest would require paying $2,643.01 a month. According to the article, the Cuban government is making about $2,700 a month on each doctor in Brazil. So even if you factor in free medical education, it's hard to argue the doctors still owe the Cuban government something 10 years after getting their degree.
  • varjag 9y ago
    However the cost of their medical education, while certainly substantial by Cuban standards, is nowhere near that.
    • colomon 9y ago
      I am willing to believe that, but I don't have any way to calculate what the number should be, so I took a generous estimate. (Average US post-medical school debt is $18x,000 according to a quick search I did.)
      • varjag 9y ago
        Cuban education lacks major cost components like practice/internship insurance and U.S. level income healthcare professionals in the teaching: their professors are also paid $30/mo. They also have no top-tier equipment, use run-down facilities, don't stick to expensive regulations and protocols and (if their communism is anything like communism of the place I grew up) most likely employ the students for all kind of maintenance chores. I'd put it at $20k tops for 6 year curriculum, and that's being on very generous side.
        • colomon 9y ago
          Well, working with your assumption, $20,000 loan 10% interest over FIVE years is $424.94 a month. Somehow I doubt all the Cuba-defenders here are going to accept your assumption, though, as it makes the outrageousness of the whole thing much more explicit.
• kryptiskt 9y ago
  Is it free if it sets you up for working for 900 dollars a month in the best case for a mid-thirties medical professional? Or working for a complete pittance at home? Seems to me that there are pretty horrid strings attached to that deal. I can feel for their plight.
• ameister14 9y ago
  >Seems weird to come from a country which is explicitly organized around giving everybody a chance to succeed Is that what Cuba is organized around?
• panarky 9y ago
  Earlier this year I visited Cuba and rented a room from cardiologist and his family. He explained that the results of the Cuban system are mixed. On the one hand, literacy and life expectancy are way up since the revolution. On the other hand, cardiologists need to rent rooms to people like me to afford their simple life. He recognized the deficiencies of their system, but he thought they were outweighed by the benefits.
  • taw55 9y ago
    You find this mixed reaction in a lot of former communist countries, both capitalist and communist institutions have a vested interest in maintining a cartoon dichotomy.
  • briandear 9y ago
    But everyone’s life expectancy and literacy is up since the revolution. Comparing 1940 Cuba with 2017 Cuba isn’t even useful, regardless of political system.
  • turk184 9y ago
    But he thought wrong. There is absolutely no comparison in the standard of living in Cuba to the western world. None whatsoever. Cast whatever aspersions you like about it, the fact remains.
• microcolonel 9y ago
  > Seems weird to come from a country which is explicitly organized around giving everybody a chance to succeed and then upon success saying, yeah but I don't like paying for it. Succeed at what? What success do they gain from being a doctor in a country which prevents them from being rewarded for it? Their returns are fixed by the government, and even when they're working overseas (earning way more money) the government is kind enough to even it out. It may surprise you, but it is hard work to be a doctor. These folks are basically forced to work however long is required by the state in a country where they're probably not even allowed on the internet, with a government which was built on tricking peasant farmers into willing their land to a psychopathic dictator who killed everyone who got in his way. The conditions they work under have every feature of slavery, even if the clothes they put on look professional. A 34 y/o American doctor, even if they are somehow still paying off school, had the personal opportunity to take on that burden. Every working person in Cuba, peasants, mechanics, and seamstresses alike, takes on the burden of training you as a doctor. Everyone, including the doctor, spends their entire life paying it off.
  • BadassFractal 9y ago
    Watch out, this goes against the oh so currently hot narrative that capitalism is bad and the government providing "to each according to his needs" is the silver bullet.
    • microcolonel 9y ago
      Take a picture of a street in Cuba, look at the buildings, the vehicles if it's a nice one. Every nice thing (or thing that looks like it was once nice) you see in the picture was produced by capital markets; and it looks like the 1940s because because the capital markets stopped functioning in the 1940s.
    • dang 9y ago
      Would you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to HN?
  • deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
• koonsolo 9y ago
  Do you have a shortage of toilet paper in US? If you think this question is weird, then you don't have the slightest idea of how things work in Cuba. And if you want a proper education system, take a look at Europe.
• alexanderstears 9y ago
  That is the whole point but the social contract in a communist society is one that you can't really get ahead through working harder / smarter - at least not as dramatically so as one can in a capitalist country. Though that's not to say that no one gets ahead in communist societies, just that those who do tend to get ahead on their ability to amass political power. And there's a nugget about income inequality here - Cuba has reduced income inequality by making people more similarly poor. Doctors and managers live side by side with laborers and cooks. Maybe that's good for society, but the average Cuban lives like an American at the federal poverty line. Americans are unequally rich - our poorest are poorer and worse off then the average Cuban but the median American is richer than the median Cuban and the average American is much better off then the average Cuban. It might be too utilitarian for humanitarians but I don't think income inequality matters on its face. My life wouldn't be worse if there were 10x as many billionaires, in fact, it'd probably be better because those billionaires would have created great things to earn their fortunes - if they earned their fortunes giving humanity cheap power and better health care and tastier, more nutrious food we'd be much better off. I think the KPI to target is poverty - I simply want fewer poor people to be poor. There's a role for a better safety net, and probably some tweaks to laws that infringe upon the right to work, but historically redistribution works once in society and then you run out of other people's money.
  • emodendroket 9y ago
    The comparison to the United States seems meaningless. Of more interest is how Cuba compares to pre-revolutionary Cuba or to capitalist countries with more similar characteristics as far as population and resources. How well do people live in Cuba compared to, say, the Dominican Republic? I'm not sure of the answer but none of the Caribbean islands (even Puerto Rico) really have US mainland-like economic output or standards of living. Trinidad and Tobago is supposed to be a success story but I'm not sure how it compares.
• loco5niner 9y ago
  > a country which is explicitly organized around giving everybody a chance to succeed Are we talking about the same Cuba?
• turk184 9y ago
  I don't think you and I agree on what "free" means.