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I live in Delhi and during peek summer time (April to June) 3-4 hour power cuts are routine, sometimes due to load shedding and sometimes due to faults. But tha

I live in Delhi and during peek summer time (April to June) 3-4 hour power cuts are routine, sometimes due to load shedding and sometimes due to faults. But that's not the horrible part since we have battery backup (known as Inverters) that can provide power for 6-8 hours. The horrible part is that during nighttime the voltage goes as low as 160 volts and the frequency drops too, as a result most critical cooling devices like fridges and ACs don't function at all. As more and more people in a locality install voltage regulators or stabilizers, they draw large currents and trip the transformers, sometimes dozens of times in an hour. I've also spent several years in tier two cities, where 8-10 hour power cuts are part of normal life and smaller towns where a failure can cause week-long power cut. I know with surety that large parts of the National Capital Region (NCR) have massive power cuts. Housing societies and businesses run large diesel generators charging 3-4x the normal rate and causing immense pollution. This is only half the story, the story of low power supply. Then there is power theft. I don't have exact figures but when I used to go to the billing office for paying our meager bill of a few hundred rupees, I saw pending bills of hundred of thousands rupees. People hadn't paid their bills for decades. Occasionally there would be raids and the defaulters' power would be disconnected, then they would hook up to the power lines illegally for some time and then get the connections back under some amnesty scheme. It remains to be seen where the power to 'electrify' all households come from and who'll actually foot the bill for the 'free' connections and the lifetime free electricity.

helloindia 9y ago
All Indians know that free things by govt can only be bought by bribing officials.
PietdeVries 9y ago
More than 40 million households - about a quarter of all in the country - are yet to be electrified and about 300 million of India’s 1.3 billion people are still not hooked up to the grid. Soo.... The article suggests that there are roughly 4x40 million = 160 million households in the country, and 1.3 billion people. Divide the one by the other and you get an estimate for the household size of roughly 10 people. That seems rather larger to me, also given the fact that large IT cities like Bangalore are growing like crazy - all with one or two people in an appartment, not 10. Next, getting 40 million households hooked up to the electricity network for 2.5 billion dollar. Dividing again gives 2500 dollar per 40 households or 60 dollar per house. While labor is cheap in India - this is not going to work. And indeed: 40 million more housholds (or 300 million more Indians with access to electricity) is not going to do the networks much good...
- pmorici 9y ago
  Are homeless people counted as part of a household?
- kinj28 9y ago
  Just to correct the given( assumption): some households are already with 24X7 power
- kungito 9y ago
  I would guess people who are part of IT sector are less than 1% of the population and don't affect the statistic
  - itissid 9y ago
    How much employment is generated by all of IT? TCS is the largest employer employing ‎385,809 people as said on the wiki. Assuming ALL of them are in India. Assuming there are 10 TCS like IT companies, it gets you to 3.85 Million people employed. That's not even a dent in the # people affected by IT living where ever.
- w458cmau 9y ago
  Households in IT in Bangalore were shared with around 4 or more afaik when I was living there in 2009. Monthly salaries were around ~300 USD which was not enough for most to comfortably live in their own apartment.
- bogomipz 9y ago
  http://censusindia.gov.in/Census_Data_2001/Census_data_finder/H_Series/Household_Size.htm http://censusindia.gov.in/Census_Data_2001/Census_data_finde...
thriftwy 9y ago
I have read a short story as child where they had exactly that with electricity, and then they all died due to air pollution. It is strange that voltage drops in the night. Go figure, I thought in the night there is usually overgeneration.
puranjay 9y ago
A huge voltage spike in Jaipur once fried two ACs, one microwave, and one small fridge among other electrical items. Cost my dad over 50k to replace/repair everything. This is a huge problem even now
- leog7 9y ago
  I agree i stay near mumbai n problem is not electricity but reliable electricity
- jee1shi 9y ago
  You should invest in some surge protectors, the fuses are cheap and simple to replace. Use them on any high-value items you wouldn't want to replace.
  - thinkythought 9y ago
    You would need a nicer spike protector or isolation transformer(s) to do anything here, honestly. a basic surge protector wouldn't cut it
- consp 9y ago
  It sounds like there is enough power to go around but insufficient regulation and buffers and they are relying on non-variable power sources which cause either the frequency to vary or the voltage to go up and down when load changes. Where I used to live (in Europe) this sometimes happened , which resulted in power outages, not damage due to safety precautions like sure protectors. But they fixed it when the windmills came along which are quite variable in power delivery and apparently upgraded the net to compensate for this. Haven't had a lot of outages since (changed from about 4-6 times a year to once every 4-6 years). It sounds like a cheap political hit to me. Just give everyone power and they can say 'we did it' but since it is barely usable nothing has changed. edit: clarifications
ramshanker 9y ago
My friends in Power industry tell that India is a power surplus country now. That is a prerequisite to offering this kind of scheme and it's good news.
- kamaal 9y ago
  >>India is a power surplus country now. In summer. Bangalore sees 2 - 4 hours of rolling power cuts due to shortage. Your friend needs to supply his secret power surplus into the grid for the benefit of all of us.
  - vthallam 9y ago
    India is technically a power surplus country. The distribution is owned by the states, perhaps, you should question the Karnataka Govt.There is a mobile app where you can see the available power in India if the state can't meet needs, all they have to do is, buy power. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.cxb.powerapp&hl=en https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.cxb.powera...
  - hef19898 9y ago
    Sounds more like network over-loads and distribution issues than overall power shortages to me. Both result in power outages, yet are different fish to fry.
  - Dylan16807 9y ago
    Even beside economic and pricing issues that can eat away at percents, a perfectly managed system could have surplus 20 hours of the day and a deficit 4 hours a day. You need significant excess power to avoid blackouts in a world without very cheap batteries.
    - kamaal 9y ago
      That is the very definition of shortage. We are sure not discussing things like peak load capacity here.
geezerjay 9y ago
> since we have battery backup (known as Inverters) Just to nitpick, I don't believe they are called that. Inverters are devices that convert direct current to alternate current. They don't provide power. They just convert the power supplied by batteries to a usable format.
- devnonymous 9y ago
  Just to nitpick :) but I think the reason inverters was mentioned in brackets was to inform that they are commonly (although incorrectly) called inverters in Delhi. The reason being you don't just buy the inverters by themselves you almost always buy along with batteries.
  - geezerjay 9y ago
    Fair enough. I see your point.
  - Brakenshire 9y ago
    The powerwall also has inverter and battery packaged together.
nradov 9y ago
Could someone explain why the frequency drops during heavy load? The voltage drop makes sense but I would think the frequency would remain fixed because the power plant generators still spin at the same RPM.
- pjc50 9y ago
  Not necessarily, no - the generator speed is a function of input shaft power versus demanded electrical power, and if the power plant can't or won't increase the feed of coal/gas and hence steam to the turbines, the generators will slow down. (In most countries you can see a little bit of a frequency dip at times of high demand. It also has the effect of reducing the power draw by synchronous AC motors.)
  - Symbiote 9y ago
    As an example, this site shows information about the British power grid. The frequency is currently 50.034Hz, at some point it will be below 50Hz to keep the average at 50Hz. http://gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ http://gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
  - Reason077 9y ago
    That's right. Grid frequency in the UK can be used as a signal indicating the real-time balance of supply and demand. When the frequency drops below 50Hz, it suggests that demand is outpacing supply, and vice-versa when the frequency is above 50Hz. Grid voltage can vary due to your location and all sorts of factors, but frequency is, of course, always synchronised wherever you are. National Grid pays a lot of money for "frequency response" to ensure the grid remains balanced. Traditionally this was provided largely by coal spinning reserve. But as most coal-fired plants have now closed, it's now provided by diesel farms (yuck!) and increasingly, battery storage. http://www2.nationalgrid.com/uk/services/balancing-services/frequency-response/ http://www2.nationalgrid.com/uk/services/balancing-services/...
    - Caveman_Coder 9y ago
      > "When the frequency drops below 50Hz, it suggests that demand is outpacing supply, and vice-versa when the frequency is above 50Hz." As a former Transmission System Operator I can tell you the most likely scenario you see this is when generation trips offline (demand exceeds supply for a short time). I've sat in an Arizona control room, 1700MW of NW hydro would trip offline and we'd see a massive drop in interconnect frequency.
teja1990 9y ago
I agree that power shortage is real, but what PM Modi is trying to achieve is spreading electricity to all parts of India.There are still millions in India without access to power, so the scheme is about giving them an electricity connection. > It remains to be seen where the power to 'electrify' all households come from and who'll actually foot the bill for the 'free' connections and the lifetime free electricity.' I don't think the later part of this statement is true, govt is only providing free connection not free electricity. Also, India is 3rd largest producer of power after China and USA, however it stands 105 when it comes to per capita consumption. The problem in India is not power supply, its the transmission, India hasn't invested much on transmission lines, as a result its paying the price now.
- kamaal 9y ago
  >>I agree that power shortage is real, but what PM Modi is trying to achieve is spreading electricity to all parts of India. How do you spread non-existent electricity uniformly to all parts of India. Last time I checked 0/anything is 0. Unless you are saying the prime minister has found a way to defeat laws of mathematics or can magically pull out energy out of thin air. Frankly speaking I wouldn't be surprised if you believe in this too. Given how much this government is about Marketing. >>so the scheme is about giving them an electricity connection. The scheme is nothing. They announce these schemes every few years and then junk them, because of the infeasibility of executing projects of this scale. >>The problem in India is not power supply, its the transmission. Its more on the generation part. Rolling power cuts are common during summer even in cities.
  - pgeorgi 9y ago
    > Its more on the generation part. Rolling power cuts are common during summer even in cities. I don't know what part of the infrastructure is to blame in India, but rolling power cuts can be caused by all parts, not just a lack on the generator side. Without a sufficient transmission infrastructure, it doesn't matter if the generators even provides 100% of the required energy, some of it will go to waste (or at best: they run at fractional load) and you will still see blackouts simply because the generated energy isn't ending up where it's needed.
X86BSD 9y ago
I've been to NCR, my wife is from there. I find this effort laughable considering the lack of infrastructure and absolutely ZERO building codes including electrical codes. They need 1) electrical codes, 2) building codes, 3) where is the power coming from?

helloindia 9y ago

All Indians know that free things by govt can only be bought by bribing officials.

PietdeVries 9y ago

More than 40 million households - about a quarter of all in the country - are yet to be electrified and about 300 million of India’s 1.3 billion people are still not hooked up to the grid. Soo.... The article suggests that there are roughly 4x40 million = 160 million households in the country, and 1.3 billion people. Divide the one by the other and you get an estimate for the household size of roughly 10 people. That seems rather larger to me, also given the fact that large IT cities like Bangalore are growing like crazy - all with one or two people in an appartment, not 10. Next, getting 40 million households hooked up to the electricity network for 2.5 billion dollar. Dividing again gives 2500 dollar per 40 households or 60 dollar per house. While labor is cheap in India - this is not going to work. And indeed: 40 million more housholds (or 300 million more Indians with access to electricity) is not going to do the networks much good...

pmorici 9y ago
Are homeless people counted as part of a household?
kinj28 9y ago
Just to correct the given( assumption): some households are already with 24X7 power
kungito 9y ago
I would guess people who are part of IT sector are less than 1% of the population and don't affect the statistic
- itissid 9y ago
  How much employment is generated by all of IT? TCS is the largest employer employing ‎385,809 people as said on the wiki. Assuming ALL of them are in India. Assuming there are 10 TCS like IT companies, it gets you to 3.85 Million people employed. That's not even a dent in the # people affected by IT living where ever.
w458cmau 9y ago
Households in IT in Bangalore were shared with around 4 or more afaik when I was living there in 2009. Monthly salaries were around ~300 USD which was not enough for most to comfortably live in their own apartment.
bogomipz 9y ago
http://censusindia.gov.in/Census_Data_2001/Census_data_finder/H_Series/Household_Size.htm http://censusindia.gov.in/Census_Data_2001/Census_data_finde...

thriftwy 9y ago

I have read a short story as child where they had exactly that with electricity, and then they all died due to air pollution. It is strange that voltage drops in the night. Go figure, I thought in the night there is usually overgeneration.

puranjay 9y ago

A huge voltage spike in Jaipur once fried two ACs, one microwave, and one small fridge among other electrical items. Cost my dad over 50k to replace/repair everything. This is a huge problem even now

leog7 9y ago
I agree i stay near mumbai n problem is not electricity but reliable electricity
jee1shi 9y ago
You should invest in some surge protectors, the fuses are cheap and simple to replace. Use them on any high-value items you wouldn't want to replace.
- thinkythought 9y ago
  You would need a nicer spike protector or isolation transformer(s) to do anything here, honestly. a basic surge protector wouldn't cut it
consp 9y ago
It sounds like there is enough power to go around but insufficient regulation and buffers and they are relying on non-variable power sources which cause either the frequency to vary or the voltage to go up and down when load changes. Where I used to live (in Europe) this sometimes happened , which resulted in power outages, not damage due to safety precautions like sure protectors. But they fixed it when the windmills came along which are quite variable in power delivery and apparently upgraded the net to compensate for this. Haven't had a lot of outages since (changed from about 4-6 times a year to once every 4-6 years). It sounds like a cheap political hit to me. Just give everyone power and they can say 'we did it' but since it is barely usable nothing has changed. edit: clarifications

ramshanker 9y ago

My friends in Power industry tell that India is a power surplus country now. That is a prerequisite to offering this kind of scheme and it's good news.

kamaal 9y ago
>>India is a power surplus country now. In summer. Bangalore sees 2 - 4 hours of rolling power cuts due to shortage. Your friend needs to supply his secret power surplus into the grid for the benefit of all of us.
- vthallam 9y ago
  India is technically a power surplus country. The distribution is owned by the states, perhaps, you should question the Karnataka Govt.There is a mobile app where you can see the available power in India if the state can't meet needs, all they have to do is, buy power. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.cxb.powerapp&hl=en https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.cxb.powera...
- hef19898 9y ago
  Sounds more like network over-loads and distribution issues than overall power shortages to me. Both result in power outages, yet are different fish to fry.
- Dylan16807 9y ago
  Even beside economic and pricing issues that can eat away at percents, a perfectly managed system could have surplus 20 hours of the day and a deficit 4 hours a day. You need significant excess power to avoid blackouts in a world without very cheap batteries.
  - kamaal 9y ago
    That is the very definition of shortage. We are sure not discussing things like peak load capacity here.

geezerjay 9y ago

> since we have battery backup (known as Inverters) Just to nitpick, I don't believe they are called that. Inverters are devices that convert direct current to alternate current. They don't provide power. They just convert the power supplied by batteries to a usable format.

devnonymous 9y ago
Just to nitpick :) but I think the reason inverters was mentioned in brackets was to inform that they are commonly (although incorrectly) called inverters in Delhi. The reason being you don't just buy the inverters by themselves you almost always buy along with batteries.
- geezerjay 9y ago
  Fair enough. I see your point.
- Brakenshire 9y ago
  The powerwall also has inverter and battery packaged together.

nradov 9y ago

Could someone explain why the frequency drops during heavy load? The voltage drop makes sense but I would think the frequency would remain fixed because the power plant generators still spin at the same RPM.

pjc50 9y ago
Not necessarily, no - the generator speed is a function of input shaft power versus demanded electrical power, and if the power plant can't or won't increase the feed of coal/gas and hence steam to the turbines, the generators will slow down. (In most countries you can see a little bit of a frequency dip at times of high demand. It also has the effect of reducing the power draw by synchronous AC motors.)
- Symbiote 9y ago
  As an example, this site shows information about the British power grid. The frequency is currently 50.034Hz, at some point it will be below 50Hz to keep the average at 50Hz. http://gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ http://gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
- Reason077 9y ago
  That's right. Grid frequency in the UK can be used as a signal indicating the real-time balance of supply and demand. When the frequency drops below 50Hz, it suggests that demand is outpacing supply, and vice-versa when the frequency is above 50Hz. Grid voltage can vary due to your location and all sorts of factors, but frequency is, of course, always synchronised wherever you are. National Grid pays a lot of money for "frequency response" to ensure the grid remains balanced. Traditionally this was provided largely by coal spinning reserve. But as most coal-fired plants have now closed, it's now provided by diesel farms (yuck!) and increasingly, battery storage. http://www2.nationalgrid.com/uk/services/balancing-services/frequency-response/ http://www2.nationalgrid.com/uk/services/balancing-services/...
  - Caveman_Coder 9y ago
    > "When the frequency drops below 50Hz, it suggests that demand is outpacing supply, and vice-versa when the frequency is above 50Hz." As a former Transmission System Operator I can tell you the most likely scenario you see this is when generation trips offline (demand exceeds supply for a short time). I've sat in an Arizona control room, 1700MW of NW hydro would trip offline and we'd see a massive drop in interconnect frequency.

teja1990 9y ago

I agree that power shortage is real, but what PM Modi is trying to achieve is spreading electricity to all parts of India.There are still millions in India without access to power, so the scheme is about giving them an electricity connection. > It remains to be seen where the power to 'electrify' all households come from and who'll actually foot the bill for the 'free' connections and the lifetime free electricity.' I don't think the later part of this statement is true, govt is only providing free connection not free electricity. Also, India is 3rd largest producer of power after China and USA, however it stands 105 when it comes to per capita consumption. The problem in India is not power supply, its the transmission, India hasn't invested much on transmission lines, as a result its paying the price now.

kamaal 9y ago
>>I agree that power shortage is real, but what PM Modi is trying to achieve is spreading electricity to all parts of India. How do you spread non-existent electricity uniformly to all parts of India. Last time I checked 0/anything is 0. Unless you are saying the prime minister has found a way to defeat laws of mathematics or can magically pull out energy out of thin air. Frankly speaking I wouldn't be surprised if you believe in this too. Given how much this government is about Marketing. >>so the scheme is about giving them an electricity connection. The scheme is nothing. They announce these schemes every few years and then junk them, because of the infeasibility of executing projects of this scale. >>The problem in India is not power supply, its the transmission. Its more on the generation part. Rolling power cuts are common during summer even in cities.
- pgeorgi 9y ago
  > Its more on the generation part. Rolling power cuts are common during summer even in cities. I don't know what part of the infrastructure is to blame in India, but rolling power cuts can be caused by all parts, not just a lack on the generator side. Without a sufficient transmission infrastructure, it doesn't matter if the generators even provides 100% of the required energy, some of it will go to waste (or at best: they run at fractional load) and you will still see blackouts simply because the generated energy isn't ending up where it's needed.

X86BSD 9y ago

I've been to NCR, my wife is from there. I find this effort laughable considering the lack of infrastructure and absolutely ZERO building codes including electrical codes. They need 1) electrical codes, 2) building codes, 3) where is the power coming from?