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NASA Designed a Low-Tech Rover to Survive Venus
- ChuckMcM 9y agoWho knew steam punk would come in handy :-) Seriously though it is an excellent thought experiment to design a purely mechanical rover. The concept of using a windmill to wind a spring is pretty neat, although at 850 degrees its going to be a challenge to find a spring material.
- dsfyu404ed 9y ago>although at 850 degrees its going to be a challenge to find a spring material. Google "Exhaust heat riser" A spring that provides many years of useful service when exposed to high temperatures isn't a very exotic part. NASA probably isn't trying to make it go 5yr/50,000mi without failing so they can probably come up with something that works well for the duration of the mission.
- ChuckMcM 9y agoAlthough most heat risers seem to simply be a bi-metal allow which changes shape when hot. The article discusses winding springs much like a clock maker would use. That said, a bit of searching did find Iconel 718 springs which are good up to 1000 degrees. Not a lot of margin but probably workable. Since people has developed techniques for 3D printing Iconel 718 it seems like that problem at least is workable. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNk_T82iuHM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNk_T82iuHM
- WillReplyfFood 9y agoWhy not make the robot a worm, that drills beneath the ground after arriving in a impactor? All the samples you need, with only a part of the pressure and none of the toxic atmosphere? I know it would not make scenic photos- and take forever to get anywhere- but it would last.
- masklinn 9y agoDigging machines are quite complex and prone to failure (that is one area where humanity is basically nowhere compared to biologicals), you'd have trouble exfiltering the information, and packing the analysis ware would be even more difficult than in a surface rover.
- rtkwe 9y agoWe are fairly far behind but nature does have it a bit easier because animals are making much smaller holes through dirt and soil instead of solid rock like most human tunnels want to go through. Also they can just avoid any particularly difficult areas and move somewhere else.
- rtkwe 9y agoBurrowing through anything other than loosely packed soil by necessity creates a larger volume of tailings than the original rock which has to be constantly cleared to the surface. Packing a useful science lab into a robot small enough to burrow through loose top soil on Venus (which may or may not be very deep or even really exist since we know very little about the surface of Venus) would be difficult to impossible. Second in the case of going through hard rock via drilling, the drill teeth have a limited life span and would be extremely difficult to replace in an automated way.
- WillReplyfFood 9y agoDrilling by teeth for the first 10 meters- drilling by heat-cold fracturing with liquids for the rest?
- rtkwe 9y agoWon't that require huge amounts of energy and a lot of whatever fluid you're using? Also that still leaves dealing with the tailings.
- mturmon 9y agoPress release with a bit more on the design: https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/a-clockwork-rover-for-venus https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/a-clockwork-rover-for-venus The WIRED article has errors. They got the PI's name wrong. They also say this about communications: "the Venus rover will use a simple optical reflector to transmit its data to orbiting satellites by flashing radar light like morse code" This is misleading in a couple of ways. The rover in the link above appears to use radar targets which turn on wheels; an orbiter would bounce radio off the target to determine their configuration.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- yincrash 9y agoA better analogy might be that it's akin to signal flags.
- criddell 9y agoDid ancient Earth have a more Venus-like atmosphere? If not, what's responsible for the difference? Is it due to the extra solar energy that Venus receives?
- brianberns 9y agoRunaway greenhouse effect due to high levels of atmospheric CO2.
- criddell 9y agoDoes that also explain the corrosive nature of the atmosphere?
- mturmon 9y agoShort story is that the well-known sulfuric acid clouds are produced by plentiful CO2 combining in the atmosphere with trace SO2 and H2O gases. The high temperatures prevent the CO2 and SO2 from being captured into minerals, as they are on Earth. More: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Venus#Clouds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Venus#Clouds
- phkahler 9y agoThis caused me to search for very high temperature semiconductors. It turns out there are some rated for 300 to 400C operation. This mission seems to require 450C+ but that's close. This seems like another area where RISC-V would be very beneficial, as the companies that make very high temperature chips could benefit greatly from an open instruction set with simple free designs. One company had 8051s rated over 200C, but that arch is a bit dated.
- ars 9y agoI wonder if it would be easier to find discrete components that work at high temperature. And use a vacuum tube instead of a transistor - vacuum tubes can handle high temperature easily. Put all of them in a single strong container instead of using lots of fragile glass in a high pressure environment. And you won't need to heat the emitter, saving weight.
- libria 9y agoTo hell with it. Let's just ship it with a miniature Babbage engine and finally give it the practical application it deserves.
- TheOtherHobbes 9y agoPerhaps there are environments where life evolved to use mechanical instead of biochemical computation. If there are, it might feel completely at home on Venus.
- mozumder 9y agoDon't forget you're also adding heat from operations in addition to ambient temperature. I can easily see junction temperatures reach 500+ C.
- crispyambulance 9y agoI thought one idea for Venus was to have a balloon with a gondola that would float high in the atmosphere, that way it wouldn't have to handle extreme temperature and it would just need to deal with the occasional sulfuric acid thunderstorm!
- rdtsc 9y agoI heard that but then I wonder how much better is that than just a space station.
- curtis 9y agoI find the idea of an essentially clockwork rover really interesting but from a practical standpoint I still think the ideal rover for Venus would be like a cross between an submersible and an airship. When the rover starts to run out of coolant it would inflate the airbag, rise up to about the one atmosphere level (50km?), use solar power to replace the coolant, then descend again for another ground mission. And since the venusian atmosphere is about 5% nitrogen, nitrogen seems like the ideal coolant, and, on top of that, it's probably the ideal lift gas for Venus as well. This is because pure gaseous nitrogen is considerably less dense than gaseous carbon dioxide.
- methodover 9y agoI wonder if we should be exploring the atmosphere of Venus instead anyway. My understanding is the best chance of life is in the upper atmosphere anyway.
- jychang 9y agoUhh, an airship? On a planet with winds at 350kmph? That sounds like a horrible idea.
- azernik 9y agoThey'll move you along, but as long as there's little turbulence or wind shear, it won't damage anything. And given that the wind moves in a consistent direction and speed varies mostly just with altitude, I doubt there's much of either.
- KGIII 9y agoThey aren't the first to propose it, though I haven't seen anyone suggest it go to the surface. NASA's proposal: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Altitude_Venus_Operational_Concept https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Altitude_Venus_Operatio... I am fond of the name HAVOC.
- elihu 9y agoAccording to wikipedia, winds are pretty slow near the surface. Strong winds at high altitudes might be a problem if there's turbulence, but if there isn't it's probably okay. > Thermal inertia and the transfer of heat by winds in the lower atmosphere mean that the temperature of Venus's surface does not vary significantly between the night and day sides, despite Venus's extremely slow rotation. Winds at the surface are slow, moving at a few kilometres per hour, but because of the high density of the atmosphere at the surface, they exert a significant amount of force against obstructions, and transport dust and small stones across the surface. This alone would make it difficult for a human to walk through, even if the heat, pressure, and lack of oxygen were not a problem. ... > The only appreciable variation in temperature occurs with altitude. The highest point on Venus, Maxwell Montes, is therefore the coolest point on Venus, with a temperature of about 655 K (380 °C; 715 °F) and an atmospheric pressure of about 4.5 MPa (45 bar). ... > Strong 300 km/h (185 mph) winds at the cloud tops go around Venus about every four to five Earth days. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus#Atmosphere_and_climate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus#Atmosphere_and_climate Given the thickness of the atmosphere, maybe the most sensible form of locomotion on the surface is to just let the wind carry you along...
- nradov 9y agoWe previously discussed an IEEE Spectrum article on the same rover. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14965655 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14965655
- dzdt 9y agoSee this page on extreme temperature electronics for a good discussion of what is available on the electronics side. The short answer is, there are discrete components that have been demonstrated to temperatures higher than Venus's 460C but little commercially available. In particular no integrated circuits. http://www.extremetemperatureelectronics.com/tutorial1.html http://www.extremetemperatureelectronics.com/tutorial1.html
- skykooler 9y ago> Those treads are powered via a wind turbine that captures the planet’s whipping wind gusts This seems odd to me - Venus has high wind speeds in the upper atmosphere, but on the surface the winds are only one or two m/s. Is that enough to wind a spring?
- philipkglass 9y agoYes, because atmospheric density at the surface of Venus is 67 kg/m^3m, about 55 times as dense as sea level atmosphere on Earth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Venus#Troposphere https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Venus#Tropospher...
- milesokeefe 9y agoWith sufficient gear reduction any wind at all is enough to wind a spring, albeit slowly.
- bad_alloc 9y agoWikipedia says: > Savonius turbines are used whenever cost or reliability is much more important than efficiency. The German article is a bit more detailed and claims that Savonius tubines are effective at speeds as low as 2m/s and produce high torque even then. Maybe the high pressure on Venus increases this effect?
- kwoff 9y agoIt's this kind of research into extremes that drives technology forward. Let's explore Venus!
- api 9y agoI wonder if a vacuum tube computer could survive Venusian temperatures if it was built out of the right materials?
- turk184 9y agoI don't think vacuum tubes would be better than solid state electronics at those high pressures.
- shookness 9y agoI used to do research in a lab which studied extreme temperature electronics using Silicon Carbide CMOS. These electronics are able to handle over 450 C ambient temperatures and may be able to survive in the Venusian atmosphere with minimal shielding. Looks like they started a company and have funding for jet engine electronics. http://news.uark.edu/articles/39133/ozark-integrated-circuits-receives-750-000-award-from-air-force http://news.uark.edu/articles/39133/ozark-integrated-circuit... http://www.ozarkic.com/our-services/high-temperature/ http://www.ozarkic.com/our-services/high-temperature/
- bad_alloc 9y agoThis is a great example of space exploration that could produce technology relevant for applications on Earth: If you have a complex machine that can do usefuk work on Venus, you can use a similar concept for ultra-durable equipment here. Stuff like this could be relevant for deep sea exploration, nuclear applications, mining and so on.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- holmak 9y agoWhy not just design for deep sea exploration or nuclear applications directly? It's a heck of a lot cheaper to test prototypes in the ocean than on Venus.
- wallace_f 9y agoIf your objective is space exploration, the poster is just saying it's a good example of how positive externalities can easily come from it.
- Animats 9y agoMaybe it can rove around on wind power and gears, but if it can't send pictures back, it's going to be a disappointment.
- narrator 9y agoThe thing about Venus is why bother colonizing it when deep space is more hospitable than the planet's surface?
- krallja 9y agoUnlike space, Venus is made of large amounts of matter.
- baybal2 9y agoJust don't put a lens cap on it.
- DanBC 9y agoIt's a shame you got downvoted, because lens caps were really tricky on the Russia landers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venera#Venera_camera_successes_and_failures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venera#Venera_camera_successes... > The Venera 9 and 10 landers had two cameras each. Only one functioned because the lens covers failed to separate from the second camera on each lander. The design was changed for Venera 11 and 12, but this change made the problem worse and all cameras failed on those missions. Venera 13 and 14 were the only landers on which all cameras worked properly; although unfortunately, the titanium lens cap on Venera 14 landed precisely on the area which was targeted by the soil compression probe.
- baybal2 9y agoYes, the issue was stupidly trivial. They put a very tight fitting steel cap on an aluminium camera housing. They attempted to over-engineer the thing further by adding explosive bolts to it. That also ended in failure (explosives failed to explode as they decomposed long before they were fired). Finally, a dumb solution was devised: to make the cap to fit inside the bezel and be made from titanium. That finally solved the issue. As the aluminium bezel expanded, the cap loosened up, falling out under its own weight. But that didn't account for another instrument sampling area being right under the camera, where the cap were to fall.
- interfixus 9y agoVenus is so strangely ignored and forgotten. Measured against the attention other planets are getting, an orbiting reconnaissance platform with a handfull of atmosphere and surface probes would seem long overdue.
- hawski 9y agoAre Uranus, Neptune and Mercury getting significantly more attention? Personally I feel that Venus is getting more attention that any of them.
- wallace_f 9y agoInterestingly, there is actually a case to be made that Venus may be more feasible to colonize than Mars. It has been argued the lack of attention to Venus has more to due culture than science. PBS Spacetime did an episode on this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ5KV3rzuag https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ5KV3rzuag
- rdtsc 9y agoWell one reason is because it's so hot there there is almost no chance to find life or to build a station there. Also I wonder if it is because the Russians set to explore it, landed a probe on it and all. So maybe then it became uninteresting to follow in their footsteps. Just like the Russians stopped sending rovers to the moon once Americans landed there.
- vacri 9y agoNot just the heat, but also the sulphuric acid rain and the 90atm of pressure. I do find it odd though, that this curious planet with heaps of activity is so often 'passed over' by space nerds. Curiously, the earliest out-of-lab digital photography that I'm aware of was from that Russian probe to Venus in the 70's, which lasted less than an hour in the hostile atmosphere. Photos: https://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/imgcat/html/mission_page/VN_Venera_9_Lander_page1.html https://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/imgcat/html/mission_page/VN_Vene...
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- donquichotte 9y ago> [The new rover] is a great example of counterintuitive problem solving. Instead of packing high-tech electronics into its frame, the scientists are building a mechanical rover that works with minimal electronics. Really? Is that counterintuitive? If you talk to car or motorcycle overland travellers who traverse deserts and remote mountains, you'll find a preference for simple designs that minimize part counts and electronics (for fuel pump, ABS, suspension...) to improve reliability, often at the cost of performance and efficiency.
- aedron 9y agoI am always amazed by the images the USSR missions were able to send back from the Venus surface in the freaking 70's and early 80's [1][2]. For a very long time that were the only 'real' pictures from another planet. So good looking and from such a hostile environment. [1] http://mentallandscape.com/C_Venera_Perspective.jpg http://mentallandscape.com/C_Venera_Perspective.jpg [2] http://mentallandscape.com/C_CatalogVenus.htm http://mentallandscape.com/C_CatalogVenus.htm
- ajsalminen 9y agoViking 1 photographed Mars before this.