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> Safari now uses machine learning to identify advertisers and others who track your online behavior, and removes the cross‑site tracking data they leave behind
by tomp 9y ago
> Safari now uses machine learning to identify advertisers and others who track your online behavior, and removes the cross‑site tracking data they leave behind.
> Safari now uses machine learning to identify advertisers and others who track your online behavior, and removes the cross‑site tracking data they leave behind
I'm starting to like the business model of buying the product more and more.
There was a recent thread somewhere (here, reddit, FB?) asking "What feature would it take for iPhone users to switch to Android?" - the answer for me is, Google changing its business model (or else completely open-sourcing all of Android and all of its core apps (mail, maps, browser).
- vetinari 9y agoIn Android, it is not mandatory to use Google apps - you can use your favorite browser, mail or maps instead of the Google ones. Firefox, Nine or Here, for example.
- Tepix 9y agoYour typical Android phone calls home around 1200 times per day. Getting that number down to zero means making it pretty much unusable.
- vetinari 9y agoThe difference between Android and Google Play Services/Google Apps Suite is, that the latter use Google servers and the former does not. If removing these apps makes Android unusable for you, it means you are hooked on or locked-in to them. Asking for open-sourcing the client parts will not help you anyway, because the server parts are still running on Google servers and you won't be able to replace them.
- wyager 9y ago> Asking for open-sourcing the client parts will not help you anyway, because the server parts are still running on Google servers and you won't be able to replace them. Yes I could, if the average android phone would allow me to do so. You can't go to the store, buy a phone, and remove google play services. At the very least you have to root the phone, which isn't possible on most devices.
- vetinari 9y agoYou can also not put in username and password for a Google account. Without authenticated account, Google Play Services won't work. What you can do, is to install apps or plugins for CalDAV/CardDAV-like services. The account system works with any generic account, not just with Google accounts; you can implement any service you want talking with any protocol you want. You don't need Google Play Services source for that. Removing apks for android installation is cannon for sparrows. Remember, /system is not only for running the system, but also for factory reset/recovery too.
- tomp 9y ago> Asking for open-sourcing the client parts will not help you anyway, because the server parts are still running on Google servers and you won't be able to replace them. It wouldn't be ideal, but a big improvement. Providing a clear API to Store, Maps, Mail, etc. would (1) allow developers to publish their own client for these services (that e.g. don't display ads, or don't track the user, or obfuscate/anonymise the information they send to the servers), and (2) allow competing backends to be developed and allow the users to choose between them without having to change the mobile OS.
- vetinari 9y agoSo you want to use their back end with your front end, and remove their monetization? Why would they even entertain the thought of agreeing to something like that? The much better approach is bring your own backed. E.g. I'm using Sygic (because it is offline and the roaming fees were killing the online maps) and it works in the all places where the original Maps work. If I click in the Booking.com app to navigate to the hotel, for example, Sygic (and other alternate maps) work seamlessly in place of Google Maps. All that without having to use their back end. The APIs for doing that are already there since v1. In other words, (1) developers could publish for years alternative implementations, with any back end that allows that in it's TOS (though Google's doesn't) and (2) this was always possible.
- tomp 9y agoI'm not saying they have to allow that, I'm just saying that's what it would take them to "neutralize" the threat of their business model for users (and become as trustworth as Apple).
- vetinari 9y agoUnfortunately, this is the case of wanting to have a cake and eat it too. That's why I wrote that bringing alternate implementations is a better approach. That way you don't want something for nothing (use Google resources without any compensation; you don't pay them anything after all, but you do pay to Apple).
- j_s 9y ago> the server parts are still running on Google servers and you won't be able to replace them Not sure to what degree replacement is actually possible today, but microG is heading in that direction. https://microg.org/ https://microg.org/ - a free software clone of Google’s proprietary core libraries and applications · Google Play Services or Google Maps Android API (v2) · Google Cloud to Device Messaging · Google’s network location provider Further discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12864429 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12864429 (Nov 2016) and other comments https://hn.algolia.com/?query=microg.org&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?query=microg.org&sort=byDate&type=co...
- avian 9y agoAs a long-time Android user, I'm genuinely curious what those calls home contain. Do you have any links with more information?
- Gaelan 9y agoWhat does that number look like on iOS?
- lern_too_spel 9y agoGetting your iPhone to stop calling Apple and Google would make it unusable as well. The difference is that it's actually impossible to do on an iPhone.
- bitmapbrother 9y ago>Your typical Android phone calls home around 1200 times per day Do you have any proof to back up the claim?
- pjmlp 9y agoI don't know how many times Google Maps calls home, but it does it often enough for Google to know where any Android user that hasn't explicitly disabled location tracking has spent each minute of his/her life. The proof is easy obtainable on Google Maps location history.
- vetinari 9y agoIt doesn't call home with each data point; that would mean that radio is never standby and the user would notice that his battery is quickly dead. No, location history is a _feature_, where saved datapoint set is submitted in batches, when the radio is active. And of course, you can turn it off (I did).
- bitmapbrother 9y agoYou did say 1200 times per day. How did you arrive at this number and what tools did you use to find this out. I would like to verify this.
- pjmlp 9y agoNo I didn't, check the username.
- floatboth 9y agoMy phone with LineageOS + microG is very usable. It does use Google's service for Push Notifications (because I do want them) — with an open source client for that service.
- grecy 9y agoPfft. I bought a super cheap Android phone, and can't even download a single app without signing up for a google account!
- vetinari 9y agoYou mean you cannot download it from Google Play Store? That's right, that's the thing that analyzes you, why would you do that? Instead, use alternatives: https://f-droid.org/ https://f-droid.org/ https://www.amazon.com/getappstore https://www.amazon.com/getappstore http://shouji.baidu.com/ http://shouji.baidu.com/ https://store.yandex.com/ https://store.yandex.com/ or any other store, or just install your favorite apks.
- derefr 9y agoSo sign up for a Google Account. As long as you're not using Google+, there's no requirement that a Google Account have accurate, personally-identifying information. And if it's only used to sign into the Play Store, then all Google will know about "you" is what apps you've downloaded. (And you can sign back out of the Play Store in Settings right after if you want, though you won't be able to retrieve updates then.)
- lern_too_spel 9y agoSure you can. You're free to download from the Amazon App Store or any other app store or even get your apps directly from the developer. You're confusing your cheap Android phone with an expensive iPhone. On the latter, you need an Apple account just to download apps, and their App Store tracks you exactly the same amount as Google's Play Store.
- koolba 9y agoIs that referring to blocking ads or just tracking cookies? Why not just block all third party cookies?
- tomp 9y agoIIRC the idea is that (1) it allows third-party cookies of the websites you actually use (like Facebook so FB integration works), and (2) it allows cookies on new websites for the first day or so, and then it starts blocking them. More info: https://webkit.org/blog/7675/intelligent-tracking-prevention/ https://webkit.org/blog/7675/intelligent-tracking-prevention...
- kccqzy 9y agoApple left ad blocking to third party developers. You can find plenty of ad blocking apps on the App Store. I imagined they did this for political reasons because they don’t want to the arbitrator of deciding whether something is an ad or not.
- raesene6 9y agoI agree, the good thing about Apple and Microsoft is I know what they want to sell me. Apple want me to buy relatively expensive devices on a regular basis and ideally a cloud subscription. Microsoft want me to buy subscriptions to their cloud services and ideally devices running their OS. In both cases the value for them is fairly clear and they have limited incentives to do anything that might jepordise those revenue flows. Companies like Google who (IIRC) get over 90% of their revenue from advertising, need to make money by selling information about me to 3rd parties for advert targeting, which I'm not so keen on. Personally I prefer to pay someone for a product/service directly.
- roblabla 9y agoAnd yet, microsoft started incorporating ads inside of windows 10. The business models helps, but if you can both sell a product and get ad revenue, why wouldn't you ? In apple's case, they have a fairly small but dedicated marketshare that cares deeply about those issue. That's why I trust them to not sabotage their product. Microsoft has a monopoly, they don't need to care.
- baldfat 9y ago> Microsoft has a monopoly How so anymore? There are clear paths to NOT use anything Microsoft if you want to. Microsoft even now has Linux offerings its a new era.
- ginko 9y ago> Microsoft even now has Linux offerings its a new era. If they made a Linux version of Office and ported Direct3D to Linux, I'd be impressed. As such it's just embrace, extend extinguish again.
- baldfat 9y agoYou mean the monopoly is due to Office and DirectX? There are plenty of alternatives still. I only use Outlook due to work but I could also get around that through several ways. Maybe we just have a different definition of monopoly? Definition: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/monopoly https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/monopoly 1 :exclusive ownership through legal privilege, command of supply, or concerted action 2 :exclusive possession or control no country has a monopoly on morality or truth —Helen M. Lynd 3 :a commodity controlled by one party had a monopoly on flint from their quarries —Barbara A. Leitch 4 :one that has a monopoly The government passed laws intended to break up monopolies.
- mavhc 9y agoSonos shows that even if you buy the expensive product they'll still try to exploit your privacy. Only solution is open source everything
- toasterlovin 9y agoApple has publicly committed themselves to certain approaches wrt to privacy. If they fail to act as they have said they will, class action lawsuits will follow shortly.
- lern_too_spel 9y agoNothing prevents you from using a competitor's core apps on Android. Those apps could be even better at stopping tracking than Apple's. On iOS, you're stuck with whatever maps or browser Apple decrees.
- zeveb 9y agoI think this is a really key point: on Android I have the option to install whatever software I like, from whomever I like. There are tradeoffs, of course, but I am free to choose between them. On iOS, I wouldn't have that choice.
- earenndil 9y agoUhmmmm...what? You can install google maps, chrome or firefox (although these don't count because they're just safari skins. But if someone wanted to they could implement real chrome or real firefox for ios.) You can install any number of third-party keyboards, alarm clocks, what-have-you.
- lern_too_spel 9y agoYou can't change which app opens web pages or mail or maps or phone calls or.... https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-change-my-default-browser-in-iOS https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-change-my-default-browser-in-... iOS doesn't allow you to implement a JIT because Apple doesn't trust its OS to have working process isolation, so you actually can't have a real Firefox or Chrome on iOS.
- canes123456 9y agoYou are right that the product comes from the business model. You are however completely wrong about what Google should do. Advertising is not an evil thing that needs to be eliminated. It is a much better revenue source for building services compared to selling hardware. Apple organization is fundamentally built around selling hardware and software as a package for an upfront cost. The organization is design to perfect something than release it. This is 100% at odds with what you need to do with services. You need to iterate all the time and not be trying to perfect something for the new iOS release. Your advice would lead to maps, gmail, etc be becoming worse but their hardware still not keeping up with apple.
- namelost 9y agoPassive advertising is not an evil thing that needs to be eliminated. But when companies start building dossiers on all of us that even intelligence services would be jealous of, that is evil.
- tomp 9y ago> This is 100% at odds with what you need to do with services. You need to iterate all the time and not be trying to perfect something for the new iOS release. This sounds like it _should_ be true, but unfortunately, Apple has a much much better track record of supporting its old devices that Google. So, yeah, the "service" might work, but what help is that if my 3-year old Android phone was hacked yesterday because Google (or OEMs) don't bother patching it any more?
- canes123456 9y agoGoogle business model is advertising. The number of devices it sells is a rounding error.Google is good at services like search, maps, gmail etc.
- pteredactyl 9y agoUnless they mask your IP address I don't see how this removes cross-site tracking.
- jayd16 9y agoSo how many decades are we going to hear about how bad it is that Google knows what kind of toothpaste I like and how important privacy is before we actually see a real world benefit? Can someone point to any situation in the past where the conclusion was "good thing the ads were less targeting to my interests!"
- bzbarsky 9y agohttp://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/magazine/shopping-habits.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/magazine/shopping-habits.h... has an example (Target, not Google) where that could very well be the conclusion, yes (or rather "too bad the ads were targeted so well"). That's off the top of my head, since that one hit the national news pretty widely.
- xenihn 9y ago>Can someone point to any situation in the past where the conclusion was "good thing the ads were less targeting to my interests!" You should be thinking more about the future.
- marricks 9y agoGroups that get more and more power pretty much never give up that power willingly. Google's NEED to understand your desires, track your behavior, and read your emails to sell more and better ads is them accumulating power. So, even if you think Google will always have your best interests at heart, the governments they work with certainly don't. China could exploit their knowledge to target dissidents. Would Google do that? Perhaps, just censoring internet was anathema to Google in their early days, now Google respects Chinese censorship. To be honest, I'm not comfortable with my own government knowing what I want to read online or what I say to my friends, let alone authoritarian ones. The future is pretty much already here on that one though as government already does.
- splicer 9y agoNot exactly from the past, but how do you feel about this scene from Minority Report? https://youtu.be/7bXJ_obaiYQ https://youtu.be/7bXJ_obaiYQ
- 9y ago
- tapanjk 9y agoFrom High Sierra page on apple.com: > Automatically use Safari Reader for every web article that supports it, so you can view websites without ads, navigation, and other distractions. This will come in handy since I hit the reader mode on articles as soon as the page loads and the reader option is enabled. On a side note, I like Firefox too because it has a reader mode built in. While Chrome has plugins to make this happen, having this feature as a first class citizen makes a difference. Of course Chrome has other strengths and I spend a lot of time in it, but I end up using Safari or Firefox for reading on the web.
- stutnh34tnnt 9y agoYes! When I saw this, I leapt for joy! I have been wanting a feature like this. No more having to see modal pop-overs asking me to subscribe their crappy newsletter. It's about time!
- makecheck 9y agoIt’s kind of crazy just how many resources of humankind must be expended to make up for obnoxious behaviors, whether it is burning cycles on ad-blockers or cleaning up other peoples’ garbage. For all the power we have expended, humankind could be so much further along than we are. I wish the people who spent energy making terrible ad experiences would just quit their jobs and apply their talents to something of actual value.
- dnautics 9y agoWhat is 'actual' value and who gets to decide?
- s73ver_ 9y agoSomething that actually benefits society. Something that pushes it forward. You're gonna have to do a pretty amazing job to convince people that ad tech qualifies as that.
- k-mcgrady 9y agoI had ads but playing devils advocate they have given a huge number of people access to technologies they never would have had access to otherwise. They have made entire businesses viable that wouldn’t be as good otherwise.
- Raz2 9y ago
- blinkingled 9y ago> Safari now uses machine learning to identify advertisers and others who track your online behavior, and removes the cross‑site trackingdata they leave behind. Do my Safari Google searches still go via Apple by default though? I guess that's totally ok if you're in Team Apple? It's just sadly naive to believe a corporation has your privacy interests in mind in the absolute.
- jug 9y agoYes, one thing that has probably helped Apple is that their business model aligns with what their users want. Not having to be a weasel about it, not forcing users to just have to live with something. Last thing I saw was Microsoft pushing Edge ads from within Windows 10 itself. Ads – in an operating system?!
- nxc18 9y agoApple also advertises their own services in their OS. My iPhone and MacBook spam me with iCloud ads constantly. This isn't really an excuse for MS. Really I'd just like both operating systems to not bug me.
- stutnh34tnnt 9y agoWhere? I've been using these products for years and have never seen this. I get (too many) notifications about available updates, but have never seen an ad anywhere on either macOS or iOS from Apple.
- cookiecaper 9y agoThe other day someone was asking why Facebook wants people to adopt to React, which is generally just a question about why all of these software vendors want to eat the world and become the source of everything that commands user attention. This is why. Apple can use its influence to harm its competitors by frustrating the mechanisms used to promote their monetary interests, making a (legitimate) claim that doing so is beneficial to the user. Microsoft articulated the goal well in its 1998 memos, the infamous "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish". They want platform control because once you control user attention (and developer attention by extension), you can wedge your way in and do things that benefit your company over others. Facebook controls the front-end library used by a large portion of all sites, not just facebook.com. If Apple's machine learning mechanism notices some common patterns between Facebook's code for React and Facebook's code for user tracking, either organically or because Facebook does a couple of nudges to make sure that happens, now Safari is broken, evidenced by its inability to correctly render a large portion of the web. If Facebook only had control over code running on facebook.com, then Facebook would be the apparent source of any user-facing breakage. Note that users are not the customer being catered to. They are, rather, the resource being exploited to provide the energy necessary to undergird the MegaCorp's power expansion, in service to the other MegaCorps doing large-scale advertisement, endorsement, and censorship/speech control deals with them.