6 ms·

> Surveillance is the norm in China. And in the US. And in Europe. And in Russia. And...

jhugg 9y ago
Sigh... yes, but the difference between systems that do E2E encryption and WeChat is pretty dramatic. It's not clear the government of any country can freely read your Signal or iMessage messages they way China can read your WeChat messages.
Hnrobert42 9y ago
No. Surveillance is far more pervasive in China. Equating the US law and Chinese law is not only incorrect, it is dangerous. The US largely surveils citizens of other countries for terror threats and espionage. China largely surveils its own citizens to suppress dissent. Conflating the two leads people to just shrig their shoulders if/when the US crosses the line.
- benevol 9y ago
  > The US largely surveils citizens of other countries for terror threats and espionage. You're kidding, of course.
  - agumonkey 9y ago
    There's a massive cultural shift though, at lease from where I stand (Europe). US kinda like the idea of free speech. China doesn't. I had chat with Chinese people that went all anxious after they started to emit the slightest critic about their country. USA are probably tapping into everything since 20 years but so far it didn't turn into a way to shut off or kill people.
    - bgee 9y ago
      > I had chat with Chinese people that went all anxious after they started to emit the slightest critic about their country. They are wrong, but it's a common misbelief. China government wants to censor posts that initialize collective action, not criticism. See this quantitive study from Harvard[0]. [0]: https://gking.harvard.edu/publications/how-censorship-china-allows-government-criticism-silences-collective-expression https://gking.harvard.edu/publications/how-censorship-china-...
      - agumonkey 9y ago
        Allow me some thin paranoia, if people start criticizing, they're halfway through organizing collective action.
      - adventured 9y ago
        China likes to aggressively censor pretty much everything that even remotely criticizes the party or its history. "A Chinese star TV anchor is facing "severe punishment" over jokes he made about Mao Zedong, state media report. A video of Bi Fujian singing a parody song at a private banquet and insulting the former Chinese leader in strong language was posted online in April." http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-33844095 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-33844095
- riffic 9y ago
  >for terror threats and espionage Well, officially this, but for many other reasons as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction
- whazor 9y ago
  To give some more examples: traveling over roads, train, air you need to ID yourself in China. The same for having a mobile phone connection. In European Union, you barely get checked and you have anonymous sim cards.
  - otakucode 9y ago
    To travel over road, train, air in the US you also must ID yourself. To get a mobile phone you have to ID yourself (and sign in-person for the package if a phone is delivered to you) in the US.
    - mullen 9y ago
      > To travel over road, train, air in the US you also must ID yourself. No you don't. If I drive a car, I have to have license and show that if asked by the police but that is a requirement of driving. If I am a passenger, I don't have to have an ID. I can take an airplane flight without an ID, that has been shown time and time again. Taking the train and ID'ing yourself might be condition of being able to use a train, not law. If I am out and about, I don't have to show the military my ID, I don't have to show security guards my ID and if I am not accused of a crime, I don't have to show the police my ID. Try that in China. > To get a mobile phone you have to ID yourself (and sign in-person for the package if a phone is delivered to you) in the US. Not true. I bought a T-Mobile SIM card with cash and activated it at home and I could have put anything into the address information. I have never once shown my ID when dealing with my T-Mobile account. Try doing that in China.
      - z2 9y ago
        We've all got anecdotes, so here's mine. I was asked for ID each time I wanted to modify my AT&T account with a rep, and as such I produced one in the form of driver's license. At a major city hotel late at night, I produced my ID to a security guard who otherwise would not let me in with just my room key. At an airport security check, being over 18, I produced a government-approved ID to board the flight. Maybe there are ways around all this, just like how in China, I bought a monthly subscription (not just pre-paid) China Unicom SIM at an official outlet using cash with no ID, and took many train and bus rides with just a ticket in hand.
- paradite 9y ago
  Wrong, and wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_the_Unite... http://gking.harvard.edu/files/gking/files/censored.pdf?m=1447795312 http://gking.harvard.edu/files/gking/files/censored.pdf?m=14...
- fatjokes 9y ago
  I'd say the main difference is that if the US wants to screw you, they'll dig up convoluted laws and imprison you with bureaucracy. The Chinese just say "fuck you, you're in prison because I say so". I still prefer the US way, because of the higher barrier to entry.
  - baddox 9y ago
    There are downsides to the US way too, like having huge numbers of Americans who refuse to believe that their government would ever do anything like that, and if they do, the citizen must have deserved it.
    - vtange 9y ago
      ..As opposed to the even larger number of Chinese who just accept that their government is the way to go and also believe you deserve it equally, if not more?
      - fatjokes 9y ago
        Uh... citation needed? A lot of Chinese I know might support their government because they are working to further Chinese interests. But I generally don't hear them trying to export their system of government. Americans on the other hand...
        seanmcdirmid 9y ago
        You should read more chinese media. There are articles talking about how India and African countries would benefit from Chinese-style government and economic system. This is totally just finger wagging, however.
  - zaroth 9y ago
    Something something FISA something Manafort something something downvotes.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
- balladeer 9y ago
  I would say not equating Chinese and US surveillance is rather dangerous. Not the extent but the capability and willingness (and track record?), clearly exhibited by instances that they can and they will. They both surveil their own citizens and of course citizens of other country's. Or maybe because USA is better at it? Doing it and getting away with it most of the time? Besides "largely" the keyword here as an artificial differentiation only leads to some kind of general denial (by its own citizens) that works in the favour of USA's surveillance machinery.
  - chibg10 9y ago
    My issue with this is that, in the US, PRISM was shut down--whereas in China that would never happen. The US by no means has a perfect or even necessarily good track record, but the people in charge are still accountable to the public and that makes a world of difference.
low_battery 9y ago
Oh they are totally not in the same league.
seanmcdirmid 9y ago
As if the issue was black and white rather than various shades of grey. China definitely is of a shade much darker than the USA.

Sigh... yes, but the difference between systems that do E2E encryption and WeChat is pretty dramatic. It's not clear the government of any country can freely read your Signal or iMessage messages they way China can read your WeChat messages.

Hnrobert42 9y ago

No. Surveillance is far more pervasive in China. Equating the US law and Chinese law is not only incorrect, it is dangerous. The US largely surveils citizens of other countries for terror threats and espionage. China largely surveils its own citizens to suppress dissent. Conflating the two leads people to just shrig their shoulders if/when the US crosses the line.

benevol 9y ago
> The US largely surveils citizens of other countries for terror threats and espionage. You're kidding, of course.
- agumonkey 9y ago
  There's a massive cultural shift though, at lease from where I stand (Europe). US kinda like the idea of free speech. China doesn't. I had chat with Chinese people that went all anxious after they started to emit the slightest critic about their country. USA are probably tapping into everything since 20 years but so far it didn't turn into a way to shut off or kill people.
  - bgee 9y ago
    > I had chat with Chinese people that went all anxious after they started to emit the slightest critic about their country. They are wrong, but it's a common misbelief. China government wants to censor posts that initialize collective action, not criticism. See this quantitive study from Harvard[0]. [0]: https://gking.harvard.edu/publications/how-censorship-china-allows-government-criticism-silences-collective-expression https://gking.harvard.edu/publications/how-censorship-china-...
    - agumonkey 9y ago
      Allow me some thin paranoia, if people start criticizing, they're halfway through organizing collective action.
    - adventured 9y ago
      China likes to aggressively censor pretty much everything that even remotely criticizes the party or its history. "A Chinese star TV anchor is facing "severe punishment" over jokes he made about Mao Zedong, state media report. A video of Bi Fujian singing a parody song at a private banquet and insulting the former Chinese leader in strong language was posted online in April." http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-33844095 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-33844095
riffic 9y ago
>for terror threats and espionage Well, officially this, but for many other reasons as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction
whazor 9y ago
To give some more examples: traveling over roads, train, air you need to ID yourself in China. The same for having a mobile phone connection. In European Union, you barely get checked and you have anonymous sim cards.
- otakucode 9y ago
  To travel over road, train, air in the US you also must ID yourself. To get a mobile phone you have to ID yourself (and sign in-person for the package if a phone is delivered to you) in the US.
  - mullen 9y ago
    > To travel over road, train, air in the US you also must ID yourself. No you don't. If I drive a car, I have to have license and show that if asked by the police but that is a requirement of driving. If I am a passenger, I don't have to have an ID. I can take an airplane flight without an ID, that has been shown time and time again. Taking the train and ID'ing yourself might be condition of being able to use a train, not law. If I am out and about, I don't have to show the military my ID, I don't have to show security guards my ID and if I am not accused of a crime, I don't have to show the police my ID. Try that in China. > To get a mobile phone you have to ID yourself (and sign in-person for the package if a phone is delivered to you) in the US. Not true. I bought a T-Mobile SIM card with cash and activated it at home and I could have put anything into the address information. I have never once shown my ID when dealing with my T-Mobile account. Try doing that in China.
    - z2 9y ago
      We've all got anecdotes, so here's mine. I was asked for ID each time I wanted to modify my AT&T account with a rep, and as such I produced one in the form of driver's license. At a major city hotel late at night, I produced my ID to a security guard who otherwise would not let me in with just my room key. At an airport security check, being over 18, I produced a government-approved ID to board the flight. Maybe there are ways around all this, just like how in China, I bought a monthly subscription (not just pre-paid) China Unicom SIM at an official outlet using cash with no ID, and took many train and bus rides with just a ticket in hand.
paradite 9y ago
Wrong, and wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_the_Unite... http://gking.harvard.edu/files/gking/files/censored.pdf?m=1447795312 http://gking.harvard.edu/files/gking/files/censored.pdf?m=14...
fatjokes 9y ago
I'd say the main difference is that if the US wants to screw you, they'll dig up convoluted laws and imprison you with bureaucracy. The Chinese just say "fuck you, you're in prison because I say so". I still prefer the US way, because of the higher barrier to entry.
- baddox 9y ago
  There are downsides to the US way too, like having huge numbers of Americans who refuse to believe that their government would ever do anything like that, and if they do, the citizen must have deserved it.
  - vtange 9y ago
    ..As opposed to the even larger number of Chinese who just accept that their government is the way to go and also believe you deserve it equally, if not more?
    - fatjokes 9y ago
      Uh... citation needed? A lot of Chinese I know might support their government because they are working to further Chinese interests. But I generally don't hear them trying to export their system of government. Americans on the other hand...
      - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
        You should read more chinese media. There are articles talking about how India and African countries would benefit from Chinese-style government and economic system. This is totally just finger wagging, however.
- zaroth 9y ago
  Something something FISA something Manafort something something downvotes.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
balladeer 9y ago
I would say not equating Chinese and US surveillance is rather dangerous. Not the extent but the capability and willingness (and track record?), clearly exhibited by instances that they can and they will. They both surveil their own citizens and of course citizens of other country's. Or maybe because USA is better at it? Doing it and getting away with it most of the time? Besides "largely" the keyword here as an artificial differentiation only leads to some kind of general denial (by its own citizens) that works in the favour of USA's surveillance machinery.
- chibg10 9y ago
  My issue with this is that, in the US, PRISM was shut down--whereas in China that would never happen. The US by no means has a perfect or even necessarily good track record, but the people in charge are still accountable to the public and that makes a world of difference.

low_battery 9y ago

Oh they are totally not in the same league.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago

As if the issue was black and white rather than various shades of grey. China definitely is of a shade much darker than the USA.