22 ms·

I don't have anything against regulations and fines to keep monopolistic companies in check, but that being said, as an European, I can't help but feel a little

by Mahn 9y ago

I don't have anything against regulations and fines to keep monopolistic companies in check, but that being said, as an European, I can't help but feel a little appalled that there's so much focus on this and so little on actually creating European Googles and Facebooks.

marian0_ 9y ago
I on the other hand enjoy having high taxes (i.e. good services) and lower wages while the US creates all the products I need and it is them who are on the brink of a civil war over inequality.
- vdnkh 9y ago
  If you think the US is on the brink of civil war you've been spending too much time reading fnords on the internet.
  - RivieraKid 9y ago
    It was a metaphor.
  - snovv_crash 9y ago
    Dunno... I had childhood friends calling for the white supremacists to please come march in Oakland. Imagine the carnage, repercussions and tensions that would come from that. I don't know what you think the precursors to a civil war looks like, but between ignored Occupy protesters' issues, the Tea Party being co-opted into an anti-abortion group with their original complaints being ignored, and the BLM movement that grew out of Ferguson feeling ignored by those in power, the U.S.A. isn't exactly super stable at the moment. There is a huge group of people who feel (rightly or otherwise) that they have genuine grievances and are willing to get arrested for it. What spark would be required to light this flame?
    - losteric 9y ago
      This image is really the best metaphor for our current political climate: https://imgur.com/TxJ7iEi https://imgur.com/TxJ7iEi Mass media just magnifies the angry 1%, creating mountains out of molehills. eg the Bay Area has maybe 100 BLM/Antifa instigators total. Every police incident involves that same small group of people, but the media hypes up the number of incidents. Some group postures to look significant, the media obliges to get ad revenue, a handful of people get caught up in the hysteria, and everyone else... yawns. A homeless man delaying BART by 20 minutes causes more wide-spread civil unrest. People are upset, yes, and America desperately needs a functional Congress... but we're not even close to > There is a huge group of people who feel (rightly or otherwise) that they have genuine grievances and are willing to get arrested for it
      - snovv_crash 9y ago
        > eg the Bay Area has maybe 100 BLM/Antifa instigators total. Yes, but how many who agree with them, but have day jobs they need to go to? I can assure you that my childhood friend was not joining the BLM protests, but he was still calling for Nazis to try to march in Oakland.
        losteric 9y ago
        I know. My point is that is largely meaningless * "Racists march in racist territory to intimidate people elsewhere" * "People elsewhere goad the weak cowardly racists" Uh, obviously? I'd be surprised if that didn't happen. Racism is not popular. Oakland isn't alone, I have heard the same sentiment from New Yorkers, Seattleites, Houston; urban areas do not tolerate that kind of anti-American discrimination.
    - dqpb 9y ago
      I don't know what you think the precursors to a civil war looks like, but... Relevant blog: https://predictiveheuristics.com/ https://predictiveheuristics.com/
- watwut 9y ago
  Civil war in US would be catastrophic for pretty much everyone in EU. Just saying. Our economies are very dependent. That alone would be catastrophic. It would make Russia, China etc more confident in taking more territories and putting more demands on EU. Handle refugees from there would put a lot of strain on us too. If not-nice-people would won, and civil wars tend to be won by wannabe dictators, we would be even in bigger trouble.
beevai142 9y ago
Perhaps it is an action boosting EU-based companies? Otherwise they are at a disadvantage in competition, because US-based Googles and Facebooks game the e.g. the tax system in a way that EU-based companies cannot.
- nradov 9y ago
  Tax avoidance isn't helping large US based tech companies aquire more users or gain more control of the Internet. It only impacts investors and executives. So that's not the reason why EU based competitors have mostly failed to reach dominant positions.
  - alexasmyths 9y ago
    "Tax avoidance isn't helping large US based tech companies aquire more users or gain more control of the Internet" No, it really does help large entities wield their power even more. The billions of dollars that the big cos have stockpiled ensures they can suck up the talent, attack new markets and keep competitors at bay. It's not the biggest thing, but it's a thing.
    - nradov 9y ago
      No it doesn't really help. The money is mostly stockpiled offshore specifically to avoid taxation. They aren't using it to hire more employees or launch new products. The only thing it might help with is to prevent hostile acquisitions.
    - alexasmyths 9y ago
      Yes, it does help. A) They have massive operations internationally and hire a lot. B) Did you witness Microsofts dismantling of Nokia? That was a takedown of an entire ecosystem and huge gift to Apple and Google/Android as well. Paid for by cheap taxes overseas.
      - nradov 9y ago
        Nokia never had a real ecosystem. That's exactly why they failed.
Swizec 9y ago
As an investor in my first startup once put it: You want to build a company in the US because you have access to a market of 300,000,000 people right from the beginning. In Europe markets are much smaller. Munchen and Berlin are completely different markets. Germany and Spain? Fuggetaboutit. Yes you can't address that big of a market immediately, but if you're into the whole rapid expansion VC thing, having a big market helps a lot more than having a thousand tiny markets does. Where I'm from, Slovenia, basically nobody builds startups for the local market anymore. You go straight for global and that shit's hard. Would be nice to have a bigger local market that you can experiment with.
- switch007 9y ago
  > Munchen and Berlin are completely different markets In what respect? Berlin and Munich are 363 miles apart, share standard German, a currency, a time zone, a prime minister, some culture, legal system... Are you referring to class/wealth?
  - alexasmyths 9y ago
    They are different cultures. Munich/Bayern - old school, conservative, traditional. Berlin - multicultural, hipster. Kind of like SF vs. Dallas. That said, they are both very German and it's a little bit of a stretch to say they are different markets. But Germany and Spain are night and day different and building for EU-wide is very hard. Not only are there different markets, but Europeans have strong cultures, which include behaviours - they don't jump a 'the new thing' because it's cool. America is a land of fads and trends, people like new activities, new dynamics - also, people are always in search of identity, and 'brand power' is powerful in the US across the board, just as some American brands have considerable cultural power in China. There are basically no places in Europe with a critical mass of early adopters for anything in tech, so it's tough. Some spots, yes, and numbers overall, yes. But no hot-zones.
    - JetSpiegel 9y ago
      > There are basically no places in Europe with a critical mass of early adopters for anything in tech What the? People get in line to buy iPhones here too, Europeans are not all smart. Europe is not just the CCC and The Fabulous Destiny of Amèlie, people are addicted to Facebook about the same as Americans.
icebraining 9y ago
The EU and many of its members have plenty of programs encouraging entrepreneurship. Stuff like http://startupeuropeclub.eu/ http://startupeuropeclub.eu/ Whether they're actually able to lead to the creation of European Googles and Facebooks is a different question.
- nradov 9y ago
  Those programs are mostly cargo culting and fail to address the essential aspects of an entrepreneurial environment. It's a way to seem like they're doing something rather than making the hard changes that would piss off some powerful special interests and rentiers.
  - lioeters 9y ago
    One thing I hear about the startup environment in Europe is that investors are more conservative and risk-averse compared to those in the US. Would you elaborate on the "essential aspects of an entrepreneurial environment", and the hard changes that would need to be made to improve the situation? Also curious to hear more about these powerful special interests and "rentiers" - any specific examples in mind?
    - franciscop 9y ago
      Try becoming a freelancer opening a company in Spain. Orders of magnitude harder than in the US, so for many recent grads is not a viable option at all.
      - bjelkeman-again 9y ago
        Different EU countries have different contexts. In Sweden it is very easy.
        likelynew 9y ago
        I think the point is not how easy is to start a company, but how easy is to get funds that you can spend without fear of failing.
RivieraKid 9y ago
> so little on actually creating European Googles and Facebooks How though?
- thecrazyone 9y ago
  Also "why though?"
RivieraKid 9y ago
The US (and China) have the advantage of a large homogenous market. That's probably one of the main reason why Google, Facebook, Twitter, Reddit and others originated in the US.
grp 9y ago
If Google and Facebook aren't good, I'm not sure that the European version would be good..
- thecrazyone 9y ago
  good point, something which is not noted when people talk about such things :)
jlarocco 9y ago
Those are two separate issues. The rules apply to everybody equally, and enforcing them is independent of promoting innovation and economic growth.
daveid 9y ago
Mastodon[1] is European :) [1]: https://joinmastodon.org https://joinmastodon.org
kbart 9y ago
I don't think it's a technological problem. There are surely talents in Europe that are capable of creating wondrous things (let alone social networks), see Skype for example (before Microsoft has ruined it). I think it's cultural -- USA is the center of western culture (like it or not) and many fashions/trends are born there that are later followed in other countries -- Hollywood, music (MTV in 80-90s), TV series, Facebook, Apple etc.
ionised 9y ago
I'm not really interested in a European version of those companies. How would that be any better?
- cabalamat 9y ago
  It would -- at least in theory -- be easier for the European peoples to regulate them so they act in their interests.
  - thecrazyone 9y ago
    Well, I'm sure you've heard of company restructuring. A company HQ can be moved anywhere, and a company restructured for legal freedom and tax efficiency. So, in all likelihood the EU Googles and FB will be structured similarly (maybe to evade EU laws if it were to become restrictive). And you're back on square one. Instead I suggest vote with your dollar, choose a different service that better suits your needs than making more govt regulations (and infringing on everyone's rights)
    - cabalamat 9y ago
      What I had in mind was a totally separate company, based in Europe, not a European branch of Facebook/Google etc. Kinda like the Chinese are doing by having Chinese clones of all the big UIS technology companies.
jokoon 9y ago
You can't really snap fingers and make those kind of company appear out of nowhere. Those companies exist because of american entrepreneurship culture, and how corporate laws work in the US. US companies have a lot of freedom to throw money right and left to do things because IT moves fast, and that is just not possible in europe at all. Also those companies are flagships, but they also are criticized because they are big brother type agents. They centralize data from users of the entire world, and let's be honest, it gives an information advantage for american interests (meaning geopolitics, economics, business). Those companies are not just products, they also are a big advantage for three letters agencies and business intelligence as well. I'm sure a similar european google or facebook would either be bought by US company or see its employees offered jobs at facebook/google. Europe is not interested in having such companies, because europe doesn't have investors to throw money like megalomaniacs at anything that pops up. Europe is more traditional. So yeah, the US is the center of the world, there are geopolitical reasons for it, and they are logical reasons why it is also the case for flagship IT companies.
matt4077 9y ago
Don't fall into trap of seeing this as being motivated by economic nationalism. That's a claim frequently made in regards to EU antitrust actions, and it is easily disproven by the data that shows US companies being underrepresented in terms of levied fines compared to their revenues in the EU. Any European competitor would be subject to the same sort of fine if they behaved similarly.

by Mahn 9y ago

marian0_ 9y ago

I on the other hand enjoy having high taxes (i.e. good services) and lower wages while the US creates all the products I need and it is them who are on the brink of a civil war over inequality.

vdnkh 9y ago
If you think the US is on the brink of civil war you've been spending too much time reading fnords on the internet.
- RivieraKid 9y ago
  It was a metaphor.
- snovv_crash 9y ago
  Dunno... I had childhood friends calling for the white supremacists to please come march in Oakland. Imagine the carnage, repercussions and tensions that would come from that. I don't know what you think the precursors to a civil war looks like, but between ignored Occupy protesters' issues, the Tea Party being co-opted into an anti-abortion group with their original complaints being ignored, and the BLM movement that grew out of Ferguson feeling ignored by those in power, the U.S.A. isn't exactly super stable at the moment. There is a huge group of people who feel (rightly or otherwise) that they have genuine grievances and are willing to get arrested for it. What spark would be required to light this flame?
  - losteric 9y ago
    This image is really the best metaphor for our current political climate: https://imgur.com/TxJ7iEi https://imgur.com/TxJ7iEi Mass media just magnifies the angry 1%, creating mountains out of molehills. eg the Bay Area has maybe 100 BLM/Antifa instigators total. Every police incident involves that same small group of people, but the media hypes up the number of incidents. Some group postures to look significant, the media obliges to get ad revenue, a handful of people get caught up in the hysteria, and everyone else... yawns. A homeless man delaying BART by 20 minutes causes more wide-spread civil unrest. People are upset, yes, and America desperately needs a functional Congress... but we're not even close to > There is a huge group of people who feel (rightly or otherwise) that they have genuine grievances and are willing to get arrested for it
    - snovv_crash 9y ago
      > eg the Bay Area has maybe 100 BLM/Antifa instigators total. Yes, but how many who agree with them, but have day jobs they need to go to? I can assure you that my childhood friend was not joining the BLM protests, but he was still calling for Nazis to try to march in Oakland.
      - losteric 9y ago
        I know. My point is that is largely meaningless * "Racists march in racist territory to intimidate people elsewhere" * "People elsewhere goad the weak cowardly racists" Uh, obviously? I'd be surprised if that didn't happen. Racism is not popular. Oakland isn't alone, I have heard the same sentiment from New Yorkers, Seattleites, Houston; urban areas do not tolerate that kind of anti-American discrimination.
  - dqpb 9y ago
    I don't know what you think the precursors to a civil war looks like, but... Relevant blog: https://predictiveheuristics.com/ https://predictiveheuristics.com/
watwut 9y ago
Civil war in US would be catastrophic for pretty much everyone in EU. Just saying. Our economies are very dependent. That alone would be catastrophic. It would make Russia, China etc more confident in taking more territories and putting more demands on EU. Handle refugees from there would put a lot of strain on us too. If not-nice-people would won, and civil wars tend to be won by wannabe dictators, we would be even in bigger trouble.

beevai142 9y ago

Perhaps it is an action boosting EU-based companies? Otherwise they are at a disadvantage in competition, because US-based Googles and Facebooks game the e.g. the tax system in a way that EU-based companies cannot.

nradov 9y ago
Tax avoidance isn't helping large US based tech companies aquire more users or gain more control of the Internet. It only impacts investors and executives. So that's not the reason why EU based competitors have mostly failed to reach dominant positions.
- alexasmyths 9y ago
  "Tax avoidance isn't helping large US based tech companies aquire more users or gain more control of the Internet" No, it really does help large entities wield their power even more. The billions of dollars that the big cos have stockpiled ensures they can suck up the talent, attack new markets and keep competitors at bay. It's not the biggest thing, but it's a thing.
  - nradov 9y ago
    No it doesn't really help. The money is mostly stockpiled offshore specifically to avoid taxation. They aren't using it to hire more employees or launch new products. The only thing it might help with is to prevent hostile acquisitions.
  - alexasmyths 9y ago
    Yes, it does help. A) They have massive operations internationally and hire a lot. B) Did you witness Microsofts dismantling of Nokia? That was a takedown of an entire ecosystem and huge gift to Apple and Google/Android as well. Paid for by cheap taxes overseas.
    - nradov 9y ago
      Nokia never had a real ecosystem. That's exactly why they failed.

Swizec 9y ago

As an investor in my first startup once put it: You want to build a company in the US because you have access to a market of 300,000,000 people right from the beginning. In Europe markets are much smaller. Munchen and Berlin are completely different markets. Germany and Spain? Fuggetaboutit. Yes you can't address that big of a market immediately, but if you're into the whole rapid expansion VC thing, having a big market helps a lot more than having a thousand tiny markets does. Where I'm from, Slovenia, basically nobody builds startups for the local market anymore. You go straight for global and that shit's hard. Would be nice to have a bigger local market that you can experiment with.

switch007 9y ago
> Munchen and Berlin are completely different markets In what respect? Berlin and Munich are 363 miles apart, share standard German, a currency, a time zone, a prime minister, some culture, legal system... Are you referring to class/wealth?
- alexasmyths 9y ago
  They are different cultures. Munich/Bayern - old school, conservative, traditional. Berlin - multicultural, hipster. Kind of like SF vs. Dallas. That said, they are both very German and it's a little bit of a stretch to say they are different markets. But Germany and Spain are night and day different and building for EU-wide is very hard. Not only are there different markets, but Europeans have strong cultures, which include behaviours - they don't jump a 'the new thing' because it's cool. America is a land of fads and trends, people like new activities, new dynamics - also, people are always in search of identity, and 'brand power' is powerful in the US across the board, just as some American brands have considerable cultural power in China. There are basically no places in Europe with a critical mass of early adopters for anything in tech, so it's tough. Some spots, yes, and numbers overall, yes. But no hot-zones.
  - JetSpiegel 9y ago
    > There are basically no places in Europe with a critical mass of early adopters for anything in tech What the? People get in line to buy iPhones here too, Europeans are not all smart. Europe is not just the CCC and The Fabulous Destiny of Amèlie, people are addicted to Facebook about the same as Americans.

icebraining 9y ago

The EU and many of its members have plenty of programs encouraging entrepreneurship. Stuff like http://startupeuropeclub.eu/ http://startupeuropeclub.eu/ Whether they're actually able to lead to the creation of European Googles and Facebooks is a different question.

nradov 9y ago
Those programs are mostly cargo culting and fail to address the essential aspects of an entrepreneurial environment. It's a way to seem like they're doing something rather than making the hard changes that would piss off some powerful special interests and rentiers.
- lioeters 9y ago
  One thing I hear about the startup environment in Europe is that investors are more conservative and risk-averse compared to those in the US. Would you elaborate on the "essential aspects of an entrepreneurial environment", and the hard changes that would need to be made to improve the situation? Also curious to hear more about these powerful special interests and "rentiers" - any specific examples in mind?
  - franciscop 9y ago
    Try becoming a freelancer opening a company in Spain. Orders of magnitude harder than in the US, so for many recent grads is not a viable option at all.
    - bjelkeman-again 9y ago
      Different EU countries have different contexts. In Sweden it is very easy.
      - likelynew 9y ago
        I think the point is not how easy is to start a company, but how easy is to get funds that you can spend without fear of failing.

RivieraKid 9y ago

> so little on actually creating European Googles and Facebooks How though?

thecrazyone 9y ago
Also "why though?"

RivieraKid 9y ago

The US (and China) have the advantage of a large homogenous market. That's probably one of the main reason why Google, Facebook, Twitter, Reddit and others originated in the US.

grp 9y ago

If Google and Facebook aren't good, I'm not sure that the European version would be good..

thecrazyone 9y ago
good point, something which is not noted when people talk about such things :)

jlarocco 9y ago

Those are two separate issues. The rules apply to everybody equally, and enforcing them is independent of promoting innovation and economic growth.

daveid 9y ago

Mastodon[1] is European :) [1]: https://joinmastodon.org https://joinmastodon.org

kbart 9y ago

I don't think it's a technological problem. There are surely talents in Europe that are capable of creating wondrous things (let alone social networks), see Skype for example (before Microsoft has ruined it). I think it's cultural -- USA is the center of western culture (like it or not) and many fashions/trends are born there that are later followed in other countries -- Hollywood, music (MTV in 80-90s), TV series, Facebook, Apple etc.

ionised 9y ago

I'm not really interested in a European version of those companies. How would that be any better?

cabalamat 9y ago
It would -- at least in theory -- be easier for the European peoples to regulate them so they act in their interests.
- thecrazyone 9y ago
  Well, I'm sure you've heard of company restructuring. A company HQ can be moved anywhere, and a company restructured for legal freedom and tax efficiency. So, in all likelihood the EU Googles and FB will be structured similarly (maybe to evade EU laws if it were to become restrictive). And you're back on square one. Instead I suggest vote with your dollar, choose a different service that better suits your needs than making more govt regulations (and infringing on everyone's rights)
  - cabalamat 9y ago
    What I had in mind was a totally separate company, based in Europe, not a European branch of Facebook/Google etc. Kinda like the Chinese are doing by having Chinese clones of all the big UIS technology companies.

jokoon 9y ago

You can't really snap fingers and make those kind of company appear out of nowhere. Those companies exist because of american entrepreneurship culture, and how corporate laws work in the US. US companies have a lot of freedom to throw money right and left to do things because IT moves fast, and that is just not possible in europe at all. Also those companies are flagships, but they also are criticized because they are big brother type agents. They centralize data from users of the entire world, and let's be honest, it gives an information advantage for american interests (meaning geopolitics, economics, business). Those companies are not just products, they also are a big advantage for three letters agencies and business intelligence as well. I'm sure a similar european google or facebook would either be bought by US company or see its employees offered jobs at facebook/google. Europe is not interested in having such companies, because europe doesn't have investors to throw money like megalomaniacs at anything that pops up. Europe is more traditional. So yeah, the US is the center of the world, there are geopolitical reasons for it, and they are logical reasons why it is also the case for flagship IT companies.

matt4077 9y ago

Don't fall into trap of seeing this as being motivated by economic nationalism. That's a claim frequently made in regards to EU antitrust actions, and it is easily disproven by the data that shows US companies being underrepresented in terms of levied fines compared to their revenues in the EU. Any European competitor would be subject to the same sort of fine if they behaved similarly.