4 ms·

Used to like Yelp as an alternative to Google owning everything, but they are destroying their brand using shady app-hijacking tactics. It's a dark pattern to

Used to like Yelp as an alternative to Google owning everything, but they are destroying their brand using shady app-hijacking tactics. It's a dark pattern to limit access/force app downloads for access to content on mobile. I hate rooting for google, but I'll root for open web any day.

graphememes 9y ago
Heh, you should hear their shady business tactics. It would be a shame if your business suddenly had 1 star on yelp.
- krisdol 9y ago
  I'm unconvinced. I have read a ton of anecdotes and 2nd-hand accounts about this, but I've never seen any experiment or any piece of hard proof that yelp or its representatives hold your rating over your head if you don't sign up for advertising. It seems like an easy scenario to test out. I'm totally open to being convinced, but I'm skeptical right now that they are in fact that shady. I'm more inclined to believe that it's a placebo effect from suspicious people suddenly paying more attention to ratings after a sales call, and also attributing any negative dip in rating to the phone call they recently had. There are also third-party groups who call claiming to be able to list your business higher or rate it better, and I'm suspicious that some people confound these callers as yelp representatives. And linked from elsewhere in the thread: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-yelp-ratings-20140905-story.html http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-yelp-ratings-20140905-... -- it just seems like with no scientific study backing the claims and case after case being lost, I think the onus of proof is on the people accusing yelp of these threats.
  - teen 9y ago
    I've seen it first hand. My friend is a veternarian who was working in a very expensive neighborhood in California. Every time he got a 5 star review, it wouldn't display on his Yelp page. A few 1 star reviews did appear though. Yelp would call him and tell him essentially the 5 stars would reappear if he advertised with them. He had no choice but to pay and they all appeared, driving his average back up. How would you propose to prove it? And what would proving accomplish since many folks already believe it?
    - timr 9y ago
      It's trivially easy: link to the page. Put up or shut up. If what you're saying is true, it will be obvious. These stories are always about "friends" or "relatives", but nobody ever provides the link to the evidence, despite that being the easiest thing in the world to provide.
      - yorwba 9y ago
        Specifically, Internet Archive links that show the before/after situation, with reviews appearing that were made before "before" but only appear in "after".
    - tdeck 9y ago
      Do you know for sure it was Yelp calling and not some third-party scammer? I have heard there are companies that pull this, and some might pretend to be Yelp but in fact they just create fake reviews and them delete/change them later. (I presume this only works if the target pays "Yelp" over the phone). I am not sure what to believe but like your parent xommentor I am skeptical.
      - ocdtrekkie 9y ago
        Given the scale at which phone scammers operate these days, and the fact that many of the scammed business owners are likely not savvy to this, it's plausible. One wonders how profitable it'd be for Yelp to call small, local businesses at scale for shakedown, considering what's on the line reputationally if one or two people know how to record calls.
        aaron_m04 9y ago
        It's illegal in a lot of states to record calls without notifying the other party.
    - user5994461 9y ago
      >>> How would you propose to prove it? And what would proving accomplish since many folks already believe it? Gather a paper trails. For starters, screenshots of the page + emails and communication with the company.
  - bitmapbrother 9y ago
    Here are some first hand accounts from the trailer for Billion Dollar Bully https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2dkJctUDIs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2dkJctUDIs
  - criddell 9y ago
    Enough people have left Yelp that if there were black programs in place, we would know. I totally believe that there are some shady salespeople at Yelp that talk about... the implications. But I doubt they actually do sell improved ratings.
    - Cozumel 9y ago
      >we would know We do know. Just most people refuse to believe until it happens to them, so Yelp continues to get away with it.
      - criddell 9y ago
        Where are all the ex-employees and leakers exposing the shenanigans? I do believe they have salespeople that suggest paying to fix things, but I don't believe they can actually do that. It seems like it would be an easy experiment for somebody to do. Find a local restaurant with some poor ratings. If they want to cooperate, pay a Yelp salesperson to "fix" the problem and see if it goes away. If they deliver, then you have a bombshell article that could go viral.
  - 013a 9y ago
    Additionally, you could literally ask anyone who worked at Yelp. I have. Sure not everyone there has seen every bit of code that powers their service, or every business process, but if they were systemically encouraging mobster-like business tactics, someone would have heard about it. I never did. I heard a lot of engineers and sales people laughing about the fact that people thought they did. The reality is that its likely explainable through a combination of disgruntled business owners and overzealous/evil salespeople who make threats they can't follow through on, just to get sales. (Though, some of the admin panels there have (or had, when I was there) a easy to use "Make user Yelp Elite" button, but I'm sure you'd get caught :)
- linkregister 9y ago
  This study done by a prominent university claims that the Yelp extortion allegations don't hold up. I haven't evaluated it so it is possible that the study has serious flaws in its methodology. http://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/item.aspx?num=45151 http://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/item.aspx?num=45151
  - eregorn 9y ago
    Seems that they attempted to, but they can't definitively disprove it. Basically, they couldn't find evidence, but they can't disprove the hypothesis and they can only tell from the year 2012. Thus, they can't see if stores let their advertising expire before that year or see the reviews stores had before advertising if they started before that.
    - linkregister 9y ago
      Yes, all scientific studies have limits to their scope. That is tautological.
amelius 9y ago
This is not about whether Yelp is good or bad. This is about Google and their abuse of power.

graphememes 9y ago

Heh, you should hear their shady business tactics. It would be a shame if your business suddenly had 1 star on yelp.

krisdol 9y ago
I'm unconvinced. I have read a ton of anecdotes and 2nd-hand accounts about this, but I've never seen any experiment or any piece of hard proof that yelp or its representatives hold your rating over your head if you don't sign up for advertising. It seems like an easy scenario to test out. I'm totally open to being convinced, but I'm skeptical right now that they are in fact that shady. I'm more inclined to believe that it's a placebo effect from suspicious people suddenly paying more attention to ratings after a sales call, and also attributing any negative dip in rating to the phone call they recently had. There are also third-party groups who call claiming to be able to list your business higher or rate it better, and I'm suspicious that some people confound these callers as yelp representatives. And linked from elsewhere in the thread: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-yelp-ratings-20140905-story.html http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-yelp-ratings-20140905-... -- it just seems like with no scientific study backing the claims and case after case being lost, I think the onus of proof is on the people accusing yelp of these threats.
- teen 9y ago
  I've seen it first hand. My friend is a veternarian who was working in a very expensive neighborhood in California. Every time he got a 5 star review, it wouldn't display on his Yelp page. A few 1 star reviews did appear though. Yelp would call him and tell him essentially the 5 stars would reappear if he advertised with them. He had no choice but to pay and they all appeared, driving his average back up. How would you propose to prove it? And what would proving accomplish since many folks already believe it?
  - timr 9y ago
    It's trivially easy: link to the page. Put up or shut up. If what you're saying is true, it will be obvious. These stories are always about "friends" or "relatives", but nobody ever provides the link to the evidence, despite that being the easiest thing in the world to provide.
    - yorwba 9y ago
      Specifically, Internet Archive links that show the before/after situation, with reviews appearing that were made before "before" but only appear in "after".
  - tdeck 9y ago
    Do you know for sure it was Yelp calling and not some third-party scammer? I have heard there are companies that pull this, and some might pretend to be Yelp but in fact they just create fake reviews and them delete/change them later. (I presume this only works if the target pays "Yelp" over the phone). I am not sure what to believe but like your parent xommentor I am skeptical.
    - ocdtrekkie 9y ago
      Given the scale at which phone scammers operate these days, and the fact that many of the scammed business owners are likely not savvy to this, it's plausible. One wonders how profitable it'd be for Yelp to call small, local businesses at scale for shakedown, considering what's on the line reputationally if one or two people know how to record calls.
      - aaron_m04 9y ago
        It's illegal in a lot of states to record calls without notifying the other party.
  - user5994461 9y ago
    >>> How would you propose to prove it? And what would proving accomplish since many folks already believe it? Gather a paper trails. For starters, screenshots of the page + emails and communication with the company.
- bitmapbrother 9y ago
  Here are some first hand accounts from the trailer for Billion Dollar Bully https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2dkJctUDIs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2dkJctUDIs
- criddell 9y ago
  Enough people have left Yelp that if there were black programs in place, we would know. I totally believe that there are some shady salespeople at Yelp that talk about... the implications. But I doubt they actually do sell improved ratings.
  - Cozumel 9y ago
    >we would know We do know. Just most people refuse to believe until it happens to them, so Yelp continues to get away with it.
    - criddell 9y ago
      Where are all the ex-employees and leakers exposing the shenanigans? I do believe they have salespeople that suggest paying to fix things, but I don't believe they can actually do that. It seems like it would be an easy experiment for somebody to do. Find a local restaurant with some poor ratings. If they want to cooperate, pay a Yelp salesperson to "fix" the problem and see if it goes away. If they deliver, then you have a bombshell article that could go viral.
- 013a 9y ago
  Additionally, you could literally ask anyone who worked at Yelp. I have. Sure not everyone there has seen every bit of code that powers their service, or every business process, but if they were systemically encouraging mobster-like business tactics, someone would have heard about it. I never did. I heard a lot of engineers and sales people laughing about the fact that people thought they did. The reality is that its likely explainable through a combination of disgruntled business owners and overzealous/evil salespeople who make threats they can't follow through on, just to get sales. (Though, some of the admin panels there have (or had, when I was there) a easy to use "Make user Yelp Elite" button, but I'm sure you'd get caught :)
linkregister 9y ago
This study done by a prominent university claims that the Yelp extortion allegations don't hold up. I haven't evaluated it so it is possible that the study has serious flaws in its methodology. http://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/item.aspx?num=45151 http://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/item.aspx?num=45151
- eregorn 9y ago
  Seems that they attempted to, but they can't definitively disprove it. Basically, they couldn't find evidence, but they can't disprove the hypothesis and they can only tell from the year 2012. Thus, they can't see if stores let their advertising expire before that year or see the reviews stores had before advertising if they started before that.
  - linkregister 9y ago
    Yes, all scientific studies have limits to their scope. That is tautological.

amelius 9y ago

This is not about whether Yelp is good or bad. This is about Google and their abuse of power.