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Nigerian here, and yes this is truly happening in my country not just in Lagos state but all around with Ogun state pretty much taking the lead for the position

Nigerian here, and yes this is truly happening in my country not just in Lagos state but all around with Ogun state pretty much taking the lead for the position of most mega churches in Nigeria. It is very nauseating that with all the poverty in my country snake oil prophets; (which is what they majorly are) would rather build mega churches/houses; (as their houses are mostly built with the churches) and schools with outrageous tuition fees from the proceeds of offering and tithes from those same gullible congregants who can't then afford to attend such schools or build such mega churches/houses for themselves.

simias 9y ago
This is an interesting comment but you should edit it to remove the spaces at the beginning of the lines to make it more readable.
humanrebar 9y ago
> snake oil prophets Can I get more details on the "snake oil" and other shenanigans? The article mostly describes a civic phenomenon without really describing the organization's views or behavior, neither inside nor outside the context of Nigeria. Some background on the theology of the group also interests me.
- smithmayowa 9y ago
  They utilize a system whereby they have convinced people that the level of their prosperity is related to the love and favor that god has for them, they also always praise the wealthy for their generous donations to the church and always bemoan the other congregation to work towards becoming wealthy quoting scriptures in contexts that supports their claim e.g ["we are overcoming","the children of god shall inherit the earth","god is wealthy so we must all be too"] e.t.c. Now what do you think happens after this sort of conditioning, well those who are not wealthy want to become wealthy by force and those who have want to donate more than their peers to be praised and exalted in front of their same peers, the sad part of it all is they always end up praising corrupt politicians, fraudsters and people with suspicious source of wealth. I pretty much stopped caring about it all after getting tired of always having to put on my best clothes to church every Sunday so as not to be looked down upon by others or hearing how i didn't give enough to god and should do better every service. It all just stopped being important plus i discovered other things to focus my time on and also became an atheist, but sadly members of my family still believe in those stuffs though.
  - vezycash 9y ago
    You sound like a young guy because it wasn't long ago that the biggest churches preached "holiness" above all. Indeed one of their favorite bible quotes was, "It's easier for a donkey to pass through an eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven." Redeemed Christian church only started asking for tithes in recent years. Adeboye didn't want members to feel burdened. His words, "God said I'm blocking blessings of members by not telling them to pay tithe." As for your cloth experience, boo hoo. Sounds like someone who has bad experiences with one or two members of the opposite sex and concludes that ALL men, ALL women are... Are there criminals, lazy bums disguised as pastors. Yes, just last week alone I read of a Nigerian pastor who raped a pregnant woman, one who slept with a 12 year old, an animal who slit the throat of the young son of a member, another who duped a woman into donating her jeep to him and many more. But that can be said of the Nigerian police, lecturers... Even the freakin president. The first lady was carrying his child at 12 years of age. http://www.nairaland.com/2111800/mrs-aisha-buhari-9-10 http://www.nairaland.com/2111800/mrs-aisha-buhari-9-10 So... Be an atheist if you like, but be rational, and objective in your arguments.
  - humanrebar 9y ago
    Ah. That's called "prosperity theology" or "prosperity gospel" in Western Christianity. Joel Osteen, Paula White, and others also subscribe to that in varying ways and to varying degrees. It's worth noting that Western Christianity largely opposes that sort of teaching. To the point of throwing the word "heresy" around, which might not sound like much to outsiders, but mainstream Western Christians prefer to be theologically circumspect to a fault. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology#Criticism
    - armenarmen 9y ago
      Is there a direct lineage from Calvinism to the prosperity stuff?
      - humanrebar 9y ago
        It goes farther back. People have long thought, "The gods favor people with wealth and power". And similarly that people have thought certain acts (prayers, rituals, spells, sacrifices) would get the gods to do what they wanted. There's a logic to it since that's pretty much how people work. Prosperity theology attempts to fit that approach into the words of the Bible. It generally relies on out of context quotes, fallacious logic, and errors of omission (John the Baptist ate bugs, Jesus couch surfed, the apostles did chores to earn their keep) to make its case. The New Testament is clearly on the record against showy religious displays, ritual-based theology, and status symbols.
- SyneRyder 9y ago
  There was a good documentary on the overall Nigerian preacher scene a few years ago, by Channel 4. In Australia I think it was broadcast on the ABC as a Foreign Correspondent episode. “Nigeria’s Millionaire Preachers” with Seyi Rhodes https://vimeo.com/31656466 https://vimeo.com/31656466 It doesn't talk about this particular group & only briefly touches on the wider phenomenon - there's one scene where they're denied access to a church because not only is it private property, but all the streets and community around it are owned by the church too. The documentary focuses mainly on one preacher, Sign Fireman, who drives multiple yellow Hummers and records pop albums. The snake oil is his promise of performing miracles live on stage (including raising people back to life) in return for people donating 10% of their income to him.
aaron-lebo 9y ago
In the Bible Belt it's hard not to run across snake oil salesman, but an article for a faith and development class stressed how important them and prosperity gospel might actually be for the global south. If you come from nothing and have nothing and it's a massive generational climb to win any kind of power, a fervent if even delusional belief that against all odds god is going to grant you health and riches can actually be an incredible motivator. It leads to effective projects that actually empower the community like the above. Not sure how to feel about it. Joseph Smith for example was a complete charlatan and liar, but some of the most honest and hardworking people in tech and elsewere you will ever meet are Mormons. There's a lot of people on HN who have wrong beliefs about tech but are incredibly productive in spite of (or because of it), so it's hard to judge people too much if it works for them.
- theoh 9y ago
  From outside the US, the glaring problem with "prosperity gospel" thinking seems to be that the unfortunate (the "losers") are blamed for their misfortune. It seems like a case of selfish individualism being supported by religious doctrine. The fix for this is supposedly a certain dose of collectivist thinking, even just recognition of notions like "ubuntu".
  - smithmayowa 9y ago
    This is pretty much it they have developed a way to take credit for whatever good thing that happens to any member of their congregation while effectively blaming those with misfortune as the creators of their misfortune as they either did not pray enough or give their tithes to god.
    - kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
      I find it amusing how much these churches have adopted the very practices that Martin Luther rebelled against. Yet they have no problem casting aspersions upon the Roman church.
  - soundwave106 9y ago
pbhjpbhj 9y ago
Full comment quoted: >"Nigerian here, and yes this is truly happening in my country not just in Lagos state but all around with Ogun state pretty much taking the lead for the position of most mega churches in Nigeria. >"It is very nauseating that with all the poverty in my country snake oil prophets; (which is what they majorly are) would rather build mega churches/houses; (as their houses are mostly built with the churches) and schools with outrageous tuition fees from the proceeds of offering and tithes from those same gullible congregants who can't then afford to attend such schools or build such mega churches/houses for themselves." //
- vezycash 9y ago
  I had a gut reaction to attack that guy but decided to write two other comments first. About school fees - he's right. Their schools are bloody expensive in my opinion but not outrageous. They are private schools so it's to be expected. Also other non Christian private universities are priced the same or higher. About poverty. I'm not sure how confused the guy is because the cause of the "poverty" is elsewhere - the government. The rise in the power of churches is arguably because of the widespread poverty. People react to poverty differently. Some turn to crime, others to politics, police and others to religion. To gain a glimpse of the massive rape of the country, read the article below. http://www.nairaland.com/2055602/meet-largest-landlord-lagos-alhaji http://www.nairaland.com/2055602/meet-largest-landlord-lagos... Note: This untouchable thief is the leader of the current ruling party. Ps: To buy a plot of land in some of the areas cited in the article e.g. Ikoyi it could cost up to $300 million dollars per plot. Thanks for putting his comment in an easier to read format.
  - Lordarminius 9y ago
    > PS To buy a plot of land in some of the areas cited in the article e.g. Ikoyi it could cost up to $300 million dollars per plot. There is no plot of land in any estate in Nigeria worth $300 million.
    - vezycash 9y ago
      Yeah right. This one is $150 million https://ikoyi-obalende.jiji.ng/land-and-plots-for-sale/land-for-sale-6969140.html https://ikoyi-obalende.jiji.ng/land-and-plots-for-sale/land-...
noonespecial 9y ago
To take the contrarian view, the only difference between this and some alternative kleptocratic dictatorship of any other failing state is the invocation of God. They seem to be doing a fair job of civilization cut them some slack?
- virtuabhi 9y ago
  > and some alternative kleptocratic dictatorship of any other failing state Are you serious? The only alternative to mega Churches is "kleptocratic dictatorship of any other failing state". There are many countries who have done much better without the mega Churches leading their progress (India, China, Japan, X, Y, Z).
  - snambi 9y ago
    India has mega churches https://www.charismanews.com/opinion/32961-megachurches-multiplying-rapidly-in-india https://www.charismanews.com/opinion/32961-megachurches-mult...
- gozur88 9y ago
  Kleptocratic dictatorships aren't voluntary.
  - Abekkus 9y ago
    There's a fine line of volition that is arguably crossed when involving tested social constructs that leverage human weakness better than many chemical addictions.

simias 9y ago

This is an interesting comment but you should edit it to remove the spaces at the beginning of the lines to make it more readable.

humanrebar 9y ago

> snake oil prophets Can I get more details on the "snake oil" and other shenanigans? The article mostly describes a civic phenomenon without really describing the organization's views or behavior, neither inside nor outside the context of Nigeria. Some background on the theology of the group also interests me.

smithmayowa 9y ago
They utilize a system whereby they have convinced people that the level of their prosperity is related to the love and favor that god has for them, they also always praise the wealthy for their generous donations to the church and always bemoan the other congregation to work towards becoming wealthy quoting scriptures in contexts that supports their claim e.g ["we are overcoming","the children of god shall inherit the earth","god is wealthy so we must all be too"] e.t.c. Now what do you think happens after this sort of conditioning, well those who are not wealthy want to become wealthy by force and those who have want to donate more than their peers to be praised and exalted in front of their same peers, the sad part of it all is they always end up praising corrupt politicians, fraudsters and people with suspicious source of wealth. I pretty much stopped caring about it all after getting tired of always having to put on my best clothes to church every Sunday so as not to be looked down upon by others or hearing how i didn't give enough to god and should do better every service. It all just stopped being important plus i discovered other things to focus my time on and also became an atheist, but sadly members of my family still believe in those stuffs though.
- vezycash 9y ago
  You sound like a young guy because it wasn't long ago that the biggest churches preached "holiness" above all. Indeed one of their favorite bible quotes was, "It's easier for a donkey to pass through an eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven." Redeemed Christian church only started asking for tithes in recent years. Adeboye didn't want members to feel burdened. His words, "God said I'm blocking blessings of members by not telling them to pay tithe." As for your cloth experience, boo hoo. Sounds like someone who has bad experiences with one or two members of the opposite sex and concludes that ALL men, ALL women are... Are there criminals, lazy bums disguised as pastors. Yes, just last week alone I read of a Nigerian pastor who raped a pregnant woman, one who slept with a 12 year old, an animal who slit the throat of the young son of a member, another who duped a woman into donating her jeep to him and many more. But that can be said of the Nigerian police, lecturers... Even the freakin president. The first lady was carrying his child at 12 years of age. http://www.nairaland.com/2111800/mrs-aisha-buhari-9-10 http://www.nairaland.com/2111800/mrs-aisha-buhari-9-10 So... Be an atheist if you like, but be rational, and objective in your arguments.
- humanrebar 9y ago
  Ah. That's called "prosperity theology" or "prosperity gospel" in Western Christianity. Joel Osteen, Paula White, and others also subscribe to that in varying ways and to varying degrees. It's worth noting that Western Christianity largely opposes that sort of teaching. To the point of throwing the word "heresy" around, which might not sound like much to outsiders, but mainstream Western Christians prefer to be theologically circumspect to a fault. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology#Criticism
  - armenarmen 9y ago
    Is there a direct lineage from Calvinism to the prosperity stuff?
    - humanrebar 9y ago
      It goes farther back. People have long thought, "The gods favor people with wealth and power". And similarly that people have thought certain acts (prayers, rituals, spells, sacrifices) would get the gods to do what they wanted. There's a logic to it since that's pretty much how people work. Prosperity theology attempts to fit that approach into the words of the Bible. It generally relies on out of context quotes, fallacious logic, and errors of omission (John the Baptist ate bugs, Jesus couch surfed, the apostles did chores to earn their keep) to make its case. The New Testament is clearly on the record against showy religious displays, ritual-based theology, and status symbols.
SyneRyder 9y ago
There was a good documentary on the overall Nigerian preacher scene a few years ago, by Channel 4. In Australia I think it was broadcast on the ABC as a Foreign Correspondent episode. “Nigeria’s Millionaire Preachers” with Seyi Rhodes https://vimeo.com/31656466 https://vimeo.com/31656466 It doesn't talk about this particular group & only briefly touches on the wider phenomenon - there's one scene where they're denied access to a church because not only is it private property, but all the streets and community around it are owned by the church too. The documentary focuses mainly on one preacher, Sign Fireman, who drives multiple yellow Hummers and records pop albums. The snake oil is his promise of performing miracles live on stage (including raising people back to life) in return for people donating 10% of their income to him.

aaron-lebo 9y ago

In the Bible Belt it's hard not to run across snake oil salesman, but an article for a faith and development class stressed how important them and prosperity gospel might actually be for the global south. If you come from nothing and have nothing and it's a massive generational climb to win any kind of power, a fervent if even delusional belief that against all odds god is going to grant you health and riches can actually be an incredible motivator. It leads to effective projects that actually empower the community like the above. Not sure how to feel about it. Joseph Smith for example was a complete charlatan and liar, but some of the most honest and hardworking people in tech and elsewere you will ever meet are Mormons. There's a lot of people on HN who have wrong beliefs about tech but are incredibly productive in spite of (or because of it), so it's hard to judge people too much if it works for them.

theoh 9y ago
From outside the US, the glaring problem with "prosperity gospel" thinking seems to be that the unfortunate (the "losers") are blamed for their misfortune. It seems like a case of selfish individualism being supported by religious doctrine. The fix for this is supposedly a certain dose of collectivist thinking, even just recognition of notions like "ubuntu".
- smithmayowa 9y ago
  This is pretty much it they have developed a way to take credit for whatever good thing that happens to any member of their congregation while effectively blaming those with misfortune as the creators of their misfortune as they either did not pray enough or give their tithes to god.
  - kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
    I find it amusing how much these churches have adopted the very practices that Martin Luther rebelled against. Yet they have no problem casting aspersions upon the Roman church.
- soundwave106 9y ago

pbhjpbhj 9y ago

Full comment quoted: >"Nigerian here, and yes this is truly happening in my country not just in Lagos state but all around with Ogun state pretty much taking the lead for the position of most mega churches in Nigeria. >"It is very nauseating that with all the poverty in my country snake oil prophets; (which is what they majorly are) would rather build mega churches/houses; (as their houses are mostly built with the churches) and schools with outrageous tuition fees from the proceeds of offering and tithes from those same gullible congregants who can't then afford to attend such schools or build such mega churches/houses for themselves." //

vezycash 9y ago
I had a gut reaction to attack that guy but decided to write two other comments first. About school fees - he's right. Their schools are bloody expensive in my opinion but not outrageous. They are private schools so it's to be expected. Also other non Christian private universities are priced the same or higher. About poverty. I'm not sure how confused the guy is because the cause of the "poverty" is elsewhere - the government. The rise in the power of churches is arguably because of the widespread poverty. People react to poverty differently. Some turn to crime, others to politics, police and others to religion. To gain a glimpse of the massive rape of the country, read the article below. http://www.nairaland.com/2055602/meet-largest-landlord-lagos-alhaji http://www.nairaland.com/2055602/meet-largest-landlord-lagos... Note: This untouchable thief is the leader of the current ruling party. Ps: To buy a plot of land in some of the areas cited in the article e.g. Ikoyi it could cost up to $300 million dollars per plot. Thanks for putting his comment in an easier to read format.
- Lordarminius 9y ago
  > PS To buy a plot of land in some of the areas cited in the article e.g. Ikoyi it could cost up to $300 million dollars per plot. There is no plot of land in any estate in Nigeria worth $300 million.
  - vezycash 9y ago
    Yeah right. This one is $150 million https://ikoyi-obalende.jiji.ng/land-and-plots-for-sale/land-for-sale-6969140.html https://ikoyi-obalende.jiji.ng/land-and-plots-for-sale/land-...

noonespecial 9y ago

To take the contrarian view, the only difference between this and some alternative kleptocratic dictatorship of any other failing state is the invocation of God. They seem to be doing a fair job of civilization cut them some slack?

virtuabhi 9y ago
> and some alternative kleptocratic dictatorship of any other failing state Are you serious? The only alternative to mega Churches is "kleptocratic dictatorship of any other failing state". There are many countries who have done much better without the mega Churches leading their progress (India, China, Japan, X, Y, Z).
- snambi 9y ago
  India has mega churches https://www.charismanews.com/opinion/32961-megachurches-multiplying-rapidly-in-india https://www.charismanews.com/opinion/32961-megachurches-mult...
gozur88 9y ago
Kleptocratic dictatorships aren't voluntary.
- Abekkus 9y ago
  There's a fine line of volition that is arguably crossed when involving tested social constructs that leverage human weakness better than many chemical addictions.