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Unfortunately much (> 60%) of China's electricity comes from dirty sources (largely coal). Until this is fixed, the environmental benefits of EVs there will be

Unfortunately much (> 60%) of China's electricity comes from dirty sources (largely coal). Until this is fixed, the environmental benefits of EVs there will be limited.

lifty 9y ago
Do you know how US fares in that regard?
- Para2016 9y ago
  Less coal, more natural gas
- mikeash 9y ago
  Some info here: https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.cfm?page=electricity_in_the_united_states#tab2 https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.cfm?page=electrici... Quick summary: about 34% natural gas, 30% coal, 20% nuclear, 15% renewables, 1% other. Coal is on a pretty strong downward trend so expect that number to go down, and others to go up. Of course, it's a big country so your local power generation is probably more relevant. You can find out about your local generating mix here: https://oaspub.epa.gov/powpro/ept_pack.charts https://oaspub.epa.gov/powpro/ept_pack.charts
  - gok 9y ago
    edit: [there was a typo, now fixed]
    - mikeash 9y ago
      Thanks, I must have pushed a little too lightly on the 5 key.
devy 9y ago
> Until this is fixed, the environmental benefits of EVs there will be limited. That's largely untrue. In urban Chinese cities, the tailpipe exhaust is one of the biggest cause of the smog and air pollution. The anecdotal evidence is that I was raise in a small city that has virtually no major factories yet still have been suffered from air pollution and smog. While small factories were forced to be closed (due to environmental regulations in recent years) the number of the motor vehicles (cars, trucks and motorcycles) on the road has raised 10x. As a result, air pollution has been getting worse. It's unrealistic to expect 100% of the power in the grid coming from green energy sources, let alone the idea of waiting till then to pushing EV adoption. Green energy transition should be gradual, one step at the time.
- JPKab 9y ago
  Agreed. Even if 100% of the electricity was produced by coal, anytime you reduce the sources of pollution from millions of tailpipes to a few thousand power plants, you can easily regulate and install scrubbers to reduce the pollutants.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    Unfortunately, many power plants in china ignore environmental regulations and don't install scrubbers (or have them but don't turn them on when officials aren't looking). China's pollution problem is primarily one of governance and rule of law.
    - xster 9y ago
      A power plant that don't have a scrubber is likely still less polluting that 10000 power plants that have to weigh 150kg and that have an equally low likelihood of having any environmentally friendly implements.
      - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
        Actually, auto exhausts in first tier cities that implement stricter emissions standards and disallow selling low quality gasoline are not that bad. The problem are the blue trucks that come in from the provinces at night that don't have good emissions equipment and are running on crappy gas. You could actually see the air quality get WORSE in Beijing after 11 pm, when few personal cars are on the road but the Hebei trucks start coming in.
  - njarboe 9y ago
    Maybe, but in the US it ended up being quicker to get 95% of cars with catalytic converters then to get scrubbers on 95% of the coal plants. It seems power plant owners have more power to push against regulation than car owners.
    - deleted 9y ago
567arlo 9y ago
True, but I believe a standard reply to this from a pro EV perspective is that it's still better to be using fossil fuel->grid->EV than fossil fuel->ICE because of the overall efficiency of the former's process over the latter's, to the extent that it results in less CO2 emitted per mile driven in an EV over an ICE vehicle.
aphextron 9y ago
>Unfortunately much (> 60%) of China's electricity comes from dirty sources (largely coal). Until this is fixed, the environmental benefits of EVs there will be limited. True, but with China it never helps much to look at where they are instantaneously. It's all about the rate of change. They are extremely aggressive with their renewables goals. Far beyond the US or EU.
- harigov 9y ago
  It makes a lot of economic sense for them, even more so than other countries because they don't have that much oil resources. Same with India. Not to negate the fact that China is in general very aggressive in working towards their goals.
  - melling 9y ago
    China has 20 nuclear plants under construction: http://www.scmp.com/business/companies/article/2107354/china-pips-us-race-start-worlds-most-advanced-nuclear-power-plant http://www.scmp.com/business/companies/article/2107354/china... The new AP1000s are almost done. Hopefully they get the costs under control so they can build 100 of them. Bill Gates’ Terrapower is developing the next gen plants in China: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2015/10/02/bill-gates-forges-nuclear-deal-with-china/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2015/10/02/bill-gate...
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  They build renewables out west yet don't have the grid yet to move any of that power to the east where it would be used. So the rate of renewable production is still far higher than renewable consumption. They will probably fix that eventually, but it just goes to show about the weirdness of rapid growth. Also, china will never have the renewable capacity of Norway, which gets almost all of its electricity from hydro.
  - politician 9y ago
    It's not accurate to say that China doesn't yet move power to the east. They've been building UHV transmission pretty much continuously since 2009. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-voltage_electricity_transmission_in_China#UHV_circuits_completed_or_under_construction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-voltage_electricity...
avar 9y ago
http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green debunks this myth. As other comments point out even if the CO2 per kilometer were the same the reduction in urban pollution is a big win.
- gok 9y ago
  Debunks? That link reinforces the parent's argument. China's electricity is really dirty from CO2 perspective, and even worse with regards to other emissions like sulphur. The 256 grams of CO2 per km for a Nissan Leaf quoted in that article is in line with the 180g - 300g range for an American petrol-powered car. That said, this article is way out of date. China's electricity mix is much greener today than in 2009.
  - avar 9y ago
    It says the average is 300g, and 256<300. So it was already better in 2009, and as you note it's gotten better. New hybrids do 180, not the normal petrol cars China would otherwise be using.
azurezyq 9y ago
You cannot wait until your dependencies being all available before you doing anything. China is already the #1 investor in renewable energy and nuclear. Fully replacing coal is the final goal but it's a lengthy process (decades).
_ph_ 9y ago
Starting to go electric now means: - every electric car has no local emissions, so it has a direct impact from day one - if the grid gets cleaner, electric cars will pic that up and get cleaner too - even at 60% coal, the electric car has a slight advantage, as electric cars are way more efficient, especially in congested traffic, than combustion engines. - getting all cars electric will take 30 years, from the day no more combustion engines are sold, it still takes 10-15 years, so this needs to be done in parallel with cleaning up electricity production.

Unfortunately much (> 60%) of China's electricity comes from dirty sources (largely coal). Until this is fixed, the environmental benefits of EVs there will be limited.

lifty 9y ago

Do you know how US fares in that regard?

Para2016 9y ago
Less coal, more natural gas
mikeash 9y ago
Some info here: https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.cfm?page=electricity_in_the_united_states#tab2 https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.cfm?page=electrici... Quick summary: about 34% natural gas, 30% coal, 20% nuclear, 15% renewables, 1% other. Coal is on a pretty strong downward trend so expect that number to go down, and others to go up. Of course, it's a big country so your local power generation is probably more relevant. You can find out about your local generating mix here: https://oaspub.epa.gov/powpro/ept_pack.charts https://oaspub.epa.gov/powpro/ept_pack.charts
- gok 9y ago
  edit: [there was a typo, now fixed]
  - mikeash 9y ago
    Thanks, I must have pushed a little too lightly on the 5 key.

devy 9y ago

> Until this is fixed, the environmental benefits of EVs there will be limited. That's largely untrue. In urban Chinese cities, the tailpipe exhaust is one of the biggest cause of the smog and air pollution. The anecdotal evidence is that I was raise in a small city that has virtually no major factories yet still have been suffered from air pollution and smog. While small factories were forced to be closed (due to environmental regulations in recent years) the number of the motor vehicles (cars, trucks and motorcycles) on the road has raised 10x. As a result, air pollution has been getting worse. It's unrealistic to expect 100% of the power in the grid coming from green energy sources, let alone the idea of waiting till then to pushing EV adoption. Green energy transition should be gradual, one step at the time.

JPKab 9y ago
Agreed. Even if 100% of the electricity was produced by coal, anytime you reduce the sources of pollution from millions of tailpipes to a few thousand power plants, you can easily regulate and install scrubbers to reduce the pollutants.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  Unfortunately, many power plants in china ignore environmental regulations and don't install scrubbers (or have them but don't turn them on when officials aren't looking). China's pollution problem is primarily one of governance and rule of law.
  - xster 9y ago
    A power plant that don't have a scrubber is likely still less polluting that 10000 power plants that have to weigh 150kg and that have an equally low likelihood of having any environmentally friendly implements.
    - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
      Actually, auto exhausts in first tier cities that implement stricter emissions standards and disallow selling low quality gasoline are not that bad. The problem are the blue trucks that come in from the provinces at night that don't have good emissions equipment and are running on crappy gas. You could actually see the air quality get WORSE in Beijing after 11 pm, when few personal cars are on the road but the Hebei trucks start coming in.
- njarboe 9y ago
  Maybe, but in the US it ended up being quicker to get 95% of cars with catalytic converters then to get scrubbers on 95% of the coal plants. It seems power plant owners have more power to push against regulation than car owners.
  - deleted 9y ago

567arlo 9y ago

True, but I believe a standard reply to this from a pro EV perspective is that it's still better to be using fossil fuel->grid->EV than fossil fuel->ICE because of the overall efficiency of the former's process over the latter's, to the extent that it results in less CO2 emitted per mile driven in an EV over an ICE vehicle.

aphextron 9y ago

>Unfortunately much (> 60%) of China's electricity comes from dirty sources (largely coal). Until this is fixed, the environmental benefits of EVs there will be limited. True, but with China it never helps much to look at where they are instantaneously. It's all about the rate of change. They are extremely aggressive with their renewables goals. Far beyond the US or EU.

harigov 9y ago
It makes a lot of economic sense for them, even more so than other countries because they don't have that much oil resources. Same with India. Not to negate the fact that China is in general very aggressive in working towards their goals.
- melling 9y ago
  China has 20 nuclear plants under construction: http://www.scmp.com/business/companies/article/2107354/china-pips-us-race-start-worlds-most-advanced-nuclear-power-plant http://www.scmp.com/business/companies/article/2107354/china... The new AP1000s are almost done. Hopefully they get the costs under control so they can build 100 of them. Bill Gates’ Terrapower is developing the next gen plants in China: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2015/10/02/bill-gates-forges-nuclear-deal-with-china/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2015/10/02/bill-gate...
seanmcdirmid 9y ago
They build renewables out west yet don't have the grid yet to move any of that power to the east where it would be used. So the rate of renewable production is still far higher than renewable consumption. They will probably fix that eventually, but it just goes to show about the weirdness of rapid growth. Also, china will never have the renewable capacity of Norway, which gets almost all of its electricity from hydro.
- politician 9y ago
  It's not accurate to say that China doesn't yet move power to the east. They've been building UHV transmission pretty much continuously since 2009. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-voltage_electricity_transmission_in_China#UHV_circuits_completed_or_under_construction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-voltage_electricity...

avar 9y ago

http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green debunks this myth. As other comments point out even if the CO2 per kilometer were the same the reduction in urban pollution is a big win.

gok 9y ago
Debunks? That link reinforces the parent's argument. China's electricity is really dirty from CO2 perspective, and even worse with regards to other emissions like sulphur. The 256 grams of CO2 per km for a Nissan Leaf quoted in that article is in line with the 180g - 300g range for an American petrol-powered car. That said, this article is way out of date. China's electricity mix is much greener today than in 2009.
- avar 9y ago
  It says the average is 300g, and 256<300. So it was already better in 2009, and as you note it's gotten better. New hybrids do 180, not the normal petrol cars China would otherwise be using.

azurezyq 9y ago

You cannot wait until your dependencies being all available before you doing anything. China is already the #1 investor in renewable energy and nuclear. Fully replacing coal is the final goal but it's a lengthy process (decades).

_ph_ 9y ago

Starting to go electric now means: - every electric car has no local emissions, so it has a direct impact from day one - if the grid gets cleaner, electric cars will pic that up and get cleaner too - even at 60% coal, the electric car has a slight advantage, as electric cars are way more efficient, especially in congested traffic, than combustion engines. - getting all cars electric will take 30 years, from the day no more combustion engines are sold, it still takes 10-15 years, so this needs to be done in parallel with cleaning up electricity production.