6 ms·

> but there are no chinese Googles or Samsungs There is no american or european WeChat.

revelation 9y ago
They call it WhatsApp. It has more users than WeChat. For every successful social network or similar in everywhere but China there is a chinese clone whose main feature is that it spies on it's users for the government. It's not innovation, it's a bizarre Orwellian AOL portal maintained through first regulation then force.
- bllguo 9y ago
  That's reductionist to the point of absurdity. WeChat does far more than WhatsApp. I'd say it certainly started off aping others, but WeChat has now grown into a substantially more innovative platform.
  - lambda 9y ago
    What does WeChat do that isn't handled by other, separate apps? For instance, I don't really see a need to have the same app do chat and payment (in fact, I'd prefer if they didn't). What about WeChat is particularly innovative, other than just bundling a lot of different functionality into one big app?
    - koolba 9y ago
      > For instance, I don't really see a need to have the same app do chat and payment (in fact, I'd prefer if they didn't). You not seeing a need and them meeting one that clearly exists have nothing to do with each other. > What about WeChat is particularly innovative, other than just bundling a lot of different functionality into one big app? Making it actually work well enough for millions of people to use it. I can't think of anyone else who's succeeded at that and there are plenty that failed miserably to build that type of "kitchen sink" platform.
    - caoxuwen 9y ago
      I used it quite a bit when I was in China for things other than messaging. Have to say it was a great experience, it works with literally EVERYTHING. You walk on the street - bam the bagger is using wechat QR code to ask for donation. A large number of normal people I encountered don't even use their wallets anymore - menu on wechat, mobile payment on wechat, taxi on wechat, utility on wechat. It's something that after using it, you know there's no way back.
    - owebmaster 9y ago
      We are discussing innovation and if you look at how much money change hands inside WeChat it is clear that it is getting ahead of whatsapp and facebook messenger by leaps and bounds.
    - jdietrich 9y ago
      WeChat is deeply integrated, the UI is excellent, it's fast and responsive even on low-end handsets. It's a 40MB APK that could well be the only app you need. WeChat is incredibly feature-dense, but it's also slick, efficient and highly usable. I don't like the monolithic app model, but WeChat have implemented it extraordinarily well. Tencent are a phenomenal company that deserve far more respect in the west. The Chinese market may be distinctive, but WeChat's dominance of the Chinese market has come through innovation, clever design and good engineering.
  - revelation 9y ago
    Yes, it's AOL, powered with guns and tanks. You are making my point. It's all in the one app because there is the state in the background intervening to make it so. But dictatorships are not market validation.
    - Canada 9y ago
      You are absolutely correct - WeChat is what it is because of the great firewall. It's not that China blocked other messaging apps (though they do now), it's that China crippled the web and as a result users have been driven into these apps. You can see it in other ways as well - In the US people generally shop on the web, but in China people shop in an app and the web version is not as good. I guess some might call WeChat payments and mini programs innovative, but they're not very impressive technically. Take mini programs, they are basically a web app hosted within WeChat. It's kinda cool, like Facebook apps were kinda cool, but neither holds a candle to the power of a real browser. So Facebook apps were kind of a fad and then we got bored and went back to the open web. But Chinese people can't do that. It's not that they can't have web browsers, it's that they don't have any web innovation. It's not surprising, the web is so locked down with license requirements to even put up a simple web site. And so there's no good hosting options, which in turn makes it more productive just to stay on WeChat and sell your wares though Alibaba.
SolarNet 9y ago
Facebook arguably attempts to. The markets are different, and people prefer separate apps, rather than using facebook apps in the facebook app, but facebook still does the core part of all the different things.
- owebmaster 9y ago
  Before WeChat people also "prefered" separate apps. That is why I'm calling it a true innovation.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    People outside of mainland china (including Hong Kong and Taiwan) still prefer separate apps, and WeChat has been unable to acquire any significant marketshare outside of mainland Chinese users. Heck, even newly opened Myanmar is already dominated by google and Facebook. The GFW has severely crippled the web, coupled with the lack of card usage, created a situation that made wechat work for mainland china and can't really be replicated anywhere else.
    - owebmaster 9y ago
      > The GFW has severely crippled the web, coupled with the lack of card usage, created a situation that made wechat work for mainland china and can't really be replicated anywhere else. Until it can. This happens in tech regularly.
      - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
        Wechat simply has never had to compete with worldwide services. We can say it beat Facebook and google, but that would be stupid because both of those are blocked and have been for a long time. The fact that Chinese internet services are spurned in China's own backyard is telling.
        owebmaster 9y ago
ajross 9y ago
I guess. There's no one app, but nothing that WeChat does is serving a market that didn't exist in the west first. It's a triumph of integration, not so much innovation. So... sure. In some sense that makes it an exception that proves the rule. If China can be successful with WeChat where is its Tesla or Pfizer or Intel or Fujitsu or... I mean, there are times where a single counterexample can disprove a point. I don't know that this is one of them.
- owebmaster 9y ago
  > It's a triumph of integration, not so much innovation. So which system did they clone to become like this? Because if they are the first, I guess it is a lot of innovation.
  - ajross 9y ago
    Oh come on. I said it was good. It's just... not exactly the planar transistor or a CRISPR-CAS editing therapy, or even Android or iOS. It's a good company doing important but fundamentally simple stuff really well.
    - justicezyx 9y ago
      Wechat is more innovative than Android and iOS.
- Steko 9y ago
  > where is its Tesla or Pfizer or Intel or Fujitsu or This is the same argument people made about Japanese companies 40 years ago and then Korean companies 20 years ago. For the record: http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/IP.PAT.RESD/compare?country=cn#country=cn:xc:jp:us http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/IP.PAT.RESD/compa...
Animats 9y ago
Which is surprising. There's DoCoMo in Japan, but they're a phone company. WeChat didn't have that edge. Facebook could go that way if they wanted, but they haven't.
0x0 9y ago
To be honest I am surprised WeChat is even allowed in the iOS app store with its all-in-one multi app experience, since app experiences of that type are explicitly called out as disallowed in the app store guidelines section 2.5.8 - https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ (Actually, I'm not that surprised, they're probably too big to fail and Apple really wants to sell iOS devices in China)

They call it WhatsApp. It has more users than WeChat. For every successful social network or similar in everywhere but China there is a chinese clone whose main feature is that it spies on it's users for the government. It's not innovation, it's a bizarre Orwellian AOL portal maintained through first regulation then force.

bllguo 9y ago
That's reductionist to the point of absurdity. WeChat does far more than WhatsApp. I'd say it certainly started off aping others, but WeChat has now grown into a substantially more innovative platform.
- lambda 9y ago
  What does WeChat do that isn't handled by other, separate apps? For instance, I don't really see a need to have the same app do chat and payment (in fact, I'd prefer if they didn't). What about WeChat is particularly innovative, other than just bundling a lot of different functionality into one big app?
  - koolba 9y ago
    > For instance, I don't really see a need to have the same app do chat and payment (in fact, I'd prefer if they didn't). You not seeing a need and them meeting one that clearly exists have nothing to do with each other. > What about WeChat is particularly innovative, other than just bundling a lot of different functionality into one big app? Making it actually work well enough for millions of people to use it. I can't think of anyone else who's succeeded at that and there are plenty that failed miserably to build that type of "kitchen sink" platform.
  - caoxuwen 9y ago
    I used it quite a bit when I was in China for things other than messaging. Have to say it was a great experience, it works with literally EVERYTHING. You walk on the street - bam the bagger is using wechat QR code to ask for donation. A large number of normal people I encountered don't even use their wallets anymore - menu on wechat, mobile payment on wechat, taxi on wechat, utility on wechat. It's something that after using it, you know there's no way back.
  - owebmaster 9y ago
    We are discussing innovation and if you look at how much money change hands inside WeChat it is clear that it is getting ahead of whatsapp and facebook messenger by leaps and bounds.
  - jdietrich 9y ago
    WeChat is deeply integrated, the UI is excellent, it's fast and responsive even on low-end handsets. It's a 40MB APK that could well be the only app you need. WeChat is incredibly feature-dense, but it's also slick, efficient and highly usable. I don't like the monolithic app model, but WeChat have implemented it extraordinarily well. Tencent are a phenomenal company that deserve far more respect in the west. The Chinese market may be distinctive, but WeChat's dominance of the Chinese market has come through innovation, clever design and good engineering.
- revelation 9y ago
  Yes, it's AOL, powered with guns and tanks. You are making my point. It's all in the one app because there is the state in the background intervening to make it so. But dictatorships are not market validation.
  - Canada 9y ago
    You are absolutely correct - WeChat is what it is because of the great firewall. It's not that China blocked other messaging apps (though they do now), it's that China crippled the web and as a result users have been driven into these apps. You can see it in other ways as well - In the US people generally shop on the web, but in China people shop in an app and the web version is not as good. I guess some might call WeChat payments and mini programs innovative, but they're not very impressive technically. Take mini programs, they are basically a web app hosted within WeChat. It's kinda cool, like Facebook apps were kinda cool, but neither holds a candle to the power of a real browser. So Facebook apps were kind of a fad and then we got bored and went back to the open web. But Chinese people can't do that. It's not that they can't have web browsers, it's that they don't have any web innovation. It's not surprising, the web is so locked down with license requirements to even put up a simple web site. And so there's no good hosting options, which in turn makes it more productive just to stay on WeChat and sell your wares though Alibaba.

SolarNet 9y ago

Facebook arguably attempts to. The markets are different, and people prefer separate apps, rather than using facebook apps in the facebook app, but facebook still does the core part of all the different things.

owebmaster 9y ago
Before WeChat people also "prefered" separate apps. That is why I'm calling it a true innovation.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  People outside of mainland china (including Hong Kong and Taiwan) still prefer separate apps, and WeChat has been unable to acquire any significant marketshare outside of mainland Chinese users. Heck, even newly opened Myanmar is already dominated by google and Facebook. The GFW has severely crippled the web, coupled with the lack of card usage, created a situation that made wechat work for mainland china and can't really be replicated anywhere else.
  - owebmaster 9y ago
    > The GFW has severely crippled the web, coupled with the lack of card usage, created a situation that made wechat work for mainland china and can't really be replicated anywhere else. Until it can. This happens in tech regularly.
    - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
      Wechat simply has never had to compete with worldwide services. We can say it beat Facebook and google, but that would be stupid because both of those are blocked and have been for a long time. The fact that Chinese internet services are spurned in China's own backyard is telling.
      - owebmaster 9y ago

ajross 9y ago

I guess. There's no one app, but nothing that WeChat does is serving a market that didn't exist in the west first. It's a triumph of integration, not so much innovation. So... sure. In some sense that makes it an exception that proves the rule. If China can be successful with WeChat where is its Tesla or Pfizer or Intel or Fujitsu or... I mean, there are times where a single counterexample can disprove a point. I don't know that this is one of them.

owebmaster 9y ago
> It's a triumph of integration, not so much innovation. So which system did they clone to become like this? Because if they are the first, I guess it is a lot of innovation.
- ajross 9y ago
  Oh come on. I said it was good. It's just... not exactly the planar transistor or a CRISPR-CAS editing therapy, or even Android or iOS. It's a good company doing important but fundamentally simple stuff really well.
  - justicezyx 9y ago
    Wechat is more innovative than Android and iOS.
Steko 9y ago
> where is its Tesla or Pfizer or Intel or Fujitsu or This is the same argument people made about Japanese companies 40 years ago and then Korean companies 20 years ago. For the record: http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/IP.PAT.RESD/compare?country=cn#country=cn:xc:jp:us http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/IP.PAT.RESD/compa...

Animats 9y ago

Which is surprising. There's DoCoMo in Japan, but they're a phone company. WeChat didn't have that edge. Facebook could go that way if they wanted, but they haven't.

0x0 9y ago

To be honest I am surprised WeChat is even allowed in the iOS app store with its all-in-one multi app experience, since app experiences of that type are explicitly called out as disallowed in the app store guidelines section 2.5.8 - https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ (Actually, I'm not that surprised, they're probably too big to fail and Apple really wants to sell iOS devices in China)