4 ms·

I'm frightened by how a seemingly pragmatic government has been able to spiral into dogmatic, protectionists policies so rapidly. I suppose that I mistook the r

I'm frightened by how a seemingly pragmatic government has been able to spiral into dogmatic, protectionists policies so rapidly. I suppose that I mistook the recent decades of economic development as evidence of true ideological reform taking place. Now I feel naive for expecting more from the government that imprisoned the father of their ubiquitous high speed rail system. The Eastern desire to require "harmonious thoughts" is so at odds with the skepticism required to birth true innovations. I was once convinced that China was on the verge of becoming a new force in modern technology. But after seeing a long line of regulations meant to increase the echo of their political echo chamber, I doubt technological innovation can linger much longer.

donatj 9y ago
> I was once convinced that China was on the verge of becoming a new force in modern technology They have amazingly intelligent people and a wonderful hacker community, the problem is it stands entirely at odds with the government's "what's best for society" attitude. The problem most overtly controlling government's aren't willing to accept is that what's best for society this exact moment might not be what's best for it overall. This is why there's no Chinese technology leaders, no Chinese Apple. Communism brews mediocrity.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- darpa_escapee 9y ago
  OTOH, Alibaba, wechat etc
  - donatj 9y ago
    Have you actually used any of these? Alibaba is worse than Craigslist. Leaders they are not,
    - paradite 9y ago
      On top of my head: - Chat/Social Media: Wechat's P2P money transfer, cashless transaction - Drone: DJI - Phone: Xiaomi Mi Mix, One Plus series - JS framework: Vue.js
      - gruez 9y ago
        > Chat/Social Media: Wechat's P2P money transfer, cashless transaction helps when there are no foreign competitors (thanks, GFW!), and credit/debit card infrastructure is underdeveloped > Phone: Xiaomi Mi Mix, One Plus series Both of which are barely profitable or operating at a loss >JS framework: Vue.js MVVC with html bindings has been around for years now
        paradite 9y ago
        So I'm just wondering if your measurement of success/leader is based on innovation, profitability, or popularity? Because you seem to be picking the whatever that suit your argument, while we usually consider any one of them to be an achievement.
        gruez 9y ago
        I think you were ultimately referencing this line >This is why there's no Chinese technology leaders, no Chinese Apple Going off that, > Chat/Social Media: Wechat's P2P money transfer, cashless transaction same point as in my original comment, and it shows because there's barely any use outside of china (and maybe expat communities). they're only a "leader" in china. > Phone: Xiaomi Mi Mix, One Plus series For one, apple has killer margins on its phones, whereas they do not. Even comparing among android phone manufacturers, they're worse in terms of market share and profitability (as opposed to Samsung, for instance). Their only selling point their $/performance, which will surely disappear when their VC subsidy runs out. "leaders" aren't underdogs. "leaders" don't sell discounted phones at a loss. >JS framework: Vue.js I can't say i know the js ecosystem very well, but vue.js does seem to be the fastest growing MVVC framework (at least in the realm of logic-in-tags languages). But the problem I see is that javascript frameworks come and go, and it could very well drop off a cliff in a year or two after the next hottest thing comes out. Is it a leader? Sure, for now...
- 1_2__4 9y ago
  You act as if the Chinese populace doesn't broadly suppprt their government, including these kinds of restrictions.
  - sgift 9y ago
    It's hard to know if they do - everyone who dares to state something else finds themselves in dire circumstances.
  - yorwba 9y ago
    I'd say those who aren't affected don't care much. The rest tries to find ways around it. Every student I met during an exchange semester in Shanghai was using a VPN to access foreign websites.
- rkido 9y ago
  Um, you seem to be unaware of Tencent and Alibaba, both vast enterprises. Tencent owns League of Legends, the biggest multiplayer game in the world, as well as WeChat, which is comparable to WhatsApp in number of users. WeChat is revered by tech leaders in the West, it basically blows everything else out of the water in terms of features and robustness.
  - tyrell_corp 9y ago
    Tencent did not create League of Legends. They just bought the company that did, Riot Games(American).
seanmcdirmid 9y ago
Innovation in china is a numbers game: there are going to be more than a few people who are unharmonious enough to innovate, despite the government's best efforts. Just look at how many Chinese are interested in jumping the wall. Of course, if they keep this up, hose people will just continue to emigrate (we will have lots of innovation from Chinese, even if they don't do it in China).
marcoperaza 9y ago
>I'm frightened by how a seemingly pragmatic government has been able to spiral into dogmatic, protectionists policies so rapidly. What makes you think that this is ideological rather than pragmatic? They look to America and they see the greatest power of all time being torn apart by internal cultural and political conflict. I don't like China's authoritarian system–not one bit–but I can see the logic motivating its leaders.
- chairmanwow 9y ago
  An understandable misconception when the freedom of presses enables publicly airing anyone's dirty laundry. Not to mention that (god forbid) there is actual debate and conflict between our citizens on the best way to handle issues. These differences are nonetheless not my biggest grief with China. The moment you restrict criticism of your institution, you have committed to sacrificing pragmatism for ideology. Pragmatism requires commitment to the truth, which can only come from the status quo being continually challenged.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
bryananderson 9y ago
They're still being pragmatic - they're trying to stay in power. China is ruled by a one-party oligarchy that acts pragmatically in its own interest, not in the people's. A China with higher risk of regime change - even if it's a stronger and more prosperous China - is not in their interest.
- sangnoir 9y ago
  > A China with higher risk of regime change - even if it's a stronger and more prosperous China - is not in their interest. Substitute a few words in there and you would be describing Brexit today. Every ruling regime think they are the best thing for the country and are unlikely to voluntarily step down even when the truth is conyrary to that idea.
- legulere 9y ago
  A regime change is not really in the interest of anyone. There are no democratic elites to replace them. Just look what happened of the Arab Spring. The goal needs to be a slow but steady democratisation process.
tim333 9y ago
>The Eastern desire to require "harmonious thoughts" is so at odds with the skepticism required to birth true innovations. China: Paper Making, Movable Type Printing, Gunpowder, Compass, Alcohol, Mechanical Clocks, Toothbrush, Paper Money, rockets Japan: The calculator, Walkman, blue LEDs, dvds, video cameras etc they seem to come up with some stuff in spite of "harmonious thoughts." I think "commie dictatorship" may be more of an issue.

donatj 9y ago

> I was once convinced that China was on the verge of becoming a new force in modern technology They have amazingly intelligent people and a wonderful hacker community, the problem is it stands entirely at odds with the government's "what's best for society" attitude. The problem most overtly controlling government's aren't willing to accept is that what's best for society this exact moment might not be what's best for it overall. This is why there's no Chinese technology leaders, no Chinese Apple. Communism brews mediocrity.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
darpa_escapee 9y ago
OTOH, Alibaba, wechat etc
- donatj 9y ago
  Have you actually used any of these? Alibaba is worse than Craigslist. Leaders they are not,
  - paradite 9y ago
    On top of my head: - Chat/Social Media: Wechat's P2P money transfer, cashless transaction - Drone: DJI - Phone: Xiaomi Mi Mix, One Plus series - JS framework: Vue.js
    - gruez 9y ago
      > Chat/Social Media: Wechat's P2P money transfer, cashless transaction helps when there are no foreign competitors (thanks, GFW!), and credit/debit card infrastructure is underdeveloped > Phone: Xiaomi Mi Mix, One Plus series Both of which are barely profitable or operating at a loss >JS framework: Vue.js MVVC with html bindings has been around for years now
      - paradite 9y ago
        So I'm just wondering if your measurement of success/leader is based on innovation, profitability, or popularity? Because you seem to be picking the whatever that suit your argument, while we usually consider any one of them to be an achievement.
        gruez 9y ago
        I think you were ultimately referencing this line >This is why there's no Chinese technology leaders, no Chinese Apple Going off that, > Chat/Social Media: Wechat's P2P money transfer, cashless transaction same point as in my original comment, and it shows because there's barely any use outside of china (and maybe expat communities). they're only a "leader" in china. > Phone: Xiaomi Mi Mix, One Plus series For one, apple has killer margins on its phones, whereas they do not. Even comparing among android phone manufacturers, they're worse in terms of market share and profitability (as opposed to Samsung, for instance). Their only selling point their $/performance, which will surely disappear when their VC subsidy runs out. "leaders" aren't underdogs. "leaders" don't sell discounted phones at a loss. >JS framework: Vue.js I can't say i know the js ecosystem very well, but vue.js does seem to be the fastest growing MVVC framework (at least in the realm of logic-in-tags languages). But the problem I see is that javascript frameworks come and go, and it could very well drop off a cliff in a year or two after the next hottest thing comes out. Is it a leader? Sure, for now...
1_2__4 9y ago
You act as if the Chinese populace doesn't broadly suppprt their government, including these kinds of restrictions.
- sgift 9y ago
  It's hard to know if they do - everyone who dares to state something else finds themselves in dire circumstances.
- yorwba 9y ago
  I'd say those who aren't affected don't care much. The rest tries to find ways around it. Every student I met during an exchange semester in Shanghai was using a VPN to access foreign websites.
rkido 9y ago
Um, you seem to be unaware of Tencent and Alibaba, both vast enterprises. Tencent owns League of Legends, the biggest multiplayer game in the world, as well as WeChat, which is comparable to WhatsApp in number of users. WeChat is revered by tech leaders in the West, it basically blows everything else out of the water in terms of features and robustness.
- tyrell_corp 9y ago
  Tencent did not create League of Legends. They just bought the company that did, Riot Games(American).

seanmcdirmid 9y ago

Innovation in china is a numbers game: there are going to be more than a few people who are unharmonious enough to innovate, despite the government's best efforts. Just look at how many Chinese are interested in jumping the wall. Of course, if they keep this up, hose people will just continue to emigrate (we will have lots of innovation from Chinese, even if they don't do it in China).

marcoperaza 9y ago

>I'm frightened by how a seemingly pragmatic government has been able to spiral into dogmatic, protectionists policies so rapidly. What makes you think that this is ideological rather than pragmatic? They look to America and they see the greatest power of all time being torn apart by internal cultural and political conflict. I don't like China's authoritarian system–not one bit–but I can see the logic motivating its leaders.

chairmanwow 9y ago
An understandable misconception when the freedom of presses enables publicly airing anyone's dirty laundry. Not to mention that (god forbid) there is actual debate and conflict between our citizens on the best way to handle issues. These differences are nonetheless not my biggest grief with China. The moment you restrict criticism of your institution, you have committed to sacrificing pragmatism for ideology. Pragmatism requires commitment to the truth, which can only come from the status quo being continually challenged.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

bryananderson 9y ago

They're still being pragmatic - they're trying to stay in power. China is ruled by a one-party oligarchy that acts pragmatically in its own interest, not in the people's. A China with higher risk of regime change - even if it's a stronger and more prosperous China - is not in their interest.

sangnoir 9y ago
> A China with higher risk of regime change - even if it's a stronger and more prosperous China - is not in their interest. Substitute a few words in there and you would be describing Brexit today. Every ruling regime think they are the best thing for the country and are unlikely to voluntarily step down even when the truth is conyrary to that idea.
legulere 9y ago
A regime change is not really in the interest of anyone. There are no democratic elites to replace them. Just look what happened of the Arab Spring. The goal needs to be a slow but steady democratisation process.

tim333 9y ago

>The Eastern desire to require "harmonious thoughts" is so at odds with the skepticism required to birth true innovations. China: Paper Making, Movable Type Printing, Gunpowder, Compass, Alcohol, Mechanical Clocks, Toothbrush, Paper Money, rockets Japan: The calculator, Walkman, blue LEDs, dvds, video cameras etc they seem to come up with some stuff in spite of "harmonious thoughts." I think "commie dictatorship" may be more of an issue.