7 ms·

The problem is that with the immigration situation, those jobs pay less than minimum wage, have horrible working conditions, and people often don't get paid. T

The problem is that with the immigration situation, those jobs pay less than minimum wage, have horrible working conditions, and people often don't get paid. That's why the solution is a) A border fence, b) Much more strict employer enforcement, and c) Amnesty for those here, once a and b are accomplished. That way, the workforce stabilizes, and there is work for people in the U.S. who don't have a lot of skills. There probably aren't a lot of these people on HN, but many people just aren't going to be able to work a high-end job. We need something decent to do for those people. The problem is that right now, you can't have a first world existence on what a farmhand job pays. The second step is probably drug legalization, because our drug laws have turned Mexico into a failed state, and it's impossible for Mexico to build a decent economy with the level of crime that they have.

vinhboy 16y ago
Do you think farmers can afford to hire workers at higher rates?
thesethings 16y ago
From my experience (read on), jobs illegal immigrants have get paid at least minimum wage (Not that this is livable). Most illegal immigrants get a social security number through underground document-makers. They give that number to the employer (who knows it's fake, but acts otherwise). I've befriended many Mexican immigrants, illegal and legal, and have even gone to a house that makes these documents. (It was surprisingly low-cost. ) Now this doesn't speak to your other point, about whether a farmhand job is livable for anybody. But my main point is: it's probably a legit job that withholds taxes and everything. There is a large set of jobs that has a high-turnover rate for everybody who works in them. Overnight cleaning crews in offices, table bussers, farmhands... This turnover rate is high for everybody, legal and illegal, who works there. My guess is that the employers assume anybody who works there will leave soon, and it's not worth thoroughly vetting whether the ss# belongs to a dead guy. As for my opinion on all this... I'm still working it out. I'm also biased, have lots of Mexican family on this of the border, and am admittedly sentimental about it. Ideally we can first focus on making any job livable, and THEN worry about who gets to have it.
ryanelkins 16y ago
Seriously? A border fence? I didn't think many people actually took that serious as a deterrent. Have you seen the Penn and Teller show where they pay (legally questionable) immigrants to build a length of fence using the same specs as the border fence - then pay them to go over, under, and through it? I just remember they were on the other side pretty quick. Then there's the cost to build and maintain... it's just such a ridiculous idea to me.
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  Do you really believe that securing a border is impossible? Or are you simply suggesting that the US military is less capable of securing a border than the Indian, Chinese, Israeli or South Korean military?
  - ryanelkins 16y ago
    There is a difference between "securing a border" and "building a 2,000 mile long fence". A fence by itself does pretty much nothing but slow people down slightly. I made no suggestions about the US military's capabilities - although the fact that this discussion exists seems to make some implications.
    - yummyfajitas 16y ago
      Many people make the argument that it's impossible to secure our border, I thought you were doing the same. My mistake, I misinterpreted your post. If you were simply discussing the tactic of building a fence with no other guard measures, I agree with you; a fence is not sufficient.
      - jbooth 16y ago
        Ok, so how many guard measures do we need to be sufficient? How many deployed forces, with what orders in regards to violence? How much will it cost? Are we suspending Habeus Corpus for this?
jamn 16y ago
This is something that actually has puzzled me for a while, so if someone can provide me with some economics insight I'd appreciate it. The question is: why does it make economic sense to refuse a cheap labor force? If suddenly some aliens came to the US and said "we have figured out a way to get free food. have all the food you need here", would there be complaints about the number of farmers that are losing their jobs or unfairly competing against free products? Theoretically, it seems to me that the positive aggregate effect on consumers is larger than the negative (and very regrettable) effect on the farmers. For this reason, wouldn't it make more sense to have the consumers compensate the farmers by helping them pay for their education, etc, so that they can find new jobs? This seems to me as the efficient way to think about immigration. Where I come from (Mexico, of all places), I hear people sometimes complain about how computers shouldn't be allowed on certain government offices, since they will leave thousands of people without a job. I'd say that, if they can find a different job, then we can all be better off by finding cheaper production factors.
- clammer 16y ago
  I think that's a really good point, to which I think the answer is that the cheap labor force isn't naturally occurring. It's caused be the combination of economic disparity between nations (natural) and US legislation that motivates foreign people to break the law to enter the country (limited legal immigration AND amendment 14 of the US Constitution). I agree, there is nothing wrong with cheap labor. What is wrong, is motivating people to break the law, then using their illegal status as a way to stifle the natural behavior of labor markets.
- mediaman 16y ago
  This is the exact argument an economist uses to argue for unregulated immigration. More conventionally, it is also used in support of free trade, even when a foreign country subsidizes their exports: it is functionally identical to productivity improvements in the importing nation.
- anamax 16y ago
  > The question is: why does it make economic sense to refuse a cheap labor force? Cheap to whom? Cheap to the employer does not mean cheap to society. Note that we have "cheap" people, they're just in the wrong places. And yes, I've done farm labor for a couple of seasons. My father worked seasons in different parts of the country.
amalcon 16y ago
I would say the first step is immigration reform: remove the incentive to come here illegally, they'll just do it legally, and the problem goes away.
huherto 16y ago
I recent the comment. Mexico is not a failed state. Sure, we have many problems. We have a democracy; it is imperfect but still a democracy, we have a GDP per capita of $14,495 which is typical of a country with our level of development. What we have is a very violent war between rival gangs. We have some of those gangs challenging the state. It is a very serious situation, but it is not that of a failed state. We are still working, traveling and going to school. If you run a red light, you will get fined. All of the government structures are working. Do not minimize the problem, it is very serious, and we are suffering. Yet don't make it seem as it everything is in chaos. I just googled this index of failed states. I have not knowledge of the political bias of the publisher. http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/06/21/2010_failed_states_index_interactive_map_and_rankings http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/06/21/2010_failed...
- roboneal 16y ago
  "Failed state" in the past tense may be harsh, but "failing state" seems appropriate. I'm finding it hard to distinguish Mexico 2010 from Iraq 2003. Gun battles in broad daylight, murdered political candidates, rampant corruption, beheadings...
  - herdrick 16y ago
    It's nothing like that. Even the corruption isn't so bad and seems to be improving.
    - roboneal 16y ago
      I'm not even trying here... So these beheadings never happened? http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1839576,00.html http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1839576,00.htm... http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=359559&CategoryId=14091 http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=359559&Categor... http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-violence-20100616,0,1704070.story http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-v... Mass Grave in Silver Mine http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/23/AR2010062305176.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06... Corruption? "Mexican state security minister can't trust her own police" http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-bautista-20100627,0,1441936.story?track=rss http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-b... Mexican Governor Candidate Murdered http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/29/world/americas/29mexico.html?src=me http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/29/world/americas/29mexico.ht...

vinhboy 16y ago

Do you think farmers can afford to hire workers at higher rates?

thesethings 16y ago

From my experience (read on), jobs illegal immigrants have get paid at least minimum wage (Not that this is livable). Most illegal immigrants get a social security number through underground document-makers. They give that number to the employer (who knows it's fake, but acts otherwise). I've befriended many Mexican immigrants, illegal and legal, and have even gone to a house that makes these documents. (It was surprisingly low-cost. ) Now this doesn't speak to your other point, about whether a farmhand job is livable for anybody. But my main point is: it's probably a legit job that withholds taxes and everything. There is a large set of jobs that has a high-turnover rate for everybody who works in them. Overnight cleaning crews in offices, table bussers, farmhands... This turnover rate is high for everybody, legal and illegal, who works there. My guess is that the employers assume anybody who works there will leave soon, and it's not worth thoroughly vetting whether the ss# belongs to a dead guy. As for my opinion on all this... I'm still working it out. I'm also biased, have lots of Mexican family on this of the border, and am admittedly sentimental about it. Ideally we can first focus on making any job livable, and THEN worry about who gets to have it.

ryanelkins 16y ago

Seriously? A border fence? I didn't think many people actually took that serious as a deterrent. Have you seen the Penn and Teller show where they pay (legally questionable) immigrants to build a length of fence using the same specs as the border fence - then pay them to go over, under, and through it? I just remember they were on the other side pretty quick. Then there's the cost to build and maintain... it's just such a ridiculous idea to me.

yummyfajitas 16y ago
Do you really believe that securing a border is impossible? Or are you simply suggesting that the US military is less capable of securing a border than the Indian, Chinese, Israeli or South Korean military?
- ryanelkins 16y ago
  There is a difference between "securing a border" and "building a 2,000 mile long fence". A fence by itself does pretty much nothing but slow people down slightly. I made no suggestions about the US military's capabilities - although the fact that this discussion exists seems to make some implications.
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    Many people make the argument that it's impossible to secure our border, I thought you were doing the same. My mistake, I misinterpreted your post. If you were simply discussing the tactic of building a fence with no other guard measures, I agree with you; a fence is not sufficient.
    - jbooth 16y ago
      Ok, so how many guard measures do we need to be sufficient? How many deployed forces, with what orders in regards to violence? How much will it cost? Are we suspending Habeus Corpus for this?

jamn 16y ago

This is something that actually has puzzled me for a while, so if someone can provide me with some economics insight I'd appreciate it. The question is: why does it make economic sense to refuse a cheap labor force? If suddenly some aliens came to the US and said "we have figured out a way to get free food. have all the food you need here", would there be complaints about the number of farmers that are losing their jobs or unfairly competing against free products? Theoretically, it seems to me that the positive aggregate effect on consumers is larger than the negative (and very regrettable) effect on the farmers. For this reason, wouldn't it make more sense to have the consumers compensate the farmers by helping them pay for their education, etc, so that they can find new jobs? This seems to me as the efficient way to think about immigration. Where I come from (Mexico, of all places), I hear people sometimes complain about how computers shouldn't be allowed on certain government offices, since they will leave thousands of people without a job. I'd say that, if they can find a different job, then we can all be better off by finding cheaper production factors.

clammer 16y ago
I think that's a really good point, to which I think the answer is that the cheap labor force isn't naturally occurring. It's caused be the combination of economic disparity between nations (natural) and US legislation that motivates foreign people to break the law to enter the country (limited legal immigration AND amendment 14 of the US Constitution). I agree, there is nothing wrong with cheap labor. What is wrong, is motivating people to break the law, then using their illegal status as a way to stifle the natural behavior of labor markets.
mediaman 16y ago
This is the exact argument an economist uses to argue for unregulated immigration. More conventionally, it is also used in support of free trade, even when a foreign country subsidizes their exports: it is functionally identical to productivity improvements in the importing nation.
anamax 16y ago
> The question is: why does it make economic sense to refuse a cheap labor force? Cheap to whom? Cheap to the employer does not mean cheap to society. Note that we have "cheap" people, they're just in the wrong places. And yes, I've done farm labor for a couple of seasons. My father worked seasons in different parts of the country.

amalcon 16y ago

I would say the first step is immigration reform: remove the incentive to come here illegally, they'll just do it legally, and the problem goes away.

huherto 16y ago

I recent the comment. Mexico is not a failed state. Sure, we have many problems. We have a democracy; it is imperfect but still a democracy, we have a GDP per capita of $14,495 which is typical of a country with our level of development. What we have is a very violent war between rival gangs. We have some of those gangs challenging the state. It is a very serious situation, but it is not that of a failed state. We are still working, traveling and going to school. If you run a red light, you will get fined. All of the government structures are working. Do not minimize the problem, it is very serious, and we are suffering. Yet don't make it seem as it everything is in chaos. I just googled this index of failed states. I have not knowledge of the political bias of the publisher. http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/06/21/2010_failed_states_index_interactive_map_and_rankings http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/06/21/2010_failed...

roboneal 16y ago
"Failed state" in the past tense may be harsh, but "failing state" seems appropriate. I'm finding it hard to distinguish Mexico 2010 from Iraq 2003. Gun battles in broad daylight, murdered political candidates, rampant corruption, beheadings...
- herdrick 16y ago
  It's nothing like that. Even the corruption isn't so bad and seems to be improving.
  - roboneal 16y ago
    I'm not even trying here... So these beheadings never happened? http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1839576,00.html http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1839576,00.htm... http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=359559&CategoryId=14091 http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=359559&Categor... http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-violence-20100616,0,1704070.story http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-v... Mass Grave in Silver Mine http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/23/AR2010062305176.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06... Corruption? "Mexican state security minister can't trust her own police" http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-bautista-20100627,0,1441936.story?track=rss http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-b... Mexican Governor Candidate Murdered http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/29/world/americas/29mexico.html?src=me http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/29/world/americas/29mexico.ht...