5 ms·

I think one of the biggest challenges in moving from 1v1 to 5v5 is the substantially increased possibility of creative strategies. In a 1v1, there isn't that mu

I think one of the biggest challenges in moving from 1v1 to 5v5 is the substantially increased possibility of creative strategies. In a 1v1, there isn't that much room for innovation, making it a perfect target for existing AI techniques, which are good at learning what is "in the data" but have not yet been shown to be capable of thinking outside the box. In contrast, in a 5v5 matchup, a much wider range of strategies is available. I'd imagine that in this more flexible setting, AIs would be highly vulnerable to cheese strategies, or in general strategies they have never seen before. Furthermore, if there are any exploitable quirks in the AI (which seems quite likely, given the established lack of robustness of neural nets), I have no doubt that clever human players will be quick to exploit them. On the flip side, I think that makes 5v5 a far more challenging and interesting goal that would be very exciting if achieved! As a side note: I think the most impressive aspect of this AI is that it was trained without watching any human games. In contrast, AlphaGo was bootstrapped from a bunch of existing human games, which I imagine was crucial to its training. Being able to learn how to fake out the human player without having seen this action before is quite impressive.

electrograv 9y ago
Without even getting into misconceptions and inaccuracies here, the following quotes illustrate "the moving goalposts of AI": The almost-metaphysical "mystique" that many attribute (perhaps subconsciously) to human intelligence vs machine intelligence: > AI techniques, which are good at learning what is "in the data" but have not yet been shown to be capable of thinking outside the box > AIs would be highly vulnerable > exploitable quirks in the AI > established lack of robustness of neural nets > clever human players will be quick to exploit them Of course, it is important to identify pitfalls, so as to address them. But it is sad that no matter how good AI gets, there will always be pessimistic reasoning downplaying its success. With every step forward, there are the predictions of impassible future failures -- "just around the corner"! Due to this mystical "cleverness" attributed exclusively to humans, I'm not convinced a majority of humans will ever allow machines to be considered 'intelligent', no matter how far the technology advances. I'd love to be proven wrong, though.
- flunhat 9y ago
  I will consider an A.I. truly intelligent when it passes the Turing test with flying colors. And as a native English speaker, too (not just barely passing by posing as a 13 year old Ukrainian boy with a poor grasp of English, which is what happened last time). As far I know, no A.I. developed has ever met this bar. It seems that the nuances, inconsistencies, and total freedom of language make it a totally different kind of problem to solve than a simple game-playing algorithm. Or maybe I'm wrong and getting an A.I. to pass the Turing test is just another kind of game-playing algorithm with different parameters. At any rate, we're quite a way off.
  - electrograv 9y ago
    Again, you're moving the goalposts forward whenever AI surpasses them. This time you move the goalposts forward by requiring a proof of native English proficiency. Next time it will be something else; that goalpost will be achieved, and when it is, you will move the goalpost forward yet again. Perhaps you'll require the Turing+++ test be conducted with audio rather than text. Then it will be video. Then a physical android. Then it will need to prove itself better than the human in an IQ test. Then it will need to pass various real world success tests, because IQ tests are too synthetic. But those won't be good enough either, so it will have to live 80+ years as a human in the real world without being discovered. But that's not enough, because maybe its life was too easy -- the real human experience is characterized by pain and suffering as well as joy, so we'll also need it to somehow prove its experience is more real. And on and on and on. It's always something else -- with every step forward, the success will be dismissed and the goalpost will move forward. I should say this isn't intrinsically a bad thing, since it pushes us to advance the field of AI more and more. But IMO this is too often promoted as a pessimistic criticism of the AI field, rather than an encouraging push of optimism. Why must this notion of binary "true intelligence" exist, anyway? Can't we see that intelligence is a spectrum (most likely with multiple dimensions of proficiency), and AI is continuously advancing upwards?
    - flunhat 9y ago
      The Turing test is hardly a new measure - it's been around for ~70 years and hasn't been passed yet. But otherwise I agree with what you said - this is just my personal measure of when we'll be in society-shaking territory.

electrograv 9y ago

Without even getting into misconceptions and inaccuracies here, the following quotes illustrate "the moving goalposts of AI": The almost-metaphysical "mystique" that many attribute (perhaps subconsciously) to human intelligence vs machine intelligence: > AI techniques, which are good at learning what is "in the data" but have not yet been shown to be capable of thinking outside the box > AIs would be highly vulnerable > exploitable quirks in the AI > established lack of robustness of neural nets > clever human players will be quick to exploit them Of course, it is important to identify pitfalls, so as to address them. But it is sad that no matter how good AI gets, there will always be pessimistic reasoning downplaying its success. With every step forward, there are the predictions of impassible future failures -- "just around the corner"! Due to this mystical "cleverness" attributed exclusively to humans, I'm not convinced a majority of humans will ever allow machines to be considered 'intelligent', no matter how far the technology advances. I'd love to be proven wrong, though.

flunhat 9y ago
I will consider an A.I. truly intelligent when it passes the Turing test with flying colors. And as a native English speaker, too (not just barely passing by posing as a 13 year old Ukrainian boy with a poor grasp of English, which is what happened last time). As far I know, no A.I. developed has ever met this bar. It seems that the nuances, inconsistencies, and total freedom of language make it a totally different kind of problem to solve than a simple game-playing algorithm. Or maybe I'm wrong and getting an A.I. to pass the Turing test is just another kind of game-playing algorithm with different parameters. At any rate, we're quite a way off.
- electrograv 9y ago
  Again, you're moving the goalposts forward whenever AI surpasses them. This time you move the goalposts forward by requiring a proof of native English proficiency. Next time it will be something else; that goalpost will be achieved, and when it is, you will move the goalpost forward yet again. Perhaps you'll require the Turing+++ test be conducted with audio rather than text. Then it will be video. Then a physical android. Then it will need to prove itself better than the human in an IQ test. Then it will need to pass various real world success tests, because IQ tests are too synthetic. But those won't be good enough either, so it will have to live 80+ years as a human in the real world without being discovered. But that's not enough, because maybe its life was too easy -- the real human experience is characterized by pain and suffering as well as joy, so we'll also need it to somehow prove its experience is more real. And on and on and on. It's always something else -- with every step forward, the success will be dismissed and the goalpost will move forward. I should say this isn't intrinsically a bad thing, since it pushes us to advance the field of AI more and more. But IMO this is too often promoted as a pessimistic criticism of the AI field, rather than an encouraging push of optimism. Why must this notion of binary "true intelligence" exist, anyway? Can't we see that intelligence is a spectrum (most likely with multiple dimensions of proficiency), and AI is continuously advancing upwards?
  - flunhat 9y ago
    The Turing test is hardly a new measure - it's been around for ~70 years and hasn't been passed yet. But otherwise I agree with what you said - this is just my personal measure of when we'll be in society-shaking territory.