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I Fell Victim to a $1,500 Used Camera Lens Scam on Amazon

• cycomachead 9y ago
  Very weird -- earlier this year the FedEx guy delivered some photo mattes to the apartment across the street. The vendor wouldn't refund me because it showed as delivered, but Amazon told me (and refunded the $40) specifically under their A-Z program. Eventually a few weeks later, the box turned up because I guess someone decided to actually check the address and re-deliver it.
• davidu 9y ago
  It seems like the Amazon reps weren't paying attention to the detail, or the seller was also supplying fraudulent evidence of delivery. This blog post will likely get it resolved for the buyer, though it shouldn't have to be this way.
  • mikeash 9y ago
    Wouldn't surprise me. Superficial reading is an ongoing danger of text-based support. The other day, my wife used Amazon's chat support to ask a question about what would happen if she canceled her free Prime trial. The rep said: give me two minutes to look into this. And then came back with: I've canceled your Prime as you requested, thanks, gtfo. She managed to unwind this after a great deal of effort, but man.
    • derekp7 9y ago
      Reminds me of when I called my cell phone carrier, to have an unused line dropped from my account. Had to give them my phone number, and the number for the line to remove. "Ok, hold on one second..." [click]. Phone didn't work any more -- they removed the wrong line. Had to go to a land line, and hang on hold for 30 minutes to get someone to start restoring my account (and to make sure I didn't lose my grandfathered data plan).
      • matwood 9y ago
        > Phone didn't work any more -- they removed the wrong line. Had to go to a land line, and hang on hold for 30 minutes to get someone to start restoring my account Haha. I have a similar story where I needed help from Comcast. I was on the my cell with them and they wanted to verify it was me, and hung up to call my home number. Well, I only have a home line for a fax machine and do not have a normal phone in the house. I heard the fax ring a few times so I called back. It took over a 1/2 hour to convince them to use a different authentication method. They kept insisting to call my home phone. Sigh.
      • tehwebguy 9y ago
        Exact same thing happened to me. They couldn't fix it until Monday though (it was Friday and was porting a number).
  • ajross 9y ago
    I'm more sympathetic to Amazon here than most. Scams are hard to detect. They set up a shipping confirmation process that's worked fine for them for almost two decades now. It has a hole (it only checks the town and has no closed loop to verify that the shipper shipped to the right address in that town), but none of the existing employees actually know that it has a hole. They get a report about a missing shipment, check their process, and it says it was received. Case closed. This is like trying to report a web site vulnerability to a help desk employee. It doesn't work. You have to escalate until you find someone who understands the root issue, and escalation is messy (and involves blog posts like these).
    • codegeek 9y ago
      I dont get why you are being sympathetic towards Amazon. They delivered the package to a WRONG address and then closed the case just because it was delivered to the SAME town ? Don't you see an issue with Amazon's system here ? This is just incompetence and nothing else. I love amazon but this particular case is just incompetence on Amazon's part after the fraud happened.
    • rhizome 9y ago
      It has a hole (it only checks the town and has no closed loop to verify that the shipper shipped to the right address in that town), but none of the existing employees actually know that it has a hole. This is an entirely predictable outcome, especially for the brains at Amazon. This was implemented according to specifications and designs that involved several people, meaning that it was a conscious and deliberate decision to only check the city, which is obviously imprecise. This imprecision does not even require computers to recognize it.
      • ajross 9y ago
        > This is an entirely predictable outcome Said someone about every security bug ever. This is the shipping fraud equivalent of "this never would have happened if you used rust". It's not helpful.
        • 9y ago
  • Sleeep 9y ago
    So, in my experience (FWIW) every Amazon customer service rep I've ever dealt with has extremely poor grasp of the English language and don't know how to veer off script (so to speak). If you say "the shipping weight does not make sense," they ignore that because their script/training only says "check the tracking number." It's like talking to a poorly programmed bot.
• dingaling 9y ago
  Recap as I understand it, since the blog post isn't 0. Buyer purchased item from third-party seller on Amazon 1. Seller picked a name and address in buyer's town, from an obituary, and sent parcel containing two baking mats thereto ( instead of camera lens ) 2. Occupant of that address signed for it believing it to be for the deceased relative 3. USPS updated status to 'delivered' with signature and address recorded 4. However the proof of delivery shows the address from (1) and not the buyer's address 5. Buyer repeatedly appealed on the basis of (4) but Amazon only check that the parcel was signed-for IN THE SAME TOWN. Therefore requests for refunds or further action were denied. Very clever seller, knows the system well. I wonder how many items he had to sell before striking it rich with a $1500 "lens".
  • garyfirestorm 9y ago
    also its funny that even though the mail was sent to Jeff himself, no one in Amazon cared enough to verify the delivery address?
    • GVIrish 9y ago
      A couple of possibilities: *The customer service reps have to answer a huge volume of cases and they really don't take time to read the email *It's ingrained into the customer service reps to follow policy to a T. So if it was signed for, deny. *They're using some sort of automated system that shows whether something was signed for. If 'yes', deny.
      • georgemcbay 9y ago
        I still use Amazon because of the convenience and because the vast majority of the time I never have to deal with their customer service, but in the rare instances I do I've noticed that over the past few years Amazon has become very Google-like in terms of putting everything behind systems that are either automated or may as well be (strict script-following offshore customer service). There used to be useful links ("Where's My Stuff?") directly attached to your order for inquiring about status if things are late, etc, with just a click or two... this all kinda still exists but has been buried so far up into the user interface that there's no way it isn't intentional obfuscation to try to limit any kind of meaningful interaction between the customer and anyone alive within Amazon, with a further barrier between the front-line alive people who are clearly all offshored and anyone in the US.
• deft 9y ago
  These amazon emails literally look like automatic mails with a small custom message on top. He stated multiple times that what they said was WRONG yet no one bothered to listen to that part. If I was the author or if this ever happens to me, I'll go directly to disputing the charge.
  • ceejayoz 9y ago
    As the "owner" of thousands of dollars worth of Kindle books, I'm terrified of disputing an Amazon charge.
    • problems 9y ago
      Yeah, I would highly recommend you download all of those and run them through Calibre with the DRM stripping plug in as soon as possible.
    • kuschku 9y ago
      If you are in the EU, you don't have to worry - you are the owner. If Amazon bans you from accessing your Kindle books, they're committing a crime. In a recent court case https://openjur.de/u/879923.html https://openjur.de/u/879923.html this exact topic was discussed in the EU. If your account gets banned, you might want to take a lawyer and cite this case - OLG Köln Az 6 U 90/15.
  • dz1 9y ago
    happened with paypal too for me. looks like all these systems are wired the same. 1. ordered an item off http://henpilab.com/graco-pack-n-play-on-the-go-playard-go-gree/ http://henpilab.com/graco-pack-n-play-on-the-go-playard-go-g... using paypal 2. no shipping for a week. emailed seller. 3. updated shipping info 4. track shipping says delivered to wrong address 5. open dispute with paypal saying delivered to wrong address and seller unresponsive. 6. paypal immediately closes dispute saying we are not able to resolve on your behalf since it shows shipment is already delivered.
    • stordoff 9y ago
• _Codemonkeyism 9y ago
  The only way I've got problems solved with Amazon is going to the police and let them sort it out. Worked every time. Amazon was in now way responsive or helpful before I've got the police involved.
  • bitexploder 9y ago
    Or small claims court. That will get their attention quickly. This is the perfect place for that, though I guess, since this is USPS/Mail fraud that works. Small claims court has appeal because they absolutely can't ignore you, whereas even with a police report they can. (edit: perfect place for police involvement, since an actual mail fraud type crime was comitted, but also a great place for small claims court. I am just thinking police aren't going to have much recourse since whoever did this is probably very far away. Small claims court you can do it right to amazon for failure to deliver the goods bought, and maybe find some language in the A-to-z guarantee to hold them accountable?)
    • DaiPlusPlus 9y ago
      As someone who recently went through small-claims as a plaintiff, it is time-consuming and the process takes months to complete[0] - don't forget to be prepared to lose a half-day (or longer) to attend your hearing in court too, and you can't add "equivalent wages for time spent in court for this hearing" to your damages claim) - so for many people a claim valued under a $1000 or so simply isn't worth pursuing. If I could reform small-claims actions, I'd make it permissible to submit evidence online/electronically with a deposition and let the judges/mediators review it in their own time, have them call us up by phone or send emails if they have any questions and only call us into a physical court-hearing if absolutely necessary. [0]: At the start of this year I was victim to a breach of contract causing me a 5-figure loss. I filed my claim paperwork in April and got a response in June with my court hearing in August - then another week for a judgement - now I've got to wait 30 days before I can begin to attempt to collect on that judgement, which can take 180 days or more depending on how the defendant appeals or chooses to delay things. That's a possible ~540 days after the violation before we reach settlement. In the OP's case, is that really worth $1500? (Most states allow you to collect a nominal interest on a judgement too, California is 10% APR, for example - better than a savings account, worse than the S&P 500).
• rgbrenner 9y ago
  filing the chargeback is a good idea... but also, the sender made a critical mistake sending it usps.. that makes it mail fraud. Talk to the US Postal Inspection Service, it's a branch of law enforcement, and I'm sure they would be very interested with all of the evidence youve collected. They can cross state lines and arrest the sender. https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/ https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/
  • ChrisBland 9y ago
    This! They have just committed mail fraud and since they thought they were hidden behind amazon, all it takes is one postal inspector to request the banking details of the payout and now there is a person on the hook. You've already done the legwork. Take this to the proper authorities.
    • esMazer 9y ago
      is it mail fraud because they used a bogus return address?
      • ianferrel 9y ago
        No, it's mail fraud because they sent a fake package to the wrong address and used the shipping confirmation to defraud someone out of $1500.
  • deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  • sylvinus 9y ago
    Slightly off-topic, but for a good bit of fun on the USPIS, you should watch the TV Show "The Detour" ;-)
  • wfunction 9y ago
    Would they pursue something like counterfeit software licenses or gift cards mailed via USPS, if the scale isn't as large (like <$100)? Asking since it's happened to me on smaller scales before, but the amount is smaller and I'm not sure how to prove I received whatever I received...
• toast0 9y ago
  It won't get your money back, but it is worthwhile to file a fraud complaint with the USPS as well. Mail fraud for $1500 is a big deal to sweep under the rug with a charge back.
  • DaiPlusPlus 9y ago
    I don't see why he wouldn't get a credit-card chargeback authorized - he has clear evidence of fraud on the party of the seller, and evidence of the middle-man's (Amazon's) unwillingness to investigate further. As Amazon is accepting the credit-card payment they will eat the chargeback - if they do ever dispute this then elevate it to a small-claims court case and the judge will easily side with the customer.
    • toast0 9y ago
      He should certainly do a charge back to get his money back, but also file a report with the USPS.
    • simcop2387 9y ago
      One potential problem with that is that Amazon can retaliate by closing the users's account if they didn't agree with the charge-back even if they're unsuccessful at fighting it. That can be really difficult to deal with if you're also using AWS for hosting or other things.
      • LeifCarrotson 9y ago
        Uh... isn't it obvious that you should never use your personal shopping/Prime account for business-critical services?
        • mark-r 9y ago
          Yes, that would be common sense. The problem with common sense is that it's not very common.
      • hellofunk 9y ago
• caffodian 9y ago
  a similar scam has been going on for a while, with at least video games, board games, and bike gear, from what I've seen on Amazon Canada. Third party sellers with a "real" looking name will list an item at a ridiculous discount off retail. If you buy it, you get a Chinese international tracking number. This takes forever to "arrive" and it turns out Amazon only really cares that the tracking number shows to Canada. I'm not sure what is actually in the package, since it's not possible to figure out more than just the city it went to. Eventually, Amazon will refund you, but it's a bit annoying. It's pretty easy to spot once you get bit the first time, but you'll usually see the third party seller spike to several hundred bad reviews before the entire situation gets resolved. This seems like Amazon CSR just failed to read the writer's complaints correctly. It should eventually get fixed, because it often does get fixed, even for hundreds of customers at a time.
  • Balvarez 9y ago
    Just had this happen to me with a video game. Luckily amazon just gave me a refund
  • jonathonf 9y ago
    This happens with books too, though in these cases it can be more difficult to spot beforehand (e.g. 20-30% off a cover price isn't too unusual). However, if the seller has _every_ book listed for the same price, something is very obviously wrong. From those I've seen, it looks as though old and/or inactive accounts have been compromised. These have a decent history, possibly even a positive feedback rating, but no activity in (e.g.) the past 12 months.
    • caffodian 9y ago
      on .ca they seem to be newer accounts, often "FIRSTNAME LASTNAME" "located" in the US somewhere. Totally forgot the _every_ book thing - they also sometimes have items that aren't actually released yet, but are available for immediate shipping, which I guess gets them bumped up a bit.
• softwarefounder 9y ago
  I like how this list is zero-indexed.
  • ada1981 9y ago
    I like that you like that.
    • ada1981 9y ago
      Downvoted for expressing how I feel!
  • santoshalper 9y ago
    We're not animals.
  • celticninja 9y ago
    It is a standard way of doing things on HN and until I became a software developer I really didn't understand why.
    • deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  • callmeed 9y ago
    looking at you, Lua ...
    • zionic 9y ago
      Don't forget about CRAPLAB
      • deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      • markrages 9y ago
        That feeling when porting from MATLAB to Python and all the "+1"s in array index expressions go away. And the obscure cornercase bug disappears as well.
• eutropia 9y ago
  Maybe this sort of fraud becomes impossible if we had cryptographic ledger based delivery confirmation systems (keyed to sender, recipient, delivery address). Edit: Because apparently technological solutions aren't to be discussed if they involve recent, trendy tech?
  • mi100hael 9y ago
    lol blockchain. It'd only work if they wrote the APIs in Rust and the management UI was isomorphic React.
    • deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    • qaq 9y ago
      no noSQL? it's not webscale
  • ceejayoz 9y ago
    Ah, yes, the blockchain, notoriously impervious to fraud.
  • DaiPlusPlus 9y ago
    It doesn't need that at all - just upgrade the USPS (and UPS and FedEx) "signed for" systems to also include a photograph of the recipient for high-value items, and the lat/long coordinates of the hand-off - that would immediately show when items were mis-delivered and as a bonus, get a photo for possible police investigations. Or better yet: make it possible for those "shipping status" pages to show the full recipient address (e.g. by entering your own address first, maybe with a texting service using your USPS-registered phone number?)
    • gehwartzen 9y ago
      Sometimes if I get a high value package from an unverified source I ask for signature confirmation, wait for the first attempted delivery and pick it up at the PO. I then record myself asking for the package and opening it in front of the postal official. It's a pain and takes a bit longer but should something happen at least there is a bit of additional evidence. But it's really just a crude workaround for an inherently trust based system. All that is ever tracked is the package which either the sender or receiver can easily manipulate.
• ada1981 9y ago
  So glad that Jeff's assistant isn't even able to read an email. This sucks man. Appreciate you taking the time to document it and share it.
  • morley 9y ago
    I'm guessing too many people know about the "email jeff@amazon.com" hack, and that they now forward everything from there to customer service.
    • yahna 9y ago
      Time to start mailing s-team members instead
• poke111 9y ago
  I don't get why he kept hammering on them for the fact that it was delivered to the wrong address. The bigger problem here, and a better basis for a refund, is the fact that they sent the wrong item. If they sent the wrong item to the correct address it should be eligible, right?
  • leakybit 9y ago
    That would of been easier since the seller must accept returns within 30 days of purchase. This is also how buyer-side fraud works, say you got the wrong item, and return a block of dry ice of the same weight. By the time the sellers gets it, the box will be empty and you can just blame it on the shipping courier, since it had xx pounds when they weighted it.
  • frandroid 9y ago
    Amazon probably has a process for "wrong item at right address", but since this is "wrong item at wrong address", they don't have a process for it. That's why this seller did this; they probably made a mistake once and discovered the loophole, and now they're driving a truck through it.
• mikeash 9y ago
  I'm wondering more and more why Amazon hosts third-party sellers at all. They dilute the Amazon brand to a tremendous degree. It used to be that buying from Amazon meant a certain level of quality and service. Now there are really two Amazons: the old one, and a new one that's basically a shitty version of eBay. I have to go out of my way to avoid these crappy third-party sellers when I'm searching for stuff on Amazon. It's not a nice experience to go searching for a product and have to step through a minefield of "cheap" items that take two months to arrive, or have outrageous shipping fees, or are outright scams. It is really worth it for Amazon to have them? I struggle to see how.
  • mars4rp 9y ago
    I used to sell some items on Amazon and paying them %15 - %25 of sell price. I think this is where Amazon makes its major money. I was costing Amazon very little, unlike Prime and free one day shipping, 2 hours shipping, etc. I think Amazon lose money on lots of its own services to drive customers in, and force 3rd party sellers to use its service for a nice commission.
  • jacquesm 9y ago
    Is there a way to just turn third party offers off?
    • mikeash 9y ago
      I don't think so. Filtering for Prime or Free Shipping by Amazon helps a lot though. You still get third-party sellers, but they're at least fulfilled by Amazon so the chances of trouble are quite a bit lower.
      • jacquesm 9y ago
        Oh that's clever, thank you for that idea. If I ever go back to ordering stuff on Amazon I'll definitely use it. I got burned twice with one order from two different sellers and I'm kind of done with them for a while (both out of print biology texts).
      • 9y ago
• beejiu 9y ago
  I don't know if it is the same in the US, but in the UK you would basically tell the credit card company this is their problem.
• Havoc 9y ago
  1500 bucks purchase 2nd hand from a seller with 1 review? 10/10 bravery
  • giarc 9y ago
    I would say the description makes it appear to be an actual photographer, although that's very easily duplicated from somewhere else. Also, Amazon is usually very good about protecting buyers from scams.
    • Havoc 9y ago
      >Also, Amazon is usually very good about protecting buyers from scams. Retrospectively...sometimes. Don't get me wrong I like them (average like a package every 48 hrs) but I have fairly limited confidence in their ability to protect people. Especially with the inventory co-mingling fiasco.
  • cr0sh 9y ago
    The only correct way would have been for the buyer to suggest using escrow to the seller. Since it was a scam, the seller would have backed out quickly. For $1500, it's going to be via escrow.com with a credit card. It's the only sane way, even if it is completely legit. Protects the seller, too (because such scams can happen in the other direction as well).
• vgprice 9y ago
  I don't even buy anything that is not sold via Prime. I assume anything non-prime is of the lowest possible quality or a scam. For some reason I feel comfortable with prime thinking that the items have had some sort of quality approval. (at least getting my item as described and expected.)
  • wizzard 9y ago
    I think you mean "sold by Amazon"? Third parties can take advantage of prime shipping, and people have been scammed via that method as well.
  • Stratoscope 9y ago
    Prime doesn't mean it's sold by Amazon. It can be a third party seller using Fulled by Amazon services. And in that case, the item may not even come from the specific seller you're buying from, because of inventory commingling - they put all of the sellers' inventories into one big bin and send you any of them. What you may be looking for is "Ships from and sold by Amazon.com". But there have been reports that even those products may be commingled with third-party inventory. (I don't have any personal knowledge on that one way or the other.)
    • djrogers 9y ago
      > the item may not even come from the specific seller you're buying from, because of inventory commingling - they put all of the sellers' inventories into one big bin and send you any of them. Yeah, but in that case you're at least very likely to be getting the item you ordered. I've got the same policy for ordering stuff from Amazon - if it's prime and does from their warehouse I'll trust it. Haven't been burned yet, and the occasional mistake is always cleared up, usually with a 1 month credit to my prime subscription.
      • mark-r 9y ago
        The biggest issue in that case is fake merchandise. Fakes can get shipped from the warehouse just as easily as the real thing.
• pjc50 9y ago
  As the author says, this is what the credit card dispute system ought to sort out.
  • ceejayoz 9y ago
    Not if you've got EC2 instances or Kindle books.
    • pjc50 9y ago
      You're saying that disputing with Amazon will pull all your kindle books? I don't think that would fly in countries with consumer rights. Bear in mind this is also a Marketplace seller and not the real Amazon.
      • ceejayoz 9y ago
        Steam happily bans accounts that make chargebacks, so it's apparently legal (or at least get-away-with-it-able) in the US. I'm really not willing to take that risk with Amazon.
        • Simon_says 9y ago
          You know, I think I just decided never to use Steam again. Thanks.
      • kuschku 9y ago
        It doesn't in the EU. If Amazon wants to ban you, they can ban you from buying new content or using online interaction functionality, but all existing content has to stay accessible. In a recent court case https://openjur.de/u/879923.html https://openjur.de/u/879923.html this exact topic was discussed in the EU. It turns out, Amazon can not do this. Neither can Steam, Sony or Microsoft. The court ruled that Amazon has to unban the account of the user, and give him access to all media he ever purchased again. If your account gets banned, you might want to take a lawyer and cite this case - OLG Köln Az 6 U 90/15.
      • deleted 9y ago
• tarr11 9y ago
  I never purchase an expensive item (>$25 or so) unless it is sold by Amazon. Right now, I've been looking at buying a Nintendo Switch, which only is available from third party sellers. No thanks, I'll wait.
• soyiuz 9y ago
  The A-Z guarantee is actually pretty biased towards the costumer. Something went wrong here obviously, but in part it is a side effect of too much information. There was no need to go visit your neighbors--once the wrong address is confirmed, A-Z should come into effect. Get someone on the phone if you can. The larger problem is the integrity of the package. For example, as a seller, I've had multiple chargebacks from customers who claimed that the package they received was empty (and A-Z always ruled in their favor). I've also had customers "return" items that were not at all the same as the original purchase. In once case, the returned materials were clearly counterfeit (where I sold the originals)! A-Z ruled in customer's favor in each case. I've since stopped selling on Amazon due to prevalent fraud. The package is pretty well tracked, how do we make sure what goes into the box corresponds to the sale or refund?
  • megiddo 9y ago
    Escrow
  • ryan-c 9y ago
    > In once case, the returned materials were clearly counterfeit (where I sold the originals)! Do you use FBA? If so, do you allow inventory intermingling on your items?
• shiftpgdn 9y ago
  This is the poison in Amazon's well. The average layman has very little grasp of sold & shipped by amazon vs amazon marketplace. Amazon needs to tighten the clamps on all of these awful third party sellers before they become a casualty like ebay. Anecdotally my father purchased a projector recently and the seller tried the "I can't ship it unless you make payment on my offsite merchant page because Amazon is holding me hostage" scam. My father remarkably recognized this as fraud and reported it to Amazon. He said they were less than helpful in getting a refund to his credit card so he could go make a purchase from a legitimate merchant. They made him wait out the full 30 days it could have possibly taken to ship before they were willing to work with him.
• pdq 9y ago
  The correct solution to this is a 3rd party escrow service for these expensive items prone to fraud. Amazon could physically validate the lens with pictures/weight, and verify they shipped it directly. This blocks fraud by both the customer and the seller/shipper.
  • cr0sh 9y ago
    Exactly this. If I'm buying something off of Ebay from a private seller (particularly used gear and such) that is going to cost more than I feel I can possibly comfortably lose ($200.00 is the upper end there), then I ask the seller first (before doing a buy-it-now or bidding) if they'll do escrow (usually via escrow.com, since that used to be an ebay thing). If they won't, I don't bid or buy - because it is likely a scam of some sort. Usually, I explain that the protection is both for seller and buyer, and that I will pay all fees involved (so they aren't out anything). If they still balk, then forget it. Not worth it, no way. I've never used Amazon Marketplace to buy used goods or anything like that (everything I buy from Amazon is prime stuff; rarely do I do third-party seller unless its from a place that has a real website too - and even then I exercise caution). For large cash transactions via Craigslist? Take a friend with a gun, in case things don't go the way they should. My last purchase from CL was a car, and I swear I thought at one point I was going to be rolled for cash I didn't have with me. It was in the vehicle my friend was driving; I was riding with the owner in the vehicle being sold - we were trying to find a place to transfer the title - I know that doesn't sound like it should be difficult, but the story is much more complex. In the end everything went fine, the guy got the cash, I got the car, and we parted amicably.
• redleggedfrog 9y ago
  "...trustworthy as Amazon." ?! Amazon has their money, and most everyone's money. There is little incentive here to do the right thing.
• deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
• dangerboysteve 9y ago
  As the other commentators on the posting pointed out. Stop pissing around with Amazon customer service (who are usually excellent) and perform a credit card charge back.
• ctingom 9y ago
  Someone hacked my Seller Central account a few months back. It took 8 weeks to sort it out with Amazon. In the meantime, they completely suspended my entire Amazon account. What a nightmare.
• dclowd9901 9y ago
  What? As someone who's sold on Amazon, all the buyer had to do was _cough_ and they were given a full refund with absolutely no obligation to ship the item back. Something's not being told here.
  • paulgb 9y ago
    Out of curiosity, have you sold items in the 1000+ price range?
• randyrand 9y ago
  I guess this is why Ebay always sides with the buyer. Scuks for sellers though.
• gambiting 9y ago
  It's very unfortunate, when the same thing happened to me amazon refunded me straight away, they acknowledged the person who signed the package was not me and I had my money back straight away.
• maxk42 9y ago
  In 2016 I made a couple hundred (yes hundred) purchases on Amazon. Of those, more than a dozen failed to ever arrive. All of the ones that failed were from third-party sellers. Amazon Customer Service is very willing to work with you if you call directly. (I've also had a $1500 item fail to arrive.) I wouldn't trust their email support though. Long story short: Pick up the phone.
  • k3oni 9y ago
    Read first, comment later! He called initially and then decided to start emailing so he can add he's own extra details to the emails and have a paper trail.
  • gommm 9y ago
    I was going to say this. I bought a treadmill on Amazon, it arrived without the console. Dealing with customer support by email was an exercise in frustration with agents clearly not actually reading my emails and sending out form responses. Once I called, everything was solved very quickly.
• noncoml 9y ago
  I hope you get enough social media visibility to get your money back.
• sjoerger 9y ago
  Be wary of Amazon closing your account due to the credit card charge back dispute. I had Amazon close my account several years ago due to a credit card number change right when I made a purchase. It was hell getting them to re-open my account and take my payment for the product I ordered and received.
  • jeremy7600 9y ago
    They let you change payment methods now after you've ordered something, as well as have a number of different cards in their system at a time. Not sure this is a problem anymore.
  • kuschku 9y ago
    I had a similar issue (account didn't authorize a SEPA ELV transfer, so it bounced), and I just had to send the payment + 6,50€ to amazon via SEPA wire transfer, and they reopened it.
• ucaetano 9y ago
  Email jeff@amazon.com. I've done it a few times before when Amazon really messed up. I got a call back in less than 24 hours and my problem was solved. [Edit: read the article again, it seems he did :) ]
  • pacificmint 9y ago
    If you read the article, he did, someone got back to him on his behalf and it did not resolve his problem.
• ransom1538 9y ago
  Why do people do mail fraud? While mail fraud crimes often involve the use of the United States Postal Service, or USPS, you can also commit the crime when you use any interstate carrier, such as FedEx, UPS, or other delivery services. Mail fraud is super easy to prove [prints on box, cameras at fedex offices, credit cards used for materials, amazon accounts, logged ips, bank accounts involved, federal authority] and carries ridiculous sentencing: 20 years. THIS is a bad plan for $1500. Most likely this person DID THIS MORE THAN ONCE so they could face like 10 counts - it is 20 years per count. Not to mention people doing the investigation are federal officers - they are on point. With 2nd murder you at least get parole and probably wont do 20 years or charged with multiple counts. mail fraud = bad times. http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-penalties/federal/Federal-mail-fraud.htm http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-penalties/federal...
  • giarc 9y ago
    It's probably hard to track the seller. They can use a fake email, illegally obtained credit card to sign up, PO box or just some random address, drop off packages to FedEx drop boxes or just drop ship an item. They may never even touch the packages.
    • ransom1538 9y ago
      Uh. No. If I were a federal officer I would just contact amazon and find out where the money went. Paypal or Bank account - game over. Contact whatever bank he picks it up from get security camera details, address info, on and on. I would also grab all the ips, entered in info and the prints from the box. I bet he would be in my office by lunch. Plea dealed to 5 years by monday.
      • inetknght 9y ago
        Put your money where your mouth is. Go provide your legal services to article's author. I expect to see an article on Monday, from you, which bemoans exactly how easy it is to track thieves like this. Show us the face of the accused, too.
• kylehotchkiss 9y ago
  For the amount of business Amazon gives USPS/UPS/FedEx, you would think their APIs could show Amazon that a package with a given tracking number matches the address for the order.
• losteverything 9y ago
  It was not signed for. There are many dispositions once usps presses delivered. One is "to an individual at address" that is what i interpret - not signed. Some other dispositions: at or by box, other or garage, office, (there are many more) So the usps carrier pressed 4 - individual at address. He she handed it to someone. Also, the exact gps coordinate of the initial scan is recorded. So the carrier scans the amazon box... That time&location is address knowing. In fact, the usps can turn on a feature that tells the carrier "you are more than 200(some distance) away from the address" this is used primarily when sunday newbies are delivering. It sounds like amazon does not receive all the data collected from the carriers handheld. Also, there can be multiple dispositions for a parcel. Like "damaged" and delivered.
• deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
• yahna 9y ago
  I would reply to Jeff again with the particularly unhelpful email.
• awinder 9y ago
  I feel like either amazon, or the market, is missing an opportunity when I read stuff like this. Amazon could be: 1. Gathering intelligence about the person making the claim from public sources (twitter, LinkedIn, blogs, etc.) 2. Mashing that against past purchase history (inside amazon or through browser fingerprinting across a wider pool, though they are amazon and should be pretty wide on their own) 3. Ferreting out when high-trust customers are making claims against more shaky merchants Claims like this should be the backbone of a fraud management platform. They can take high-quality customers getting screwed over and not only rectify the problem but also spare their other buyers from the embarrassment & fraud
• amorphid 9y ago
  Amazon seriously pisses me off these days. Here's an example: - search Amazon.com for "1 tb usb flash drive" - the first hit (for me) is a fraudulent drive for $26.99 USD [1] - there's no mechanism that I can find to report the drive as fraudulent, suspicious, or spam As far as I'm concerned, Amazon is the new Best Buy. I go there to find something I want, and then buy it somewhere else (NewEgg!) [1] https://www.amazon.com/Flash-Drive-Memory-Stick-Storage/dp/B01KOFOLLO https://www.amazon.com/Flash-Drive-Memory-Stick-Storage/dp/B...
• martin-adams 9y ago
  How would this have played out if it was sent to the correct address, signed for but just had baking mats in there instead of the Lens? Would Amazon side with the seller still? If not, why didn't the buyer just claim the items in the package was not as described?
• iamleppert 9y ago
  It's a prime example of what happens when you deal with a large company with reps who are not empowered to think for themselves, and often times are incapable of doing anything other than following a very rigid process, and have extreme apathy. I had a similar experience with NewEgg. In these cases it is sometimes helpful to use LinkedIn and contact people high-up in the company (Directors and Sr. Managers). Send them an inMail, it goes directly to their personal e-mail in many cases. In several instances, contact like this via LinkedIn has helped me. Other than that, don't waste your time and just file a charge-back.
• chaoticmass 9y ago
  I don't get how this could happen. I used to sell on eBay and PayPal was very strict about only shipping items to the address given to me on the PayPal payment. A way I'd been scammed as a seller was when the buyer asked me to ship an item to their work address. I complied, and then the buyer did a paypal dispute saying they never received the item, and I automatically lost the dispute because I didn't ship to the address on the payment. I just don't see how Amazon isn't siding with the customer in this case.
• thezach 9y ago
  I would open a case with the USPS Inspector General https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/contactUs/filecomplaint.aspx https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/contactUs/filecomplaint.a... This seems like it would be considered mail fraud, and as UPSP was used they have jurisdiction to investigate it. I'm not sure how serious they will take the case however.
• thezach 9y ago
  If you are the person this happened to file a complaint with the United States Postal Service office of the Inspector General. As they used USPS this would actually be mail fraud something the law enforcement arm of the postal service has jurisdiction over. You can file a complaint at https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/contactUs/filecomplaint.aspx https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/contactUs/filecomplaint.a... or by calling 1-800-ASK-USPS
• sharjeel 9y ago
  Wow. Close call. I was about to get the same lens from the same seller about a month ago but at the very last moment I thought I can wait for a few weeks to see some more reviews of the seller come in. I was thinking about getting defective product shipped etc but never thought I could have faced such a sophisticated scam.
• wolfd 9y ago
  I had something similar happen about a year ago and it was a really bad time. I purchased some hard drives from a third-party seller (claimed as new, seemed reasonable in price, but huge mistake in hindsight, I know), and they arrived fine. The problem was, the hard drives were not what I ordered, and were almost certainly used (scratched up a lot). I requested a return, and had the seller provide me a shipping label, I sent them back, and never got my money back. The tracking showed that the package was delivered, but because the seller had provided me a label that didn't require a signature, Amazon said they wouldn't give me my money back, as the seller said they hadn't received the item. At this point, I left the seller a review saying what had happened to me, and a few days later, I visited the seller's page, and noticed that my review was gone. Not only does Amazon provide really shoddy support for people that have been scammed, they actually help protect the scammers in a way, by allowing sellers to remove a couple bad reviews from their page every month.
  • fnj 9y ago
    Didn't you bother to run SMART and see what the power-on time was? Just for curiosity if nothing else.
• ufukbay 9y ago
  This is one of the main reasons I avoid buying anything from Marketplace sellers on Amazon. One can argue if it is right or wrong but you can't expect the same level of service which you are used from Amazon for Marketplace sellers. Couple times I ordered something without double checking that it is sold and delivered by Amazon and had nothing but trouble. I’m sure there are honest Marketplace sellers as well but I just can’t be bothered. I hope that the OP gets his money back.
• payne92 9y ago
  Contact USPS immediately. Using the US mail system to commit fraud is a crime, and the post office has postal inspectors that investigate exactly these kinds of cases.
• payne92 9y ago
  Contact USPS immediately. Using the US mail system to commit fraud is a crime, and the post office has postal inspectors that investigate exactly these kinds of cases.
• megablast 9y ago
  > The description of the used lens indicated the lens is in excellent condition and the price seemed very good… maybe too good If the lens sell for $1,500, and he got it for $1,490, why does he say he thinks the price may have been too good? It seems like it would be an accurate price for it.
• ashbrahma 9y ago
  Amazon solves for these types of problems in other markets (India) through Cash on Delivery.
• luckydude 9y ago
  I got burned in a different way. I have the mark 1 version of the Canon 400mm DO lens. The mark 2 came out, to rave reviews, I wanted one, got a little toasted one night and said "screw it, I'm gonna get one". It's $6700 lens. I clicked around and found one cheaper, it was $6500 so I got that one. Imagine my joy (jk) when I open it up and found that Amazon/Adorama thought it was OK to sell me the mark 1 version of lens for $200 less than the much better mark 2. That's nuts, the mark 1 lens was selling used for about $4000 before the mark 2 came out, when the mark 2 came out, the used value of the mark 1 dropped to about $2000. So it's pretty lame of Amazon/Adorama to put the old lens up there for $200 less when it should have been $3000-$4000 less. And pretty stupid of me to not notice the version. I had to threaten Adorama with a media campaign before they took the lens back. Left a sour taste in my mouth and I buy all my stuff from B&H now.
• davewasthere 9y ago
  Amazon need to have a "This is a scam" checkbox for resolution. Something where instead of the automated process, an actual human with a brain looks at the evidence. A one-minute read would show that this is fraud and the customer should be refunded immediately.
• Hnrobert42 9y ago
  Enter binding arbitration.
• 8note 9y ago
  oh hey, I work on a team that should prevent this kind of thing. This should be fun to fix. [I'm not allowed to say more on the topic, nor do I speak for Amazon, as per the current Amazon guidelines on what we're allowed to talk about on social media. We're hiring though, and it's a fun adversarial engineering job]
  • CamperBob2 9y ago
    I'd hesitate to blame you if you're on the engineering side. This doesn't sound like a technical problem, necessarily, but rather a policy-level problem. The whole sordid affair seems to have taken place because the reps either didn't comprehend the issue or weren't empowered to do anything about it. At a minimum, Bezos needs to have a come-to-Jeff meeting with the people answering email in his name. It shouldn't be necessary for a customer to start a Twitter debacle or a social-media shitshow in order to receive good customer service.
• seshagiric 9y ago
  I generally reach out to third party sellers before placing an order. Only if they respond, do I place my order. In general it's better to avoid them though. Another scam and actually more hurting to buyer is the sale of stolen goods (again camera items like in the article).
• Hollow3d 9y ago
  Long time lurker here. Amazon has let a lot of shady business in lately. Abuses on all sides. Even my local USPS abuses the system for the 2 day delivery. (They marked a packages as incorrect address, and than, not available to sign... I called them, the woman said the were too heavy, so I now get it on day 3..). Now I know about the free months of prime, but I would have to get USPS to confess to Amazon what they told me. And I'm not as dedicated as the author. And the preditory tactics they allow sellers to implement are crazy. I paid to return a dead on arrival ipod, and I had to send multiple emails to confirm I was getting my money back. (Seller stated they needed RMA or no refund, seller never provided RMA after 3 emails. Never even sent an RMA after all that, Amazon just ended agreeing to refund after multiple calls). Seller is still active with same terrible return policy. Good article, I feel less crazy now. Hopefully more of these stories circulate.
  • gergles 9y ago
    Calling your postmaster about the USPS will get the problem fixed. I had a similar problem where my carrier refused to do Sunday deliveries – they'd always use the disposition of "nobody available to accept package". I called the postmaster and complained, and she said they'd look into it. Two days later, she called back and explained that they had pulled scan records for the packages going to my apartment building and that all the Sunday packages were scanned as "nobody available" while the packages were still at the post office (!). Apparently, the USPS has GPS attached to all their scan records, so she was easily able to tell that there was chicanery and to deal with it. I've not had a problem with Sunday deliveries since.
• MRSallee 9y ago
  I don't understand why the scammer bothered to ship to an alternate address -- if Amazon is just confirming that the package was delivered and signed for, wouldn't that also occur if delivered to the buyer's address? The buyer would sign for the package before opening it and realizing the camera lens wasn't inside. (The weight difference could be made up with rocks.)
• benwilber0 9y ago
  about 3 months ago I bought some USB-C <-> USB-A [1] cables on Amazon. I plugged one into my MacBook and it immediately turned it off and banned it from the system. I started to smell electrical burning. I yanked the cord out of the wall and never touched it again. Threw away the whole pack. The cables were made in China and re-branded by a USA company. Don't buy cheap Chinese garbage electronics. [1] https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0161GVULY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0161GVULY/ref=oh_aui_deta...
• KiDD 9y ago
  Amazon Marketplace is full of garbage sellers...
• bayesian_horse 9y ago
  From my extremely limited understanding of legal matters, I'd say this should be a criminal fraud case. Maybe the police can get through the "wall" at Amazon.
• chrismealy 9y ago
  What's Amazon's cut of a $1500 third party sale?
• captaindiego 9y ago
  I've had a similar thing likely happen from about $100 of things off aliexpress. Air china handed off to the USPS and it showed up as delivered without me ever having signed for it. I argued with aliexpress, and they just saw air china had it marked as delivered and just closed the claim against me. If they can do this locally, they likely can pull this off from outside the US as well.
• ratsimihah 9y ago
  Thanks for putting that out here. Amazon shouldn't get away with their bots like that.
• rdl 9y ago
  If your credit card doesn't support a chargeback here you should sue the issuer or st least widely publicize them. Any reasonable issuer would support this chargeback, particularly with all the evidence you have provided. I am wary of buying things through amazon, even first party amazon.com LLC stuff, due to counterfeits and other scams. It is as bad as eBay.
• tdburn 9y ago
  Why did he even bother about the shipping address? He should have begun with reporting receiving the wrong item, that would have then lead to discussion about the shipping address and incorrect weight. Potentially
• noisy_boy 9y ago
  Item was supposed to be sent to address 'A'. Was accepted at address 'B'. This billboard-size neon-glowing discrepancy takes so little time/effort to spot that I'm incredulous that multiple customer "service" people in mentioned in the blog post didn't see it. It has to be impossible to miss this bloody obvious gap. Just how?
• celerrimus 9y ago
  In my opinion this makes amazon an accomplice of the theft, especially that they earned a commission from this operation. Hope that buyer will get help and get his money back.
• seshagiric 9y ago
  For those wondering how this scam happens, here is a live example: https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B002JCSV8U/ref=dp_olp_all_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=all https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B002JCSV8U/ref=dp_ol... Notice how the first item is listed at 1/4th price of other listings, and that seller is a 'just launched' third party. If you text or email asking them to confirm item is genuine and not stolen, you will not hear from them. If Amazon wanted they can detect and remove such listings (also good candidate for ML based fraud detection)
  • seshagiric 9y ago
    if Amazon could at least drop third party individual sellers or thoroughly vet them I'd assume it will reduce such scams considerably.
• gumby 9y ago
  For $1500 it's worth taking Amazon to small claims court. Not for the fraud -- that was the fraudster -- but for their refusal to to honor the terms of their guarantee.
• ScamAlert 9y ago
  test
• QuestionTopic 9y ago
  We're hearing the Complainer's version, and not Amazon's. Lady Justice carries a balancing scale, with both sides being weighed. Whenever I see blotted out information, I wonder why...., so let's look at the evidence carefully. Notice the ship to address on the Amazon invoice-- the green-blotted-out portion with the ship to address beginning with a 4 and then green-- possibly holding another 8 to 10 characters. Then look at the the USPS confirmation ship to address "Glenbrook Cir" with 13 characters and erased number preface. The number of characters in the Amazon invoice and USPS confirmation are probably different. Complainer claims Amazon did not "see" or refuse to acknowledge the incorrect ship-to-address. Difficult to believe. And according to Complainer's writing on Amazon's response, Amazon stated the ship-to-address is correct. If Complainer wants to make a better case, remove the blotting. The Courts will never allow for this type of deliberate blotting as evidence, and I don't think we should either. I've never had problems reaching Amazon support by phone or chat (my choice), and the delay is usually 30 seconds or less. An easy-to-understand scam as this would be critical to Amazon's business. Difficult to believe Amazon staff had trouble understanding Complainer's complaint. What I see so far is a Complainer who blots out unique identifying person or address information, and gives photos of various documents, which are partially related. Partial relationship, not total. Lady Justice's scale has two weigh pans. The Complainer's weigh pan already has some holes.