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Working in open office plans is simply awful. Personally I believe remote work, for any tech-enabled employer, makes the most sense. The impact on infrastruct
by seorphates 9y ago
Working in open office plans is simply awful.
Personally I believe remote work, for any tech-enabled employer, makes the most sense. The impact on infrastructure by removing commuting alone could maybe help save the planet. And our collective sanity.
Wouldn't it be nice to have ISPs that can provide an infrastructure that could actually support that? I think so.
The hideous effects of cluster-fucking hundreds of thousands of people daily just needs to stop. Tech companies are guilty. They're huge and, humbly opined, are idiots for making it worse and not really needing to. Top that off with an open floor destination and.. damn, work is beat.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- hota_mazi 9y agoNah, it's fine. If it gets noisy, put on headphones or go sit in a different place for a few hours. Individual offices can be awful and isolating. Cubes can be an acceptable compromise but it still kills a lot of spontaneous conversations. You gain a lot with open space plans: more interaction with coworkers, cultural gel and socializing. And of course, the company can cram more people in the same place.
- jansho 9y agoWell you can put a team in one room, and a kitchen to cater for several teams - like design studios actually. IMO that's the best balance, but maybe that's a bit luxurious, cattle pen-wise.
- stock_toaster 9y agoI strongly feel the best option (if remote work is not a possibility) is individual offices with team designated collaborative work areas. This allows people to quasi self organize, with the default option being that they have their own space.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- apr 9y agoYou are contradicting yourself. More interaction leads to more noise and now you are advising people to put headphones on or leave the place entirely. How are you supposed to culturally gel and socialize under such conditions?
- sidlls 9y agoAnd for those that find headphones distracting and for which there isn't a viable "somewhere else?" Such casual dismissal.
- georgemcbay 9y ago"Nah, it's fine." Yeah, I don't see the problem either. In fact, I don't understand why companies don't just install long airplane style seating rows in their open office plans and have everyone work from laptops literally on their laps... that way we'd be able to cram even more people in the same space, and just think about all the useful socializing and spontaneous conversations that would occur as co-workers were climbing over each other to head for the restrooms. /s (just in case)
- sitkack 9y agoJust use mothballed planes as offices. A steward could come down the isle every couple hours and give us snacks and drinks. When the build breaks, they can turn off the air as punishment. Hook them into some sort of huge ferris wheel, saves on space and keeps attrition low.
- dvhh 9y agoAnd have a mandatory seat belt rules, and disallow restroom 45 min after work begin and 45 before end of work time.
- inetknght 9y ago> If it gets noisy, put on headphones Headphones only go so far. If you don't have good headphones (or, gasp can't afford good headphones, or don't have the time or money to shop around for good headphones), then you end up with a band-aid that doesn't really work because... well noise bleed is real. You either still hear what's happening around you or the people around you can hear your music. So they talk louder, because they need to make sure they're heard by whoever they're talking to. They don't stop the distraction of someone walking by. They don't stop someone from trying to start a whimsical conversation just because they walked by you.
- majormajor 9y agoSadly, I'm still looking for headphones that can be comfortably worn over my ears + glasses for more than an hour at a time. In-ear ones have other comfort issues.
- beaconstudios 9y agoI have a set of Razer Krakens that are pretty comfortable even if I wear them all day, and I wear glasses.
- jamie_ca 9y agoI expect this will depend a lot on your frames - if the arms on your glasses are thick it'll be more inclined to squish into your head. That said I'm really happy with my Logitech G930s - I usually use them wired to keep the charge (the usb cord length is _very_ generous) but they're just fine wireless too, and do a good job staying put if I'm moving around a bit. My only complaint is that they seem to be sensitive to 2.4ghz interference, which can kick them off the wireless connection. Since there's no wired override (plugging in is purely for battery) this means plugging in can't save you. Once I switched my devices at home to prefer 5ghz wifi, it went from 5-10 times an hour at its worst to once or twice a month (and I can maybe blame that on the neighbours).
- hossbeast 9y agoLook up the Sennheiser Bluetooth ones.
- bartvk 9y agoYep, I also have this problem. The only (wired) headphones that are big enough to fully circumvent your ears and thus comfortably sit for an hour or more, is the Sennheiser HD 558. Unfortunately, it's wired. There doesn't seem to be a bluetooth alternative. The newer Sennheiser models like the 4.50 are not as big as the HD 558. There's a dongle-based wireless headphone, the Logitech G533 which is big enough. It's meant more for gaming, and looks like it. It may only work on Windows, though.
- kuschku 9y agoThat's some fine sarcasm you've got there. That said, there are apparently people defending this opinion.
- georgemcbay 9y agoAre you sure your parent post is sarcasm? The sad reality of the modern tech industry is that I actually think that is a serious response, though I wouldn't be surprised either way.
- sidlls 9y agoI wouldn't be so quick to think of it as sarcasm. "Ask IT for headphones" and "find a quiet spot in one of the lounges" are almost direct quotes from the CEO of the company I work for. In the few years I've been working here I have seen the CEO at his reserved seat in our open office area once, and the CFO twice. Not one other C-suite have I seen at their reserved seat in the open office area to do work.
- borplk 9y ago"Keep collaborating you peasants."
- pilsetnieks 9y agoYou should be more wary of Poe's law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law) in the future.
- WatchDog 9y agoAs someone who has never worked from a private office or classical cubicle I tend to agree, but maybe I just haven’t had a chance to experience the productivity explosion that comes with those options. I think open office is fine so long as the density is not too high. Ive seen conditions where you are shoulder to shoulder with your co-workers, which seems awful. I have always had around ~8 square meters of space in my open office layouts. I value being able to casually converse with my nearby colleagues.
- Spooky23 9y agoIMO it depends on the job. Open floor plans are good for ops roles and some front end roles where teams of people are engaged in substantially similar work driven, especially event driven work. Lower density low cubes are ok. Offices are great for managers, PMs or professionals like attorneys, engineers or accountants. From my perspective, remote works if the culture is friendly to remote or conditions like traffic make commuting a misery for everyone. As a manager of managers, we historically have had a lot of problems with remote employees compared with people in the office.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Hnrobert42 9y agoI don't want to gel or socialize with my colleagues. I want to work with them. If we become friends, we can socialize outside of work. I'm not paid to chitchat or stand around eating birthday cake. I don't need to love people to work with them. For the most part, even as a systems architect, I don't even need to talk to them. A few emails, echats, and meetings are sufficient. This may sound harsh, when I heard they were pulling down the cube walls, I threatened to walk. I got to keep my high walled cube, but everyone else was surprised one Monday with low walls. A week later, after the whole office rioted, everyone got their walls back. If you need/want company, go sit in a common area. But don't take away my isolation. And tell those kids to get the fuck off my lawn.
- vacri 9y ago> A few emails, echats, and meetings are sufficient. As a sysadmin, I overhear a ton of stuff that people don't put into chats. I like being in the office and being able to hear what people are talking about in the workplace; it helps me do my job better.
- danielharrison 9y agoSo I'm supposed to pack up my computer, a couple of monitors, my notebooks and stationary and move it all whenever the noise levels are distracting me from focussing? Sounds efficient.
- imron 9y ago> but it still kills a lot of spontaneous conversations. Yes, I think that's the point.
- Raynak 9y agoIf it gets noisy, put more noise into your ears? > more interaction with coworkers, cultural gel and socializing. Yeah, I like wasting time as much as anyone else. It's still bad. Good work interactions either happen better in offices, or are meetings.
- cdkee 9y agoI'm a Solutions Engineer and whenever I have to get on a sales call or demo at my desk it's a disaster - it's simply far too loud and too much background noise is heard on the call. This is just one more complaint in a long-list that I have with this arrangement. Makes me miss my cube!
- bamboozled 9y agoI work remotely too and I often think about how much this has reduced my environmental footprint. It would be interesting to see some figures on how much of a positive impact it has.
- fineline 9y agoI mostly work from my home, which is self-sufficient for water (rain tanks) and heating (firewood), produces its own electricity (solar), has its own septic, produces some of our fruit and veggies and all of our eggs, with virtually no food waste that is not fed to the animals and low amount of landfill waste (you really think about it when you take it to the tip yourself). I occasionally commute to the local coffee shop by bicycle, or drive to the beach, and work digital-nomad style on mobile internet. Then I jump on a plane to my employer's office every few weeks. I wonder how that stacks up?
- sitkack 9y agoDepending on how far you going (size of the aircraft and its occupancy) it is like driving all the way to your employer in a car that gets 2.4L/100Km [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_aircraft#1.2C000_nautical_miles_.281.2C900.C2.A0km.29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_aircraft#1.2C0...
- freehunter 9y agoI worry about how much it increases my environmental footprint. I have an entire house of climate control being used for the sake of one person. I have lights in the house being used for one person. Sure I don’t commute by car, but I’m willing to bet commercial HVAC systems are more efficient per person and commercial lighting systems are more efficient per person and all of the other things that go into an office are more efficient per person when they’re being shared by 100+ other people. I haven’t done any math on it, but it’s something I do worry about.
- blauditore 9y agoI totally see the issue with open offices, especially if they're densely populated. But I think home office has certain shortcomings as well: Communication quality is not as good over video or text chat as IRL, nuances are missed more easily and sharing a whiteboard is harder. In addition, I have the impression that some people slack off much more because they feel "unwatched".
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- notyourwork 9y agoIf employees are measured correctly, it is impossible to slack off. In engineering, measuring hours is silly, measuring output and throughput is what determines performance.
- TheSoftwareGuy 9y agoAnd what do you propose is the correct way of collecting these measurements?
- aswanson 9y agoResults. Delivery of requested work products on schedule with quality.
- jnbiche 9y ago> Results. Delivery of requested work products on schedule with quality. Because we all know that software estimation is a solved problem. Particularly with non-technical managers.
- Clubber 9y ago>Because we all know that software estimation is a solved problem. Particularly with non-technical managers. Oh wonderful. They don't do estimates at your company then? This was explained to me by one of my professors 20 years ago. There are two types of company mentalities: A: The high school mentality. You show up 8 to 5 but it doesn't really matter what gets done. B: The college mentality. You pass or fail based on how well you do on the test. Show up if you want, or don't. The way I see it, if your manager can't tell if you are productive, he or she has no business being a manager and they are the problem.
- matthewmacleod 9y agoNo, it’s not simple. I am awfully bored of these “everything is simple, open offices are uniformly awful, everybody should be remote” arguments. Yes - this works for some people, in some workplaces. In other cases, it doesn’t work. I’m fine with my open office space, and I prefer working from an office - which is a bike ride away and better equipped than I am. How about instead we accept that there are almost certainly trade-offs involved in these areas, and that maybe building an office space that works for everyone is important? Provide open office space for those who thrive in that environment. Make sure there are private areas for those who don’t. Establish a culture that supports remote workers, and encourages good behaviour in shared areas. That, if anything, is simpler.
- seorphates 9y agoIt's sort of telling how far out of my way you went to form an argument against something you manifested all by yourself. You're a bike ride away from the office that you prefer? Fantastic job of deflection. It's rather obvious that there are trade-offs, isn't it? It's pretty clear to me, at any rate, and there's nothing inherently wrong with providing an office. Shame on your words coming out of my mouth. In relation to the expense of providing "office space" for several hundred the cost of a fat pipe is pretty darn cheap, were that it existed. If you don't have the need to live where you work there are "simple" choices any given person can make that will make their lives easier, happier and, hopefully, more fruitful for both themselves and their employers. And besides, having worked in offices (real ones), cubicles (and half-ones), bullpens and open spaces (including fields) I feel I am more than qualified to provide my own opinion on the matter without implying that my "simple" opinion is somehow not compatible with your own. Open spaces suck to work in. It's that simple.
- salvar 9y agoFor you. I have a really long commute, and I can work from home if I'd like. I still prefer coming in to my open-plan office. I think his point was that it's not this simple for everyone, even if it is for you.
- matthewmacleod 9y ago
- hindsightbias 9y ago> remote work It doesn't help if you're in the Bay. Home, road, sewer, curb, sidewalk construction, 3 neighbors with leaf blowers regimens nearly ever day... And that's just this year.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- downrightmike 9y agoHave a kid or know someone who does? Get that kid to do the work at all 3 houses. That way only noise one at a time and probably after school 3-5pm-ish
- PhasmaFelis 9y agoOpen office plans are awful, but I hate remote work. It's nearly impossible for me to concentrate at home, and being able to get facetime with collaborators as and when it's needed is valuable.
- intoverflow2 9y agoSpeaking as a designer who works close with devs. I think a lot of people championing remote work who are remote workers themselves don't seem to realise how frustrating it is working with them. Fumbling around getting them on call every meeting, having to have them ramble on about something wasting peoples time if they misunderstand something because they're not in the room and we're all too polite to just tell them to shut up and move on, having to take special time out of my work to go on a 10 minute call that could be sorted in 20 seconds standing behind sometimes desks. It's a very engineer-centric idea that they can just solve everything remote but if you're building a product that relies on design and more human focused work it can be an absolute nightmare having to work with a remote engineer.
- tahw 9y agoInterrupting someone at their desk might take 20 seconds of your time, but it is easily a 10-minute interruption of their work.